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Balanced Brawl Standard Release

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Big O

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I tried out some of the Dtilt locks and some of them still work. G&W's dtilt and MK's Dtilt still work on Bowser/DK under the fin for Corneria (these need the most change). Marth and DK's Dtilts also work on Corneria but they probably only need a small SDI tweak to fix. ROB's Dtilt seems fine. I tried his on Snake's level, but I didn't try it on Corneria which seems to be the easiest place to wall infinite. I might look into it more later.

ZSS seems to have an awkward looking slowdown on her Fthrow like Wario used to have on his Dthrow. Maybe it looked that way in regular Brawl, but I know it was tweaked to get rid of the cg so I figure I should mention it in case it was overlooked. Pit's Fthrow doesn't seem to have that issue.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Thinkaman and Jgalt tested all the dtilt locks and concluded that the only one we didn't fix was DK's (and I think we didn't change Pikachu's but just haven't gotten around to it), but DK's is really stupid. Even with a 2x SDI multiplier (higher than in this release), it's not really escapable, and I'm not really sure if there is going to be much we can do other than say "okay, having this wall lock, for which we at least fixed the cargo dthrow set-up, is just going to be a good thing about DK". I think some of them need the best SDI techniques to escape though which means wiggling between one direction and a diagonal without returning to neutral on the stick (QCDI as some people call it), not smashing rapidly.

If Corneria's shape actually does change things though, that is probably easy to fix. Please do inform exactly how that pans out.

ZSS fthrow chaingrab is very difficult to legitimately fix; I think it has changes to both its knockback values and speed required. It probably warrants a second looking into, but this throw is basically designed to be the perfect chaingrab throw so it's going to be tough regardless.

I don't think Link gets very much extra distance on his recovery at all from this change. Link still obviously has one of the worst recoveries in the game if not the worst; it's just below everyone else's by a smaller margin.

I don't really see the point about camping. Yeah, Falco likes to run away and spam lasers in a lot of matchups, but Falco is build to have powerful camping tools and can appropriately do the same things in melee and will probably be able to do the same thing in smash 4. I might say one of the most important things to playing a good Falco in smash in general is knowing when to camp and being able to camp effectively even. However, then I see a claim like Lucas boils down to running away and spamming Pk Fire in as many matchups as he can get away with it in; that's zero matchups. If Lucas actually tries that, he is begging to be punished after a powershield or to have them jump over it and punish or to use character specific punishes (like Wizard's Foot to go right through it). Pk Fire on Lucas is a good move for a few reasons, but it's not spammable in any way. The strengths of this character lie in getting in someone's face and relying on his powerful options there, and now Lucas is much, much better at that. Meta Knight in particular was always known for camping gimmicks, but we took many subtle steps that I think will guarantee that we won't be seeing many camping Meta Knights at all. It's just not rewarding for Meta Knight to camp in Bbrawl; he won't get kills until 200% if he plays too campy, and that basically means he can't win if he plays too campy. The slower, more powerful characters (Ike, Ganondorf, Bowser, Donkey Kong) aren't really very campy, and they are all much better. Speedy characters like Sonic, Captain Falcon, Fox, and Sheik are much better. All these characters play aggressively when played correctly. Characters with powerful camping tools (Snake, Falco, Olimar, Link, Yoshi, etc.) are obviously still going to camp, but it would be poor game design to try to force them into a rushdown playstyle and it would be unfair to defensive players who main those characters to somehow implement systemic changes to discourage what they excel at. I think overall the cast is pretty well split between offense and defense; I just don't see the issue here. We have characters who are raw rushdown, raw camp, and pretty much all points in-between.

We also carefully looked at stage balance and designed the game around a set of stage rules that allow a lot of flexibility for players; there's no reason you should have to be charging headlong into a wall of projectiles on Final Destination or Smashville with any character unless your opponent used their cp to force you to them; we're looking at 27 legal stages, and most of them offer geographic features that assist in the approach from platforms to slopes to Sandbag to pass through floors to all sorts of other features I could never fully enumerate.

Of course, I think Brawl was an excellent game in the first place, and I sense a premise that disagrees with that. There were some degenerate things in Brawl, like there are in all fighters, but at its core the game worked pretty well. It probably happened to be the case that the average defensive character was better than the average offensive character, but that's just a particular quirk of how the balance played out and in either case not worse than the other way around. I am pretty convinced things are going to be fine.
 

