Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Thinkaman]

Looking into it, I can't seem to reproduce it even frame-by-frame.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dude, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that reversing the shield knockback on Ganon's Dash attack is totally appropriate for him.

I mean Ganon's biggest problem is he has no move that wins against people who defend since it either fails on shield or gets horribly ***** by spotdodge on reaction, so by making his DA hard for BOTH to punish by reversing which direction it pushes shields (it's already virtually safe on spotdodge due to pulling him out of range), it would give Ganon an attack this is good on both shield and spotdodge.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Thinkaman, who are you trying to replicate with?

 

[JOE!]

@ Charizard:

is it possible to add hitstun to the "weak" hit of his Fair? If so, that gives him a wide aera "interrupt" move at his disposal, dunno how that would play out but it could add soemthign defensivley.

@Yoshi:

A Nair buff would be nice...

@Boozer

Fire breath sped up would be wonderful, but how about a way to prevent him from being juggled so easily? I see this as a huge problem for him alot more than recovery.

 

[Thinkaman]

Alright, serious discussion time.

So, after finishing the first round of changes for the next release, Ampharos and I had a long conversation about the general direction of BBrawl. We have the following concerns:

- How can we get people interested in this project enough to download and try it?
- How can we promote this as a valid superior alternative to standard Brawl?
- How can we continue to improve the balance of the game?

It just seems that there isn't really a market or audience that is super excited about Peach bomber having +10 knockback growth or Link boomerang doing +1 damage. Most of our changes people see videos of and can't notice, which we bragged about.

Then there's Ike. Ike basically breaks the "rules" of BBrawl, and yet is (in my opinion) the poster boy. Him and his side-b have been in every build since the beginning, and everyone loves playing Ike. People ignore all the perfectly tweaked numbers in the world, but download bbrawl just to fly around the stage as Ike.

Next week I will go to GDC for the third time. The first GDC I met Sakurai and started to understand what game design meant. I grew a great deal as a designer between that and my second, and started to get a lot of first hand experience. Now looking back a year since then, I think I've grown an even larger amount. Working on BBrawl this summer taught me rigorous testing procedures in particular, but my more recent focus started to focus my design senses of what's fun and how to design efficiently. Realizing just how good our Ike is (in terms of design) reflects on that.

So, where am I going with this? We are considering investigating more extreme changes than we have up until this point. Keep in mind that this is still a conservative project, and we use a very conservative meaning of "extreme". Ike is a good example of what "extreme" means.

This does NOT mean:
-We will be doing any sort of physics changes, global or character-wise.
-We will be changing hitbox sizes.
-We will be rewriting attack startup times.
-We will be changing our existing balance target and goals.
-We are no longer BBrawl or denounce or original goals and mission.

This DOES mean:
-We will be considering super armor as a valid balancing option.
-We will be considering conservative cooldown changes.
-We will be considering new, specific cancel options to moves.
-We will be considering things that affect recoveries.
-You should expect changes that are very consistent with characters' theme, animations, and feel.
-You should continue to expect a release that is very heavily tested for both bugs and balance issues.
-You should generally expect only one major change per character.

Yes, we already have an abundance of ideas in mind covering the entire cast.

No, at this point in time we are not set on giving everyone something big for the sake of uniformity. Again, we still have the same balance target.

Yes, this gives us a lot more flexibility for balancing some characters and matchups, including Mario, Link, Falcon, Ganon, and Olimar off the top of my head. Yes, we will be able to tone back "overkill" buffs to them as appropriate.

Over the last couple days, I have already been writing and testing a ton of potential character versions. (Ampharos has also successfully finished some really awesome and amazing stuff after much toil.) We have significant internal discussion and iteration to go through yet, but I'm sure we'll be asking you guys for testing before you know it.

We really want feedback on this. I know it'd hard to judge without having a firm product yet to present and judge, but this sort of direction change (even if not all that different from the past) is not something we take lightly. Do you agree with or see other pros to having one "signature" change per character? Do you see additional cons we might not have thought of?

Thanks guys.

And by the way, Ganon is not getting super armor on side-b. That's just madness.

 

[JOE!]

@the black text:

Anywho, good to know we are gonna get into the aesthetic to get those players! As long as it fits the bill of course.

As for aesthetics...mind if I make a suggestion for a new easter egg?

