Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Linkshot]

It sounds like it was aimed to combo into uSmash. All that means is a growth reduction.

Heck, having set Knockback so that you could always get that setup would be sexy.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I've learned a lot about coding in the past 24 hours, including the epiphany last night about how the game differentiates between basics, floats, and bits and how when looking for free variables I should probably do what Rocket PSIence did and go for floats since bits have obvious massive disadvantages and basics are used a ton to an absurd extent (I found basic variable 24006 being used in Ike's .pac) and are frequently write protected. Floats are the most flexible variable type anyway; I almost never actually need float precision, but it's not like having it is going to hurt probably...

As per what I was doing that caused me to delve so deeply into coding, I'll just say it will be glorious when I succeed.

 

[shanus]

I've learned a lot about coding in the past 24 hours, including the epiphany last night about how the game differentiates between basics, floats, and bits and how when looking for free variables I should probably do what Rocket PSIence did and go for floats since bits have obvious massive disadvantages and basics are used a ton to an absurd extent (I found basic variable 24006 being used in Ike's .pac) and are frequently write protected. Floats are the most flexible variable type anyway; I almost never actually need float precision, but it's not like having it is going to hurt probably...

As per what I was doing that caused me to delve so deeply into coding, I'll just say it will be glorious when I succeed.

Floats aren't always the best option. Multijump characters are of particular note. ou have to go surprisingly high to find floats which work on *all* characters without a hitch.

Also, I imagine your basic variable you observed was an IC-Basic at that high, and that is very common. RA-Basics in characters usually don't even pass 20, in some cases go much higher though.

One thing I have asked for is a memory map of all variables used by all characters and then the range of variables that can be called for within a every characters given pac. it would be enormously useful, especially for global fighter.pac injections.

I imagine you rbeginning work on the fighter.pac injection for invulnerability for ledgegrabs? Let me know if you are, I've personally spent some time looking into it and am having trouble isolating the area in which invulnerability is instilled. I know how to map the rest for successive ledgegrabs, but I just need to find where invuln is set.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

AA, have you had any time to look into RA-Bit[27]. I can't do it right now b/c I'm uploading tourney vids.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm looking for general opinions on Fox, Falcon, Peach, Pit, Bowser, and Wolf. Go!

 

[JOE!]

Wolf is just dandy.

He was good in vBrawl, high tier in fact until everyone found something silly that he got locked by.

THose are now gone, and his moves have gotten buffed.

Do the math

 

[Linkshot]

I'd be willing to WiFi for data collection.

Add me to any of the Messengers nestled under my Post Number to keep in touch.

EDIT: That was directed to everyone, and I don't use ICQ anymore.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm looking for general opinions on Fox, Falcon, Peach, Pit, Bowser, and Wolf. Go!

Foooox...eh. His only safe strategy is laser camping. He can kill early, but not safely. He's great in doubles definitely. Increase the damage on lasers a bit (or on one of his throws) and he's probably fine.

Falcon is OK, but not for beginner players. I think this character could use a tad more growth on U-air/B-air/2nd hit N-air so that he can kill a little bit earlier from juggles. He has some decent moves for pressuring defenses and some good juggling options, but a bad recovery. All in all a reasonably balanced character, but not too amazing. I don't like the change on U-throw since I feel it's unnecessary and changes Falcon's juggling game too much (I like sending them higher up and baiting an airdodge at high altitudes).

Peach, Pit, and Wolf are all round solid characters that might want small power/utility buffs on another move. Pit got a buff to F-tilt in the test build, which I think might be enough. If Wolf's F-smash can be changed so that it doesn't get DIed, that would help.

Bowser is still a limited character who has clearly bad matchups and suffers against camping and solid anti-airs in general and gets gimped easily. Probably this character needs a buff to recovery landing lag at minimum.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I see Fox and Wolf as pretty good characters. Fox is very high in japanese tier list, and Wolf is pretty the same on the brazilian

Spoiler

(and also Zelda/Sheik is on the mexican one, but I don't thrust on it at all...)

So I think they're fine, maybe some small buffs (no buff on laser camping please! that would be almost as annoying than pikmins), but nothing that matters at all.