Hyrus

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(BBrawl) This is trying to be like vBrawl so that way there is no transition between BBrawl and vBrawl.
I wanna step in here real fast, because this is not true.

If you increase the damage of a move by 3%, you have changed very little about the execution of the move. The reward for that move is increased, but whether i'm playing vBrawl or bBrawl, its still going to need the same openings and same spacing to use. Even adding super armor or a trajectory change is not going to change much about the execution of a given move.

Allowing a player to cancel out of Fox's Illusion with a double jump is not just an execution change, it's adding a new function entirely. So if you build enough skill with using the Illusion cancel, you might go back and play vBrawl to find yourself getting punished or falling to your death because you're so used to being able to jump cancel. You might find yourself trying to Uair out of Nayru's Love in vBrawl, ultimately to botch your advantage. It's also worth mentioning that you're going to, subconsciously, be expecting these new bBrawl shenanigans from your opponent, and would have to retrain yourself.

"In other words, no one should have any problem moving between standard Brawl and Balanced Brawl. There should be nothing to learn, relearn, or unlearn as you play one or the other." Case and point.

Now it's easy to look away when it comes to some of the worst designed characters in the bottom tier of vBrawl, since they have so little to work with anyway. I mean, Ganon is hopeless in vBrawl - modifying him into a different character would have never been a problem for me. But then you have spacies, all mid-upper tiered, getting huge changes like this. Things you'd have to unlearn.

bBrawl separates itself from the other Brawl mods by trying to be an official balance patch, as though it were from Nintendo themselves (right?). If they could run one single patch to try and fix up the tiers and glitches, this code set would be it. But these new changes are creating all kinds of customized ideas and new functions that's turning bBrawl into another interpretation mod.

A change to limit camping totally changes the game physics.
It is of my personal opinion that the smallest of changes to shielding or dodging or ledges or landing could be made small enough to not change the feel of the game while removing some of the frame advantages that being stupidly defensive creates. BUT, my point was only to show that the current test is changing the game in a lot of ways contradicting the project goals.

Of course, I think Brawl was an excellent game in the first place, and I sense a premise that disagrees with that...

...It probably happened to be the case that the average defensive character was better than the average offensive character, but that's just a particular quirk of how the balance played out and in either case not worse than the other way around.
I, genuinely, like the game's slow down as I think it makes it more accessible to the less reactive players. I like that the game is floatier (more like 64) as it gives an opponent more time to look for elements of prediction. I like that there's no L-canceling, as it cut in on the balance of landing lag and the risk of aerials. I like that you can grab a ledge from behind, as that seems like a no brainer.

To call it an excellent game, though, requires that the word "competitive" be absent from the front of "game". A game who's philosophy is that the defending player have it easier is a game that encourages the player to not do anything. To not play. Smash could still be a fun game if shielding/dodging was removed, entirely, and we'd have nothing but attacks and spacing. If it were more defensive, you'd be less likely to try to attack. For any amount more offensive the game becomes, the more the game is likely to move forward and progress rather than be an idling/guessing game.

With tripping, the highest imbalance of "party" items yet, the huge waste of dev time that was the subspace emissary, the half-***** online mode and the clear lack of attention to balance that allowed things like infinites/locks... I think it's easy to see why the classic game is poorly received by those not dazzled by flashing lights and chaotic KOs.

(fixing planking) That's a secret as of the moment, BPC~
Whatever they do, a simple forced standup from the 4th ledge grab without touching the ground would do it, with minimal impact to ledgehogging or trying to get back on stage naturally.
 

A2ZOMG

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I think the best solution for DK's D-tilt is to make it a move with a 100% triprate so that when it's used against the walls, it triggers the 2nd trip speedup mechanic that was added to this game.
 

Eldiran

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I think the best solution for DK's D-tilt is to make it a move with a 100% triprate so that when it's used against the walls, it triggers the 2nd trip speedup mechanic that was added to this game.
You could even give it something like a 20 or 10% trip rate, if that works.
 

rPSIvysaur

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AA, Link get's an enormous boost out of the change. He can DI up an attack then Up-B to z-air until he get's back to the stage. He can continuously do it too. Think of a nerfed version of MK's flaps all the way back to the stage, but with a hitbox on it.
 

