Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Stealth Raptor]

i dont think pikachu got overbuffed. he had been slowly falling behind with what was done, this should help him to keep up a bit.

 

[Thinkaman]

Lokee, Falco (nor anyone) doesn't have to have a double jump to walljump.

Wolf actually has some neat ATs by doing moves out of his up-b bounce. Immediately doing a reflector will stick him to the ground, and immediately doing an aerial or airdodge will bounce him pretty high.

Jigglypuff's formula for items is the one's digit of her damage + items she has previously pulled.

Evens- Smoke Ball
1-Freezie
3-Hothead
5-Mr. Saturn
7-Pitfall
9-Spring

This means:
-50% of random pulls will be Smoke Balls
-You will always get different items from consecutive taunts
-Every other consecutive item would be a Smoke Ball
-Taunting initially, at 0%, will give you a Smoke Ball

The point isn't to provide a bunch of crap for people to have to remember, I'm just putting out there how the mechanics work for those who want to know so everyone is on the same page.

Meanwhile, Fox... Fox's buff (and Wolf's) seem amazing until you realize that since you can't double jump out of side b when you don't have a double jump, it's of no help when you most need it. That said, Fox can naturally cancel it with shine (shine canceled jump cancel illusion anyone?) and can link his side-b to bairs with proper setup...

Falco's buff is obviously not as good, but that's kinda the point.

That's so much you can do with Falcon. I don't know where to begin... Aerial kick to ground kick to dive is amazing, but there's a lot of other creative uses. Kicking just off stage and kicking down will still let you cancel with up-b in time to barely grab the ledge. Kick into a wall and reverse Falcon Punch. Aerial Kick in frotn of someone and Raptor Boost backwards into them. The list goes on and on.

With Peach, you can bait by canceling into bairs ASAP. You can actually mix this up with NORMAL Peach Bombers effectively... Otherwise using it into nair/float-dair is really good.

Mario, Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Ivysaur can now travel under Battlefield thanks to their changes. DDD and Peach have it a little easier.

 

[Rykoshet]

Fox has some ridiculous **** out of his illusion now. Fox should rarely if ever be in the situation where he's missing his second jump outside of VERY VERY VERY low % situations because his fair is disjointed as hell and he can easily MC -> Illusion -> Rising fair and pretty much high point recover against most characters. With shine to wait out their jumps, the right application of a jump canceled illusion is on some dumb ****.

 

[Linkshot]

Fox doesn't like the air as much as Falco, so he does what he has to do to get back onstage.

 

[Rykoshet]

You cant be serious. Fox pretty much decimates falco in the air. The only exception is his back air.

 

[deepseadiva]

As I've mentioned before, and not that it should matter, but Peach Bomber cancelling has also been implemented into Peach-...

 

[Thinkaman]

As I've mentioned before, and not that it should matter, but Peach Bomber cancelling has also been implemented into Peach-...

Yeah, I did a huge double take when I asked Linkshot you test it and he said "You mean like brawl-?" The crazy alternate Bowser I made is also vaguely similar to what they did I think. In both cases though, what you see here is a drastically more conservative, restrained version of their shenanigans.

Ryko, I think he meant that Falco prefers the air personally. Being in the air lets him make sure your hands aren't on his prey.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wow, now that I actually read about it...Peach Bomber canceling sounds REALLY REALLY STUPID.

Well that could depend on how early you're allowed to cancel it, but it's a move that can't be powershielded as I recall, soooooo if the idea is that you can cross someone over and get a frame advantage on shield drop that can't be powershielded, that's ridiculous. And nobody in the right mind is going to try to punish Peach Bomber out of shield of course while the move is still going, and her aerials are already gay moves that can be difficult to punish on block.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You can't cancel Peach Bomber after it hits. You cancel before it hits (but after you start flying forward). The reason the move is probably impossible to powershield is because it is in fact impossible to block... and it is largely not a good thing for Peach. The attacking explosion of hearts and love simply never comes out against a shield. If you Peach Bomber into a shield, Peach just passes through the shield as though the opponent weren't even there; it's like using an attack with 0f of shieldstun.

Also, Thinkaman means Falco's bread. It's an easy point to get confused on.

Also, I know some people are concerned about this direction of design. I have written a piece on the topic that will hopefully put some minds at ease.

http://balancedbrawl.net/?p=48

 

[Big O]

I'd really like to find something cool yet usually useless for DK, Diddy, Lucario (Double Team?) Marth, G&W, and Snake

DDD is a GREAT example of a change that is really awesome yet mostly useless.

