Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[deepseadiva]

The hentai of it is worse.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

no U

It's Going To Destroy Us All!

 

[EvolveOrDie]

It is both fascinating and horrible, a deadly and majestic creation of mad science ~_~

 

[rPSIvysaur]

The hentai of it is worse.

No, the tentacles becomes a lot more pleasant ;D.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

It is both fascinating and horrible, a deadly and majestic creation of mad science ~_~

 

[ぱみゅ]

Spoiler

A random way to break rules... (imagespam ftw)

Has anyone just saw the new Tier List? Kind of hurts, since I'm a Zelda main...
but well, the main question is: will that list actually affect BBrawl?

 

[uhmuzing]

Spoiler

A random way to break rules... (imagespam ftw)

Has anyone just saw the new Tier List? Kind of hurts, since I'm a Zelda main...
but well, the main question is: will that list actually affect BBrawl?

Not trying to answer for anyone, but I thought I read sometime earlier that MUs are the base of BBrawl and not the tier list.

 

[EvolveOrDie]

You would be correct, matchups not the tier list is the basis or bbrawl

 

[Lokee]

I saw it, and wow..............funny how all 3 main zelda characters are at the bottom. ;_;

Seriously though that alot of major changes

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm actually not trying to point nor propose a "tier list basis"
it was most likely a "maybe X wasn't that good after all" or "maybe Y was better than I though", also, sometimes boards' MU are changed to reflect what tier list suggests (which is really silly).

And I think Zelda's spot is a joke to match the Triforce Tier....

EDIT: can someone tell me if THIS is vBrawl or BBrawl

 

[EvolveOrDie]

I understand what your saying the tier list can be viewed as another information source, sort of a gauge of the general climate of vbrawl characters. What would really help is in-depth reasons why some characters moved so much other than we overrated this character and everybody else is just better.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Or Zelda is legit bad, and just a little tap under the course, boom, free stock.

Just sayin'.

I mean if she had a bit more control out of the end of up b, it wouldn't be so absolutely horrible. But still kinda' bad.

 

[ぱみゅ]

DF isn't very reliable, so she can't camp well; she can't be aggresive because of loads of cooldown on whiff, and trying to be deffensive ends on your opponent realizing her shieldgrab is just too slow.
Her recovery is awful (KayLo, the second main moderator en Zelda's Boards, said that she'd avoid to recover with Farore'sWind all she could). She's very vulnerable to juggling, very close-range battles and stabs and pokes in general. Several of her kill moves are very DIable or SDIable....

For goodies, she'll punish hard most mistakes (mindgames+Zelda=Win.. not epic enough, though..), and can juggle well with many silly things...

Overall, she's a poor character, but not enough to be a bottom tier... definetly low, but slightly worse than Lucas, though.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Or Zelda is legit bad, and just a little tap under the course, boom, free stock.

Just sayin'.

I mean if she had a bit more control out of the end of up b, it wouldn't be so absolutely horrible. But still kinda' bad.

I like the idea behind that, was one of the reasons I absolutely hated Zelda was due to the complete lack on control coming out of her up-B.

Just a hair away from the ledge after using Up-B? NO U! >_<

 

[The Milk Monster]

Yeah pretty much.

If it wasn't for that, and the super slow change time, I'd probably secondary Zelda/Sheik combo.

-nudgenudge-

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Yeah pretty much.

If it wasn't for that, and the super slow change time, I'd probably secondary Zelda/Sheik combo.

-nudgenudge-

Aye, as is though Zelda lacks any benefits using instead of Sheik unless you're a more defensive oriented player, at least Sheik's fast and relatively easy to get a hit in with, only thing she lacks is reliable kill moves. As is her only real finisher is U-Smash or MAYBE a F-air/B-air to gimp. I suppose D-smash under some circumstances or poor recoveries *Cough*Olimar*Cough*

 

[JOE!]

...no responses to what to change for sonic?

