Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Budget Player Cadet_]

UpB cancel shenanigans?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Basically the way Wolf's Up-B works, he might as well be Pikachu except with a lot of solid KO power and good range.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ooh... I will look at this. :V

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pikachu's shield cancelable SideB is epic.

So like against shielding opponents, you jump in charging SideB AND holding the shield button at the same time. And then you buffer a grab as you land. Now is that a gdlk mixup or what?

Anyhow I just discovered this trick with Captain Falcon that nobody does, but has the potential to be super amazing. Any thoughts on this? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9742954

 

[Thinkaman]

Please remove Wolf's Up-B cancel shenanigans.

I'm sorry but something like that should be reserved for the Brawl minus team. Dead serious.

Anyhow so you can cancel Wolf's Up-B into ground animation with anything. The thing that makes this outrageous is that on the first frame of that animation Wolf's upwards velocity is EXTREMELY high. Basically he gets to do a Flight of Ganon (no, that's an understatement, he goes HIGHER than that) by canceling his Up-B, and I really can't see how most characters are going to punish this feasibly when he can just do it over and over again as long as he has a lead. We don't need another Pikachu clone, let alone one that has GOOD KO power.

Now this wouldn't be a problem if he could only cancel this animation with jumps, since jumping resets his velocity.

Interestingly enough, Up-B canceling into reflector keeps Wolf on the ground. UpB does combo into Reflector in this way, but that isn't a big deal.

I mentioned this; it's intended. Of course that doesn't mean feedback isn't as accepted (and desired) as ever.

I'm confused when you say Wolf can't be punished when doing repeat up-bs; the non-trivial startup on up-b kind of inhibits this strategy. Whenever someone tried to spam up-b against me, I could hit them out of the startup far more times than not.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

From playing against Linkshot's wolf for some time, I actually completely agree with A2ZOMG. His mobility in this test build is ridiculous compared to his original self; His sideB itself is nuts, but then throw in his UpB into the ground and his options jump up (pun intended?!).

I think Wolf is top 5 in this build, at least.
Of course, I will keep looking into the build, but first impression suggests Wolf could be overbuffed. I'll keep playing the build, though, and see if my opinion changes.

 

[Lokee]

Id like to report a problem.

I wanted to test out "Bower the Relentless" file however for some reason the game freezes when I do any of his throws

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I did find the variable that controls Zelda's upB distance, just FYI in case you want to buff that.

 

[Steeler]

yep, A2 and Esc know what i'm talking about.

also mystery gift is hilarious but a little crazy in teams...

 

[The_Altrox]

uh oh. I added the stuff in, and the stages are all new now and stuff. but all the characters are regular Brawl now (realized when Ike cant up b out of side b. what file controls that?

 

[Fuujin]

uh oh. I added the stuff in, and the stages are all new now and stuff. but all the characters are regular Brawl now (realized when Ike cant up b out of side b. what file controls that?

You have to leave the SD card in, I did this like 5 times because no one mentioned you had to leave it in this time.

 

[The_Altrox]

You have to leave the SD card in, I did this like 5 times because no one mentioned you had to leave it in this time.

I do leave it in. I have all the text files, the bootelf, and the DATA folder. I even brought in the old code folder, but it didn't work. the only thing I altered was making my old primary private folder the one being used. the new folder is there, but I lableded it to be inactive.

what file reads off the new movesets? I can't get it to work.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

From the root of your SD card...

private/wii/app/RSBE/pf/fighter/Ike/FitIke.pac is the specific file that does that. The private directory is the critical one in general for this stuff. Also, make sure you leave the SD card in; it is read on the fly.

 

[Big O]

In the beta jab locks aren't fixed. I was able to laser lock DK with Falco, jab lock G&W with Sonic, and jab lock Mario with Link.

On another note I don't see Wolf's up b cancel being all that threatening. The up b isn't exactly hard to see coming or counter. He can only hit you immediately with a weak Nair or reflector so it's not like it has scary combo potential. The side b jump canceling needs to go though. It makes his recovery and runaway game leagues better. The side b canceling on Fox might need to go too just because running away with it might also be too easy. Maybe give Fox up b bounce canceling instead of the side b jump canceling.