Whoops, I forgot Pikachu's main change. Not a big deal though.

Well I have a few ideas for some neat DK tricks.

1) Giant punch has no fall special

2) Giant punch grabs ledge after hitbox ends kinda like a tether (idk if possible but maybe increasing ledge snap range right after the punch would work)

3) Nair has a bigger hitbox to clank with projectiles more reliably

4) Aerial side b has less lag to make baiting juggles with it more effective

5) Nair has IASA after hitbox ends or autocancels

6) SH Dair autocancels (lol I always wanted to see that)

7) Fair hits at 0-20 degree angle on the non spike part

8) Full SA during Utaunt (you know you want to)

9) Giant punch is impossible to powershield (doubt it's possible)

10) Aerial side b jump cancelable on hit (to make it safe on hit for the sweetspot)

11) More shield damage on random stuff and giant punch

12) Dtaunt can be canceled into anything (ultimate mindgame lol)

13) SA instead of heavy armor on his cargo hold

14) Removing the ability to hold up/down to break out (or just make it a little harder to get out)

15) Fair spike causes you to bounce up a bit like Link's Dair

Some are practical, some are radical, and others are just silly but whatever. I could probably come up with more stuff if you think a few of them have potential.

 

[Rykoshet]

1) Giant punch has no fall special

Giant punch has super armor, huge range, and like no cooldown, **** would be broken as a committed recovery attack.

 

[Big O]

Giant punch has super armor, huge range, and like no cooldown, **** would be broken as a committed recovery attack.

Not really. You probably don't know this but it has significantly less range (and knockback) in the air. If I want to force an air dodge I could just Bair, which has more range, speed, and less cooldown. It's about as slow as his Dair (when fully charged) and it must be fully charged to have "like no cooldown". When not fully charged it is as slow and laggy as his Fair (about the same range too). You also forfeit all aerial control during the punch.

It's really not that big a deal compared to some of the other things I listed (which I know is probably a bit much). No freefall after the punch would just be a neat thing to have. It isn't as great as you make it out to be.

 

[Eldiran]

Also, if anyone wanted to know we can't IASA into specific moves, including specials--only categories like "aerial specials" or "footstools".

I'm willing to bet you know this already, but you can set up the ability to interrupt moves into specific specials. Specifically, using a Change Action to the proper special with requirements of if B is pressed, and if a certain direction is pressed.

It's messy, but it seems to have proven reliable wherever I've used it.

Also, Thinkaman means Falco's bread. It's an easy point to get confused on.

Also, I know some people are concerned about this direction of design. I have written a piece on the topic that will hopefully put some minds at ease.

http://balancedbrawl.net/?p=48

Good read! I can really see the thought process behind these drastic changes... I am filled with equal parts excitement and apprehension to try them out. Excitement because now these characters will have counters to the things that previously shut them down, and apprehension because I can foresee some really drastic changes to playstyle (like Falcon may start to drastically revolve around Falcon Kick shenanigans).

Am I right in assuming that all this is in addition to the previous test release's changes? (I.e. linking Falcon and Fox jabs, Marth and GW nerfs, etc.)

Although this is a big request, I think a good way to relieve some tension about the particularly egregious changes (Jigglypuff items, Falcon Kick, etc) would be to write a bit about how these address specific matchup issues. I personally know very little about Jigglypuff and her matchups, so it would be comforting to know that something as bizarre and potent as that is specifically aimed toward her bad matchups.

Either way, excellent work you guys! I look forward to trying it all out.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can't cancel Peach Bomber after it hits. You cancel before it hits (but after you start flying forward). The reason the move is probably impossible to powershield is because it is in fact impossible to block... and it is largely not a good thing for Peach. The attacking explosion of hearts and love simply never comes out against a shield. If you Peach Bomber into a shield, Peach just passes through the shield as though the opponent weren't even there; it's like using an attack with 0f of shieldstun.

Peach Bomber not being able to touch shields is a GOOD thing for Peach.

Because it doesn't push people, you sail past them harmlessly, and since they can't drop shield while the move is on top of you, you'll fly out of range safely where they can't easily punish you most of the time.

Think how much better Ganon's Dash attack would be if it didn't actually connect with shields, OR as I suggested multiple times, if it pushed people TOWARDS him on block. That's the way Peach's SideB works sorta.