(or my suggestion of speeding up HA alot? )

 

[ぱみゅ]

Intelligent Sheik players can gimp with silly things like Nair, or Bair sourspot, or even Fair, but it's really hard to land; or also the chain glitch, but it's a lot harder...
Anyways, there's a lot more reasons to use Sheik and not change to Zelda than to use Zelda and don't switch

Spoiler

but "I love Zelda" is a really strong one lol

btw, Zelda's recovery is terrible, but Sheik's is severely ***** by sonic's spring (specially on BBrawl...)

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Intelligent Sheik players can gimp with silly things like Nair, or Bair sourspot, or even Fair, but it's really hard to land; or also the chain glitch, but it's a lot harder...
Anyways, there's a lot more reasons to use Sheik and not change to Zelda than to use Zelda and don't switch

Spoiler

but "I love Zelda" is a really strong one lol

btw, Zelda's recovery is terrible, but Sheik's is severely ***** by sonic's spring (specially on BBrawl...)

Personally, i don't have too much trouble with Sheik's recovery. Maybe just that in the off chance I actually hit with it, it'll drag them with me towards the ledge and they'll grab it while I fall and die, especially notable on larger characters, also annoying as hell when you use it as an attack and Sheik's poof back into existence saves them an otherwise fatal launch stopping them dead in the air, or on rare occasion stops them at the same point they launch from. >_<

However, an interesting change comes to mind, maybe kinda making it a Game & Watch style recovery where you couldn't use it again afterword but could still attack, such as that chain. Would give her a bit more recovery power, but not exactly sure how viable a change it is. Though really, I'd like to see more her ability to kill be tweaked in her favor.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I didn't said Sheik's was worse than Zelda's. I just said that hers IS ***** by Sonic =P

 

[NovaRyumaru]

I didn't said Sheik's was worse than Zelda's. I just said that hers IS ***** by Sonic =P

Ah, misread it then.

*off topic* Woot, made a new Yoshi avatar for myself. :D

 

[Linkshot]

I'm actually not trying to point nor propose a "tier list basis"
it was most likely a "maybe X wasn't that good after all" or "maybe Y was better than I though", also, sometimes boards' MU are changed to reflect what tier list suggests (which is really silly).

And I think Zelda's spot is a joke to match the Triforce Tier....

EDIT: can someone tell me if THIS is vBrawl or BBrawl

That's bBrawl, I think. The knee did 23%.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i just played what they have been working on so far, and wow. thats all i can say. a bunch of characters are getting some not-so-conservative changes, and ampharos has a nice cou-de-gras. gonna be epic

 

[NovaRyumaru]

i just played what they have been working on so far, and wow. thats all i can say. a bunch of characters are getting some not-so-conservative changes, and ampharos has a nice cou-de-gras. gonna be epic

Oh, and where did you get to it? :D

 

[Thinkaman]

Alright, I just got in a decent night's worth of human testing with the files we are considering for release soon, maybe tomorrow if things go smoothly on AA's end too.

We base our decisions based on matchups. Since matchups are a huge factor in aggregate results which is a huge factor in tier lists, you might see some trends in both. The core matchups are important to understand though, to make good balance decisions. However, even predicting exact effects are complicated: I suspect that I originally underestimated just how much DK could excel in an environment without DDD infinites, and I overestimated how much Fox would rise without Pikachu and Sheik's abuse. Iteration, testing, and feedback lets us continue to gain accuracy.

Zelda in particular was the last character I worked on significantly, and we still have to discuss and analyze her internally. I tried to find ways to make her more dynamic and smooth out the rough edges in her movesets. For example, I re-adjusted jab to be better and gave her up-b reappearance intangibility and non-clash properties. (So up-b-ing into another hitbox will usually beat it.) That's some small stuff she might end up keeping, anyway.

I think I'm going to start writing up a plain-english changelist while waiting for Ampharos to get back with playtest data from his own city. Expect a basic, non-numerical post detailing the changes for anything posted in the near future, and complete numerical listings for the main release.

 

[Linkshot]

If Farore's clashes, Zelda would be able to get recovery back, right?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i played with ampharos, thats how. im very interested to see the reactions of certain people. fox, wolf, falcon, and peach in particular

 

[Thinkaman]

Heh, aren't we all?

