Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[The_Altrox]

Codes are very limited, and I wasn't willing to strip out the soul of WarioWare by removing the games entirely which was the only code we had. If I can manage to modify the prize system, I'm definitely doing it. My ideal is that the 4% healing prize be the only rewarded prize, giving a small, reasonable reward for winning a game.

Of course, if the prize system were highly customizable (as in per game), I might explore more ambitious directions. Just something that isn't "everyone gets a random prize, and one kinda broken one and one really broken one are possibilities". The prize system is definitely the direction I want to go with WarioWare; it's just a matter of holding out for the proper coding resources.

That being said, one of the biggest obstacles to our stage efforts remain a lack of coding stuff. I mean, all this time later, and we can't even change the hitbox properties on stage hazards. It's strange really; I'm sure everyone would love Port Town Aero Dive with weaker cars no matter your preferred hack...

Of course, these are the problems you face when both members of your team are more designers than coders, but rest assured that we are really going to focus on this sort of stuff as well as resolving the current bugs (including the item based ones) for the next release to the limit of our capability.

I guess that makes sense

 

[Azure Flame]

Try an older one, most people have problems with the newer ones. Try using 1.9.1. Download it from your internet and place it on your SD card and make sure it's not corrupted in anyway.

That was the first one I tried and it'd stopped working after putting BB in. I updated to 1.9.2, which is the newest I believe, today and that doesn't work. Whats up with my Gecko?

 

[Lokee]

So......How about that Bowser.

Fire Breath Buff?

 

[dansal]

There was some discussion that there should be less cooldown after firebreath ends to allow bowser to follow up on it.

 

[JOE!]

@Sonic:

I think we should either give him a better finisher, or just give him even more insane damage racking abilities to emphasize his hit and run style, and accomplishing the same goal just by getting to KO %'s faster/easier.

@b00z3r

A while back I brought up we should get rid of beginning/ending lag on fire breath to make it a better poke/approach option.

It allready has great range/etc/etc, but it lacks the ability to catch a foe by surprise....

Spoiler

if his recovery needs a buff, a better/cooler way would to just make him stupidly heavy...like regulally lives to 300% heavy, to show just how much of a fat-*** he is from his games

 

[A2ZOMG]

will playing BBRAWL mess up your VBRAWL and vice versa?


how balanced are the chars?

if i have some movies/pics on an SD card with BBRAWL,, will it still run?

No

Balance is like from vMarth to vIke positionally, as I'd consider Marth the best overall character, and the worst character (Ganondorf) to having a placement where Ike was on the tier list. It's still quite unbalanced, but definitely an improvement.

Replays might get messed up.

The real reason why Bowser's Firebreath should have less cooldown is due to how it gets punished by SDI.

 

[JOE!]

@balance range:

it essentially went from:

gods->really good->good->ok->mediocre->not too good->lol

to

Really good->good->ok->mediocre

a nice improvement, but as A2 said, it still may have a ways to go...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Rubs me the wrong way. It doesn't address the problem. If i'm going to try to grab Marth, the problem isn't that Marth's going to hit me out of a grab (Ganon's grab is pretty quick), the issue is that he's going to hit me before I can start the grab because I have to close so much ground. Unless the idea is to exploit the SA to close the ground by spamming grabs .

Ganon's grabs are in fact one frame slower than average, which means there are several Jab combos that you cannot shieldgrab between hits. They have a little less ending lag, but that hardly matters. You will still get punished for whiffing a grab.

I'd say that if Ganon needs SA on anything, it's Flame Choke. It's his most viable grab for the most part, and the one he's actually trying to land, except it's not actually viable most of the time due to bad priority and startup. It loses to pokes and spotdodges (like virtually everything Ganondorf does), but SA frames would let you at least deal with pokes.

 

[Steeler]

give warlock punch SA frames so it's a **** counter move or something

 

[JOE!]

give ganon's Jab or Ftilt SA

if they are able to just plow through stuff, he may have a reliable (kinda) poke option

 

[CarVac]

give ganon's Jab or Ftilt SA

Jab? Is it going to become like Ganon's Whistle counterpart? Warlock punch would be interesting, but would it be useful?