Pit is also fine, his main problem is score kills very reliably, but he racks damage well enough to compensate that. The Ftilt buff is awesome, and it will make him very reliable in many ways.

Peach is actually a very interesting character, she can't reliably approach due her ranges, but her mobility and turnip pressure compensate that. But her harder matchups are MK and Snake by a large rate... anyways, despite those MU's are bad, but can become winnable just because of her movility.
A small buff on Ftilt damage would move it from useless, add some mixup to her normally stalled aerial moves, help to outprioritize some things, and give her a non-broken kill posibility.

I'm not very used to Bowser's MU's, but may he could need some more reward, like a BodySlam buff or something, but I'm not sure...

As for Falcon, I'd try to cut out some SideSpecial ending lag, actually the change itself is hard to notice unless Falcon hits too high, or goes for another almost grounded SideSpecial and hopes to hit with it. It may would anyways only allow Bairs, Uairs, more Raptor Boost, or silly things like those (or a knee if bad DI...), but would give Falcon some of the reward he needed.

Anyways, all of them are just ideas...

 

[MKOwnage]

I got it to work!
And so far I love it. I'm mainly using Ivysaur in it. Thanks!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A note about Captain Falcon that is not immediately obvious to most people is that he can air control during the swinging animation of his aerial Raptor Boost. Correct use of this (usually means retreating mid-swing) combined with the change can easily make it safe on block which is pretty handy.

Speaking of Captain Falcon, I should give the report that the concerns about his up special did not fall on deaf ears. Of course, he doesn't need nerfing in total unless I'm really missing something so he is going to be seeing some toning in general.

I haven't looked at that yet Rocket PSIence. I've been working on some other, and rather awesome, stuff, but that jab lock issue is likely to come to the forefront of what I'm doing soon. I am skeptical of how it will play out though; RA-Bits are kinda flimsy, and I'm not sure they are stored indefinitely the way Runtime Longterm variables are. Either way, I'll look into it.

 

[Eyada]

So, what does one need to do to make the test build run on a virgin Wii via Stack Smash? Finally got my group together to play the test build and, much to our disappointment, found no Stage Builder exploit to launch it; so we ended up playing 8 hours of Cosmic Encounter instead.

Is it possible to launch the test build on unmodded Wiis or is Homebrew required?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Smash stack works with it; I just didn't include it the same way I didn't include gecko. Just merge it with the standard BBrawl release, overwriting any similar files.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Basically you can run Smash Stack with the internal build by just copying the internal build files folders directly to your SD card that already contains BBrawl, and just say yes to all file overwrites?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah so something occurred to me that might be really awesome for Ganon and would make him a TON better without really changing the character.

Since apparently this game has an obscure variable that lets shield pushback go in the opposite direction of regular knockback (aka 2nd hit of Ganon's D-smash), what would be really really awesome is if you fixed Ganon's D-smash to push away from him (since it's already pretty balls in terms of speed anyway), and then you change Ganon's Dash attack to push people towards him on block.

That way Ganon has an approach that is virtually safe whether the opponent spotdodges or shields, and a competent Ganon user should have relatively little trouble challenging most attacks directly with this move (although G&W, Lucario, and Olimar would still be VERY troublesome matchups). Well maybe it's not exactly completely safe on block, but avoiding shieldgrabs the way Samus does already with her DA at least is cool, and it would be comparatively speaking much less fundamentally drastic than a timing change or adding super armor to Ganon's Flame Choke. I would assume the only "downside" to this is that it won't cause people to slip off the edge when you use DA to punish ledge getups but they shield, although the DASC exploit should at least keep the move safe (although you lose the related combos).

I should point out, it is actually possible to do this in vBrawl, but you have to be VERY close to your opponent so that Ganon's head is already on the other side of their shield when the hitbox comes out. That situation is highly impractical, but it does occur about 4:43 into this video. http://nicozon.blog64.fc2.com/?video_id=sm5044061

 

[MKOwnage]

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying.

Is the stack smash boot through Gecko?
Because Gecko can harm your Wii can't it?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

BTW you can call me rPSI, AA.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The only kind of gecko that is dangerous for your Wii is a reptile. The program gecko is harmless.