Now the idea I'm getting is that not only are you forcing people to shield through the entire duration of SideB, they can't even drop shield when you reach the point where you're beginning to move past them, since you have a B-air or N-air that starts up BEFORE shield drop lag completes, and both aerials are not easy to punish out of shield when spaced well. This move has become REALLY STUPIDLY good for approaching on defenses. If they drop shield early, then they get owned. If they don't, they still get owned having to hold shield an extended period of time and then get pressured by an aerial that cannot be powershield punished.

 

[Rykoshet]

Quick draw would be broken with just having the no contact on shields, let alone interrupting into something that shield pressures.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Peach Bomber is a lot less mobile than something like Quick Draw though. In my experience actually using this Peach, it's pretty hard to form a consistent offense with this Peach Bomber. You can mix it in, but trying to use it too much results in you getting super predictable and sets you up to be punished. Actually most (but not all) of the changes introduced in this build are things that seem better at first glance than they actually are after being explored, and that's somewhat intentional design (kinda the opposite of how 1% buffs to moves are, things that seem irrelevant that actually are pretty helpful).

Of course, this is a test release for a reason. If people do some actual testing and discover Peach or anyone else is overpowered with this, we'll take it into account. We understand some of these changes may be hard to evaluate from our limited perspective; that's precisely why we are undergoing public testing.

Yes, all changes from the previous test build are still included. As per linking jabs, to my knowledge these are the only jabs remaining that don't link... and why. Do note that they should be generally assumed to link against aerial opponents; jabs that fail to link usually only fail against grounded opponents since they can powershield on f1.

Sheik rapid jabs (low%): These have powershield holes at low%s against grounded opponents, but given the multifold advantages they have now, making them even better is kinda off the table.

Meta Knight rapid jabs: These have powershield holes, but if this move actually did always link, I can see it getting really mindless really fast.

DDD jabs: King Dedede has the unique distinction even in standard Brawl of having a jab combo that has two different points that it can be broken (jab1 -> jab2 and jab2 -> rapid jab transitions). However, his grab is so much a replacement for his jab that him being this way makes a lot of sense. The fact that he has one of the best rapid jabs counterbalanced by the impossibility of linking into it is an interesting twist too.

Olimar's jabs: It does way too much damage up close on a character who is so fantastic at camping. A buff to it would be insane.

Pikachu's gimimcky jab: It doesn't combo to itself, and I think it's not hard to see why it would be really stupid if it did.

Jigglypuff's jabs: They not only lead into jab lock set-ups, but they can only be used at all in the very obscure circumstance that Jigglypuff is not in the air.

Marth's jabs: These actually fail to link so drastically that holding shield during them results in the shield coming up, the powershield window expiring, and then the second jab hitting. I think "unsalvagable" might be a good way to describe Marth's jab combo; hopefully the fantastic range is enough for you guys.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Speaking of Jabs, I'd want to complain more about Ganon's terribly fail Jab, but to be fair I think I'll try testing Ganon out in serious matches against my competitive buddies this weekend.

Whether or not he's actually the worst character in this version, I'll try to have some faith that his new buffs are enough to make him competitively competent. My intuition tells me at the very least that there is no longer a Triforce/G tier.

 

[Thinkaman]

Super armor'd f-tilt is the ultimate Ganondorf answer to winning a close-range jab-off. His actual jab is more comparable to a weak tilt on other characters...

 

[dragoncrescent]

On Sonic: I don't really know what to think of his d-tilt change. On one hand, I sort of appreciate how it forces some characters to the ground, who will instinctively roll into an F-smash. It's interesting to use on the edge of the stage, too. It seems to put enemies at a very advantageous location for Sonic, where he can attempt either a b-air or a meteor spring.

I certainly found myself using the move a LOT more than I would normally.

On Peach: Wow. This change has POTENTIAL! You need fast fingers to get from a cancelled Peach Bomber to a floating d-air. One interesting trick I want to toy with is cancelling (or merely falling) into a d-tilt...

On Captain Falcon: Yay!!! His Final Smash doesn't kill the game anymore!! I don't really see the use of his Falcon Kick antics, but then, I don't play him for any reason but his FS...

