Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon not being bad lol? Dude I **** people with this character in regular Brawl, but the thing is it's because I'm a much better player at prediction than most people. I play against a scrub Pit a lot and at first I would consistently 2stock him because I'm the better player (and Pit vs Ganon is like 7/3 Pit in regular Brawl lol). His gradual improvements are getting to the point where he usually gets me to the last stock, and actually can beat me despite me still being the better player by a huge margin ever since he started to learn how easy it is to edgeguard Ganon and dodge on reaction to most of Ganon's stuff. I only win some matches at this point because he still falls for dumb tricks and I predict his rolls a lot.

And Pit isn't even like super super amazing. Ganon is just terrible and has next to no options against solid characters once they learn how he works.

Vs Snake is also deceptively unbelievably horrible, now that I actually have a pro Snake to play against in my dorm. I mean...sure Ganon can juggle Snake and Snake doesn't jump a lot...but grenades REALLY suck for Ganon to deal with due to his large commitment on most moves, and Snake has this ability to just spotdodge 95% of whatever Ganon does and punish back with a F-tilt that outdamages over half of Ganon's moveset. It's really just impossible for Ganon to approach or attack safely at all against Snake, and he gets punished SEVERELY if he doesn't hit, and he loses in close range since Snake outspeeds him and ***** defenses much harder.

None of Ganon's buffs really seriously help him in those matchups...well the D-tilt buff is alright against Pit. The F-air buff is mostly useless against these two characters for the large part since they will spend more time ****** him on the ground. Wizkick buff is eh, it doesn't kill early enough to matter. Everything else that Ganon has is just unfairly hard to apply against these characters. Yeah at best, the F-air buff makes him better than Ike imo, and Ike sucks anyway and really didn't change nearly as much as other characters did.

Basically the way I have to play Ganon to win against a lot of characters is I throw out random stuff and PRAY that it hits. Until I can say that I'm winning because I'm playing to solid safe character advantages and not by just being insanely good at mindgames and reading mistakes, I'm not satisfied with this character.

This isn't like other competitive fighters where almost everything is hugely punishable on the correct read. Smash in general is dominated by the fact that there are a lot of attacks that are really really safe when spaced correctly, and it's more significant in Brawl to consider safety when characters must usually rely on trapping to score consecutive hits. Ganon only has two attacks that can be called safe when applied "correctly", as his B-air (autocanceled) and U-smash are safe on block, which almost never happens due to their crap hitboxes.

To make a character less safe and still unique, they just need fewer options for being safe than other characters. That is how Snake operates.

 

[Steeler]

for the love of all that is balanced and fair, nerf falcon's up b.

 

[Eldiran]

for the love of all that is balanced and fair, nerf falcon's up b.

There's nothing wrong with his Up+B... Unless it was secretly buffed in the new test version.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

for the love of all that is balanced and fair, nerf falcon's up b.

YES!

I just wanted to say that. I don't necessarily agree with a nerf, but it IS wicked powerful OoS.

 

[Steeler]

are you kidding, an OoS option that kills before 100%?!? on the other side of any normal stage?! for the first time i got a lot of bbrawl friendly time in with the crew here and that's the one thing that sorely stood out.

jiggly's dair is **** but i'm not sure if that's the best way to handle the move.

ganondorf is fun, he's a lot better but probably still not as good as the majority of the cast. he has the most reward on smart play though, which is a cool character concept. it still might be too easy for some characters to wall him so i'd like SA on flame choke. it fits the character's concept imo, on a good read/prediction of an attack you can punish them for it.

i'd love to see ally's falcon in balanced brawl. falcon is pretty legit, his frame traps and tech chases are quite good. but then again i was playing the dorf, i'm sure mk or jiggs could just attack out of that. BUT UP B IS TOO STRONG omg

PT looks okay, mid to me. charizard doesn't have very many good matchups on his own and ivysaur's ground game is still not a very effective spacing tool. ftilt is simply too punishable, it needs a shield buff or SDI buff or something. dtilt having a marth/mk-like IASA frame would be interesting. bullet seed buff seems to work well, but then again it was used against a wolf. squirtle's the same as always, he's fine.

wario is balanced, he's not top anymore but probably high. maybe buff his dash attack.

wolf looks good, the nair buff works pretty well. probably mid to high but he's viable.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, SA on Flame Choke startup is probably barely enough to make Ganon competitively viable compared to the rest of the cast. I'd have the SA frames go from Frame 1 -> 2-3 frames after the startup of the hitbox on both aerial and grounded version.

