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They aren't against speedups if they are essential. Like, Luigi, Ike, and Lucas got some very useful speed buffs (although Ike probably could use another).
Metaknight is fine. In exchange for his glaring nerfs that make him more manageable, he gets a gimmicky buff that makes him more interesting. He's still high tier material with his speed and options, but now must seriously work to keep up with the other characters who have received significant buffs to their good KO moves.
Essential is the keyword. Anything to enhance MK is not that. Hence my statement against speed ups. It'd be nothing more to make him slightly more interesting, and that's quite subjective as it is.
If I can perceive this correctly, game changing buffs were made to counter key weaknesses in a character's game. A fatal flaw of sorts. MK lacks this so he doesn't exactly qualify for such a change.
All that needs to be said about the Dimensional Cape is that it's now a gimmicky kill move, and that you will look badass if you use it successfully. As an added bonus, it kills earlier than his other kill moves.
I think it could stand to kill 5-10 percent earlier than it does now just for laughs, since it's a move he basically should never be using.
I basically said that AA/TM would be against giving MK a speed up on down B to combat the main aspect which is wrong with the move because it isnt essential.
dunno why the wording came out so poorly. I didn't even look like I was from USA.
lolol and I dont think anyone can look bad *** using it successfully. You'd probably perceived as being disrespectful by using that move against an opponent outside recovery. (Depending on your community at least.)
@Sonic discussion: I feel kind of guilty here because Utah has an outstanding Sonic player who could provide incredibly valuable insight on the topic if he played BBrawl; however, he doesn't, and most of my spare time has been and will continue to be consumed by various obligations/work related stuff, so I haven't been able to and cannot currently heavily commit myself to persuading the main group of competitive Utah players to adopt Balanced Brawl. Hopefully, things will settle down soon and I'll have the time to get BBrawl really thriving here in Utah. Until then, I can't really offer any valuable information on Sonic.
@MK discussion: The question of how to entice Meta Knight players to switch over to BBrawl is indeed quite difficult. The most obvious approach is the "Shiny New Toys" method, where some of MK's less powerful moves are enhanced as an incentive to adopt the game. The problems inherent in that approach have already been mentioned in the discussion here.
Another possibility I'd like to propose, that might help alleviate the problem at least somewhat, is the idea of "character-extrinsic motivators". These are already present in BBrawl, and they are quite effective.
Basically, a "character-extrinsic motivator" is simply any change to the game that isn't a direct change to any particular character, but the change still somehow makes the game more enjoyable for people who main that character.
A perfect example of a character that benefits heavily from "character-extrinsic motivators" in BBrawl is Fox. Fox wasn't changed at all*, yet the motivation for Fox players to adopt BBrawl is overwhelming. Changes to other parts of the game (namely: the changes to Pikachu's D-Throw and Sheik's F-Tilt) indirectly have a very positive impact on Fox mains. As such, Fox players have a very strong incentive to adopt BBrawl without Fox needing to be modified at all. Admittedly, Fox is the most extreme example of this, but the principle can still be applied to other characters.
(*: Yeah, +1% to Illusion. I know. Just bear with me for the sake of example.)
I don't know how useful these motivators can be in the case of Meta Knight, but it's worth at least considering. At the very least, they might be used to supplement other changes targeted towards attracting MK players, thereby reducing how numerous or extreme those other changes need to be.
There are changes already enacted in BBrawl that Meta Knight players might be enticed by:
1. The removal of random tripping.
2. Snake's Up-Tilt isn't quite as stupid anymore. The MK-Snake match-up might be considerably more enjoyable/tolerable for MK players.
3. Ice Climbers' infinite is gone. Might make the IC's match-up far more enjoyable/tolerable.
4. Falco's Chain Grab is gone. That's one less annoyance to detract from the overall enjoyment of the game.
5. The "Ban MK" debate has died down, so this isn't quite as relevant, but BBrawl offers relief from that whole mess. No more "anti-MK" stigma.
6. New stages that are good for MK?
7-?. Other creative changes which I haven't thought of that indirectly make playing as MK more fun or rewarding without making him broken?
You get the idea.
I can't think of any clear-cut example that would provide a "Fox-like" level of incentive, but perhaps these motivators can still be be useful.
Even if all else fails, Network Externality can be used as a character-extrinsic motivator to persuade MK mains. Basically, if we can get enough people to adopt BBrawl, MK mains will be forced to switch over as well. If significant enough numbers of competitive players change over to BBrawl, the money supply for regular Brawl will dry up and transfer to BBrawl, thus providing a financial incentive for players to switch. People will go where the money is, even if they would rather play vBrawl.