On Zelda: I was hoping Naryu's Love would be safer. Something like a bit more invincibility during the startup. The freezing effect is cool, but I think it goes against the 'do no harm' rule of BBrawl. It's just too drastic. Ice never figured prominently into Zelda's themes, and this in particular only seems somewhat effective. What matchups or gimps does a freezing Naryu's Love help her with?

On Pokemon Trainer: Huh. New Ivysaur is weird. I'm tempted to start using that move to go for meteor attacks, since it somehow seems safer. That said, I really, really miss his ability to use multiple Vine Whips. Where Razor Leaf sometimes failed, I could often nail a foe with the tip of the attack AND recover. This is, perhaps, analogous to the initial change you gave Ganondorf, where his uppercut murdered fools.

Speaking of Gannon: HJOLY CRAPFT! This thing scares me! To quote Shenzi, 'do it again...'

On Jigglypuff: Hahah! Very cool, I love how well the taunt is choreographed. I again think it goes against the grain of BBrawl's intention to stay loyal to the original game. It will DEFINITELY get more people to play Jigglypuff, and bring some attention to the project.

And that's my other bit of feedback. I've been trying to get my local gaming group to host a BBrawl tournament, but there's been a lot of confusion. A lot of people confuse it for Brawl+, which has received an unfortunate amount of attention. I think the project needs more recognition. Maybe if there were more tournaments that openly and publicly used BBrawl, or at least promoted it. There is a whole forum devoted to Brawl+, but only a single thread for BBrawl. I think that should change.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It would be helpful to have comprehensive frame details on SA/invulnerability changes, especially in the case of analyzing out of shield practicality for stuff like Ganon's F-tilt.

Just saying.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Bowser's fsmash has super armor from the first frame after the charge release frame until the termination of hitboxes.

Ganondorf's ftilt is armored starting on f7 I think; I know Thinkaman tried to make it fairly analogous to Wario fsmash.

Warlock Punch is armored on f10 both forward and reverse if I recall correctly. Armor ends sometime around when it hits (don't remember if it's on the appearance or disappearance of hitboxes).

Wizard's Kick is invincible as it rushes forward on the ground and has active hitboxes. Note that it can still clash.

Yoshi's Egg Roll has 7% Snake heavy armor at all points that aren't the start-up or cooldown of it (I think that's all times it can hit). Note that it now has transcendent priority so it cannot clash.

Charizard's glide has Snake style heavy armor once he's actually in the glide but only during the real gliding states. Basically, if pressing A would start doing a glide attack on the next frame, he has heavy armor.

Falcon Punch's heavy armor is much faster to come out on forward Falcon Punch than reverse (compared to Warlock Punch, forward Falcon Punch is armored noticeably faster, but reverse is armored noticeably slower); that's all I know.

Zelda's up special has two invincibility frames as it reappears and hits.

Ike's Eruption has super armor starting from the very first frame of its charging and ending when it usually does. Note that the super armor also now applies to the fully charged version (which was unarmored in standard Brawl).

I think that's all of it; Thinkaman will have better information on some of it probably.

 

[Eyada]

I don't want to comment on character balance until I've had the chance to actually play it against real opponents, but I do have a few quick comments after knocking around CPU's for a few minutes:

Hanenbow sometimes comes up on random instead of WWR. Going to the Random Stage Select screen and disabling all stages except for Wifi Waiting Room and then randoming a few times makes the issue readily apparent. Not really that big a deal, but, just in case it's easily fixable, I thought I'd mention it.

Title Screen looks great. The text at the bottom is kinda small, but it looks good anyway.

Regardless of the effect it ends up having on Fox's match-ups, Illusion canceling is ridiculously entertaining. I look forward to experimenting with it. To clarify, it can only be jump canceled at the very end of the Illusion, correct? I didn't fiddle with it for too long tonight, but it doesn't seem to be jump-cancellable at any point except the very ending. It also doesn't seem to work if you Illusion cancel; is it impossible to jump out of a manual cancel or is the timing just really strict?

Looking forward to finding abusive things with Sheik's jab.

The Jigglypuff change is adorable, but makes me apprehensive. I'm withholding judgment on it (just like everything else), but people already dislike Peach's/GW's randomness; it'll probably be a tough sell to get people to accept a randomized Jigglypuff, especially one that can ground people for a guaranteed Rest.

Overall, very interesting and bold. I'll admit I'm a bit worried by the increased scale of the changes, but I'm withholding judgment for now. Hopefully it will all turn out for the best.