Since if the idea is that he can counter safely spaced attacks on reaction/observation/prediction, then at least he's not getting poked to death...as horribly (vertical spacing will still be a major headache for him, but at least he has F-air buff to compensate), and that spacing your usual **** on him is no longer clearly the best option. Vs Olimar probably still will suck a ton for Ganon, but a change like SA on flame choke would basically make Ganon comparable to typical heavyweights in other competitive fighters in that he would have moves that counter conventional defensive options. Basically Ganon will actually be able to maintain a good position in the situation that either character does nothing with a change like that.

Ohsnap, something wickedly fun occurred to me. SA frames on Flame Choke >>> getup attacks. Well I don't know yet if Flame Choke will just propel Ganon too far to grab before invul frames end, but still, it's a fun thought.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

for the love of all that is balanced and fair, nerf falcon's up b.

QFT

IMO it's just too rediculous and it beats sheild.

 

[Lokee]

Well Murder Choke's hitboxes come out pretty late. Aerial is about frame 18 and ground is about frame 15. So the SA frames would have to be pretty early to make an impression. Maybe about 3 frames of SA for both version possibly starting around frames 2-4 but IMO it should be starting around frames 3 or 4 which in one PSA I have laying around is the moment in the animation when Ganon raises his hand up into the air. SA for the aerial murder choke should come out eariler then its gronded version to make sort of aerial breaker and make it more dangerous against aggressive edgeguarders. but thats just me.

Shield Damage should either go to Fair or Nair but I wouldnt know how useful that would be considering both those moves dont short hop autocancel and have good amount of lag on landing but maybe if is signifigant enough it will allow poking from Dtilt

Also if thier will be not timing changes to Jab then Shield Damage would be good on that move as well

Edit: I agree on Falcon's Up B, needs to be toned down just a bit. If youre good enough you can predict a foe ledge jumping and Up B them to death. Maybe as compensation add some Shield damage to Dtilt...

 

[Naraku]

The bombs blowing up on contact would be a hit box change right? Anyways with out contact its just a joke. Can you at least make them blow up faster so it may actually become usable?

 

[Linkshot]

You have to edit the article directly for that.

And it would be, in all purposes, a timing change.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Have you tried out Bbrawl Samus Naraku? Her bombs do 13% which is more damage than most jabs/tilts/dash attacks/throws. This means if you drop a bomb in a mid-range neutral position on the ground and air control away from the opponent (you can move a bit while you're in the morph ball animation), if they move in and hit you, you win the damage trade and get a small positional advantage. It's pretty handy; when I'm playing Samus, I definitely use her bombs and lot and actually get rewarded for it.

In general, there seems to be a consensus that Samus is pretty good right now too, though probably a bit too polarizing. I think the bombs fall into the category of things we got right on her though; she was a pretty flawed character to start with so I think we made good progress on a difficult character.

---

Steeler, we see each other on IRC often enough; I'll catch you and try to figure out in-depth what you're getting into on some of these things. Hearing you got Wichita together for a good chunk of play on this is good.

---

So, uh, Thinkaman, what's up?

 

[A2ZOMG]

The bombs blowing up on contact would be a hit box change right? Anyways with out contact its just a joke. Can you at least make them blow up faster so it may actually become usable?

Dude...I play against a good Samus all the time, and if you're a Samus user, I can't understand why you don't like Bombs. Bombs alone make her like 10x better in this game.