Okay, I do actually have some thoughts on Sonic, as those who have been keeping up with the AiB BBrawl group (very few of you) may of noticed. First off, I want to preface this and any other changes I may make in the near future with the statement that I think everyone is viable at top levels of play in BBrawl. However, there are still gaps that should be filled in as there are still outliers (more at the bottom but potentially a few at the top who need to be addressed). Ganon is a prime example of perfectly viable but still falling behind everyone, just for reference.
Anyway, with that noted, Sonic is floating around the bottom of my own personal tier list, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him in a similar position of bottom or low on other people's simply because he wasn't brought up to where the majority of everyone else was. His buffs are pretty solid but he was overrated in vBrawl to begin with.
Unlike everyone else has suggested, I dont think buffing his kill options is the best route to go in keeping with his character. Alternatively, I suggest we increase his damage racking abilities even more than they stand. As quoted by myself on AiB (I worded it well to get my point across there):
"Sonic ideally just needs more damage on more moves, in my honest opinion. It functions similarly in allowing him to kill better (by virtue of putting them in kill range quicker and more reliably) while staying true to his image in not being able to kill early or even averagely."
Some suggestions are buffing any variation of his aerial spin charge damage as his biggest issues still lie with MK/G&W who strive in the air at most times, and another suggestion which im adopting from Linkshot, because it is a good suggestion imo, is making his pummel better through speed changes or damage. The prior is better to work with of the two, but if you guys want to be careful about adding more timing changes then the other gets the job done in a similar fashion. Maybe damage on other things, but making pummels more rewarding as well as increasing the gain for landing his aerial spin charges both do a big part in making Sonic catch up with everyone else.
So yeah, buffing damage moreso really fits with the image of Sonic being among the best at simply racking up damage but lacking a way to finish them off at reasonable percents. Making him more apt and able to get the opponent to comfortable killing percentages fulfills the same role as a straightforward buffing to a kill move while being more subtle and meshing with what Sonic should be doing better.
One of the best Brawl players in Nebraska is a Sonic main, and let me just say that a good Sonic is near unstoppable. I can't see a scrub picking up this game and being able to throw down with the best, but Sonic definitely has the tools to be top tier. With that said, I would recommend maybe giving him a throw buff and just about nothing else.
Also, for everyone talking about BBrawl tournies, we've got one going on this Friday in Omaha, NE.
I've got a recorder so we'll have some videos, but honestly I have no idea how to do a live stream. If there's some demand for it I'm sure I could find someone who's tech-savvy that could set one up.
Sonic's real problem is his KO moves are horribly unviable against a conservative opponent.
His F-smash is like 18 frames, and his D-smash is 17 frames. You basically are never going to land that if your opponent is just defending, although his F-smash does have a stutter step for playing spacing wars (although it's rather inferior to Mario's). His B-air looks better at 13 frames, and comes out in a grand total of 19 frames after we factor the jump, which is at best barely viable out of shield. His U-air is pretty fast, but only kills near the blastzone.
Then his KO power is solidly below average, to make things worse. It's not hard to live past 200% against this character if you play defensively and don't let him bait a dodge. Just specifically don't get hit by F-smash, D-smash, or B-air. They are all blockable on reaction.
Not gonna lie Tyser; I think if you played Sonic you'd still manage to own everyone.
Edit: By that I mean Sonic has the tools he needs to do what he needs and do it well. If enemies are living to huge percentages, it's because he can rack damage incredibly well and would be broken if he could get kills any earlier.
Not gonna lie Tyser; I think if you played Sonic you'd still manage to own everyone.
Edit: By that I mean Sonic has the tools he needs to do what he needs and do it well. If enemies are living to huge percentages, it's because he can rack damage incredibly well and would be broken if he could get kills any earlier.
Sounds to me like you guys just suck at fighting Sonic. Sonic shouldn't even be mid tier in regular brawl or "balanced" brawl. He's a really ****ty character. =o
You really can't buff Sonic without changing the speed of his moves or his attributes overall. Anything else either ends up as really weird (like a character balling up and spinning slowly and somehow killing you with Nair which just plain looks stupid, but is probably your best shot), or still ****ty (like all these damage buffs that quite honestly don't mean **** since Sonic can't land anything ever.).
First, transitioning to file replacement is on the table for this release. I believe Ampharos (Master of All Things Stages) is really motivated in looking at the new possibilities in stage hacking. This has some disadvantages I do not like, but doing so would have the consolation of providing us immediate access to things such as shield damage and super armor frames, as well as eliminating virtually all bugs.
I want to clarify my personal stance on those two things. I think shield damage would be a fantastic tool to tune the characters with. I can easily foresee minor changes to shield damage ratios on several characters' attacks being potentially good; Wario, Samus, Falcon, Ganondorf, and Fox jump to mind. In problem matchups where the source of bias is overly defensive play, this could be a nifty tool.
