Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[rPSIvysaur]

I rofl'd at what you you did for Lucas.

 

[Thinkaman]

I wish G&W got a cool/useless BBrawl trick

I'd really like to find something cool yet usually useless for DK, Diddy, Lucario (Double Team?) Marth, G&W, and Snake

DDD is a GREAT example of a change that is really awesome yet mostly useless.

Whoops, I forgot Pikachu's main change. Not a big deal though.

 

[Rykoshet]

Judging from those changes. Bowser and ganon probably got the greatest boost. Fox is impossible to gimp now and can literally come back from any angle. Mario is pretty much god. Yoshi fell kind of hard, if that's the only change to ike as of now, meh.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

So Bowser's new Fsmash kills Mario at 32% fully charged (CPU), and 74% uncharged from the center of FD. Wow.

Jigglypuff's items are an awesome addition. Having issues killing? The pitfall should help!

I'm worried that Ivysaur is gonna suck again. His new Dair is cool and all, but entirely too laggy to make up for removing his upB, it seems. I know you had to make it so that he couldn't infinitely rise, but the cooldown on it just seems a bit too much. This is what it seems like from a brief play with it.

Yoshi's shield damage sounds ridiculous. His dair should break shields with no issue.
Mario's walljump isnt as impressive as I thought it to be, but it's certainly handy. For clarification, you can only do it once before landing.

I like the new opening screen, but I'm not a huge fan of the stage select screen. I miss Rumblefalls, even if it glitched PT

I'll also mull some BBrawl tricks for those guys, but for right now im still playtesting.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I automatically am a little bit shocked by the change to Jigglypuff, and I really don't like this at all considering that several of those items can really do really ridiculous things, but anyhow I'll be happy to test things out when I get the time (which uh, I don't have enough of lol).

Also, I'd like to know what you mean by hitbox adjustments on Pit.

As for DK, Diddy, Lucario, Marth, G&W, and Snake hmmmm...

G&W's Brawl trick should involve a change to one or more of the Judgement numbers. Maybe you can possibly copy something the Brawl minus team did.

As for Marth, the best idea I can think of is like...making the 4th hit of upwards DB have a freeze effect, and some other touches to the last hit of DB on his other versions (flame element on forwards? Wind effect on downwards that pulls people outside of range into it? Dunno to be honest), but the move otherwise should have a tiny damage nerf.

Diddy, make the fully charged Peanut Popgun (the one that doesn't have a hitbox) make him drop an edible Peanut item.

As for Lucario...maybe heavy armor 7 on Extremespeed? When I think about how nothing is supposed to interrupt priority moves in Pokemon games, that would kinda make sense.

I really don't have any seriously good ideas for Donkey Kong and Snake. The one thing that comes to mind for Donkey Kong to me is N-air IASA into aerial Up-B. And Snake...idk electric element on first hit F-tilt.

 

[Thinkaman]

Judging from those changes. Bowser and ganon probably got the greatest boost. Fox is impossible to gimp now and can literally come back from any angle. Mario is pretty much god. Yoshi fell kind of hard, if that's the only change to ike as of now, meh.

Actually I think Wolf got the biggest boost, maybe Falcon too except that up-b is nerfed.

Remember that Fox and Wolf are still just as easy to gimp if they don't have their double jump. Fox never really had *that* hard of a time when he had his DJ anyway.

Mario is god? Walljumping out of up-b really isn't that useful, even Link's recovery buff is better. Keep in mind we toned down some of his KO power buffs.

Yoshi is actually pretty scary against sheilds... bair and dair stab so easily now.

As for Ike, it really is a powerful change. Eruption is like a good counter now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If I'm analyzing this correctly, Mario's buff to Up-B means it's now much harder to edgehog him on neutrals. Is that what you were thinking of Rykoshet?

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm worried that Ivysaur is gonna suck again. His new Dair is cool and all, but entirely too laggy to make up for removing his upB, it seems. I know you had to make it so that he couldn't infinitely rise, but the cooldown on it just seems a bit too much. This is what it seems like from a brief play with it.