Like I'm really serious. When she lays a Bomb, it suddenly becomes unfavorable to pressure her, and she now has an opportunity to turn the tables on you and pressure you back if the Bomb is right on your shield. They're like grenades, except they don't hurt Samus. They can basically be used for almost the same things in making approaches really difficult and risky, avoiding pressure (especially juggles!), and comboing into stuff.

Bombs are MAD gay. The huge damage on them now makes Samus even more daunting to approach in general, and besides that she can KILL in this game. Like really early. D-tilt in the standard release kills at 114% (Mario no DI on FD, stronger than most Up-smashes). Charge Shot and Down-angled F-smash can be used to gimp people at like 90% or something if you're fairly close to the edge. Oh yeah, Down-angled F-smash needs a tonedown anyhow, it's a bit too overpowered and matchup overcentralizing, really hurting those characters who already get gimped pretty easily by her.

Samus is like ridiculously good in this game. I personally see her as top5 easily. She's a really difficult character to approach or pressure who can do a lot of really safe damage especially since you can't powershield her Z-air on reaction. She survives forever since she's heavy and ungimpable. And those KO power buffs make her an extremely well-rounded character.

 

[Steeler]

yeah, i think samus needs a slight tonedown on dtilt and fsmash, maybe to vbrawl levels. her projectiles kill better, her throws kill better, dair is better, dsmash better...

 

[Naraku]

Super sad panda face :/

 

[Steeler]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9400288&postcount=716

you know you want to

 

[Thinkaman]

So, my internet cut out. I don't exactly feel like I can contribute much to begin with sense my wii (and other wii) are still broken. Tell you what, I'll investigating fixing them today.

I also might see someone with a working Wii this weekend at some point, so there may be hope for me being more useful than a rock in the near future.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I also might see someone with a working Wii this weekend at some point, so there may be hope for me being more useful than a rock in the near future.

At least you can hold our papers down if your a rock :D

To not totally waste a post, I just want to remind you guys exactly how **** you made Lucas' d-air in the test build. Also, change Lucas' D-tilt back to vBrawl and add just a little more BKB, it would make it a better move at higher percents and would force a get-up (big thing Lucas mains want out of BBrawl)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Is Lucas's dair significantly different from the first release in the test build? I played with some numbers; this is for testing so I'm really not sure exactly how they pan out. Explaining exactly what the issue with Lucas's dair is, against which victims it has better or worse behavior (when making something internally, I may get it to work great against Bowser but accidentally make it horrible against Jigglypuff, that sort of thing), etc. I kept going on about wanting to hear feedback about that test build specifically for things like that. I didn't carefully tweak stuff in it; I kinda put stuff in experimentally that seemed like a good idea with the idea that this is for testing stuff.

So far three silly bugs were found though, simply things I missed putting in when converting to .pac format that I meant to. So I guess that's been good so far.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm the one who took care of the nitty gritty numerical details on Lucas in the previous release, after discussing things a few times with Galeon.

What's the problem with d-tilt? The vBrawl version is a *terrible* move except that it can lock, which of course has been removed globally. So... it's just a terrible move. Like... the knockback is so low for the animation speed that the frame advantage on hit is something absurd like -7 or -6 at low %s. Galeon pointed out that Snake can u-tilt Lucas out of d-tilt.

I changed d-tilt so that the frame advantage was consistantly +2 against all characters. This meant a few things:

-D-tilt to jab was now a true combo.
-D-tilt to d-tilt was interruptible ONLY by powershielding or SDI, and otherwise an infinite.
-D-tilt could be mixed into a grab consistently, now that it FORCES shields.
-D-tilt still has low enough knockback that if it causes a trip, they are always in range to f-smash.

I'm not sure what about this is bad or what changes you are asking for. When I play BBrawl Lucas, anytime I get in against someone I do a quick d-tilt-to-d-tilt-to-jab... that's a 25% damage combo that comes out in 3 frames!

I'm also curious about dair, what changed about it?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Lucas' mind blew out... that should have been explained since the release, aside/instead of the tons of numbres (that most people miss because they don't are interested on reading those specific changes...).