 

[Big O]

I haven't really played in a while but I am still looking forward to the next release (and having enough free time to really play). I remember helping you out with some of the beta builds and I wouldn't mind pitching in a little for the new release. Shoot some stuff my way . I'd also love to see what you've got in mind for Ganon.

I suspect that I originally underestimated just how much DK could excel in an environment without DDD infinites...

I may be reading into that statement a bit, but I feel that DK isn't really a character that dominates any MU's in particular (maybe Jiggs/Squirtle?). DK is one of the most balanced MU wise in Brawl (infinite's aside) and it sounds like he's possibly getting nerfed. As well as DK does vs. the previous high tier characters, he doesn't really do that much better vs. low tiers. Going evenish with high tiers like Marth/G&W, low tiers like Mario/Luigi/Fox, and having a slight disadvantage vs. someone like Ivysaur in regular Brawl says a lot. With all the buffs the low tier have gotten, I can't see any real reason to nerf him, especially since his Cargo throw no longer sets up Dtilt locks.

 

[Rykoshet]

I don't think we are going to look at Ike's d-smash more--Ike is getting attention otherwise though.

If this means you're going to apply more shield damage, just sigh.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I may be reading into that statement a bit, but I feel that DK isn't really a character that dominates any MU's in particular (maybe Jiggs/Squirtle?). DK is one of the most balanced MU wise in Brawl (infinite's aside) and it sounds like he's possibly getting nerfed. As well as DK does vs. the previous high tier characters, he doesn't really do that much better vs. low tiers. Going evenish with high tiers like Marth/G&W, low tiers like Mario/Luigi/Fox, and having a slight disadvantage vs. someone like Ivysaur in regular Brawl says a lot. With all the buffs the low tier have gotten, I can't see any real reason to nerf him, especially since his Cargo throw no longer sets up Dtilt locks.

See that's my impression of Donkey Kong. He's solid, but rarely ever dominating in most matchups.

He's a perfect example of a balanced character. He has clear cut weaknesses and valid strengths to counterbalance.

DK however I will say is a very difficult character to assess through playtesting. A HUGE part of his gameplan plays on his opponent not having matchup experience, and he's a character that when played "properly" pretty much just walks over anyone who doesn't know the matchup. His weaknesses are things that require skill to exploit. As simple as it may sound, juggling, edgetrapping, safely spacing, and not getting baited into airdodge -> U-tilt requires skill to do correctly.

I'll say that I do believe that in STANDARD Brawl, Mario actually wins slightly against DK. I say this after recently beating SRK and Dantarion's DKs solidly with my Mario.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I cannot honestly imagine anyone being unhappy with what Ike is getting; if anything, I really worry this Ike is too good. You'll (probably) see tomorrow though. It also fairly directly addresses some of what you were saying about Ike the other day; I can't really predict you well, but I can say it's not something small.

DK isn't being nerfed; the statement is more a reflection that he doesn't really need more help and that he's a legitimately deadly force which is somewhat more surprising to Thinkaman than it is to me. I'm personally very happy with where DK is; the thing is he's likely to stay just how he is for the indefinite future.

 

[Big O]

See that's my impression of Donkey Kong. He's solid, but rarely ever dominating in most matchups.

He's a perfect example of a balanced character. He has clear cut weaknesses and valid strengths to counterbalance.

DK however I will say is a very difficult character to assess through playtesting. A HUGE part of his gameplan plays on his opponent not having matchup experience, and he's a character that when played "properly" pretty much just walks over anyone who doesn't know the matchup. His weaknesses are things that require skill to exploit. As simple as it may sound, juggling, edgetrapping, safely spacing, and not getting baited into airdodge -> U-tilt requires skill to do correctly.

Lol yeah it kinda goes both ways with the MU knowledge. DK strengths really shine with a very good set of fundamentals, but pretty much everyone has something "abusable" vs. DK so each MU plays pretty differently. Not knowing the MU with DK isn't pretty when you fight someone good with a character you've never really played that much against. On the other hand, if they don't have a good grasp of the basics then a good DK's punishment game is just too overwhelming.