 

[Steeler]

pikachu seems like a fairly underwhelming character to me. maybe increase the damage on dsmash while maintaining the same level of SDI-ability because it really is not a KO move or a move with reliable damage output.

for ice climbers, increasing the ability to SDI blizzard could help with that character...or make it possible to SDI the throws? not sure if that's possible but it would, in essence, make it like a tech chase.

(EDIT) i think i may have had an epiphany? iduno. why not just make nana's throws literally impossible to chaingrab from but keep popo's the same? like...give the f/b/dthrows crazy initial knockback and/or quicker throw animation (for nana) and/or little to no growth so it isn't a ridiculous KO move? not that it really matters that much when you can just charge a usmash and kill at 110%. anyway i'm talking about so fast that popo would have to grab before nana throws, which, of course, would result in popo simply pummeling. this would also give chaingrabbing some use since popo would like to pass to nana so she can throw them away quite aways, which is honestly where ICs wants them when we look at what ICs are good at when we look at every part of their character that isn't related to "grab".

wario feels like he could use one of uair or fsmash buffed back up 1 or 2%. i don't think he's as good of a character as most of us thought when the 2.0 tier list came out.

dedede could use a little buff. faster waddle toss? that thing is painfully slow. i mean, squirtle hydroplaning under the waddle and hitting dedede with usmash is fun but kind of sad.

about charizard, maybe do something to ftilt so it's a better poke/anti-air (a la dk ftilt)? charizard has a lot of trouble controlling the space in front of him that is outside of grab range since fair has 0 knockback where it matters. rock smash is a tricky move but can definitely be baited and isn't safe enough to be fit for that job. or utilt so it combos better? as it is utilt is just a slightly slower usmash with slightly weaker knockback and half the damage. zard can't do it immediately out of shield either. not a bad move but outclassed by usmash in the majority of situations.

maybe speed up one of ike's ftilt angles a slight bit and weaken it so it is a poke and not a kill move. or heck, weaken the move altogether. from what i see of mr. doom, it's not a very important KO move. this is along the same lines of what i'm thinking for charizard's ftilt. comparable to what we've done with zelda ftilt.

bowser is fairly weaksauce. quite possibly the worst character, almost certainly bottom 5. he needs a bigger gamechanger. i think thinkaman knows what i'm talkin about. :] also maybe more range on fortress? iduno. a2z's misgivings about his recovery aren't misplaced imo. i'd like to see bowser have a legitimately good setup out of a throw, at least as good as pikachu's.

wolf is totally fine. great KO power, great damage output, great zoning, weak recovery. sounds balanced and a good mid to high character...which is where i'd place tons of characters.

fox is also fine imo. ridiculously fast character. a note i feel i should mention is that fox's jab game is actually really good already without the rapid jabs linking together. fox is basically wario with a projectile, less survivability, more kill power (now). you could buff his dthrow to do a little more than 9% or lasers to not get weaker with distance if he seems a bit weak, but i don't think that's the case.

related to fox, have we done anything with marth's 0% throw combos? iirc he has guaranteed chaingrab to spike at the edge against a handful of characters.

falcon needs a little something more. maybe make his dtilt a trip setup like sonic's? not very creative and perhaps a little too slow for it but i can see this working. it just looks like a move that should be setting up crazy combos to me. also, make his jab game one of the best in the game, possibly? it's not quite there yet. or something more with his specials?

peach looks pretty good to me. by far some of the best defensive/campy abilities with absolutely terrorizing shield pressure. if she is a little weak we can maybe make dsmash a bit better but she is not in need of anything big...if anything at all.

pit is weird, i have a feeling that he may need buffs with a limitation on ledgecamping implemented eventually. add a timer to increase damage on the arrows and he's good. i'd like to see the second hit of dsmash get a significant boost in power, surviving that shiz at 180% with squirtle is kind of sad. perhaps a little more damage on side b.

i hope that helped thinkaman.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The main use of Pikachu's dsmash is that it eats shields.

I never thought Wario was that good and never balanced him assuming he was #3 in standard Brawl. I generally didn't use the SBR tier list as any sort of a roadmap for which characters need more or less help.