Spoiler

when wolf plays against fox, instead of the announcer's voice...somehow haxxor the sound clip from SF64: "I cant let you do that, Starfox" in there

 

[Steeler]

to be honest, i expected a slightly more liberal approach would come sooner or later. i always thought that there was a good chance that the original guidelines were far too limiting and prevented us from reaching a high level of balance (and being attractive to people that don't really care about minor tweaks)

with physics remaining the same, i don't think moving from bbrawl to vbrawl and vice versa will be difficult.

 

[The_Altrox]

wait, is the new version out? if so, is there a new link or something to get the download?

 

[The Milk Monster]

No it's not out yet.

I cant wait until the full version is released! :D

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm going to throw in that in general I'd prefer, as a design principle, if major changes happened moreso to currently bad moves than currently good moves. Currently good characters aren't necessarily excluded though the nature of the changes is to be considered; I know Thinkaman sent me this crazy thing involving King Dedede's Jet Hammer. This is actually the only internal change I'm going to reveal for now, to give an idea of the spirit of things and since it's not a big deal like some others (like what he did to C.Falcon or Wolf). He set King Dedede's Jet Hammer to give him a momentum boost on release forward based on how much it is charged. This probably makes landing it a bit more realistic, and it either way gives the move some purpose to exist (which it sorely lacked before). The graphic of the swing supports it (there is a rocket firing backward very obviously), and anyone can understand what's going on and think of some ways to use it.

To be very honest, Thinkaman has a flair for the dramatic and told me about a lot of the work he had done related to this last night... which was news to me (I should have wondered why he had seemed so slow and unproductive for the past several days). He had an analogy about power generation that ended up concluding we had to be like nuclear power, but I think a more accurate analogy is this. I'm like Commissioner Gordon; I'm steady and reliable, and my work keeps Gotham safe. My recent work, in fact, has done much to ensure that some of the ills that were plaguing our "Gotham" won't be a worry anymore. Thinkaman, however, is the Batman. I don't think I need to say more about how things went. I have my concerns, but I'm going to be looking into stuff in-depth. Just know that if you're reading this today, you don't necessarily have less time than I've had to think about this...

Joe, that would be very difficult, but if it were not difficult, I would have no objections at all. If I were designing this game myself, I'd have Fox vs Wolf on Lylat Cruise have the background chatter from the fighting with the other members of the teams in ship coming up on the chat on the bottom (like when they do their special taunts, lines like "Stupid bird, I am the great Leon!"), but it's not really feasible to implement nor is it a good use of resources.

 

[Lokee]

- How can we get people interested in this project enough to download and try it?
Try focusing primarily on the Balanced aspect of the project. This of course leads Videos videos videos. most players are visual people and they wont believe something until they've seen it with their own eyes. Demonstrate matchups that were virtually unwinnable before.

Use the characters with the most dramatic changes as "LURES" (yes were fishing) Ike, Link and Ganondorf all have the apeal of catching one's eye and getting them interested. Or something as simple as Sonic spring would have them doing double takes.

Perhaps add some visual changes to make one feel like it is a update to the current game like the "title screen" I made or changing the Stage selection screen to actually see Wifi waiting room (I tried but I couldnt get it working...) Also similar to Brawl+ add new costumes such as a RED Sonic for the sake of doubles. Of course their are the sutble change like Wario's bite with Coin attribute or something of the like.

- How can we promote this as a valid superior alternative to standard Brawl?
One word.....Tournaments....have lots of those ESPECIALLY with VIDEO. Make the uncertain players see with their eyes that they can use ANY character and win. Also demonstrate the lack of abuses and just stupid glitches EX: Chaingrabs, Recovery Glitch, etc. but Also have videos that demonstrate the changes established, for best result someone has to do a SIDE BY SIDE COMPARISON type thing.

- How can we continue to improve the balance of the game?
Do what you guys been doing. I suggest focusing on finding a balance between character viablity and character style.

So, where am I going with this? We are considering investigating more extreme changes than we have up until this point. Keep in mind that this is still a conservative project, and we use a very conservative meaning of "extreme". Ike is a good example of what "extreme" means.

Sweet

This DOESmean:
-We will be considering super armor as a valid balancing option.
-We will be considering conservative cooldown changes.
-We will be considering new, specific cancel options to moves.
-We will be considering things that affect recoveries.
-You should expect changes that are very consistent with characters' theme, animations, and feel.
-You should continue to expect a release that is very heavily tested for both bugs and balance issues.