Then, just means that most people aren't also interested on messing arround with what kind of things can/cannot be made with the changes...

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Wait, how are you getting D-tilt-to-D-tilt-to-jab, do your friends not SDI at all O.O

@Thinkman, D-tilt was changed in the test build IIRC. Also, I came up with a "code" that can cause a jab lock for the first hit, but the second hit and so on will be sped-up. AA said that he saw nothing wrong with this and will possibly implement it. Also, I think that if you just add BKB to what Lucas had in vBrawl it would resemble's vBrawl's most where it's a move that gets better at comboing at higher percents to set-up for psudo-kill moves like f-tilt. At low percents Lucas should never be using this move in vBrawl, and as the goal of BBrawl is, you should make BBrawl as close to vBrawl as possible.
Here is some data from vBrawl about Lucas' D-tilt:

~D-Tilt Hit Advantage~​

Mario:

[FONT="Courier New"]0: -8
30: -7
50: -6
70: -5
90: -4
110: -3
130: -2
150: -1
170: 0
190: 1
200: 2[/FONT]

Bowser:

[FONT="Courier New"]0: -8
30: -7
50: -6
70: -5
90: -4
110: -3
130: -2
150: -2
170: -1
190: 0
200: 1

[/FONT]Jigglypuff:

0: -8
20: -7
40: -6
60: -5
80: -3
100: -2
120: -1
140: 0
160: 1
180: 2
200: 4

As you can see, as Lucas hits you into a higher pecent he gains a frame advantage, the only problem is, is that it doens't have enough BKB. At higher pecetns it won't combo into it's self as well though due to it's higher KB so that you can use it to combo into other moves like f-tilt. This was the moves true purpose, but the move was poorly coded.

D-air can't lift the opponet off the ground. It made the move ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE against charactes like Jigglypuff. Change it back b/c there was no reason to change it at all. Anyway, I'm going to do some friendlies tomorrow (hopefully) with some friends, so can I have the .pac before you changed it to set knockback for Lucas so we can test the other changes?

 

[JOE!]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9400288&postcount=716

you know you want to

no, i want this instead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuIiG72hOfA

 

[A2ZOMG]

Stuff about Lucas's D-tilt

Keep in mind, the exact same thing goes for Mario's D-tilt. Except it actually works as intended in vBrawl.

in vBrawl Mario's D-tilt can be used at KO percents to put people in a position that forces an airdodge, which can be used to of course land a kill move.

In BBrawl Mario's D-tilt has too much knockback to set up into anything at high percents, and is pretty much outclassed by U-tilt completely.

 

[Intro1827]

So, uh, I can't get this to work. The .txt file is too big to make a .gct file using codemanager, and when I use the .gct that I download, the game freezes =/
I'm using a NA Brawl on a PAL Wii, if that matters, and I'd love it if I didn't have to use the Stage Builder thing

 

[Mit]

Whooooah. I forgot about this forum because of how much I've been digging the hacking scene as of late, and the test build for the next version's out :O I'm gonna have to grab it. Some changes I'm looking forward to in it.


Also, Falcon's up-B is fine The character himself still has many disadvantages (absolutely no priority) and large rewards like that are good for him. Plus, isn't Link's up-B an OoS option as well? Link's is even better, and both characters were in similar standing before BBrawl.

It's definitely one of Falcon's better killing options though, and it's a part of the matchup people have to learn. I do it offstage a lot, which can easily kill at lower percents. Punishing Wario jumping off his bike with it is the best

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Intro, it sounds like you don't have gameconfig.txt in the root of the SD card and are using an outdated version of the code manager.

 

[Mit]

Oh, some quick questions.

Have stage changes also been moved to .pacs? I've got stages all over the place in my codeset, so I scrapped the previous codes you had to change boundaries on stages like Corneria so that replacement stages worked fine. I do, however, want those stages back, mainly Corneria (small-boundary Corneria is terrible D: ).

Also, you mentioned the test build is incomplete. Does this mean it's incomplete as far as new changes go, or do all of the characters still atleast have all their old BBrawl properties implemented? (I believe you mentioned Samus didn't have jab changes, does she have any changes?)