As for Ganon, I'd like to see 2-3% heavy armor on his up b. Getting gimped by ice blocks is pretty funny but things like that and fire breath edge guarding are pretty silly vs Ganon. The SA during dark dive release is nice but I think invincibilty for maybe half as long would be a better fit since MK still gets that free Uair/Nair of damage on hit. The SA on the grab portion is a little weird since it looks like he has the invincibility glow. Idk if you guys added that like you did for his wizkick though.

 

[The_Altrox]

From the root of your SD card...

private/wii/app/RSBE/pf/fighter/Ike/FitIke.pac is the specific file that does that. The private directory is the critical one in general for this stuff. Also, make sure you leave the SD card in; it is read on the fly.

so just move the Fit___.pac to the specific characters? okay, thanks.

also, I noticed stage edits. what exactly waas changed?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I mentioned this; it's intended. Of course that doesn't mean feedback isn't as accepted (and desired) as ever.

I'm confused when you say Wolf can't be punished when doing repeat up-bs; the non-trivial startup on up-b kind of inhibits this strategy. Whenever someone tried to spam up-b against me, I could hit them out of the startup far more times than not.

Wolf is not a character you just want to jump at in general, since the idea about Wolf is that his stuff while he's in the air is pretty safe, so you want to aim to punish the way he lands. With the Up-B cancel stuff, you can just Up-B into the ground and airdodge and most of the cast doesn't have a safe option to deal with this. Unlike Wolf's SideB, Wolf's Up-B actually has some existent priority, so there is no simple option of throwing out Nairs to reliably intercept this.

A good Wolf is obnoxiously hard to juggle trap while he's in the air (although he's easily comboed and if you predict the Reflector, you can shieldgrab it). With Up-B cancel to airdodge you basically throw the concept of punishing landing conventionally out the window, which is pretty much a S tier quality for a character with a solid airgame. And I must stress again that Wolf's aerials KILL and have good range.

So yeah Mr Esc has the right idea that he's top 5, but I think he's probably in fact the best character in the game by far. Better than vBrawl Marth easily (and certainly much better than BBrawl Marth right now whose TIPPER F-air doesn't kill until like 180% from center of FD which is a good balancing trait) and probably comparable to if not actually better than vBrawl Metaknight. This character basically has no weaknesses (aside from being easily comboed) and a ton of very respectable strengths. His new buffs give him a reliable recovery, he has a lot of kill power and a lot of range and some gay safe spacing tools and pokes and a reasonable camping game, and he was never exactly an easy character to safely juggle, and with the Up-B cancel, there is pretty much no safe way to punish this character's landing at all.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We're aware about jab locks and have known since we released this. Just... don't do them. Only use jab locks for short follow ups please. The final version won't be like this, and there's a reason we're releasing like this.

The private directory should be properly structured from the archive you download for the test build; it shouldn't be hard to get to work. You will also observe extra files for the PT Pokemon, Zelda, and Sheik that are included to radically speed up their transformation times. As per the stage files...

Corneria/Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1: Boundary adjustments
Spear Pillar Dialga: Boundary adjustments and collision adjustments
Castle Siege (assorted files): Radically sped up transition times

The feedback is appreciated. Wolf is definitely getting a careful looking into in particular.

 

[Big O]

I think BBrawl would be a lot more popular if there was some sort of active matchmaking. A thread, irc channel, friend finder, and stuff like that goes a long way in building support.

I'm also ready to play some wifi if anyone else is interested.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf is probably still bad, but I don't think he's worthless. Compared to others it's hard to tell if he's the worst character in the game, but I'd say it's safe to assume he's not "triforce tier" persay.

The Wizkick buff isn't that good but at least it offers him a solution in previously unwinnable matchups where he was walled out consistently. The F-air buff is VERY useful and gives him a lot more ability to anti-air and edgeguard and mix up his approach.

Warlock Punch buff is hilarious and barely landable in singles. In some matches I had against BigO and Fujin, I would use it against charged Smashes and say...DDD's recovery lol. Random shieldbreaks in FFAs are epic although their usability in singles is of course very questionable.