Made my day. However I dont expect a Super armor Falcon PAWNCH

 

[Jessmess]

I cant believe this stupid ****.

 

[Eldiran]

@Jessmess: You should probably be more specific if you want people to understand your indignant remarks.

We really want feedback on this. I know it'd hard to judge without having a firm product yet to present and judge, but this sort of direction change (even if not all that different from the past) is not something we take lightly. Do you agree with or see other pros to having one "signature" change per character? Do you see additional cons we might not have thought of?

Thanks guys.

I'm excited and yet also apprehensive about this. I've always looked at BBrawl from the perspective of, "will I get better at vBrawl even while I play BBrawl because it's more fun?" Thus far the answer's pretty much been yes; it's not hard to remember that Ike's Side+B freefalls instead, or that I should avoid using Bowser's Dair. So, if the changes follow similar patterns, it should be okay.

I really like the new design prerogative in that you are avoiding changing startup times. I feel like the most important thing you memorize in Brawl is how to land a move -- spacing, timing, etc. Personally the thing that worries me most is certain jabs linking -- those are moves that are generally fast that you either do or don't use reflexively, based on the situation. /kind of rambling

Anyway, as much as exciting new changes are good for publicity, I would naturally still prefer the more mundane changes where possible.

Speaking of, how is the idea of shield damage? I remember that being a topic with a lot of potential, especially as far as it concerns the likes of Ganon or Ike.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm excited and yet also apprehensive about this. I've always looked at BBrawl from the perspective of, "will I get better at vBrawl even while I play BBrawl because it's more fun?" Thus far the answer's pretty much been yes; it's not hard to remember that Ike's Side+B freefalls instead, or that I should avoid using Bowser's Dair. So, if the changes follow similar patterns, it should be okay.

Right, I think the keyword here is "discrete". Singluar, cohesive, atomic changes are not much of an issue in terms of adaption.

I really like the new design prerogative in that you are avoiding changing startup times. I feel like the most important thing you memorize in Brawl is how to land a move -- spacing, timing, etc. Personally the thing that worries me most is certain jabs linking -- those are moves that are generally fast that you either do or don't use reflexively, based on the situation. /kind of rambling

We know this is a big step and are as paranoid about it as you. Continued feedback on such matters will be valued.

Anyway, as much as exciting new changes are good for publicity, I would naturally still prefer the more mundane changes where possible.

Of course. It would be impossible for me to agree more.

Speaking of, how is the idea of shield damage? I remember that being a topic with a lot of potential, especially as far as it concerns the likes of Ganon or Ike.

Shield damage is interesting and a tool I'm really really excited to have. However, it's kinda tricky to use for balance. For example, if you add excessive damage to a move you've just made a powerful move--if you add excessive shield damage, you've possibly created a nightmarish pressure tool. That said, shield damage allows for very offense-focused buffs, which is invaluable.

 

[The_Altrox]

wow, I wish I could record videos to help the cause. I might hold a BB/B- tourney in Ohio once BBv.2 comes out. However, since I'm a really low tier brawl player, I'm afraid I won't be taken seriously as a TO

 

[deepseadiva]

K, here are some of my ideas for Peach. I'm aware some of these aren't doable, but I wanted them there for posterity's sake, and maybe we can branch ideas off of failed ones.

Winky Face Altercations
- Giving these uncommon turnips reflective, absorption, or even invincibility properties would give her a powerful glidetoss needed to get into projectile spammers.

Complete Fsmash Control
- Removing the random aspect and giving fsmash a specific order. Being able to guarantee a golf club every time, or even a speetspot tennis racquet is drool-worthy. The lack of signature wacky randomness is sad though - ideally, give the player the option to revert back to randomness via charging or utilt or something.

Giving Parasol a Little Something Something
- Two ideas here: the main motivation being, that as an offensive option, parasol is never worth it.

Give the tip higher knockback
- Most of Peach's combos can be ended with a somewhat-flashy parasol, unfortunately characters can usually get back to her to punish it since it falls so slowly. Giving it just enough force to make it safe is cool - and can even serve as a mini Ganon-uppercut in rare situations.

