Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Eldiran]

Personally I would go with Heavy Armor 25 on Bowser Fsmash like the Falcon Punch buff... and maybe lower Falcon Punch itself to Heavy Armor 20.

Also, it occured to me that a nice balancing tool we haven't yet used is Bone-specific invincibility. That kind of thing would go a low way on attacks like Ganondorf Ftilt or Bowser Ftilt -- making Ganon's leg invincible would be a more subtle change that would prevent the attack from being shieldgrabbed, as well as giving it more priority. I'm actually really wondering if that might not be better than the super armor.

But on a less critical note, you guys' character pages are awesome and excellently done. The site is looking very nice. I am very pumped for the release -- the test builds are great.

 

[PKNintendo]

25% on Bowser's Fsmash is far to much. I would say a more appropriate number in 13%.

 

[Thinkaman]

I absolutely agree with MrEh's assessment. Unfortunately it's nearing the second official release; I do hope they go with a quick transition into making Bowser's fsmash heavy armor like Snake's cypher, as it's a bit less ridiculous, but I wont hold my breath.

Edit: While I was in the shower, I realized Heavy Armor is the way to go for an additional reason; It completely fixes the Counter vs Fsmash interaction. Counter does something like x2 damage? Setting even a high Heavy Armor wont stop the x2 damage of the countered Fsmash, probably even if they are both staled out. I really like the idea D:

I will also be up this monday for lots of bbrawl. If you guys want to play me then, be in the chat on the BBrawl site <3

The counter interaction is already fixed. Or rather, I wrote the fix, tested it, and somehow didn't send it out in RC3. I guarantee it's going to be in the final release though.

Personally I would go with Heavy Armor 25 on Bowser Fsmash like the Falcon Punch buff... and maybe lower Falcon Punch itself to Heavy Armor 20.

Also, it occured to me that a nice balancing tool we haven't yet used is Bone-specific invincibility. That kind of thing would go a low way on attacks like Ganondorf Ftilt or Bowser Ftilt -- making Ganon's leg invincible would be a more subtle change that would prevent the attack from being shieldgrabbed, as well as giving it more priority. I'm actually really wondering if that might not be better than the super armor.

But on a less critical note, you guys' character pages are awesome and excellently done. The site is looking very nice. I am very pumped for the release -- the test builds are great.

Falcon Punch started at 20% internally and was found to be interrupted by some weak f-smashes that didn't seem like something on the caliber of Falcon Punch; it got moved to 27%, then settled to 25%.

25% on Bowser's Fsmash is far to much. I would say a more appropriate number in 13%.

Hmm? A Falcon u-tilt could hit out of that, lol.

 

[Intro1827]

So, I'm not sure if this was addressed already, but Spear Pillar without its lower path is pretty messed up. Once Dialga starts breaking the floor, not only is the fighting space reduced by 1/3rd, but it may also remove one of the ledges, which absolutely destroys characters like Olimar and Ivysaur, and Link to an extent. Actually, any character without great recovery is gimped too easily, because of a state similar to a perma-edgehog. I think that goes against the goal of fairness and balance

 

[camzy]

25% on Bowser's Fsmash is far to much. I would say a more appropriate number in 13%.

LOL someone hates Bowser...

It's an extremely slow but powerful SSmash. It should be at least 23 and probably pushing 30. Give it SA and nerf it a bit is an option too. 24 and SA would be a big boost to Bowser.

 

[PKNintendo]

Haha you guys are completely right. I was... theorycrafting, I forgot that a simple 2 consecutive hits can take him down.


And I love Bowser. Only heavyweight in Brawl that is actually cool. (besides wario)

 

[Lokee]

Also, it occured to me that a nice balancing tool we haven't yet used is Bone-specific invincibility. That kind of thing would go a low way on attacks like Ganondorf Ftilt or Bowser Ftilt -- making Ganon's leg invincible would be a more subtle change that would prevent the attack from being shieldgrabbed, as well as giving it more priority. I'm actually really wondering if that might not be better than the super armor.

I remember seeing something about this in a Melee topic. Basically it involved disabling a character's specific hurtbox(es) such in Peach's Upsmash (melee) during the move.