Waddle Dee Toss is obviously a pretty lousy move against a small, fast character like Squirtle, but it's pretty handy in some other matchups. Waddle Dees wall projectiles, Waddle Doos are basically the same except they occasionally seize some space with a laser, and Gordos plow right through projectiles at a somewhat different arc and then are very powerful if they hit. All three cannot be blocked by Star Fox reflectors or Link/Toon Link's passive shield (I don't know if gordos are blockable by most other reflectors, but Waddle Dees against things like Pit Angel Ring just get hit out since they have hurtboxes). I think against guys like Link and Falco that this move makes a lot more sense than against guys like Squirtle, and in that context, I'm not sure it needs buffed. In general, I'm pretty happy about where DDD is; he seems very solid to me but not really overpowering.

 

[Thinkaman]

Here are some personal opinions on the characters--these are not necessarily indicative of the next changes to BBrawl, just things from my perspective.

Mario - Average now, and will be slightly below average after the (needed) knockback nerfs.
Luigi - Fine.
Peach - Underpowered, needs non-trivial buff.
Bowser - Definitely in the bottom 3, needs attention.
DK - Very slightly below average.
Diddy - Fine.
Yoshi - Needs some reworking.
Wario - Fine.
Link - Arrows should be toned down a little, which might make him somewhat underpowered. Recovery still polarizing.
Shiek/Zelda - Probably fine.
Ganondorf - Vaguely underpowered. I'm not even sure on down-b grounding anymore. D-tilt is fine though.
Toon Link - Underrated, but could still be slightly underpowered.
Samus - Needs some reworking.
Pit - Underpowered. F-tilt helps, but not enough.
ICs - FQPRJWGFWLNAWEGHSAHBVSAFIOAGHJLKAOKJGWIOHCZKJNF
ROB - Probably fine. Potentially underpowered, but I doubt it.
Kirby - Slightly underpowered.
Meta Knight - Fine.
DDD - Fine.
Olimar - Fine.
Fox - I think Fox is pretty sub-par actually; even with exploits removed Fox still loses harder on hit than others.
Falco - Falco kinda has the same problem as Fox, but he can play campy to mask it well. Not sure what I think about Falco. Like Samus, a depolarizing rework might be beneficial.
Wolf - See Fox, but slightly worse case.
Falcon - Underpowered, especially after up-b gets a needed nerf. Not awful, but needs help.
Pikachu - Slightly underpowered.
PT - Squirtle and Ivysuar are fine, Charizard slightly underwhelming.
Lucario - Slightly underpowered.
Jigglypuff - Underpowered, especially after nair removal. (Which was good.)
Marth - Fine. (After nerf.)
Ike - Probably fine.
Ness - Not sure.
Lucas - Probably fine. (With fixes.)
G&W - Fine. (After nerfs.) Matchups should be less polarized now.
Snake - Fine. (After nerfs.)
Sonic - Slightly underpowered.

For those curious, progress on our end is going pretty amazingly fast. I'm starting to get sick of staring at PSA and OpenSA2 actually!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

To be clear, we don't agree on all of those which is a big reason some things aren't going to happen. To me, buffing DK and Lucario further would be madness...

This is all the process though; we produce the best results when we find the middle ground on our perspectives.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yes, and apparently misspelling Sheik's name and forgetting ZSS entirely are part of that magical process for me.

 

[Linkshot]

ZSS is always forgotten because she's nowhere on the CSS.

 

[Eyada]

I tried what you suggested AA (merge Internal Build onto SD card w/ BBrawl already on it, answering yes to any file overwrites), but it didn't work. The game always freezes on the Stage Selection screen, accompanied by the lovely buzzing sound of a stalled Wii.

When merging the two, there was only one file conflict (gameconfig.txt), with the new version from the Internal Build overwriting the old one from the first BBrawl release.

Boot procedure is as follows:

SD card in, Brawl in. Launch Brawl.

Go to Stage Builder, wait. Stack Smash happens, Brawl dies. Run through the Gecko launcher, BBrawl launches.

Leave the SD card in (required for file replacement, yes?). Go to Character Select screen, pick characters, proceed to Stage Select screen, wait a few moments, Wii freezes.