Mario vs. DK is also pretty much even. I played TC1 and we went pretty evenly. DK lives forever and Mario has some pretty nice strings, combos, and juggles. In the maybe 7 games we played, he never once cape gimped me. As long as you know how to look out for when he can set it up you can avoid it.

Good to hear there are no nerfs for DK as of now.

 

[Rykoshet]

I cannot honestly imagine anyone being unhappy with what Ike is getting; if anything, I really worry this Ike is too good. You'll (probably) see tomorrow though. It also fairly directly addresses some of what you were saying about Ike the other day; I can't really predict you well, but I can say it's not something small.

My 2 main issues with ike were in order
- his down smash being worthless
- his being straight up unsafe on block

A slightly better chance to break someone's shield doesn't really address either but i'll wait to see.

 

[Thinkaman]

My 2 main issues with ike were in order
- his down smash being worthless
- his being straight up unsafe on block

A slightly better chance to break someone's shield doesn't really address either but i'll wait to see.

Spoilers: Ike isn't getting shield damage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Eh, in Mario vs DK, in the matches I played recently, while I never got any gimps, in exchange, I had little trouble scoring the kill before 150%. The idea that DK lives forever against Mario only really works if he never is able to implement F-smash punishes or charged Up-smash juggles/edgetrapping. Mario's F-smash as you may be aware has massive horizontal range, and I've been able to use it to punish DK's F-tilt/F-smash for instance, and uncharged up angled it kills at around the 120s, or if Mario manages to force a whiff on his charge stance, it can be killing as early as 110%. Juggling DK with a full length Charged Sliding Up-smash is capable of killing DK in the 120s, and setting up a charged Up-smash is also pretty easy to do through edgetrapping as it is able to cover all of DK's getup options besides the getup attack. I've also found that using F-smash for damage dealing is good in this matchup and the huge damage Mario's F-smash does, not to mention the ability to usually put opponents offstage, can pick up the slack for Mario's uncharged Up-smash not killing until 150-160%.

Yeah DK does kill earlier, and he has a solid edgetrap game as well, but the reason I think it's in Mario's favor is that it's actually deceptively easy for Mario to kill DK earlier than he is accustomed to, and when he gets started, he maintains control longer through the use of a followable projectile, a U-tilt/D-air that punishes airdodge consistently, and DK's fundamental limits on the ledge.

DK DOES have the advantage on a few counterpicks where he gets the Up-B ledge getup which removes a lot of the options to edgetrap him easily, but Mario is more consistent on neutrals imo.


And yeah speaking of Ike's D-smash, I find it funny that it doesn't kill, has like no range, and is punishable by a Falcon Punch (which for the record is a marginally better move, but w/e lol).

 

[Thinkaman]

Public test is stable, uploading now. Proofing post. There *won't* be a new thread.

 

[Thinkaman]

PUBLIC TEST DOWNLOAD LINK
Note that download package includes Smash Stack and a .gct code file that includes Disable Custom Stages.

Alright, here we go. I'm going to preface this by repeating the idea of generally giving each character 1 flashy change or new tool that can attract people to BBrawl. (While improving balance, of course.) I'm going to call them BBrawl Tricks for now. A lot of these might be controversial--that is why this public release exist. Please give feedback and discuss!

These are changes made from the previous test build to the current. Unless otherwise noted, assume all previous changes are in effect.

Changelist

Global Changes
Lokee's title screen is included in this distribution.
A very cool Stage Select Screen grouping stages together by suggested legality is now in effect.
Ground breaks are not implemented in individual .pacs. Bowser, Ness, and Lucas are now the same as everyone else. DK is unchanged.
Jump breaks are sped up globally, which should actually be identical to previous behavior.

Mario
BBrawl Trick: Super Jump Punch Walljumping
Mario is now able to walljump out of his up-b at any time during the jump.
Other Changes:
Tweaked d-tilt. (higher base, less growth)

Luigi
No changes. Existing fireballs speedup and slipping dash attack will be considered his "BBrawl Trick".