 

[Fuujin]

On Zelda: I was hoping Naryu's Love would be safer. Something like a bit more invincibility during the startup. The freezing effect is cool, but I think it goes against the 'do no harm' rule of BBrawl. It's just too drastic. Ice never figured prominently into Zelda's themes, and this in particular only seems somewhat effective. What matchups or gimps does a freezing Naryu's Love help her with?

All of them actually, She can U smash directly out of it and even use it twice in a row with minimal lag, Zelda likes enemies above her anyways. Fresh Naryu's love to U smash does 29 damage and that's pretty nice.

 

[Fuujin]

And Sheik can now grab out of jabs which can set her up for a dacus grab release kill on some characters, this should help a lot.

 

[JOE!]

this is all quite interesting

Holy crap, we have awoken the mighty gimpy from his slumber :o

anywho, i am torn between two things (not at home atm):

Loss of Ivy's Up B non-helpless? I was quite used to acting like spider-saur, swinging from edges...but ill check out the new change. Chairzard's glide looks epic now combined with his glde attack buff.

Explosive Fsmash vs Relentless Boozer.

Hmn, it seems option A gives him a reliable source fo SA as well as possibly like the best kill move ever, killing at what, 70% in the middle of FD fresh? Between you and me it is not that hard to land an Fsmash on a guy, and now with the ability to plow through moves?!

Option B makes him harder and harder to kill i am assuming, what are the numbers behind Relentless though? because if he's at like 100% before he can shrug off a mere 5% or something...meh

 

[Steeler]

iirc the numbers on relentless boozer are 1% of armor per 20% of damage.

the charizard buff is weird. does the glide attack have armor too? this just seems like a really slow version of up B super armor that you can use above stage to counter gimp attempts. i don't see it helping in many matchups.

the ivy dair seems like a less effective version of the up B buff since both of these techniques only really help against people edgehogging...does it push ivy backwards? maybe you can make it turn ivy around so he can bair and actually do something against intelligent edgeguarders that don't just sit on the edge.

 

[JOE!]

it boosts her upwards im guessing much like her Uair rockets her downwards (find that much great for surviving odd attacks )

as for Relentless boozer: ****it, i was right on the money of "meh" ness....thing it could be changed to every 15 or even 10%? >.>

 

[Steeler]

20% is pushing it as it is. plenty of jabs stop working at 60% and attacks like mach tornado fail around that point as well.

i know it pushes ivy upward but does it do anything horizontally as well?

 

[GHNeko]

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha @ Mystery Gift.

My hat is off to you BBrawl team. That is an amazing idea. No joke nor Sarcasm included.

I'm being straight up real.

<3

 

[Thinkaman]

Frame data:

Falcon's 25% Heavy Armor on Falcon Punch starts on frame 9 for non-reversed, 21 for reversed. (Air and Ground)
Ganon's Super Armor on Warlock Punch starts on frame 11. (All cases)
Ganon's Super Armor on f-tilt comes out on frame 4 actually. Looking at the numbers, Ganon f-tilt is like a worse Wario f-smash. Having armor that comes out slightly sooner is now a slight advantage over it.
Ganon's invincibility on wizkick is tied to the duration of the hitoboxes.
Zelda's intangibility happens the frame her up-b reappears.
Bowser's Super Armor on f-smash comes out immediately on release.
Ike's Super Armor on Eruption comes out immediately on charge. (I forget what the pre-charge startup is.)
All of these cases have their state return to normal the same frame the hitboxes vanish.

Crazy "Bowser the Relentless" has 1% heavy armor for every 20% damage he takes, up to a maximum of 8% armor at 160% damage. At 10%-12% armor, he would become nearly impossible for part of the cast. I mean, just think for a moment about the MK matchup and what options MK gradually loses as the stock goes on. Note that this file includes the f-smash change.

Zamus's alternate file's stun has about a 6-7 frame advantage; enough to do u-smash, up-b, or any tilt.

Ivy's dair does push horizontally a small amount.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay, good to know that Ganon's F-tilt at least is probably slightly more practical than Marth's counter. Speaking of which...you can't just Super Armor your way through that particular move can you and stay in a favorable position?

And I guess the Falcon Punch/Warlock Punch buffs mean that it is very unwise to predictably charge Smashes against those characters. Seems like I'll also have more reason to attempt Super Jump spaced Warlock Punches for teh lolz, especially since nobody wants to shield it directly anymore.

 

[JOE!]