Give all the hits Lightning Kick hitstun
- Make it flashy as hell to land a parasol combo. Dair, dair, ftilt, uair to parasol which freezes 5 times would be sick - at least in my mind.

Turnips Bounce off Shields
- This is getting into possibly a more major change, but it would be flashy - though I haven't thought it through how shields would feel about this.

*** Power of Love
- Basically, have all of Peach's *** moves explode lovely hearts. Bair, Bthrow, and for the love of god, dthrow.

 

[hankydysplasia]

The direction of balanced brawl is a Catch 22 of sorts.
Ideally, if everyone played it because, as I believe, it is better than Brawl, then you could make more dramatic changes because people would have less incentive to go back to vBrawl which not as many people play. However, +1% changes aren't flashy, and as was pointed out, people want to fly around as Ike. The "big" changes (like DDD rockets or jab linking) make people less likely to want to continue supporting the project because it makes it harder to return to the original.

As a firm believer in principles, I would err on the side of caution. Don't change the core that got you as much support as you do have. Leave the flashy stuff to the Brawl+ ers. It's not that I don't believe you guys are really good, smart, designers that truly understand the subtleties of game design and could make it better. It's just that you started the project with goals I really believe in.

It's a shame that this project hasn't taken off like DDD's down B. It seems like with all the bickering about MetaKnight, if people truly supported this it would take care of the games issues to such a greater extent. Every tournament would likely see some major innovations in the "lower" tiers which promote the greatness of a 35 character game given new legs.

All in all, you guys should keep up the good work.

My original idea for advertising that went ignored back in the pre-Genesis build was to call it Brawl 1.1, 1.2, etc. That just gives people the mindset that they aren't changing the game, but upgrading it. Modern Warfare updates come out to fix the Javelin glitch. No one thinks they made the wrong decision. They just update the version number. Balance Brawl, which really in a word describes what you are doing, creates the mindset of a whole new game. Again, that's just a thought.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

I cant believe this stupid ****.

I sense someone that only plays a character that lost an abuse/op move.

If you don't like this project, don't play it. Or better yet, give it a try before you comment on it, kthxbai.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

In many traditional fighters, grabs hit on the very first frame. In fighters where grabs are considered "slow", they hit on frame 3 or 4. In smash, the typical (fast) grabs hit on frame 6. However, in smash grabbing has special privilege out of block (in most fighters, blocking itself has no commitment), and it can grab any non-invincible opponent whereas in most fighters the opponent has to be on the ground, not in hitstun or blockstun, and not in a special unthrowable state (smash has no specific "unthrowable" state). Also, most hits in smash launch opponents into the air (80%+ of a typical character's moveset) at least a little whereas in traditional fighters typically only a handful of moves per character launch. Also, in smash, jumping a lot is considered good play. In traditional fighters, jumping a lot is the telltale sign of scrubby play since jumping is usually very unsafe (high risk high reward one might say). Altogether, it just makes grabs very incomparable, and I think smash grab mechanics work well for its engine. Of course, that being said, we did rigorously examine each and every throw and make sure seriously abusive chaingrabs no longer existed.

In general, it's easy to forgive the abuses that exist in standard Brawl. Each character has over 200 different animations each with unique properties they might be in during any given match (granted, many are exclusive to item play but still...). Some of them on different characters interacting in ways that allow abuse is only to be expected. Luckily, we can come in with years of tournament data and fix these issues; that's really the heart of this project.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Thinkaman, who are you trying to replicate with?

Answer pl0x?

Also, Lucas's moves are being reverted... to the first BBrawl release, not to the standard Brawl model. I think there's some confusion here, but this is how Lucas is an actually good character, not an overall bad character with a few good gimmicks (which is basically what he is in standard Brawl). I'm not really sure how jab locks are actually going to play out, and either way, I doubt it will really benefit Lucas.

@_@

Even if it doesn't benefit Lucas (which it will especially since you made d-air even better for it), it will get more people to play it. I dislike BBrawl in the fact that it doesn't have jab-lock properties and so does EVERY other serious Lucas main. If you put it in (along with the jab-locking d-tilt) I know for sure that APC will play BBrawl and others will too.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

I think nobody answered this, but I cannot be sure.

If I insert an SD card into my Printer's SD Card slot, is it possible for me to download the files to that location on my computer?

I ask due tot he fact it is the only place on my dad's computer capable of using an SD Card.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It should be possible Beren.