I agree with A2ZOMG: Flame choke could use Super Armor. Interesting question: Would it be as effective if only aerial Flame Choke got the super armor? Then it could work as a recovery buff as well as an approach buff, without being stupidly easy to grab people out of, say, fsmashes with a grounded Choke.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Both his aerial and grounded version need super armor. Just on the startup really. The theory I have is that if you have really good reaction time, you will abuse SA on the startup to "dodge" predictable attacks and punish. A buff like this would also help Ganondorf alleviate his problem of getting comboed a lot to some extent.

SA any longer than that doesn't matter for the most part, since the appropriate reaction to observed Flame Chokes is spotdodging.

No, it's not stupidly easy to abuse this. You would STILL have to bait attacks, because you still lose if your opponent spotdodges. Just, a buff like this specifically could be viably used to counter pokes. It would be like Marth's counter in a sense. It's a GREAT move under a skilled player, but you can't just rely on it.

And of course, there is the problem of getting grabbed out of Flame Choke, which sucks a lot.

The more obvious solution to Ganon's problems is getting a poke of course, which is obviously what our developers are trying to avoid. However, I still will complain that it's pretty ridiculous that Ganon's Jab is the only one that is always unsafe on spotdodge. Come on, tell me the logic behind having a Jab that has TWENTY FIVE ****ING FRAMES OF ENDING LAG. 25 frames is the duration of the average spotdodge keep in mind, which means you are always at a frame disadvantage when your opponent spotdodges your Jab. I would personally suggest knocking off at least 5 frames of ending lag from that which would give Ganondorf a chance to roll away depending on the timing of when his Jab would have gotten spotdodged.

 

[hotgarbage]

Would anyone here be willing to play some wifi sometime today?

EDIT: I don't think there is near enough interest in this kind of thing to warrant its own thread. To be more clear I would like to play some people here so that I can formulate more opinions on Bbrawl (to the best I can from playing lag-fi anyways) so that I can more readily contribute to the discussion.

 

[GHNeko]

Would anyone here be willing to play some wifi sometime today?

You should make a social thread for that kind of stuff.

 

[IrohDW]

One way to help Ganondorf with his Olimar matchup would be to enable him to cancel half of his startup lag just like sonic can with his neutral b. This would enable him to take more advantage of the windboxes against pikman throw without being easily punished. It would also make utilt less predictable because your opponent won't know which version of the move you are going to use. Naturally the lag canceled version should have less damage/knockback.

One change I would really like to see is on Ganons fair. Recently it was discovered that it has a coding error, which is why you endure landing lag even if you land long after the move finishes. It is supposed to autocancel from a fullhop and have some IASA frames. This thread has the info on it. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=252289

I agree with A2ZOMG in that Ganons flame choke needs some super armor. That would make him better at punishing and more viable without going against his design and giving him a safe approach.

Hotgarbage, I can play you later today.

 

[Lokee]

One way to help Ganondorf with his Olimar matchup would be to enable him to cancel half of his startup lag just like sonic can with his neutral b. This would enable him to take more advantage of the windboxes against pikman throw without being easily punished. It would also make utilt less predictable because your opponent won't know which version of the move you are going to use. Naturally the lag canceled version should have less damage/knockback.

One change I would really like to see is on Ganons fair. Recently it was discovered that it has a coding error, which is why you endure landing lag even if you land long after the move finishes. It is supposed to autocancel from a fullhop and have some IASA frames. This thread has the info on it. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=252289

I agree with A2ZOMG in that Ganons flame choke needs some super armor. That would make him better at punishing and much more viable without going against his design and giving him a viable approach.

Uptilt cancel would be cool, but It may be too drastic a change. If you could cancel it and still has its gigantic range/hitbox and wind effect plus the damage aura it would probably affect a lot more matchups then just Olimar, and could easily become broken.The other side of it is that the move itself is one of those moves you have but dont use very often like Mario's D-tilt or even something as bad as Warlock Punch and to suddenly make it that you'd be dishing it out often doesnt seem to fit the BBrawl spirit.

On the other hand it would help for sure.

I completely agree on Fair, Its just insult to injury and was techanically part of his character.

Super Armor Murder Choke=****.

 

[Eldiran]

I have a question regarding the use of PSA with BBrawl -- will you be converting all the codes to PSAs, or will you only use PSA for those characters that need changes that the codes cannot accomplish? (Such as G'dorf.)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I have a question regarding the use of PSA with BBrawl -- will you be converting all the codes to PSAs, or will you only use PSA for those characters that need changes that the codes cannot accomplish? (Such as G'dorf.)