Crazy "Bowser the Relentless" has 1% heavy armor for every 20% damage he takes, up to a maximum of 8% armor at 160% damage. At 10%-12% armor, he would become nearly impossible for part of the cast. I mean, just think for a moment about the MK matchup and what options MK gradually loses as the stock goes on. Note that this file includes the f-smash change.

ah. that's ok then, i thought it was either-or.

With Fsmash eing a source of SA along with natural SA, it'd be rediculous

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Falcon Punch is actually fast enough to be a fairly worthwhile move in singles. You would really be surprised some of the places you can sneak it in. Warlock Punch, on the other hand, is largely too slow for that, but the true super armor and amazing hit properties make it an excellent move in teams play. That's what I've found at least.

Also, from what I've found reverse Falcon Punch is largely relegated to very rare surprise status since the dramatically later armored frames and slower start up make it mostly a lot worse, but reverse Warlock Punch is pretty close to equal to the viability of forward Warlock Punch. The two moves really get a lot of identify from each other in this release.

 

[JOE!]

Question:

if i have an SD card (found mine :D) with the OLD BBrawl data on it, what do i need to do with that when putting the new files on? Do i just let it load on, or do i have to finagle some stuff?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Just putting it on and overwriting all conflicting files should do the job.

 

[The_Altrox]

Wait, is the new version out? Which link?
also, about what Joe said. I've been collecting a whole lot of music/texture files on. wouldn't overwriting the data with new stuff cause them too delete?

 

[Big O]

Wait, is the new version out? Which link?
also, about what Joe said. I've been collecting a whole lot of music/texture files on. wouldn't overwriting the data with new stuff cause them too delete?

You could do what I did and have 2 private folders. One with all of the old stuff in it and another with the new BBrawl stuff. As long as the names aren't the same (I named the old private folder private1) you can keep both. Switching between which one loads with the gecko is as simple as renaming them.

On a different note I'd like to say that Ganon's non bugged Fair almost brought a tear to my eye. It definetely feels like it should've always been this way. The invincibility frames are awesome. Being able to mix up his recovery with an invincible wizkick is also cool. The SA on Ftilt and Warlock Punch is also incredibly satisfying. I'd say the invincibility frames have the most potential to be broken but I can't really say whether it is or not for now (just tried it out today). I'll have to get my friends to try out this new version.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The only character texture files Bbrawl will overwrite are Zelda, Sheik, and the individual PT Pokemon (though not PT himself). Feel free to substitute those for your own textures; the files are standard Brawl's files only included to make the transformations load faster.

There should be no interference with music.

As per stage textures, most won't be overwritten, but a few will, and due to the nature of stage hacking, those stage textures probably shouldn't be used with Bbrawl (Castle Siege, Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1, Corneria, Spear Pillar Dialga). It's possible to port textures to those, but specific .pac files for Bbrawl would need to be made (actually Castle Siege textures would be fine to overwrite our Castle Siege files as I think about it; just make sure you have files for every form of Castle Siege included). Other stage textures for other stages should be fine and have no conflicts.

 

[The_Altrox]

sweet. but is the complete new version out yet? I saw a bunch of links but I didn't know if any of them were used for the new game

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon Punch is actually fast enough to be a fairly worthwhile move in singles. You would really be surprised some of the places you can sneak it in. Warlock Punch, on the other hand, is largely too slow for that, but the true super armor and amazing hit properties make it an excellent move in teams play. That's what I've found at least.

Also, from what I've found reverse Falcon Punch is largely relegated to very rare surprise status since the dramatically later armored frames and slower start up make it mostly a lot worse, but reverse Warlock Punch is pretty close to equal to the viability of forward Warlock Punch. The two moves really get a lot of identify from each other in this release.

Actually, the reverse Falcon Punch is much easier to land than the regular Falcon Punch in most situations. The reason being is that the reverse Falcon Punch allows you to regain aerial control, allowing you to actually actively space the move. It's possible to bait airdodges with a reverse Falcon Punch...I've done it before. As you implied, it's actually landable in singles.

Warlock Punch kiiiiinda gets similar benefits if you do the Ganon Super Jump and then exploit the reverse Warlock Punch to gain spacing advantages, although yeah...it's too gimmicky overall due to being too slow and not having the godly hitbox of U-tilt.

Oh yeah as for Ganon's F-air...it's funny to think that it did in fact fullhop autocancel in Melee.