Root level of the SD card is as follows:
5 objects:
3 Folders ("codes", "data", "private"), 1 .elf ("boot"), 1 .txt ("gameconfig")

Any simple fixes come to mind?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I copied Thinkaman's post's skeleton and filled it out myself, to give some feedback. I tried to keep it brief, so if you want me to elaborate on anyone, AA+Think, let me know. AA, you can talk to me in Irc if you'd like.

---
-Mario - He was originally really good, and now he got nerfed a bit. Probably midline, but I can't put my finger on where exactly.
-Luigi - Luigi is okay; the nerfs that came in the test build help, of course. I don't feel strongly about him.
-Peach - Probably good enough, could pass for something small. It's not like she was that bad in vBrawl.
-Bowser - Needs work. I still say he doesn't need all that much to be with everyone else, but it's clear that he needs more than he has.
-DK - A solid character, no changes.
-Diddy - No issues here.
-Yoshi - Could use some polishing, but removing his fair was a good step.
-Wario - Still a good character.
-Link - I would have him fairly low, if I had to make an actual tier list based on this test build. His arrows are still ridiculous, as is his upB. I do think Thinkaman hit the mark on his assessment.
-Sheik/Zelda - They are loving the sped up transformation time, that much is certain. Zelda -may need a little more love, but it's not a huge concern.
-Ganondorf - Underrated a ton by some, overrated a bit by others. He does like his test build Fair, as well as the nerfs (turtle especially), but more work should be looked into. Nothing drastic, unless you plan on removing a few of his old things, then something more might be warranted.
-Toon Link - Not entirely sure about TL. Whether he needs help or not is non-obvious.
-Samus - With the recent talk about her being reworked, I think she is in good hands if you guys follow through with what is planned.
-ZSS - Should be good, didnt play around with her Fsmash, though.
-Pit - In need of help, to be truthful. He's a bit polarising without a ledge mechanic implemented, too. Some buffs would be nice.
-ICs - I'm not entirely sure anymore. Sorry.
-ROB - A solid character.
-Kirby - Iffy on Kirby, however. Something small could be done, but I don't feel strongly about it.
-Meta Knight - He's still solid, just get ledges reworked.
-DDD - He should be okay. He's a little worse off, but overall solid.
-Olimar - A top contender, and likely a few polarizing matchups exist still because of him. Maybe a nerf/rework?
-Fox - I think Fox is just fine.
-Falco - Could be a nicer character with some rework, as Thinkaman suggested, but tread softly.
-Wolf - Just as Fox; okay.
-Falcon - He was pretty good when he still had his UpB, though I wouldn't say he's bad now. A little help should be given if you do plan on removing the upB buff. I like his rapid jab linking, though.
-Pikachu - Okay, leaning towards a little help.
-PT - Down B change was lovely. Ivysaur might need a bit more, unsure at this point, Squirtle is of course fine as is, and Charizard could enjoy being slightly better.
-Lucario - Pretty solid, as is.
-Jigglypuff - If I'm right in the assumption Dair isn't going to stay as strong, then some more help is warranted.
-Marth - Nerfed Fair is delicious. Should be okay now.
-Ike - Ike is just fine, though this is assuming he keeps the dsmash buff. If you do feel the need to buff him at all (or remove his dsmash), it should be small.
-Ness - Ness is A-Ok.
-Lucas - Uh, not sure. Working rPsi's code into it, and ignoring some of the issues that came up in the test build, he should be ok.
-G&W - Solid changes. Made him less polarizing by nerfing his turtle fully spaced, but made up for it with his Jab linking.
-Snake - Should be alright.
-Sonic - Needs some love, but honestly not as much as other troubled characters. Note, however, that I haven't tried out his test build dtilt.
---

Annnnnnnnd that's all of them. So far, I enjoyed this test build. I liked walled stages becoming more fair and a lot of the jab combos becoming worthwhile. The nerfs all seem appropriate, too. Good job.