I actually think it's slightly better in terms of recovery. Remember that the up-b still failed if they grabbed the ledge with proper timing, and was useless if they had any sort of regrab technique to refresh invincibility.

I like the new opening screen, but I'm not a huge fan of the stage select screen. I miss Rumblefalls, even if it glitched PT

Rumble Falls should still be there on the Extra Stages page, in between Green hill Zone and Temple.

I automatically am a little bit shocked by the change to Jigglypuff, and I really don't like this at all considering that several of those items can really do really ridiculous things, but anyhow I'll be happy to test things out when I get the time (which uh, I don't have enough of lol).

Keep in mind how terrible Jigglypuff's item throws are. She might be the only character who can't kill with a freezie. We actually added the Pitfall because it turned out to be too underwhleming.

Also, I'd like to know what you mean by hitbox adjustments on Pit.

Ampharos took care of that this afternoon, I can pull up the numbers for you if you want in a moment to see exactly what it was.

Also, if anyone wanted to know we can't IASA into specific moves, including specials--only categories like "aerial specials" or "footstools".

 

[deepseadiva]

Hrm. >____>

I dunno how I feel about sharing Mr. Saturn with Jigglypuff. Probably negatively.

 

[Thinkaman]

If I'm analyzing this correctly, Mario's buff to Up-B means it's now much harder to edgehog him on neutrals. Is that what you were thinking of Rykoshet?

Ohshi, does this mean he can stall on some stages?

No, the existing walljump limits in the game are still in place.

-There is a minimum time to walljump again i nthe same direction you walljumped in last.
-After the 2nd, every successive walljump's distance is cut in half.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I am uploading a video right now of Falcon Kick. Wow, you guys should have me playtest x)

FALCONFALCONFALCONFALCONFALCON

 

[Thinkaman]

Hrm. >____>

I dunno how I feel about sharing Mr. Saturn with Jigglypuff. Probably negatively.

I think in the end Mr. Saturn will always go back to his true gal. Jigglypuff can't even glide toss, and I mean, have you seen Peach's trunk? She ain't gonna lose her man packing that around.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Keep in mind how terrible Jigglypuff's item throws are. She might be the only character who can't kill with a freezie. We actually added the Pitfall because it turned out to be too underwhleming.

So...now I'm wondering what this means against people who manage to catch those items. =P

Ampharos took care of that this afternoon, I can pull up the numbers for you if you want in a moment to see exactly what it was.

Would be appreciated.

Also, if anyone wanted to know we can't IASA into specific moves, including specials--only categories like "aerial specials" or "footstools".

Okay so wait...what do you mean by 'only categories like "aerial specials" or "footstools".' I'm having trouble understanding something, so maybe reword a bit?

So like, I was wondering what you thought of DK's N-air canceling into aerial Up-B, so is it or is it not feasible?

 

[Thinkaman]

So...now I'm wondering what this means against people who manage to catch those items. =P

It means terrible things for Jigglypuff.

Would be appreciated.

Dash Attack: 100/20 -> 100/30
U-tilt last hit: 70/60 -> 50/60
D-smash last hit: 90/X -> 100/X, angle from 75-> 361

Okay so wait...what do you mean by 'only categories like "aerial specials" or "footstools".'

So like, I was wondering what you thought of DK's N-air canceling into aerial Up-B, so is it or is it not feasible?

So like, we could make nair interruptible with any aerial special on any given frame we wanted, but not up-b specifically.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANULNPAl4h0
Enjoy his moves.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You could make it cancelable into only up-b
You just have to make it cancel into a special if you're holding up or just make it change action into up-b if B is pressed during the move.
:3

 

[Rykoshet]

Mario is god? Walljumping out of up-b really isn't that useful, even Link's recovery buff is better. Keep in mind we toned down some of his KO power buffs.