Id also think would be good (if we can do this) especially like you said in giving moves more priority without editing hitboxes. Pesonally I would add this to Ganon's leg during his Dtilt cause it just looks dumb getting grabbed by his toes wth!

 

[Eldiran]

Falcon Punch started at 20% internally and was found to be interrupted by some weak f-smashes that didn't seem like something on the caliber of Falcon Punch; it got moved to 27%, then settled to 25%.

Okay then. I can't really think of a weak smash that deals 20%, and it seems weird to me that Ike's forward smash can't knock him out of it, but if it underwent testing internally that's good enough for me.

@Lokee: yep, that's the exact same mechanic.

EDIT:
@Eyada: I suppose you're right about that...

 

[Eyada]

Bone-specific invincibility sounds awfully close to outright hurtbox editing, which is something that should be avoided.

Making Ganon completely invincible during Wizard Kick is fine, because it is a discrete, easily processed change. ("You can't hit Ganon at all during Wiz Kick while the hitboxes are out? Ok. Sounds good. Will Shield/Spotdodge/whatever instead, then punish.")

Making parts of his leg invincible during, say, D-Tilt is bad, because it is not easily internalized, it is not discrete, and it heavily affects spacing, a subconscious activity that is difficult to adjust. ("You can't hit his leg? Like, the whole leg, or just parts of it? How far up his leg is invincible then? ...*loads up the game, pauses during F-Tilt.* This far? No? This far then? Here? Just his one leg, or both? Well his legs kinda overlap. Is the one leg only invincible up to there, or are they both invincible? Huh, so how close to him do I need to be to Shieldgrab it now? *Tries to grab* Nope, must need to be closer. *grabs* Ok, there we go. Now how about punishing OoS with F-Tilt? F-Smash? Up-B OoS?", etc, etc.)

It just seems messy.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

The counter interaction is already fixed. Or rather, I wrote the fix, tested it, and somehow didn't send it out in RC3. I guarantee it's going to be in the final release though.

Well, the incentive to quickly change Bowser's Fsmash into heavy armor is more than just the counter interaction being fixed. It just seems a far more elegant change, as it can be silly to Fsmash through a pile of bom-ombs. I mean, the heavy armor could even be 30% and it would be an improvement over simply super armor.

The release is going to happen really soon, I know, but the transition between super and a high percent heavy armor is about functionally the same, with the latter just being more elegant without necessitating a separate code to fix some unforeseen issues with SA.

I would understand if you guys opted to stick with what you have, but at the same time I think Heavy Armor is just... better.

 

[Delta Z]

Whoa...uh...disregard.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Heavy armor is not really better; I can't say I'm a fan of heavy armor in general. With super armor, it's easy to predict how it's going to behave. With heavy armor, stuff comes into play that can require more effort to keep track of (including staleness); it's frustrating.

Internally, things are polished up just a bit more, and the game is "gold" so to speak. That is to say the actual game is finished which I'm sure makes the fact that it's not in your hands right now a tiny bit frustrating, but we have to finish other preparations. Expect the release within the week.

 

[Big O]

I think I found a change that slipped through the cracks. Samus's jab doesn't link even though it was supposed to be fixed. Also Charizard's jab doesn't link at high %'s since the second hit pushes them too far away.

I still think Wolf's side b canceling is a terrible idea and will be abused for camping and running the clock. Fox's isn't as bad but it should probably go as well. I know you guys are mostly finished but I really think those two buffs in particular need to be changed.

On the subject of last minute changes, I think Ike's Dsmash should get the old buff. I'm not going to go so far as to say he is bottom tier in this build, but I don't see any reason why that buff didn't make it to the final build. His Dsmash is a pretty bad move and the buff at least gave it a niche. He may be "fine" but I don't think it would hurt to give him back the improved Dsmash.

 

[Mit]

I think the jump canceling on the side-B's is a little more jarring with the earlier cancel window, actually.

To me, it looked more natural canceling later, and when I think about it, that should be less of a crazy buff. If they can only cancel later (for a small period), it still offers a brief window of opportunity to punish the move when used incorrectly or to just fly around and stall or whatever.