Peach
BBrawl Trick: Peach Bomber Canceling
Peach is now able to cancel Peach Bomber's lunging attack with any other non-special action--very useful for aerials, floating, and item throws.
No other changes.

Bowser
BBrawl Trick: Giga Forward Smash
Bowser's f-smash has been upgraded to his explosive giga version, complete with super armor.
No other changes.

Donkey Kong
No changes other than a d-tilt SDI tweak. His "BBrawl Trick" will probably be "Not Getting Infinited by Dedede"...

Diddy Kong
No changes.

Yoshi
BBrawl Trick: Egg Roll Armor
Egg Roll now has 7% heavy armor while the egg is active. (Identical to Snake's Cipher.)
Other Changes:
Yoshi's aerial attacks all now do 100% bonus shield damage.
Bair and dair are now somewhat harder to SDI.
Note that Yoshi no longer has his previous grounding elemental fair, nor does Egg Roll restore double jump. It still does *not* render him in a helpless falling state, however.

Wario
No changes, other than +1 uair damage restored. Removal of his grab release vulnerability will be considered his "BBrawl Trick".

Link
BBrawl Trick: Aerial Spin Attack Hookshot
Link can interrupt his aerial up-b with his tether to give his recovery a slight boost or prevent helpless falling state.
Other Changes:
Arrows have been toned down a little. (less growth)

Zelda
BBrawl Trick: Nayru's Love: Fire and Ice
Nayru's Love now sucks hits opponent's inward initially, and finishes by launching them upward, frozen. Zelda is also able to jump out of post-spin lag, possibly blasting her frozen foes with a fiery uair.
Other Changes:
Jab slightly improved in knockback and damage.
D-tilt's knockback more consistant. (higher base, less growth)
F-Smash is harder to SDI.
Reappearance of Farore's Wind invincible. (2 frames)

:shiek: Sheik
BBrawl Trick: True Jab Canceling
Sheik can interrupt her rapid jab with any other action at any time.
No other changes.

Ganondorf
BBrawl Trick: Invincible Wizard's Foot
We already made Ganondorf's Wizkick hitboxes hit like a tank, so now he's invincible like one too. This lets him also use it to plow through lasers and even grabs.
Other Changes:
F-tilt has super armor as Ganondorf pushes his leg forward.
Grab and release parts of Dark Dive have super armor.
Warlock Punch has super armor during main windup and does considerable shield damage, almost breaking shields in one hit.

Toon Link
No changes. Toon Link's fixed f-smash and d-smash will probably be his "BBrawl Trick".

Samus
Dangerous Bombs will probably be considered Samus's "BBrawl Trick".
Other Changes:
Samus has had d-tilt and f-smash buffs slightly toned back.
Samus has lowered knockback on d-throw, and increased knockback on u-throw from previous versions.
Samus's zair now does 1% less.

Zero Suit Samus
BBrawl Trick: Jab Linking
Samus's third jab links on every enemy character properly. (Other characters got linking jabs last release, but theirs doesn't hit on frame 1!)
No other changes.

Pit
Dash attack, d-tilt, and d-smash hitboxes adjusted.

Ice Climbers
No changes.

R.O.B.
No changes other than a partial rebuff on d-throw. ROB's improved throws will probably be considered his "BBrawl Trick".

Kirby
BBrawl Trick: The Enemy's BBrawl Trick
Kirby's Copy powers have been updated to match any improved abilities on cooresponding characters, including improvements to some unbuffed abilities like Marth's Shield Breaker.
No other changes.

Meta Knight
BBrawl Trick: Non-Infinite Dimensional Cape
The c-stick now activates down-b's attack instantly, which retains it's slight knockback increase from previous versions.
No other changes.

King Dedede
BBrawl Trick: Jet Hammer Propulsion
DDD's down-b now gives gets him a slight momentum boost on release, and the hitbox lingers very slightly longer to match. Fully charged results in a larger boost.
No other changes.

Olimar
No changes.