Super armor would be a much more last resort kind of tool, but I would prefer it to speedups where possible. (Think of Ganondorf down-b grounding) Honestly... Ganondorf is probably the only person we would even consider this on, and I'd say it's unlikely.
I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but please don't get mad after people make a million suggestions for changing things in the next version and not all of them get put in. It's impossible to make everyoen happy and we will try to do the best we can.
That said, just to start discussion, what do you guys think of hypothetically giving Ganondorf's normal grabs (standing/running/pivot) additional super armor? How about adding shield damage to Fox lasers?
Other thoughts:
I told Ampharos last night the three characters I am most interested in looking at intensely for the next version: Mario, Bowser, and Samus.
I am surprised that Olimar keeps coming up, since he hasn't been on my radar at all. Do you guys really think that Olimar is a problem? (Both ways?) I am pretty sure his best matchups are Falcon, Ganon, and Ike, and I'm not sold that he dominates them. Conversely, his worst matchups like Luigi, Peach, and other characters who just won't stay on the stupid ground and get grabbed aren't that rough... Olimar's benefit from the new stages is enough to keep these matchups in line from what I've seen.
Olimar is, from my point of view, at the limit of how polarizing we want a character to be maximum (gap between best and worst matchups). For example if we could get Samus's gap down to Olimar level, I'd be happy.
I am surprised that Olimar keeps coming up, since he hasn't been on my radar at all. Do you guys really think that Olimar is a problem? (Both ways?) I am pretty sure his best matchups are Falcon, Ganon, and Ike, and I'm not sold that he dominates them.
& Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda.
I can't say whether or not these are accurate but the Zelda one is pretty much true.
She's hopeless against him though Sheik does slightly better.
And speaking of characters destroying others, if anyone needs a nerf it's GnW.
He he has 60-40 match ups on over half the cast and I think him and Marth have the most 70-30/65-35 match ups in the game.
That said, just to start discussion, what do you guys think of hypothetically giving Ganondorf's normal grabs (standing/running/pivot) additional super armor? How about adding shield damage to Fox lasers?
Olimar, he can grab Ganon and Ike out of everything. Those are still 7/3 matchups at best for Ganon and Ike. Sure, he's light and is prone to getting juggled/gimped, but it's pretty feasible for him to attempt to NOT GET HIT when those two characters have some of the most predictable "approaches" in the game. Considering he has some ridiculous throw combos and even more ridiculous throw KOs, it really makes Ganon and Ike's KO power look meaningless.
Super Armor on Ganon's Flame Choke startup (both aerial and grounded) would be the next best thing to giving him a speed buff probably. He would still lose a lot to Olimar, but you would be allowed to punish pokes provided you have extremely good reaction time. I personally don't think it will do any good to add SA to his other grabs however. His grabs all have crap range except for his pivot grab, which you will rarely get to use anyway.
As for Fox, he probably needs a tiny damage buff on lasers imo.
As for Bowser who I've been using quite a lot, I firmly believe his biggest problems are safety and recovery. His safety problems are obvious enough, with a very limited approach/poke options, and laggy KO moves. His recovery is probably the issue that should be addressed first, as it is the worst decent recovery in the game. It is "decent" in terms of distance, but at the same time one of the most easily punished recoveries in the game due to the lack of any real defense options offstage, and due to its bad vertical distance. He can't exactly land on stage unless there are platforms due to the landing lag of his Up-B sucking a ton, which hurts him a lot if the stage isn't battlefield.
How can I removed balanced brawl completely and resume my normal textured brawl. I tried deleting the .bin file and replacing the code manager codes and now it doesn't load through homebrew gecko and if I have the .bin file in and try to load through stage builder it freezes at the stage select screen.
I enjoyed BB but its getting annoying now and I'm haveing trouble going back to my normal textured brawl.
How can I removed balanced brawl completely and resume my normal textured brawl. I tried deleting the .bin file and replacing the code manager codes and now it doesn't load through homebrew gecko and if I have the .bin file in and try to load through stage builder it freezes at the stage select screen.
I enjoyed BB but its getting annoying now and I'm haveing trouble going back to my normal textured brawl.
When you have the .bin file on your SD the wii will freeze if you do not remove the Sd card after loading or not loading balance brawl.
To only have the textures on but no balance brawl all you need to do is make a .gct file in code manager only with the texture codes and load it through Gecko.
I'd prefer if you didn't switch to the file replacement system, for many reasons:
A) I have a s*** tiny SD card so there goes my music
B) There's always the risk of SD card cheating at tournies
C) It's much easier to use at tournies with the current system
I also don't think the use of stages is good for those reasons too. I also thought that one of the main points of BBrawl is to increase stage viability and not just say "hey lets get rid of these s*** stages and replace them with neutral stages from SSE." but that's just my opinion on the stages.