But yeah, those buffs are a little crazy. Wall jump isn't too bad, jumping is like whoah. Also, I thought Wolf's bounce cancel was a lot more natural, aside from the turbo jet boost into the air when canceled very early. I guess that was a pretty big game changer, though, and made up-B a rather major move for Wolf if people started using it a lot to punish from distances and cancel combo into other moves.

Meeh, I don't know. Just iffy on the side-B cancels as well.

 

[MrEh]

.. I haven't had problems with bowser's fsmash... with both Pikachu and Ike

Bowser's Fsmash is a relatively poor tool against Pikachu and Ike in the first place, so it's understandable that you don't think that the super armor is outrageous.

 

[Ussi]

Bowser's Fsmash is a relatively poor tool against Pikachu and Ike in the first place, so it's understandable that you don't think that the super armor is outrageous.

Well I did try using Sheik/Zelda but I'm not at a high level at them like Ike/Pikachu so I blamed that for getting hit by fsmashes a lot >___>;;

which characters are you proposing that Bowser's fsmash destroys?

 

[Fuujin]

Well I did try using Sheik/Zelda but I'm not at a high level at them like Ike/Pikachu so I blamed that for getting hit by fsmashes a lot >___>;;

which characters are you proposing that Bowser's fsmash destroys?

It tears through Zelda's smashes but it's not that bad...I don't think.
I've only played Bowser like twice.

 

[dragoncrescent]

Heavy armor is not really better; I can't say I'm a fan of heavy armor in general. With super armor, it's easy to predict how it's going to behave. With heavy armor, stuff comes into play that can require more effort to keep track of (including staleness); it's frustrating.

Internally, things are polished up just a bit more, and the game is "gold" so to speak. That is to say the actual game is finished which I'm sure makes the fact that it's not in your hands right now a tiny bit frustrating, but we have to finish other preparations. Expect the release within the week.

Awesome! Can't wait to try the finished version!

Sorry to ask, but I always thought the two were synonymous - heavy armor and super armor. Is there a difference?

 

[Ussi]

Awesome! Can't wait to try the finished version!

Sorry to ask, but I always thought the two were synonymous - heavy armor and super armor. Is there a difference?

Super armor means No matter what you cannot be hit out of the move. Heavy armor is when you have a certain amount of damage you can endure before you are knocked out of it. 25% heavy Armor means a move with 25% or more damage will knock you out of it.

With super armor you can take a warlock punch to the face and still be fine..

 

[ぱみゅ]

I've played some Bowsers on WiFi, and though I actually SUCK on it (I have almost no experience there), I had no trouble avoiding his Fsmash in most cases (the ones I got were actually my fault...).
If you bait it well, and punish it hard (it's not very difficult), there wouldn't be any problem at all.

 

[MrEh]

which characters are you proposing that Bowser's fsmash destroys?

Marth (Especially. Marth is completely reliant on spacing in order to make a lot of his moveset safe, which gives Bowser opportunities.)

Zelda (Same with Marth, just with no air game. And way more predictable.)

Snake (Ftilt)

MK (Ftilt)


These are the characters that Bowser's Fsmash was notably good against before. With the inclusion of super armor, it makes it much much easier to utilize it. There's just so much leeway that the Super Armor gives. Like, it's now viable against nearly every character that isn't grab oriented or campy, just because it plows right through their moves.

It's understandably hard to understand that Bowser's Fsmash is outragous, since the drawback on Bowser's fsmash really isn't abused by players who aren't really good with Bowser in the first place.

I've played some Bowsers on WiFi, and though I actually SUCK on it (I have almost no experience there), I had no trouble avoiding his Fsmash in most cases (the ones I got were actually my fault...).
If you bait it well, and punish it hard (it's not very difficult), there wouldn't be any problem at all.

Bolded.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Several things.

Charizard's jab 1 is the one that changed, not jab 2. In general, jab combos pushing people out at high% isn't an easily avoidable problem. Snake actually has that problem worse. We'll check out Samus's though.

To any Wolf who would honestly try running the clock with side-B... good luck.