Also, there is a working jab lock code after an absurd amount of tribulation on my end, and apparently Lucas's dtilt can make some use of it as it stands. However, to be clear on this, we're making characters to be good design wise not characters to suit the whims of specific people who happen to main that... which really goes double when talking about low tier characters who were bad in the first place so obviously need to be taken in a somewhat new direction.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Alright then, I might consider playing Balanced Brawl soon then.

 

[Thinkaman]

Answer pl0x?

Ganon Flame Choke jump escape by Jigglypuff you mean?

Even if it doesn't benefit Lucas (which it will especially since you made d-air even better for it), it will get more people to play it. I dislike BBrawl in the fact that it doesn't have jab-lock properties and so does EVERY other serious Lucas main. If you put it in (along with the jab-locking d-tilt) I know for sure that APC will play BBrawl and others will too.

This is being addressed.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ganon Flame Choke jump escape by Jigglypuff you mean?

Yeah, have you tried with SDI and on different terrain (slopes, slippery, walls, etc.)?

Oh, and having a d-air as a kill set-up is hardly gimmicky as long as the d-air is less DI-able. Otherwise Mario Jab->D-smash must be gimmicky too.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, Thinkaman and I have a "left side of the roster" list of problem characters, thanks to limited time it isn't the whole one. Here is the list of guys we specifically would benefit from idea churning on...

Mario: We have a change that one of us likes (hint: not me). Mario is kinda close to okay (the nerfs to kill moves aren't that bad), but I don't want to leave the guy out to dry. Double points if anyone can figure a way FLUDD could be really useful (not "I swear it's useful!" like it is now) and depolarizing as opposed to polarizing gets a star.

Bowser: I have something pretty awesome cooked up for him, but it may not be enough. Grab release gimmicks on him are gone and likely to stay gone; the main issue I see with him is that he's a kinda similar character archtype to DK except just worse. So if anyone has things about Bowser that are uniquely Bowser that seem natural, shoot.

Yoshi: For the benefit of Yoshi mains, I won't repeat what I said about this character in private. We looked into some cancels on Egg Roll which are kinda cool gimmicks but not legitimate answers to any of Yoshi's woes. Yoshi is very weird and very hard to get right on with the type of character he is; ideally he should continue to emphasize how different he is while actually being good.

Zelda & Sheik: Sheik needs watch because I did something crazy; don't worry about her. Zelda is hard because almost nothing would seem to fit her very specific playstyle of putting great power over small areas in a "light" way.

Toon Link is currently looking at little to no change; does this strike anyone as being unfair to him?

Samus and Zero Suit Samus each didn't really get enough time in discussion, and both are kinda worries in their own ways. There's an anxiety Samus is going to just suck again, and Zero Suit Samus is a character who has seen way too little use and we're not sure where people are standing on her.

That's the list of major concerns that warrant public attention for Mario through Olimar. Fox through Sonic are set to be discussed internally later.

 

[hankydysplasia]

I come in and out of this discussion as time permits, and 300 pages are a lot to read so forgive me for this question...

When is the next version coming out? And by all this large change talk it sounds like theres going to have to be a beta tested version of bbrawl2. Is this the case?

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Samus and Zero Suit Samus each didn't really get enough time in discussion, and both are kinda worries in their own ways. There's an anxiety Samus is going to just suck again, and Zero Suit Samus is a character who has seen way too little use and we're not sure where people are standing on her.

On the subject of ZZS, is there any way to remove the armor pieces that spawn if you select her form the start of a match? Have always been imo a bit too polarizing a start in matchups against bulky characters such as Ike, DK, Bowser, etc. If they didn't hit quite so hard sure, but as is migth as well be spawning with 3 bats to throw around >_o

 

[deepseadiva]

On the subject of ZZS, is there any way to remove the armor pieces that spawn if you select her form the start of a match? Have always been imo a bit too polarizing a start in matchups against bulky characters such as Ike, DK, Bowser, etc. If they didn't hit quite so hard sure, but as is migth as well be spawning with 3 bats to throw around >_o

That's an awful idea.

The pieces are incredibly important to Zamus mains. They're also incredibly brief - not to mention manageable.