Fox
BBrawl Trick: Fox Illusion Jump Canceling
Fox can now jump out of aerial side-b with a double jump or walljump.
Note that the damage on side-b has been reverted, and the hit angle is slightly more vertical.

Falco
BBrawl Trick: Special Walljump Canceling
Falco can walljump out of his side-b like Fox, but also his up-b as well.
Other Changes:
D-throw very slightly harder to followup. (lower angle, higher base)

Wolf
BBrawl Trick: Stealing Fox and Falco's Tricks
To no one's surprise, Wolf has copied both Fox and Falco's new tricks and added one of his own: He can jump or walljump out of side-b, walljump out of up-b, and interrupt the bounce after hitting up-b into the ground.
No other changes.

Captain Falcon
BBrawl Trick: Falcon Kick Canceling
The grandaddy of all BBrawl changes--the ending lag of Falcon Kick can be canceled into any special move.
Other Changes:
Falcon Punch has 25% heavy armor during windup.
Damage and knockback on Falcon Dive lowered.
Aerial Raptor Boost can be repeated on hit without losing (or gaining) height.

Pikachu
BBrawl Trick: Skull Bash Canceling
Pikachu can now cancel the charge-up of side-b with shield or dodge.
Other Changes:
Dash attack and f-tilt do +1% damage.
Sourspot f-smash hits higher at a steeper angle, so it's easier to chase.
Fair and dair do a decent amount of extra shield damage.

Pokemon Trainer
(No general changes)

Squirtle
No changes. Slightly strogner water gun will probably be his "BBrawl Trick".

Ivysaur
BBrawl Trick: Dair Boosting
Ivysaur's dair blast now boosts higher into the air, without removing control of the character.
Note that this replaces the previous up-b repetition boost!
No other changes.

Charizard
BBrawl Trick: Glide Armor
The duration of Charizard's glide now has 7% heavy armor. (Identical to Snake's Cipher.)
No other changes.

Lucario
No changes.

Jigglypuff
BBrawl Trick: Mystery Gift
Jigglypuff's side taunt discovers a throwing item to pelt opponents with. Finds Smoke Balls 50% of the time; other items include Freezie, Hothead, Mr. Saturn, Pitfall, and Spring.
No other changes, though 1% damage buff to nair sweetspot was re-added.

Marth
No changes.

Ike
Ike's Super Quick Draw will probably be his "BBrawl Trick".
Eruption now has super armor during charging, not just on release.

Ness
BBrawl Trick: Shield Damage Sparkles
Ness's dash attack, fair, and bair sweetspot now do extra shield damage, making his offensive style more consistant across more matchups.
No other changes.

Lucas
BBrawl Trick: He Just Works
A fast spot-dodge, 2f jab combo that does 12%, a 3f d-tilt that gives a 2f advantage and trips, a dair that knocks down at a wide range of enemy %s... Lucas seems the same, but now he just works.
Note that Lucas's d-tilt buff has been restored, and he is now able to do his dair/d-tilt-bounce/f-smash combo again.
However, the jab-lock system is not in this test release, so that isn't actually true yet. It is working properly though, and will be in all future releases.
No other changes.

Mr. Game & Watch
No changes.

Snake
No changes.

Sonic
Spring Spike will probably be considered his "BBrawl Trick".
Other Changes:
U-smash now harder to SDI.
D-tilt has a lower, more beneficial angle that opens up a chase for Sonic.


Alternate Test Versions

These are files that aren't part of the main character set, but are interesting enough for us to include them if anyone wants a look.

Bowser the Relentless
This Bowser gains heavy armor as he takes damage, letting him shrug off more and more small hits at high %s. This armor does not apply during cooldowns, hitstun, or tumble.

Zamus the Stunner
This Zamus jab3 links on no one, but paralyzes enemies for a very short amount of time.

I'm going to follow this post with a ton of commentary. In the meantime, enjoy!

 

[Lokee]

ONE WORD actually two........ KICK A

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I wish G&W got a cool/useless BBrawl trick
Regardless, this looks to be amazing. I will try this out straight away, and hopefully I will find someone to play on IRC.

hypehypehype

Anybody want anything specific recorded?