His recovery was always only okay, it was pretty hoggable in spite of the fact that it was straight invincible on startup and disjointed as ****. If mario's aim is FOR the wall/lip of a stage, there's no challenging that now.

As for Ike, it really is a powerful change. Eruption is like a good counter now.

It always was the good counter. That's why people straight avoid attacking it if they see it charging up. That doesn't change here. This gives ike 1 more options to get out of relentless strings but it serves the same purpose it always did, eating a hit you know is coming and throwing out a hitbox instead of just trying to stuff a hit. It's practical use didn't change with just some super armor frames. I much would have rathered the extra super armor frames going onto the startup of aether to make it a viable OOS and less gimpable option.

 

[Linkshot]

Escalator, when I was testing it before the Dive nerf, this string:

Aer Falcon Kick -> Falcon Kick -> Falcon Dive
Did 57%, fresh, and killed on the second string.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@Rykoshet: I actually Up-B out of shield sporadically with Ike in regular Brawl since it has pretty good range and does massive damage (good for punishing fairly laggy moves that are outside of grab range), but your point makes sense.

 

[Rykoshet]

I do it out of shield myself for the same reason, which is why having super armor on startup would be helpful. It'd be the heavy character's concept of dolphin slash, but not actually kill.

 

[Thinkaman]

You could make it cancelable into only up-b
You just have to make it cancel into a special if you're holding up or just make it change action into up-b if B is pressed during the move.
:3

B-stick says hai.

 

[CountKaiser]

Just wondering, how potent are the Ness shield damage changes?

 

[deepseadiva]

omg where is my sd card

 

[Thinkaman]

Just wondering, how potent are the Ness shield damage changes?

Pretty potent--it's slightly at least double. Fair almost always shield stabs.

 

[uhmuzing]

OMG! Are the changes in this new test build originating from vBrawl, or the BBrawl Standard Release? And can this be installed without Homebrew like the Standard Release can?

Note that download package includes Smash Stack and a .gct code file that includes Disable Custom Stages.

Does this mean that custom stages can exist on the Wii's memory this time, or not? Sorry, don't know **** about "coding" and "file" stuff. xD

 

[Thinkaman]

OMG! Are the changes in this new test build originating from vBrawl, or the BBrawl Standard Release? And can this be installed without Homebrew like the Standard Release can?

These changes are in addition to the standard release changes except where otherwise noted. The small set of recent test changes (such as some linking jabs) are also included except where otherwise noted.

And yes, the codeset uploaded has Smash Stack included like the previous release.

Does this mean that custom stages can exist on the Wii's memory this time, or not? Sorry, don't know **** about "coding" and "file" stuff. xD

If you are using Smash Stack to load without Homebrew Channel, then yes--Smash Stack requires the Wii to have no custom stages to work. However, if you load without Smash Stack (through Homebrew Channel) you are free to leave custom stages on and play without the code that disables them.

Ryko, I know Counter sucks--that's why we tried to improve Eruption rather than it, it's never going to be good. Playtests showed it to be pretty powerful, and we are interested to see how it is used further.

 

[uhmuzing]

*grabs SD card*

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A few quick comments...

The Ike change is pretty awesome, especially in juggle situations. Ike can get his armor up decently fast, and if he armors something with the charge he punishes basically everything on reaction with a very powerful hit (except grabs, sleep element moves, and slip element moves of course). This is what I meant by addressing concerns; Ike is pretty ridiculous to keep juggled for any period of time like this. Attacking him is just so risky, and not attacking is basically just letting him down based on what I've seen (especially since he can Quick Draw whichever way he wants to get away from his opponents in these situations as well).

Yoshi's Egg Roll armor makes the move really legitimate, moreso than you'd think. You see Yoshi plow through Samus's tether attack or Mr. Game & Watch's turtle and... wow. I was playing a Yoshi just yesterday, and he was making the move scary. It was pretty impressive.