Any idea when we will be seeing a new test build?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I think Lucas will definitely be fine after the jab-lock code I made, but I still feel like a slight u-air buff might help him out, it's a good move that should pack a punch, but it's a bit underwhelming. Lucas is still going to have trouble with a few MU's but with d-air to d-tilt it will make Marth and MK MU much more manageable b/c of how the move effs with shuttle loop and Marth is pretty easy to d-air to d-tilt lock if he messes up spacing a bit. Snake still seems pretty bad though b/c he easily out classes Lucas ground game. But with Snake's f-tilt nerfed even more, I feel like it might be more manageable.
Also just make sure d-air to d-tilt locks (AKA, give it back it's old angle with more BKB)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Aha, I know the issue Eyada, and it's my bad actually. I kinda put together the test build based on my personal files (and I use the HBC), and the "no custom stage" code wasn't included. This means smash stack will lock up the Wii when you pick the stage. This is the code:

046B841C 48000040

I posted the .txt for the code file a while back. I may edit this post later with an actual .gct file.

Also, Lucas's moves are being reverted... to the first Bbrawl release, not to the standard Brawl model. I think there's some confusion here, but this is how Lucas is an actually good character, not an overall bad character with a few good gimmicks (which is basically what he is in standard Brawl). I'm not really sure how jab locks are actually going to play out, and either way, I doubt it will really benefit Lucas.

We're looking into assorted issues though, and old concerns that resulted in endless circular arguments are known to us as concerns so please no repetition of that sort of business.

EDIT: Apparently, Thinkaman thinks it will work with Lucas anyway. I'm not sure.

 

[MKOwnage]

Yes, and apparently misspelling Sheik's name and forgetting ZSS entirely are part of that magical process for me.

Peach is fine. She needs no attention.

 

[The Milk Monster]

This is shaping up a lot. I enjoyed it before, but, I'm excited for the next release.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Jab lock code is going to have to be via a method that is very... non-intuitive, but I think I can make it work. What I need to know though is the exact frame window to land a jab lock after the first hit. That is, how long in the flopping window does another hit loop the flop? I'm using a rough estimate of 30 frames right now, but a very clean, exact number would be appreciated.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Of course Lucas' up air should hit hard, look at the size of his head!

 

[A2ZOMG]

As for people who think Falco is subpar...you have no idea how Falco plays at all.

Loss of CG makes him more manageable for several characters yes, but the way his D-throw has been altered gives him exactly what he needs as well. Falco's biggest problem is landing a KO move, and his D-throw is still complete bull**** in its ability to force a guessing game (works all the way up til 999%). If he merely guesses correctly at a KO percent, easy kill.

There's a lot of characters who would die to have something similar to Falco's D-throw at this point. Falco's D-throw is THE best example of what a good mixup is.

And this character is still INSANELY stupidly good at camping. That alone makes him solid.

Did anyone read my suggestion on how to fix Ganon WITHOUT a timing change?

As for Ike, buff the shield damage on his Jab and he'll be fine.

Bowser most importantly should have Up-B landlag reduced.

 

[shanus]

Jab lock code is going to have to be via a method that is very... non-intuitive, but I think I can make it work. What I need to know though is the exact frame window to land a jab lock after the first hit. That is, how long in the flopping window does another hit loop the flop? I'm using a rough estimate of 30 frames right now, but a very clean, exact number would be appreciated.

Our frame speed code I think fixed that to the exact frame. Not positive though.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Who said Falco was subpar? I don't think anybody did such a thing. In my post, I said Falco might be okay to look into for tweaks, similar to how Samus is being looked into; he could still very well be polarizing to some characters.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think Falco is very polarizing, in that none of his matchups should be **** in his favor for the most part, but he's definitely one of the better characters, and the way his D-throw works should be noted, since there are other characters besides him who have KO problems but are significantly worse at camping and for that matter setting up into a KO move.

 

[Steeler]

i think i have an idea of what ivysaur is, especially if it's something i've already suggested...

interested in seeing what mario's buff is, i really do want this character to be very good (like, high) but not with something like the overdone KO power he had before.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Guys, I have bad news.... that horrible, horrible thing that Jigglypuff can do out of Flame choke... it would seem that MK can do it as well Let's hope we don't find out how to actually do it

What horrible thing can she do? I know she can jump out of Flame Choke.