Ike's dsmash change was pretty messed up in the first standard release. I'm already fairly sick of explaining it because I have had to explain this to Thinkaman at least 5 times when he randomly brings it up and has forgotten the previous conversation, but oh well. Ike's down smash has something like 3 different hitboxes. The first standard release only changed one of them. The one change it did implement was incorrectly documented and did something other than what the documentation said (which explains why it was jarring to some people). I don't know how such a simple thing as lowering an angle got messed up so badly, but it did, and I noticed how totally messed up this change was when converting to .pacs. The old change just has to be thrown out; it's very, very poorly made and has basically nothing that can be salvaged from it. So, if we wanted to buff Ike's down smash, which just doesn't seem necessary at this time to me, we'd have to make a totally new direction on it because the old stuff is useless.

Heavy armor is what Snake has on his up special. It only eats hits that do X% damage or less. Super armor eats all hits regardless of how powerful they are. Both are penetrated by certain special effects (for instance, banana peels can trip you out of an armored state, Sing still puts you to sleep if armored, etc.), and of course you can be grabbed out of any sort of armor.

As a matter of principle, WiFi isn't nearly so bad as to completely change the ability to hit or not with a move as slow as Bowser forward smash. You can't just say "WiFi means nothing at all counts and it's like not playing at all"; you have to take WiFi with a grain of salt, but it's not completely invalid.

Before I go on, I will say that we tweaked the armor window on Bowser's fsmash in final tweaking. It's currently set at frame 5 of the post-charge animation which is the frame Bowser begins to shift his weight to lunge forward and also the frame his mouth begins to open. In the test builds, it was on the first frame of the post-charge animation so this is 4 frames slower.

Now just think about it. If Bowser does not charge fsmash at all, he gets super armor out on frame 16. To compare, Wario's fsmash uncharged has armor starting on frame 7. Bowser's forward smash has the following significant advantages:

-he reels back
-it hits non-trivially harder (Wario's fsmash isn't weak though)
-his super armor has a much longer duration (Bowser gets 15 frames of super armor; Wario only gets 4).

Of course, Wario has the advantage of hitting much sooner after his armor goes up (hitboxes go active on frame 8 uncharged, only 1 frame later) while Bowser has to wait a while yet (his doesn't hit until the sluggish frame 26 uncharged, a whole 10 frames later). If both try to hold a charge and time the super armor with charge release, Wario has a 1 frame advantage over Bowser in terms of when that armor goes active.

Wario's forward smash is nowhere close to broken. Does it even make sense for Bowser's to be broken? You list Meta Knight and Snake; both are hard to believe. Snake is zoning you in the first place with things like grenades, and he can easily ftilt Bowser out of fsmashes if he happens to be close. Meta Knight has the same ftilt situation, even better really. If Meta Knight does maximum speed ftilts, the third hit of his ftilt combo comes out on frame 9. Bowser isn't armored until frame 16 so even if he's ridiculously sloppy on his inputs and starts frame or two after Bowser he'll get that very long range poke on top of Bowser before Bowser's armor even goes live (there's no way the reel back is enough to avoid the entire ftilt combo if Meta Knight was expecting to hit at all). If he just does ftilt 1 at the same time Bowser starts fsmash and whiffs the ftilt, he actually can completely recover in time to spotdodge fsmash (the timing is tight there though, though plenty comfortable to just shield and punish the fact that Bowser's fsmash isn't safe on block).

I don't deny that this super armor is a very useful tool for Bowser, but broken? I can't imagine it at all; we're talking about a move that uncharged isn't getting armor until frame 16 and isn't hitting until frame 26. That is pretty sluggish. For reference, Ike's forward smash uncharged hits on frame 31, and Ike has the advantage of a much faster hit after charge release than Bowser and significantly more range to boot (Ike only has to wait until frame 7 after charge release to hit, instead of frame 15 or something like that for Bowser). I'd be happy to be proven wrong; feel free to abuse Bowser, prove him to be the best character in the game, or whatever. I just think I'm pretty reasonable in not expecting this to happen and for Bowser's forward smash to pan out just fine.

 

[MrEh]

You list Meta Knight and Snake; both are hard to believe. Snake is zoning you in the first place with things like grenades, and he can easily ftilt Bowser out of fsmashes if he happens to be close.