 

[Steeler]

regarding FLUDD:

perhaps making it somehow possible to induce more hitlag when opponents (such as marth or gw) try to fair or bair through it? squirtle's water gun buff works pretty well, but i'm not sure of how well it fits mario. perhaps give it a wider range of motion, ie being able to point it vertically or downward. not sure of how this would work with recoveries but i think it'd be somewhat like sonic's spring.

i really think bowser should have some kind of good setup out of a throw to make up for the loss of grab release junk, and give him a reliable option that racks up damage. maybe super armor on the startup of bowser bomb to help getting out of juggles?

buff egg lay.

zelda. speed up the din's fire release? make nayru's love a good "gtfo" option in boxing situations?

toon link is a fairly underrated character in vbrawl that seems to be a victim of having a terrible matchup with MK, i think he's already quite good. his projectile game is fairly ridiculous. perhaps give his aerial up special hitboxes behind him, since it only hits in the direction he is facing. does his jab link? maybe buff one of his throws a bit.

i don't see how samus is going to suck if it's just her zair that gets weakened. her boxing game is going to be loads better with a linking jab, her general survivability is already top notch, and with the plethora of KO setups she has, the KO moves that are stronger will be put to good use.

ZSS is fine imo, especially with a better setup move in her neutral b. kind of the same situation as toon link.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

Bowser: I have something pretty awesome cooked up for him, but it may not be enough. Grab release gimmicks on him are gone and likely to stay gone; the main issue I see with him is that he's a kinda similar character archtype to DK except just worse. So if anyone has things about Bowser that are uniquely Bowser that seem natural, shoot.

Since I have not yet played Balanced Brawl, I don't know much about your version of Bowser as it stands. What I can say, however, if it has anything to do with Bowser's moves, I think I might have a few that come to mind, minus his Neutral B.

1. Dair - If I am not mistaken, Bower's Dair is something completely unique to him, in that no other character has a D-Air move that functions the way it does. None of the other heavyweight characters have anything even resembling this move.

2. Koopa-Hop - This is something we know Bowser has with the Side B, as for it being natural, I don't know.

3. FSmash - Unlike some characters in the game, the FSmash makes Bowser rear back, which in some cases for me, have cause an opponent's attack to completely miss, a sort of Pseudo-dodge, if you will. This is only possible however, if done with the C-stick.

4.Crawling - If I am not mistaken, Bowser is the only heavyweight who crawls, is that correct?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

snake can also crawl. also bowsers Dair has definitely been buffed lol

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm on probation for producing a version of Pit that should be illegal in 50 states (and Puerto Rico, Ampharos notes) so I'll answer some questions.

I come in and out of this discussion as time permits, and 300 pages are a lot to read so forgive me for this question...

When is the next version coming out? And by all this large change talk it sounds like theres going to have to be a beta tested version of bbrawl2. Is this the case?

We will certainly offer public tests as we work towards a final release.

On the subject of ZZS, is there any way to remove the armor pieces that spawn if you select her form the start of a match? Have always been imo a bit too polarizing a start in matchups against bulky characters such as Ike, DK, Bowser, etc. If they didn't hit quite so hard sure, but as is migth as well be spawning with 3 bats to throw around >_o

That's an awful idea.

The pieces are incredibly important to Zamus mains. They're also incredibly brief - not to mention manageable.

Yeah, Zamus mains would kill us. The ability to juggle pieces for as long as possible in a match is one of the skill differentiating factors for Zamus mains.

That said, ZSS is a concern character for me. I'm not entire sure even where to look.

regarding FLUDD:

perhaps making it somehow possible to induce more hitlag when opponents (such as marth or gw) try to fair or bair through it? squirtle's water gun buff works pretty well, but i'm not sure of how well it fits mario. perhaps give it a wider range of motion, ie being able to point it vertically or downward. not sure of how this would work with recoveries but i think it'd be somewhat like sonic's spring.

We're pretty limited on what the animation allows, and I'm not sure making fludd more powerful is a good idea. By design it is much better against some characters than others, so I'd argue it'd a bad place to focus buffs.

i really think bowser should have some kind of good setup out of a throw to make up for the loss of grab release junk, and give him a reliable option that racks up damage. maybe super armor on the startup of bowser bomb to help getting out of juggles?

Not an awful idea. There's a ton of options for Bowser though, so there's no telling how he'll end up at this point.

buff egg lay.