To be clear, this version actually has jab locks possible so it's better for those characters than the jab lock code will be. If you want to get accurate data for the eventual release though, please just don't do full jab locks, only use them to combo into other moves.

There were some really terrible changes internally that I might chronicle someday. That Pit was just awful!

A few changes didn't get quite noted by Thinkaman. Pit's dsmash hit 1 has a slight buff to kbg (90 -> 95), and R.O.B.'s Arm Rotor now hits every 9 frames instead of every 10 frames which should make it somewhat safer on hit though it's not perfect.

This release can be run without the homebrew channel just like the standard release could; sorry the first test build was so unfriendly to non-advanced users. Follow the same steps to run it that you did for the standard release; that means delete your custom stages (if you're a HBC channel user, you don't need to do that but do need to remove smash stack).

 

[uhmuzing]

I'm assuming that I should get rid of the Standard Release stuff in my SD card before I download the stuff for the test build. I'm not exactly sure where to start though. I've already gone ahead and deleted the gameconfig.txt and the boot.elf file in the root fo the card, and also the rsbe01.gct in the Codes folder. Should I have deleted these, and if so, do I need to do anything else before I start downloading?

Also, I'm sorry, but what are the details for getting this on my SD card properly? I notice there seem to be more files than the standard release.

EDIT: Well, I placed the files to where I believed they should be. Hoping this'll work.....

EDIT (2): Well.... the new stage selection screen looks nice. Unfortuneately, that seems to be the only thing that's working. All the characters are in their vBrawl forms..... Spear Pillar is back to vBrawl. Also, the Waiting Room looks like the menu screen on the selection screen. I dunno if that was intentional or not, and Hanenbow is back, though it's on the Melee stages with the other banned stages. The title screen's normal.

I'm gonna look at what I did to the SD card. I probably put the files in incorrectly.

 

[Rykoshet]

Ike is pretty ridiculous to keep juggled for any period of time like this. Attacking him is just so risky, and not attacking is basically just letting him down based on what I've seen (especially since he can Quick Draw whichever way he wants to get away from his opponents in these situations as well).

It didn't really change the juggle game since most aerials used for juggling need to be dodged or defended against on prediction and not reaction. You have to predict whether or not your opponent will commit, you don't see most juggle aerials start and go "oh well I should avoid it now", or you have an aerial that's fast enough to throw out to not care either way. All this changed is just how much you can get away with waiting, it doesn't put you in any advantageous position since the hitbox on eruption is still not any faster than any other option he would use to get out of juggles. The reason ike gets juggled isn't because he didn't have super armor early enough, it's because he doesn't have a hitbox that comes out fast enough to throw out, land, and then get the hell out. This covers overaggressive jugglers, but anyone that attacks that relentlessly can just be dodged through anyway. The smart ones that bait air dodges and understand that they can wait to see what ike is going to do THEN juggle him aren't going to get caught by this enough for it to actually affect matchup ratios since the people who have the easiest time juggling ike are the ones who cover all options based on a fundamental speed difference (meta, marth). A 30 frame attack gives either of those characters more than enough time to be like "wow screw that" and just not throw the aerial, or dodge, or jump away.

 

[A2ZOMG]

At least Ike does have the QD buff to get away from what would otherwise be ridiculously easy U-throw juggles. Although yeah...he can't safely attack anyone when being juggled.

By the way, I'd like to know how long the invincibility lasts on wizkick.

 

[Linkshot]

What happened to Wind God Pit? D:

Spoiler

May I have the rights to give Brawl- that idea?

 

[Rykoshet]

At least Ike does have the QD buff to get away from what would otherwise be ridiculously easy U-throw juggles.