Obviously Snake will be camping you with grenades. I'm talking about when there is only a small bit of distance between Bowser and Snake. Snake probably will throw out a spaced Ftilt and this is where the Fsmash will win. However, if Snake is right next to Bowser, then obviously the Fsmash will lose because the drawback can't be utilized. (he'll just be hit by that frame 3 knee of doom) Still, UpB OoS beats non-spaced attacks anyway, as long as you predict the Ftilt is coming and shield beforehand. (Which you should, because it's Snake. If Snake is in Bowser's face, you really should either shield or roll away. There's no other realistic option.)

Meta Knight has the same ftilt situation, even better really. If Meta Knight does maximum speed ftilts, the third hit of his ftilt combo comes out on frame 9.

If MK is spacing Ftilts, Bowser's Fsmash generally wins assuming both players swing at around the exact same time. This is the usual scenario, since using the Fsmash drawback is based on prediction most of the time versus reaction.

When Bowser's Fsmash hitbox comes out isn't as imporant as when the drawback comes out. Again, assuming both players swing at around the same time, Bowser's Fsmash drawback usually lasts long enough to dodge and then punish the lag after MK's ftilt.

frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out
11-40 cooldown

Assuming it's used correctly, Bowser's Fsamsh will hit in the cooldown of the move. This is how the Fsmash works. Even if it be Snake's Ftilt, Marth's Fsmash, or whatever.

I can't imagine it at all; we're talking about a move that uncharged isn't getting armor until frame 16 and isn't hitting until frame 26. That is pretty sluggish. For reference, Ike's forward smash uncharged hits on frame 31, and Ike has the advantage of a much faster hit after charge release than Bowser and significantly more range to boot (Ike only has to wait until frame 7 after charge release to hit, instead of frame 15 or something like that for Bowser).

This is completely understandable. This is the impression that most people get from Bowser's Fsmash. It's something that is extremely difficult to explain in words, but it actually works. I know, sounds stupid. It's certainly not proving my argument in any way by repeatedly insisting that it works without actual proof.

Again, how fast the hitbox comes out (from a charge or not) isn't that important. What matters is that the drawback comes out near instantly. Bowser's Fsmash is slow, but if you dodge something with the drawback, there's usually always enough time to punish whiffed attacks. Of course, this is how it functioned in regular Brawl. The Super Armor just gives his Fsmash the ability to plow through things without using the drawback.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong; feel free to abuse Bowser, prove him to be the best character in the game, or whatever.

I do no think that Bowser is the best character in the game. My argument from the begining was that I believe Bowser was already up to standards with the rest of the cast, and the super armor was unnecessary on a move that already had an extreme drawback.

I've already had loads of fun abusing the drawback on Bowser's Fsmash. (oh believe me, it's wicked fun) I just think it's unecessary for the balance of the character.

I just think I'm pretty reasonable in not expecting this to happen and for Bowser's forward smash to pan out just fine.

It's reasonable to leave the super armor in because it's not like anyone will complain about it in the first place, since no one really uses Bowser in the first place. lol

But seriously, I'm not going to be super anal about this since you did tweak the super armor window. (unsure if it was because of my complaining or your own deductions, but either way, this is a plus) In all fairness, it's useless for me to keep complaining about something when you did tweak it. So I'll reserve further judgement until I play the next build.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser's F-smash is totally fine.

It's powershieldable on reaction. The armor frames on the move don't change that. It's your fault if you don't learn the matchup and get hit by this move.

Is the change unnecessary? Probably. Does it make Bowser good? No.

Either way it's a fun trick that I think deserves to stay in this release.

 

[MrEh]

It's powershieldable on reaction.

You don't just walk up to someone and Fsmash. Of course it's going to be shielded. You do it when you predict a spaced swing.

Does it make Bowser good? No.

No it doesn't. Damage buffs and removal of chaingrabs and 0-deaths makes Bowser good. Which has already happened.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thanks for telling me the obvious.

The point is it relies on predicting a mistake, so it's really not a big deal.

And before you tell me I don't understand what prediction is, I will destroy you with my Ganon. And then I'll go back to complaining he still sucks.

 

[MrEh]

Thanks for telling me the obvious.

It's powershieldable on reaction.

Same to you.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Trust me anyway, I abuse leanback ALL THE TIME. It's one of my favorite mindgames for that matter, since I have really good spatial awareness and precise knowledge of how leanback works in this game.