Ganon's F-tilt buff is invaluable and a good gtfo option, I guess since the SA frames are out on frame 4...so yeah, I mean at least you can consistently do something against anticipated attacks. It's kinda like Marth's counter, except it also can get people who stand around and don't shield.

I think Ike is the worst character in Balanced Brawl. He has very little ability to mix up and is generally a very unsafe character. Ganondorf for the most part does everything this character can do but better. Like seriously...every one of Ganon's moves besides Jab does the same thing but is generally better, but Ganon has a better F-tilt to compensate for that. Ganon also is a MUCH more powerful juggler, edgeguarder, and comboer in general and does more damage per hit.

Ike's Eruption buff is situationally useful, but again it's one of those things that's only barely landable against people who don't make a lot of unnecessary commitments, so it's not going to see a whole ton more practical use than the Warlock Punch or Falcon Punch.

Ike's only real advantage against Ganon imo is being less gimpable. Ganon however has about as much ability to create openings if not more, but his reward and ability to finish people off in general is MUCH better.

Ganon technically got a timing change by fixing his F-air (which I am serious when I say it's basically better than Ike's F-air, huge range/priority/pushback but more damage/knockback), so I think Ike should get one as well, or his Jab should do more shield damage.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

A2ZOMG, I probably should of put an emphasis on "at least" in my post. In my opinion, he's the best, but I didn't want to jump into a claim like that so readily.

 

[Mit]

Yeah, Wolf's up-B canceling rocket propulsions are a tad absurd. It's even a feasible aerial chase move: Hit your opponent up, single jump up-B into the ground, rocket yourself into the air, double jump, attacks. I swear it's as high as Sonic's.

He is fun, though. I like all of the wall jumps out of recoveries as well, although, can't those allow some extreme stalling? I haven't tried it, but I would assume you could just repeatedly side-b into wall jumps lower on the level for as long as you'd like. It seems like it really needs to be limited to one wall jump somehow.


And I don't know, Falcon's bonus is a tad ridiculous. Falcon kick chains can be absurd, and most certainly sound absurd. It can set up plenty of traps from aerial falcon kick to ground falcon kick as well (opponent dodges aerial falcon kick, punish their landing with a grounded falcon kick). Super armor on all of those charging moves is pretty crazy as well. It just makes it extremely easy to severely punish predicted standups/climbups and charged smashes. Ganon's wizkick can also punish any of these. Hell, Ganon's wizkick can punish any predicted attack, as A2ZOMG mentioned, just like Marth's counter (but you can remain a safer distance away as you prepare).

Bowser's fmash is also a super, severe punisher.


And ack, are there any better items to use for Jigglypuff's main Mystery Gift besides smoke ball? @_@ They're quite obnoxious, although I suppose there wouldn't be as much Gifting going on in singles, but it's all over the place in doubles/FFA. Animation for it is hilarious btw. "TADA!"



Oh, and as a side note, does anyone know what codes cause Custom Stages not to work? I disabled the "Disable Custom Stages" code and tried them, definitely froze my Wii. I'm just curious as to which code causes that.

 

[dragoncrescent]

Hey! I'd like to report a weird bug; playing as Gannon on Yoshi's Island, I fell down the pit in the middle of the stage and, as I was Dark Diving back up, he would grab onto the ledge and immediately let go. I was eventually able to get back out, but for some reason, I could NOT hold on to the edge as long as the tile was spinning.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hey! I'd like to report a weird bug; playing as Gannon on Yoshi's Island, I fell down the pit in the middle of the stage and, as I was Dark Diving back up, he would grab onto the ledge and immediately let go. I was eventually able to get back out, but for some reason, I could NOT hold on to the edge as long as the tile was spinning.

GET GANNON BANNED FOOL. YOU MUST DIE.

Besides, that glitch was in vBrawl anyway.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

My current Wolf plan is to disallow canceling the up special bounce on the first frame (just an added line of asynchronous timer: frames = 1 which is easy stuff) and see how that pans out. The glitch is kinda silly anyway.