Yeah I already used it to get away in mid-air without committing to a dodge, which is another reason I find this eruption thing to "get out of juggles" pretty lackluster.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Dragonblooded, you definitely placed the files incorrectly; that sounds like file replacement isn't finding anything, but the .gct files are working. Specifically, you should have the filepath, if your computer reads the SD card as F drive, F:/private/wii/app/RSBE/pf and F:/private/wii/app/RSBE/pfmenu2. Also, be sure to leave your SD card in when you play; the files are loaded from the SD card on the fly and not just on boot. The files include some texture hacks that will make the stage select screen look a bit more natural that aren't being loaded for you right now.

In my experience, you can typically respond to people who wait to see what you do by just using obnoxious air control and/or Quick Draw, and you almost always get down without getting hit. I mean, they can either get next to your and hit you, or they can let you get to the ground safely. There are prediction games involving when they choose to do things (you referring largely to them choosing to attack later as opposed to sooner), but in the end, these are their only two real options.

 

[Rykoshet]

Most characters have better aerial mobility than ike and a quick draw escape is just that, an escape. It still doesnt change that ike does not have a viable hit to get out of juggles, which is fine. If the person waits and you quick draw away it still invalidates even having eruption as an option.

 

[uhmuzing]

Dragonblooded, you definitely placed the files incorrectly; that sounds like file replacement isn't finding anything, but the .gct files are working. Specifically, you should have the filepath, if your computer reads the SD card as F drive, F:/private/wii/app/RSBE/pf and F:/private/wii/app/RSBE/pfmenu2. Also, be sure to leave your SD card in when you play; the files are loaded from the SD card on the fly and not just on boot.

That last part was would've been nice to know earlier lol. That was the one thing that kept it from working; I instinctively remove it after booting since it freezes the Wii on the Standard Release, or does it not?

Anyway, I'll explore it more thoroughly tomorrow. The title looks neat, and Falcon's DownB cancel is great. Thanks a bunch!

 

[Gimpyfish62]

this is all quite interesting

 

[Mr. Escalator]

For those who haven't had a chance to play this new test build, I uploaded a video showcasing the new Title and Stage Select screens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ_KvPoNjhM&fmt=18

This doesn't showcase the new Random Select Screen, where you set which stages you randomly select. Hopefully, this will entice you to check it out for yourself! Enjoy this little "teaser" showcase, I will be getting a more substantial video showing the radical BBrawl tricks tomorrow.

 

[Lokee]

My intial analysis on the Test Build. Just going to skip the character who were changed very little

Link- Still Gimpable but now recovery feels faster and more flexible. It may be possible to stall a bit in the air since by doing Upb, Zair, Up, Zair etc. however its sluggish so maybe of little use.

Bowser- Fsmash with super armor and safe on block it pretty neat. PLUS EXPLOSION!!

Peach- Cant really say. Peach mains?

Zero Suit Samus- Ditto cant say

Mario- Makes recovery slighty more flexiable and laughs at Final Destination's death lip. Overall neat (PS: what happen to any Fludd thing)

Yoshi- Egg Roll buff is awsome gives yoshi a decent approach option particularlly against projectile users. Shield damage allows also help approach a bit by allowing to get through shield + other attacks. SDI makes already handy moves more consistant and reliable. Dair against shield FTW. Bair may help setting up?

Zelda- New Nayru's Love gives her a quick punisher and setup also helps with defense. Jab, Fsmash, and Dtilt all become more reliable and more usefull overall. Super Armor on UpB make it a safer recovery and a move that could get you from the air to ground faster although I wish their was a couple frames of SA at the begining as well...

Shiek- Make a combo oriented character even better so no problem here

Now my section
GANONDORF!!!-Unbreakable Wiztruck, Ganon has a undeniable approach option. Not broken but pretty descent (its all we wanted) cause of the lag and the how bad it is on shield but reguardless helps Ganon against campers and generally improves his game. Lets him push foward against all who stand in his way. Also maybe even more signifigant combined with Wizkick canceling tricks.