In case we do use
Grabs already have a frame of SA on it. It would be even more rediculous to grab an Ike out of an F-smash because of SA. SA on his grounded down-b for only the begining, because otherwise all he has to do is spam down-b and he'll live forever.
I personally think that G&W and Marth should get some minor nerfs in the next update rather than just Olimar getting them. (I second G&W so don't hate on me by saying "G&W is one of your worst MU's!")
Balanced Brawl only affects you when you are playing Balanced Brawl.
I would never do that to stages; I really want to explore using file replacement on stages to improve the stages already in the game as a first objective with INTERESTING (that is, not "Final Destination that looks different") SSE stages as a secondary concern. I haven't given up on Spear Pillar and friends yet. Personally, I want to eventually move to a point where there are zero banned stages in Balanced Brawl; it may be a pipe dream, but I hope with every update to be able to move closer to that.
Grab armor isn't super armor really; it's something special. Actual super armor on grabs is something that would be wholly novel. Of course, as an idea it was just musing; we are still quite early in planning.
Thanks for responding Thinkaman! I know you've been busy so I do appreciate the general input.
I dont think anyone expects all or even any of the buffs to make it through, its just that the input itself does help you guys make more thought out approaches to supposed issues. More suggestions = More consideration!
About Samus... tbh I really see her sitting right near Olimar, if a little under him. I might have to make a list to flesh out my own current thoughts on everyone but she at least seems like a BBrawl success story at the moment. The only thing that is left as a possible issue is that she still has an easy time shutting down Ganon, but Olimar boasts that as well, and probably hurting peach a good deal.
When you have the .bin file on your SD the wii will freeze if you do not remove the Sd card after loading or not loading balance brawl.
To only have the textures on but no balance brawl all you need to do is make a .gct file in code manager only with the texture codes and load it through Gecko.
Ok, well your missinformed on your first statement about BB freezing with the SD card in, I never took it out and it worked fine.
Anyway, I made a new .gct file with File Replacement code and other useful codes but the problem is after I first put in BB, my Gecko in Homebrew doesn't work anymore. It goes to a black screen if I try to load Gecko, I even have the most recent Gecko from the homebrew browser.
Try an older one, most people have problems with the newer ones. Try using 1.9.1. Download it from your internet and place it on your SD card and make sure it's not corrupted in anyway.
I told my friends about this, but they wouldn't here a thing. "Why don't we enjoy the rgular game instead?" Not that there's anything wriong with that. They said this game would never have tournaments despite it's easy to load capabilities. Need a rebuttle.
EDIT: Also, why didn't they alter Wario Ware? That stage could be counterpick if you didn't recieve prizes
That said, just to start discussion, what do you guys think of hypothetically giving Ganondorf's normal grabs (standing/running/pivot) additional super armor?
Rubs me the wrong way. It doesn't address the problem. If i'm going to try to grab Marth, the problem isn't that Marth's going to hit me out of a grab (Ganon's grab is pretty quick), the issue is that he's going to hit me before I can start the grab because I have to close so much ground. Unless the idea is to exploit the SA to close the ground by spamming grabs .
BBrawl does not messup VBrawl since you have to load BBrawl through VBrawl (via Stack smash exploit). But take the SD card out if you are playing VBrawl though.
The Characters are alot more balanced, and all tournament viable (Debated by some people). There are now none (or very very few) matchups that are unwinnable at very high competitive play but overall it's alot better. There are still characters that are better than others, but now the gap is immensely less.
Your pics and movies will be fine on the same SD Card
The only major downside for BBrawl is like all brawl hacks, Items (and a few Final Smashes) are glitchy or cause freezes.
Codes are very limited, and I wasn't willing to strip out the soul of WarioWare by removing the games entirely which was the only code we had. If I can manage to modify the prize system, I'm definitely doing it. My ideal is that the 4% healing prize be the only rewarded prize, giving a small, reasonable reward for winning a game.
Of course, if the prize system were highly customizable (as in per game), I might explore more ambitious directions. Just something that isn't "everyone gets a random prize, and one kinda broken one and one really broken one are possibilities". The prize system is definitely the direction I want to go with WarioWare; it's just a matter of holding out for the proper coding resources.
That being said, one of the biggest obstacles to our stage efforts remain a lack of coding stuff. I mean, all this time later, and we can't even change the hitbox properties on stage hazards. It's strange really; I'm sure everyone would love Port Town Aero Dive with weaker cars no matter your preferred hack...
Of course, these are the problems you face when both members of your team are more designers than coders, but rest assured that we are really going to focus on this sort of stuff as well as resolving the current bugs (including the item based ones) for the next release to the limit of our capability.
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