I'm pretty sure what happens is, instead of the "falling straight down" script, they go into the "tumbling" motion that happens after most attacks with hitstun. Though they probably shouldn't be able to jump if they're tumbling...

I'd say it requires further research, but I'm not sure why any of us would want to research it.

Can that be fixed?

 

[Lokee]

Characters that are fine:
Marth, Game and Watch, Luigi, Diddykong, Donkeykong, Wario, Snake, Rob, Toon Link, Lucario, Metaknight, Dedede, Peach, Wolf, Falco, Zero Suit Samus

Characters that need small tweaks
Mario- After KB nerfs needs small buffs. IMO Maybe a slight Fludd Buff Otherwise focus on his Gimping game a bit, OR make one of his throws more functional. Remove Dtilt buff,

Link- If his Arrows are toned down PERHAPS work with his recovery a bit I recall an idea of letting him tether after Up B or maybe make Up B hit harder. Gale Boomerang have more funtionality.

Zelda/Shiek- Shiek is fine. Zelda needs some tweaks. Din Fire less laggy either on Zelda or the move itself or maybe causes shield damage.

Samus- The Zair and Dtilt nerf will help signifgantly and I like the Jab link thing. It maybe just me but I think tone her Fsmash down just a bit.

Kirby- Needs a tiny buff. Maybe more damage on Nair or something. Still a fair char.

Pit- Like the Ftilt buff but may need a setup in Nair or a less SDIable Fsmash

Fox-I think he is good but maybe still hindered by his fastfall and light weight. Add Shield damage to Dair or maybe even adding it to Lazers so Fox has a better chance at poking through shield with other moves.

Sonic- New Dtilt is a awsome but lets add a Nair setup and Emergency Kill Bthrow.

Olimar- Still seems too overpolarizing to many characters. Either change him or help the chars deal with him more.

IceClimbers- A character that is basically immune to grounded grab attacks maybe still tipping the polarization scales too much.

Falcon- Slight nerf to UpB needed but compensate with a Side B that allows for more followups or a Dtilt that is more functional. Or maybe tack some Shield damage to Bair. Besides that Fine for the most part

Pikachu- Seems fine but might need a tiny buff here or there


Characters that Need something different.....:
Ike- Mixed on his case. Id say add Shield damage to Jab 1 and 2 and well as Fair and Filt. I also think he should keep the Dsmash change but nerf the knockback a bit. Also Make throw have more rewarding angles such as Dthrow have less growth to it.

Bowser- Poor Recovery and Huge Size still hinders him greatly. Either make throws more useful, Fire Breath faster or more functional, or add some Shield damage to Fair and Ftilt. OR work with his Recovery maybe make it function more like grounded fortress but weaker or somehow make it push enemies signifigantly away when caught in it.

Yoshi- Dont know but maybe needs some throw buffs which equates to better setups.

Pokemon Trainer: Switching speed up make him more diverse and flexible within his stamina mechanic.

Squirtle- Fine

Ivysaur- Still feels like the weak link of the three. Needs a Razor Leaf buff or Shield Damage added to Fair, Dtilt, Nair, or maybe Razor Leaf pick one or two.

Charizard- Feels more Balanced but needs one or two buffs perhaps in the areas of Fair, Ftilt, Uptilt, or Upsmash for a better OUTTA Shield option

Jigglypuff- Keep the Dair buff but make it less powerful or focus giving shield damage into her Bair and maybe re-add nair buff. Concerned about Diddy matchup

Ness - Stills suffers from Short Range, Sluggish Moves, and an awkward recovery. My suggestions is make PK fire happen faster, have less end lag or activate on more occasions (especially on shield) or perhaps make Fair or DashAtk safer on shield.

Lucas - Hard to say. Ill wait till the purposed fixes are in place

Ganondorf - Actually feels he's at average or slighly below that but still needs an at lease average Approach option or something to deal with the most polarizing of his matchups. IMO It could be adding Super Armor to Flamechoke, Making Jab faster but weaker, or work out somekind of method where his attacks have more Shield Stun......but yeah....its still difficult though..........Brawl Devs should have gotten him right in developement

Done for Now