Mario does it better on his F-smash for the record, and Ganon has leanback shenanigans on his really powerful F-smash as well.

Bowser's F-smash really isn't a big deal, with or without super armor.

Now for something different, I'm not a fan of Bowser's new D-throw, because if you guess wrong, I don't find it very safe to whiff stuff.

Like in vBrawl, the old D-throw, I've been doing shenanigans where I D-throw Snake, and if he airdodges, I can F-tilt him on reaction (possibly for high percent kills), and if he jumps, it's virtually safe to throw out F-airs.

I dunno about the new D-throw though, it seems like it's too much of a tight guessing game.

 

[Big O]

Several things.

Charizard's jab 1 is the one that changed, not jab 2. In general, jab combos pushing people out at high% isn't an easily avoidable problem. Snake actually has that problem worse. We'll check out Samus's though.

To any Wolf who would honestly try running the clock with side-B... good luck.

Ike's dsmash change was pretty messed up in the first standard release. I'm already fairly sick of explaining it because I have had to explain this to Thinkaman at least 5 times when he randomly brings it up and has forgotten the previous conversation, but oh well. Ike's down smash has something like 3 different hitboxes. The first standard release only changed one of them. The one change it did implement was incorrectly documented and did something other than what the documentation said (which explains why it was jarring to some people). I don't know how such a simple thing as lowering an angle got messed up so badly, but it did, and I noticed how totally messed up this change was when converting to .pacs. The old change just has to be thrown out; it's very, very poorly made and has basically nothing that can be salvaged from it. So, if we wanted to buff Ike's down smash, which just doesn't seem necessary at this time to me, we'd have to make a totally new direction on it because the old stuff is useless.

I didn't look at the technical changelist (seems like it was just added) so I didn't know it meant jab 1 linking into jab 2 for Charizard.

On Wolf's side b, I feel that if properly abused it becomes way too safe. While timing out someone like MK is probably not very realistic, I don't see how Ganon in particular is going to be able to handle it. I can see Wolf being able to spam lasers and side b to escape when he has a decent lead without much Ganon can do to stop it. He can side b over Ganon pretty safely from a full hop, especially on levels like FD or wifi training room. The fact that it is able to combo into a lot of stuff and tremendously boosts his recovery on top of that is a bit much. Wolf was already a solid character that was just held down by tons of random locks and abuses that don't exist anymore. This is too big a buff for a mid tier character, especially considering all the other buffs he has gotten.

I'm curious as to how the old Ike Dsmash was altered. I thought it was just changed to have a lower angle, but it seems there was some other change that was buggy. What exactly was the bug and how jarring was it? I don't remember it behaving oddly or anything. I'm sure I'm missing some part of the story, but I don't see how a lower angle would be a bad place to start. Ike is certainly not in the top third of the cast, so I can't see how the old Dsmash buff, whatever it was (it didn't make it safe or anything), would unbalance him or push him over the top.

 

[MrEh]

You can only Ftilt Snake (or any character for that matter) out of a Dthrow if they DI into you. Doesn't matter though, since even if they DI away you can resume chase. (Most of the time there's no real reason to throw at all in normal Brawl though. Especially if you're Bowser.)

I already expressed my idea about the Dthrow previously. Keep it the same as regular Brawl, but buff the damage. Simple.

 

[JOE!]

@ A2 saying people have better lean-back in their smashes than Bowser:

They dont dodge the space of AN ENTIRE BOWSER while leaning back, then hammer down for like 25% Minimum.

Only other two that are good with this are Yoshi and Charizard, both due to their stance (like bowser's) that makes them incredibly smaller whil rearing back

 

[A2ZOMG]

Technically only Bowser's head moves backwards, his foot however remains in the same position. So...the actual horizontal distance he covers on leanback is comparable to say Mario's F-tilt range, which isn't bad, but not really enough to justify how slow the move is...

And the release is slow as balls and telegraphed by Bowser's grunt.

Mario leans back like only slightly less compared to Bowser, and he'll do 20-21% with his F-smash and kill people at like 70-80%...and his F-smash is a fair bit less unsafe on block. And his release time is fairly quick at 10 frames. And it does just fine at punishing Snake's F-tilt and Metaknight's stuff. So basically Mario's F-smash can do a lot of the shenanigans Bowser's can, except it's a LOT faster.