THIS IS SPARTA- Ftilt with tons of Super Armor makes it a better move against his Matches who have terrible recoveries eg Olimar. Essentially more reliable and practicle. Also feels more like its own move now

MURDER PAWWWNCH!!- Warlock punch with Super Armor and Kill Shield Damage. Its still will be a seldom used move however I can see potenial in this actually, maybe for recovering high or just for the **** mindgames.
Team Balanced Brawl I salute you!!

Samus- Not as overwelming as previous builds and less polarizing. Fine

Pit- Seems the set of attacks poke under the shield better I think...

Kirby-Copy buffs 0_0! looks like he literally got all the Nuetral B buffs all the other characters have ex: Links arrows, Ganon's super armor pawnch SO its going to be scary

MetaKnight- Makes the cape a bit more faster?

King Dedede- Makes the Rocket hammer a bit more useful definitely along the line of a surprize move.

Fox- Makes his recovery a bit more flexible gives him pratically perfect horzontal recovery as you can Side B-Jump-Side B However there are a few things to note: 1) It can ONLY be canceled by your 2nd jump after you have already used the first beforehand. 2) You cant cancel if you have already used you 2nd jump and have not landed to replenish jumps. 3) cant cancel until your at the end of the Illusion so when you have already traveled from point A to B

Falco- Like Fox except he can only wall jump.Also makes recovery mind games and ability more better like more of a chance to spike with the illusion. Beside just Side B and Wall Jump you can do Side B- Walljump- Side B or Side B- Walljump- Fire Bird. Also remember you need your 2nd jump to do the walljumps

Wolf- CANT LET YOU DO THAT STARFOX
Exactly like Fox and Falco except given the slope of his Side B, may give more mobilty/ mind gaming properties. Same and be said of the Up B except this move may allow more followups. Also It seems if you use the Up B at a certain angle it lets you cancel into an aerial move/walljump then another Up B as tested on the walls of Yoshi's Island. Someone see on Final Destination and such

Captin Falcon- Raptor boost a bit more stable now. Falcon Dive nerfed but worth the upgrade. The new Falcon kick is where its at. It may have very well make the Captin the king of so many things now. It could literally trick foes easily for followups and total destruction also seems to create a better sense of pressure/mobilty. Falcon PAAAWWNCCCHHH Armor is neat and may make the move useful and more seen.

Pikachu- Make the prime Pokemon better all around lets for more following and chasing and also getting in better, seems solid

Pokemon Trainer:
Ivysaur- No lie the Dair Buff is cool, it feels so natural and does help although I feels wierd to use it at first. However I would have had this in conjunction with the previous Vinewhip buff. Reguardless its wierd but very usefull as it can be use a pusedo mobilty option and looks like it makes Dair itself safe on block
Charizard- Seems like one of the bigger novelties on this update. Id rather see something else in other areas.

Jigglypuff- The taunt is laggy so may see less use then one would imagine however I find it funny how amazingly cchoreographed it seems. Also if you could get enough of them in Jigglypuff, matches would be one of the most haywire and ascentric matches ever. Jigg Dittos anyone. Items themselves could give Jiggs some kind of projectile and zoning ability with the hotheads and the items would also be distracting especially the smokeballs. Still iffy on this as it be seen that some items would be potent enough to let you take more out,but lets see how it works out.

Ike- Pretty awsome. Possibly Breaks comboes and such. also could be used as a sort of mindgame stall or something. may see use to ward off approaches.
Seems like it would be scary when used against a someone on the ledge.

Ness- Allows Ness to get in alot Better. Makes his good moves even better.

Lucas- Seems all is in order.

Sonic- All good

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well, personally, I didn't liked most of those changes at all...
The "no changes to gameplay" statement just got blantantly ignored by some VERY extreme tricks, like the space animals', Nayru'sLove or "Mystery Gift"'s ones.
Also, Pikachu is getting pretty overbuffed, considering he doesn't actually do bad at all against top vBrawl guys like MK and Snake. He just needed some kind of followup, imo.
Even Link's recovery got improved although you said you wouldn't do that...
Just my opinion, I haven't tested...