There is a very, very long delay after wall jumping after which you cannot wall jump again in the same direction that pretty much removes all possibility of stalling on non-custom stages. Don't worry; I had the same thought on this. I even thought about Yoshi's Island (Melee) and the multi-directional pits, but as it turns out, the valid wall jump area on that stage is so small that you can't help but wall jump out of the pit when you wall jump.

That Yoshi's Island (Melee) glitch is in standard Brawl. It's harmless and just a byproduct of some shoddy coding of those blocks in Brawl itself (you can get consistent buggy behavior with various tethers under those blocks as well). If you want more buggy fun, try exploring odd interactions with the destructible blocks on Green Greens. There is little to nothing we can do about any of this by the way, but it's mostly just novelty.

Smash stack, which is pre-packaged with this build, causes freezing without the no custom stage code on (which, of course, we have on by default). If you are booting through the HBC or the Twilight Hack or some other method, feel free to delete smash stack from the SD card (it's a hacked custom stage). There are otherwise no compatibility issues between Balanced Brawl and custom stages.

Anything other than smoke balls for the role they fill would probably be pretty overpowered.

I think I'm going to look into how much some lag on Falcon Kick canceling changes things, especially on that wall bounce. I mean, it's hilarious and awesome, but it's hard to deny that it's just a bit much.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

My impressions from playing friendlies yesterday:

Link's recovery buff really helps him. However, with a good recovery and his amazing on stage game, something needs changed. We were thinking that maybe either his second strike F-smash or Up-b might also need nerfed.

I like how Lucas has the d-air to d-tilt lock, but it's still not the easiest thing to land. Lucas really didn't get much out of this build really except for a forced get-up causing d-tilt. Also, Lucas doesn't really have a BBrawl fun thing. :/

After playing with the G&W b-air, I found it quite fine. It doesn't really hurt his game that much. (not that it ever did, unless you're a lower level player who relies on it)

 

[PKNintendo]

Hmm...
I read both of your posts AA and Thinkaman and I was inspired.

Can't wait to play the newest build. By the way, I couldn't help reading page 294 and your character change discussion. When I FIRST came here, I was on the NESS SUKZ plZ buff please boat. Now... not so much.
I think he's mostly good right now and the only change I would contemplate would be making PK fire safer on block.



Edit: (DING!) There is a test build? This is VERY interesting. Apparantly a test build with appropriate changes were made. I haven't read all of it but Ness has more shield stun?
Woah sweet. Fair on Shield can now shield STAB? Hell yeah.

 

[The_Altrox]

I tried the play test out with a friend. I know little about Brawl physics, but it's cool. The super armor on Ganon, Falcon, and Bowser rocks. and I like Links Chain from up B. <3

 

[Linkshot]

If you only allow Jump Cancel Scar when you sweetspot somebody, I'd be fine with that. I wholeheartedly enjoy it.

Spoiler

I don't want my Wuffy nerfed ;-;

 

[A2ZOMG]

From what little testing I did, also, I THINK the SDI variable you chose for Marth's D-tilt does work at preventing wall infinites. Good job with that.

 

[prOAPC]

I like how Lucas has the d-air to d-tilt lock, but it's still not the easiest thing to land. Lucas really didn't get much out of this build really except for a forced get-up causing d-tilt. Also, Lucas doesn't really have a BBrawl fun thing. :/

why is not easy to land?
BBrawl fun thing?
Explain please

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I said easiest. I mean the opponent can still DI behind you and what not, so you have to predict which way they'll DI. You also have to remember that a lot of characters also have good disjoints to prevent Lucas from getting in to do d-air.

 

[Rykoshet]

I think Ike is the worst character in Balanced Brawl

Only 2 characters that significantly harassed ike in terms of being gimped were marth and meta knight anyway (scratch that, a good samus harasses ike's balls off at the ledge). Meta knight can still do it because the guy flies but otherwise you effectively made 1 matchup a practical 6-4 instead of an on-paper 6-4. Now if you just accept that SOMEONE has to be the bottom and ike is going to be your character of choice, that's alright, I don't even mind that. But don't think that a character that already attracted a slew of fanboys in his own right getting a lot of play because of a flashy gimmick is really your best success story when he's probably one of your worst characters overall.