And for the record, Mario's reverse F-smash does reach further than Bowser's F-smash.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

For those who like this kind of thing, I've been going through and putting up the technical changelist on each character page on the site. Here's a list of which ones are already up:

Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Link
Ganondorf
King Dedede
Fox
Falco
Captain Falcon
Marth
Ike
Ness
Mr. Game & Watch

These are a lot of work so I hope you enjoy them! I may update this post as I do more characters.

 

[Eldiran]

Nice work!

I don't see an angle change on Ganon's Wizard Foot... is that a mistake? I thought the angle needed to be lowered in order to allow grounding.

 

[JOE!]

also, I discovered last nite with Fujin that that shockwave does not exist with Bowser's Down B.

I landed it right next to shiek, as she was running at bowser, and NOTHING HAPPENED.

She was no invincible nor dodging, and she was on the ground. She WOULD have been hit by any shockwave move that landing down B provides, and would have been popped upwards slightly with 11% damage taken, but no...she ran right over the small shockwave animation without even taking damage...

 

[IrohDW]

AA, is the changelist you are making for the latest test release, or for the standard release that is about to be finished?

 

[Ussi]

Maybe the shockwave doesn't hit around bowser, just where he lands?

 

[JOE!]

It would have hit Shiek, she was literally right next to me when I landed (missed by a pixel, lol)

 

[Eyada]

I don't see why bothering to enhance Bowser Bomb's shockwave is even really worth the effort.

It seems that, most of the time, Bowser Bomb will have one of two outcomes:

1.) The opponent is hit outright during the descending part of Bowser Bomb. Since the opponent was hit and is now flying away, the shock wave is irrelevant.

2.) Bowser will be hit out of the descending part of Bowser Bomb due to the seemingly non-existent priority of the move. The shock wave never even happens.

Thus, the vast majority of the time, when not playing on WiFi (i.e., when it matters), the shock wave is irrelevant and shouldn't be hitting anyway.

The start up on the aerial version is painfully long, guaranteeing plenty of time to respond, and the priority is so absurdly bad that it is trivial to simply hit Bowser out of it, even for characters with generally low priority. (Are there any attacks that are out-prioritized by Bowser Bomb? It doesn't seem like it.) With even a rudimentary understanding of the match-up, it is really pretty trivial to get a free hit on Bowser any time he tries to aerial Bowser Bomb within attack range. Just hop up and smack him with an aerial; he can't mix-up the timing, so with a bit of practice it is easy to master the proper timing to hit him out of it, and the ridiculous start-up ensures easy reactions. This works even after he has started plummeting downwards due to the move's absurdly bad priority. And I'm not just theory-crafting here, I do it all the time with Fox. It really is very easy to do, and I don't even have very good reaction time. (Average, at best.)

The grounded version of Bowser Bomb also fails to make the shock wave relevant. Either:

1.) The opponent is hit by the initial hitbox and is popped up into the air where they will proceed to airdodge while Bowser generously poses midair to give them plenty of time to escape. When Bowser hits the ground, the opponent will be airborne, so the shock wave is irrelevant.

or

2.) The opponent is not hit by the initial hitbox and has plenty of time to simply hit Bowser or just jump away if they don't feel like punishing. (Why not?) Or they might be hit by Bowser as he descends, thus launching them away into the air. Either way, the shock wave is irrelevant.

The only time I can imagine the shock wave ever hitting a shielding opponent is if Bowser perfectly times the attack against an opponent who is about to land from a jump such that the opponent will only have time to shield in response. (Rather than, say, spot-dodge.) Of course, whether or not the opponent is going to fast-fall would have to be predicted in order to maintain the perfect timing needed to force the shock wave to hit an opponent's shield.

Needless to say, I don't think that will really happen all that often. I don't play Bowser at a high level, so perhaps I'm simply missing something here, but it seems like a shock wave buff would be so niche, and so rarely have any impact on a match, that it just seems like it isn't even worth the effort.

 

[JOE!]

from your description BBomb sounds like a move that needs looking into XD

but seriously, there is a portion of a move that exists, yet doesnt.....wtf?