We did that in the initial release quite a bit! I actually tested a version that heals Yoshi, but Yoshi isn't a character who needs a reason to camp more. It wasn't broken, but wasn't fun.

zelda. speed up the din's fire release? make nayru's love a good "gtfo" option in boxing situations?

So Din's Fire is a pretty poorly designed move--it's almost broken in very low level play, and worthless in high level. You'd be hard pressed to make a good Din's Fire that isn't super annoying and campy, and almost impossible to make an improvement that wouldn't screw over terrible players.

Nayru's Love, on the other hand, has gotten some pretty intense investigation.

toon link is a fairly underrated character in vbrawl that seems to be a victim of having a terrible matchup with MK, i think he's already quite good. his projectile game is fairly ridiculous. perhaps give his aerial up special hitboxes behind him, since it only hits in the direction he is facing. does his jab link? maybe buff one of his throws a bit.

Adding hitboxes is kinda extreme--I felt dirty enough just adding 2 frames duration to the existing hitboxes on Jet Hammer. We'll see how Toon Link does.

i don't see how samus is going to suck if it's just her zair that gets weakened. her boxing game is going to be loads better with a linking jab, her general survivability is already top notch, and with the plethora of KO setups she has, the KO moves that are stronger will be put to good use.

I also slightly un-buffed d-tilt, differentiated her u-throw from her d-throw, and nerfed something else I think. I'll think more clearly after digesting my dinner.

ZSS is fine imo, especially with a better setup move in her neutral b. kind of the same situation as toon link.

Hmmm, thanks for the input.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

snake can also crawl. also bowsers Dair has definitely been buffed lol

You have me on the Crawling. Not what I am talking about for the Dair though.

I mean the attack functions like no other move in the game, by anyone.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean the attack functions like no other move in the game, by anyone.

Yep! It was also pretty bad. Those two factors made it an obvious choice for buffing--it's one of the more fun buffs we released imo, one of my favorites.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Nayru's Love is an already good gtfo move, but isn't reliable because Zelda is vulnerable during the startup, then she's unvencible, but I'm not sure if it is SDIable... Anyways, if it doesn't hit, Zelda is very vulnerable again due to cooldown.
The Flashy thing she could use is either a faster move of Din'sFire (even if the explotion is nerfed), I'd say also something with FW, but the actual change on it is awesome, so it's mainly ok.

For Bowser, I second the SA on Bomber, so it's an anti-juggle move, but very punishable if fails. A very good option, imo.

Samus is hard, because of her "uniqueness", The character like it is right now makes sense (she beats Ridley everytime!), but definetly needs something, like nerfing her kill power even more, but help in many silly ways, like having a reliable Usmash (wich has a good vertical range, btw), but I'm not sure about that...

 

[NovaRyumaru]

That's an awful idea.

The pieces are incredibly important to Zamus mains. They're also incredibly brief - not to mention manageable.

Again, bulky character. Ike is really irritating to try and get around these, he just doesn't move well enough. It's really bad when you start an FFA on someplace liek FD and have your bad to the edge and her facing you right off the start, under most circumstances she ends up with a free +1 unless one of the other guys decide to interfere, in which case I love them.

And I'd hardly call them important, otherwise she'd be worthless once they're gone which is far from the case, they're just a free burst damage at the start against bulky characters. Now in 1v1, not so much a threat as you have room to work with usually.

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't think FFA play is the major concern for BBrawl.

Regardless, it's hardly a usability issue. The pieces make Zamus who she is as a character. Removing her pieces would be like taking away Peach's random items, or Yoshi's egg shield, or Kirby's copy powers.

It would just be sad.

 

[ぱみゅ]

FFA is not an argument, but I agree with the part he said that Zamus relies on pieces.
They're cool and all and give her great advantage at a certain rate, but when they dissappear, she's wortless enough to be beaten...

 

[The Milk Monster]

Yeah removing her armor pieces is a terrible idea.

@Nova
Or...You know, you could just powershield the armor pieces? Just sayin'.

Plus it's a FFA, that isn't a concern with BBrawl, it's a competitive environment.

All Zamus really has is Paralyze shenanigans. She needs a buff. Her gimmick was mostly get a HUGE lead with the armor, and try to maintain that lead throughout the match. It was HARD to catch up past 1st stock.

Also, you mention +1, as in Timer mode and not stock?