 

[A2ZOMG]

To add insult to injury concerning about how little Ike changed in comparison to other characters, there is pretty much no way that Ike has the best Jab in this game. His Jab imo was never really THAT amazing, but the way things are turning out, it's pretty clear he's outclassed at the one thing he's best at.

Look at Sheik. Her Jab is REALLY STUPID. Rapid Jabs -> D-smash is a viable kill combo.

And anyhow after I did research on Falcon's Jab combo, I really think his Jab is also better than Ike's since he has a combat walk option that does more damage and potentially more hitstun (meaning his 3rd Jab true hitstun combos into his Jab1 at certain percents) PLUS Falcon's grab and juggle game is better.

Anyhow with BBrawl Ganon, I've started to do D-throw Fullhop F-air. Assuming they don't DI away (start doing that if you don't already pls), it's pretty safe and awesome.

Also I don't think the extra base knockback on G&W's Jab1 leads to any new guaranteed Jab cancel combos, EXCEPT maybe Jab1 -> Jab1 on a few characters (I only tried it and got it to work on DDD, but I don't think it worked on say Mario). Jab D-tilt probably only works on the floatiest characters, although I haven't confirmed yet.

When I get more time I'll try to see how SDI affects the other D-tilt locks, but I think Marth's is fine atm (SDI up and jump out iirc).

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I can confirm that Gdubs wall lock doesn't work. I was on RC and had my friend up against the wall and he was able to jump out.

 

[Gea]

I was originally going to make a huge post, but I feel this works better.

The main issue with the game still exists. There is little/no benefit of approaching vs camping. There is so little gain from successfully getting in and attempting to land a hit if you have the lead (and a projectile) that the game still suffers from Brawlitis.

Mind you this is more Brawl's engine than this codeset, but many of these changes do not remedy the problem. Some make the problem worse. I don't want to make a massive dissective post, but I will say that because approach is the issue of Brawl's balance. If it is not tackled head on, this project will never be successful in living up to it's name.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

This isn't trying to be Brawl+

This is trying to be like vBrawl so that way there is no transition between BBrawl and vBrawl. A change to limit camping totally changes the game physics.

 

[Gea]

You're thinking the wrong way. What enables Falco's strategy to run away-laser and force you to approach be successful? You play Lucas. Even in BBrawl, you should know that his metagame still boils down to runaway PK fire unless the matchup doesn't allow him to. Apply the same kind of logic towards all of Brawl.

Many characters' lose nothing at all by never approaching. In fact, they have more of a chance to win by playing that way. Now, without changing the physics of Brawl, how do you fix that? They've done part of it, which is buffing offensive moves %.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.
Characters are balanced to be able to have acceptable matchups against everyone, so that includes characters who sucked against camping vs those who camp. While the actually strategy of camping is intact, the reward for getting in has been adjusted.

Other types of camping (planking) are going to be fixed asap.

 

[Gea]

How do characters like Zelda, Ganon, Falcon, Ike, Peach, Luigi, pokemon trainer, Bowser, DDD, etc have a solution to camping? The reward is still not worth the risk for the majority of these characters. They get a move or two in and it's reset. If they mess up their approach they still eat it as bad as they did before, and nothing is stopping some of the better campers from still doing the same as ever.

How has the reward been adjusted? 3% more before the reset? I see no detriment to laser side B or pika's jolt running, Wario's aircamping, Snake grenade camping, etc. The game still boils down to forcing the other player to approach while you outwait them. The game is just as campy (sometimes moreso) and unenjoyable in a serious setting as before BBrawl.

You know why Marth fares well against Falco despite the camp? Because Marth gets some REALLY nasty stuff once he gets in. Not everyone does. And I'm not even trying to call out Falco, he's just an easy example for everyone to understand.

 

[JOE!]

t's more or less fixed because most of the abused characters (those who suck vs camping) have safe options vs camping, or when they get in they act like marth vs falco: better rewards