PAL.
10unreppedregionswithoutPSAsupport

 

[Lokee]

I have a question regarding the use of PSA with BBrawl -- will you be converting all the codes to PSAs, or will you only use PSA for those characters that need changes that the codes cannot accomplish? (Such as G'dorf.)

Youd have to ask Thinkaman or AA about that, but they are often secretive.....just like Nintendo

 

[Linkshot]

You could always just talk to AA on IRC and Thinkaman on MSN.

 

[Lokee]

Would anyone here be willing to play some wifi sometime today?

EDIT: I don't think there is near enough interest in this kind of thing to warrant its own thread. To be more clear I would like to play some people here so that I can formulate more opinions on Bbrawl (to the best I can from playing lag-fi anyways) so that I can more readily contribute to the discussion.

Im game.

Wait does having anyother code besides the BBrawl codeset cause a desych cause I currently have texture codes with my BBrawl.

 

[Linkshot]

As long as the characters aren't modified, it should work.

 

[SuperLink9]

I know this has probably been asked 1million times before, but is there a version of Balanced Brawl without stage changes and Hanenbow intact? Especially Hanenbow.

I love the idea of the characters being balanced since even people like myself get annoyed by MetaKnight players and Link not being so good, but I'm not a competitive player and I find stages like Hanenbow to be pretty fun really. D:

 

[Steeler]

"it's too drastic a change" isn't a very good argument when it comes to ganondorf imo. lol. the dtilt itself is already a pretty serious change, and honestly, we are going to have to bend some rules in order to make ganondorf legit.

 

[darksamus77]

Ok, now somebody may blast my head off for saying this, but I believe MK is not the cheapest character in Brawl. Toon Link and Ike fit that description for me. Say what you will. I'm an MK player, and I've won considerably consistently with him. I chose him because he's cool and he fits my style of play because he's a bit faster. Anyways, I think that Samus' speed should be increased. It's total BS that they took her speed out and put it on ZSS, a newbie. Samus is considerably speedy, even in that bulky VARIA, not Power, suit. Just goes to show that Metroid STILL doesn't get any love from Nintendo.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Ok, now somebody may blast my head off for saying this, but I believe MK is not the cheapest character in Brawl. Toon Link and Ike fit that description for me. Say what you will. I'm an MK player, and I've won considerably consistently-

I stopped reading here.

Toon Link is good, but not amazingly so. Ike, he hits like a truck but moves about as well as a truck missing its tires.

I myself generally avoid the top tier characters, aside from Wario because he's just funny as hell for some odd reason. I go with whatever characters I happen to enjoy the fighting style of, thus Yoshi being my main consistantly since 64.

If you enjoy someone that happens to be high tier as opposed to play them just BECAUSE they're amazing (Captain Falcon withstanding) by all means enjoy playing them.

 

[Eyada]

Ok, now somebody may blast my head off for saying this, but I believe MK is not the cheapest character in Brawl. Toon Link and Ike fit that description for me. Say what you will.

You should be aware that your understanding of the game is inconsistent with the collective analysis of the entire competitive community. Your understanding of the game is limited, and you should probably seek out more exposure to actual high-level competition if you wish to formulate any valid judgments of balance.

I'm an MK player, and I've won considerably consistently with him. I chose him because he's cool and he fits my style of play because he's a bit faster.

Good decision. Playing a character that you have an affinity for tends to enable higher levels of success, assuming the character is viable. (Which Meta Knight certainly is.)

Anyways, I think that Samus' speed should be increased. It's total BS that they took her speed out and put it on ZSS, a newbie. Samus is considerably speedy, even in that bulky VARIA, not Power, suit. Just goes to show that Metroid STILL doesn't get any love from Nintendo.

The goal of Balanced Brawl is simply to make all of the characters balanced for competitive play. Making characters truer to their origins isn't on the agenda. In fact, this project is attempting to emphasize and stay true to all of the character designs as they were originally implemented in Brawl; as such, making Samus a "speed" character isn't going to happen since that goes against the design of her original implementation in Brawl.