 

[rPSIvysaur]

@Mit, I also think Link's Up-B OoS is just overpowered too. It only gives more reason to camp in sheild.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Difference between Link and Falcon is that Link is WAY more gimpable/ledgehogable than CF.
Hero's Spin is fine imo, but Falcon Dive needs a little tonedown.

I was thinking on this the other day: What if MatchTornado goes back to its original damage/angle (everything but last hit), but make it more SDIable? It will help a lot on matchups against heavy characters that survives a lot, and that now are bad for him. And also, will help against Olimar, that is hard to keep out of ground with all of MK's nerfs.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Does Meta Knight need help, really? Mach Tornado is, despite what you might think, still probably a decent move just because of what ridiculous shield pressure it is.

I'm working on moving stage changes to .pac. I've had serious issues with editing Mushroomy Kingdom's scrolling animation that make me not really enjoy working on it (I'm not sure if I'm running into a bug in Brawlbox or if there is some other issue or maybe even both at once; that really, really doesn't help).

It is a mostly complete translation (there are some errors that have been pointed out, the changes to Mario bthrow and DDD dthrow somehow got left out, complete accident that will be rectified in whatever the next test version is). What is incomplete are a few things. For one, some characters that are definitely being changed for the next real release were just kinda ignored. For instance, Samus is just a straight port of Bbrawl release 1; that will not be how she is in the next real release. Also, I didn't finish cleaning out the frame modifier code (still need to look into that jab lock fix business and also probably bit the bullet and put those grab release changes into every_single_pac which will be very obnoxious to do) or doing all the stage business even for just translation purpose (but the stages work like they did in the first release; they just use .gct codes that will be removed for the next real release). For three, none of the changes pretend to be polished or considered with the usual level of care; obviously that's not going to be the case in the real release.

 

[Linkshot]

Honestly...Just Frame Speed Mod the abusable releases.

This allows Bowser to keep his awesome Grab Release game while removing infinites.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

For ground release all you have to do is change Lucas' and Ness'.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I have a lot of reasons for doing things the way I am; grab release combos in general are fairly bogus and do nothing but hurt the game. It's kinda like the aerial footstool combos like this; sure some of them are perhaps only somewhat bad, but really, this is the sort of stuff that falls into the "these combos were obviously not developer intended and further actually hurt the game". Don't let the fact that Bowser is bad in standard Brawl obscure that fact. Also, I have to change every jump break for definitely sure so changing every ground break isn't much more effort than that.

---

Thinkaman, you should get messengers working again one way or another (new name or figure out what happened to the old one) so we can strategize again.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

>.> No one except Bowser can combo out of ground release. So you could just decrease Lucas' and Ness' and increase Bowser's and everything would be fine for ground release since there would be no combos.

 

[JOE!]

>.> No one except Bowser can combo out of ground release. So you could just decrease Lucas' and Ness' and increase Bowser's and everything would be fine for ground release since there would be no combos.

yoshi has GR chains and some comboes with Eggs...but i cant think of anyone else really

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I was talking about ground releases.

 

[Atseva]

So my buddy went online while I was gone and says that a custom map was downloaded for some reason and it is undeletable. This breaks my balanced brawl now, so how do I delete this custom map? I hate standard brawl.

Map name is "I Heart Smash" it sucks btw. Kind of insulting lol.

When you go to stage builder and go to I<3S the delete button has a cross-through-circle and you can't click it. ; ;

Halp prz!

 

[Linkshot]

Step 1) Turn off Smash Service
Step 2) Wait until tomorrow

 

[A2ZOMG]

You don't have to just wait an entire day. You can go to settings and "Erase Data" to eliminate "Vault Data" which resets Brawl data to giving you the three normal custom stages that the game comes with, which you can then delete on your own.

Make sure you back up any valuable vault data (replays, snapshots) on an SD card before doing that however.

 

[deepseadiva]

"I Heart Smash"

lawl