If your only interest is to play a faster Samus, you should try Brawl+.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ok, now somebody may blast my head off for saying this, but I believe MK is not the cheapest character in Brawl. Toon Link and Ike fit that description for me. Say what you will. I'm an MK player, and I've won considerably consistently with him. I chose him because he's cool and he fits my style of play because he's a bit faster. Anyways, I think that Samus' speed should be increased. It's total BS that they took her speed out and put it on ZSS, a newbie. Samus is considerably speedy, even in that bulky VARIA, not Power, suit. Just goes to show that Metroid STILL doesn't get any love from Nintendo.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

That's the funniest thing I've read in this thread so far.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but this project doesn't care how cheap characters are. It only cares how viable/broken they are in high level play.

I mean after all, Ike is in fact a garbage character despite being as cheap as he is.

Also, I really don't get what you mean by speeding up Samus...and as it is, she's overpowered in this version of the game.

 

[Linkshot]

Perhaps he's trying to spam Plasma Beam but it's not working.

 

[TP]

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but this project doesn't care how cheap characters are.

Not if I can help it.

Would anyone complain if a large portion of the new changes just happened to support more aggressive play and less camping in subtle ways? No, they wouldn't.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Metaknight's ability to be aggressive is pretty ****ing cheap if you ask me.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Metaknight's ability to be aggressive is pretty ****ing cheap if you ask me.

I wish Captain Falcon had the ability to be agressive, that's what that speed of his begs to be used for.

Kind of wish Yoshi could be aggresive but at the same time quite like how he can abuse his mobility for both offensive and defensive purposes. Shame his egg lay special is still a little worthless, save for those epic WTF!? gimps where you run off the stage and egg lay them under the stage out of recovery.

 

[Eyada]

Shame his egg lay special is still a little worthless, save for those epic WTF!? gimps where you run off the stage and egg lay them under the stage out of recovery.

I'm not a Yoshi expert, but I have a hard time accepting that Egg Lay is useless. It's an aerial command grab in a game where blocking (shielding) is very prevalent and the game engine is basically balanced around the assumption that most characters lack aerial grabs. This makes things like Klaw, Inhale, and Egg Lay uniquely powerful.

Given that, I have a hard time seeing how Egg Lay could actually be useless, unless it has absurdly bad frame data. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[algandar88]

do i download the other 2 files for the textures?

 

[The Milk Monster]

My friend plays a bit of Yoshi, and from seeing it been used, the only thing I can see it being used for, though it's incredibly situational and horrendous, is what Nova said; silly stage gimps.

Saying Ike is cheap is an incredibly over used statement from people in the beginning of Brawl's meta. Until they realized how incredibly easy he was to gimp, and how slow his moves are.

In this, I'd say he should be top of middle tier, around there.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Since we're obviously getting distracted, who should we focus on next from AA and Thinkaman coming up with buffs/nerfs, who should we focus on next?

 

[Linkshot]

I think MK needs a -1 to dAir.

Hm...not sure who to focus on.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You guys didn't really get that much into Sonic but try... Pit.

Also, Egg Lay is a good move. Just don't expect any follow up from it and look at it as really easy free damage.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

What kind of changes happened to Pit and how do they make him better?
Pit is a good character who can outcamp nearly the entire cast, forcing an approach. He has pretty decent range on his moves and his aerials kill pretty well. He seems to be good at damage racking, but his smashes don't have much knockback, but are really fast and good punishers. I think Pit is pretty solid where he's at right now.

 

[~Firefly~]

Egg Lay? Useless? It's one of Yoshi's best moves when used properly. >.< Eyada, you aren't missing anything. Not only is egg lay great for the reasons you mentioned, but it also allows to reset the playing field, giving Yoshi the opportunity to position himself however he pleases, which is a very powerful tool. Its double-jump properties allow for some interesting, unpredictable movements, giving him a lot more options, both in the air and on the ground. It comes out quickly enough in the air to somewhat compensate for the fact that his Fair is so slow. It's also a vital component of his approaching game; it compliments Yoshi's Bair by punishing shields while Bair punishes spotdodges. This forces the opponent to guess what Yoshi is going to approach with, which is much better than having them shield every time.

If you don't think Egg Lay is a good move, play around with the momentum of double-jump canceled egg lays. Once you get the feel for it and start using it in battle, you'll appreciate how useful it is. =3

Sorry about the wall of text. I had to let that out.