A2ZOMG

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Link's recovery is so good it actually lets him edgeguard with aerials. It's dumb, and I don't think it's appropriate. He can also jump near the horizontal blastzone to edgeguard you with his Up-B, which is really stupid.

His vertical recovery is below average yeah, but his ability to jump out really far horizontally and still make it back I think changes the character too much. His recovery is no longer crap. His recovery is probably just slightly worse than Snake's.

At the very least I think his aerial hookshot should have a little more ending lag.
 

rPSIvysaur

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Or disable another tether out of Up-b out of it. It's totally inappropriate for BBrawl.
 

Mit

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wall of text
Yeah, this is what I was talking about when I mentioned that I worried about these more drastic changes. While some of them seem almost necessary to buff certain low characters, it's still going to turn off dedicated tourney players who are very particular about their playstyle and don't want to mess it up with brand new techniques that they might become accustomed to, thus screwing up their vBrawl game.

And yeah, I like the point that it's not really what they would do if Nintendo were to issue an actual balance patch themselves.


I think some stuff is more excusable, like buffing Mario and Link's poor recoveries, but buffing some of the better characters' recoveries, and some of these super armor implementations, seem to be reaching a bit far. Especially the super armor stuff. Pretty much every move that had super armor added to it is pretty viable now, and they all have extreme rewards.


I'm certainly not trying to rip on the project because I still fully support it, although some things I would change:

- Removal of buffs to better recoveries
- Removal of mystery gift (it's just a bit too out there...)
- Changing the super armor stuff (might not need to be removed, but if there was something like a small period of armor when you initiate the animation on moves like Falcon Punch, Eruption, and Ganon's ftilt, they'd be a little less crazy. It'd require timing to pull it out at the right time, and wouldn't be able to punish as many moves)
- Removal of Falcon Kick canceling: it's insane, and highly unnatural/annoying sounding when kick spamming. It just doesn't seem like something that would ever be in the game and screams "THIS IS A MODDED GAME". I still say try something like a dtilt trip that actually provides good followup options (the first implementation of this did not).
- Just in general tone down the flashiness of some of the tricks.


I don't know, I can see how this is being used to try and attract new players and people who think low tiers will never be able to compete, but I think a better way of doing it is still to continue with the older game plan, and really get a lot of videos out there of skilled players playing with low tier characters and high tier characters, and exhibiting the fact that the characters still play the same but are now on pretty equal playing fields (although I realize it's always hard to get videos of stuff like this).


In any case, bravo and I look forward to future updates still.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I should point out these changes are in the process of being refined. This is a test build. It is not a final release for a reason... several reasons actually.
 

Gea

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If you really think that the changes were enough to balance offensive and defensive play I'd call you out of touch with the result. Camping doesn't have to be laser -> runaway, it was just an easy example. The reward for approaching still sucks in relation to the risk of getting in, and this continues to be Brawl's biggest problem. Why shouldn't I get the lead and run if there's a good chance of being punished for trying to land an attack?

Also you're still missing the point. Yes, you can rushdown Lucas after his PK fires, but if he spaces correctly there is literally no incentive for him to do anything but spam and wait for you to approach. Sure, he has better tools up close, but that only makes the camping even more effective. When you approach he is now even more able to punish you for approaching.

If you're okay with this aspect of Brawl so be it, but it's a flaw of the game to most people who have a beef with Brawl.
 

Mit

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Smash stack, which is pre-packaged with this build, causes freezing without the no custom stage code on (which, of course, we have on by default). If you are booting through the HBC or the Twilight Hack or some other method, feel free to delete smash stack from the SD card (it's a hacked custom stage). There are otherwise no compatibility issues between Balanced Brawl and custom stages.
Another quick question: Where exactly is this hacked custom stage? I don't see it in the pf/stage folder. But yeah, I'm using HBC so I can do without.

EDIT: Actually, maybe I found it. Is it the bin file in rsbe/st?

EDIT2: Yup, getting rid of that did the trick. Thanks.

Also, stage changes are nice. I can have Corneria back, and Spear Pillar is definitely improved :D The no collision on the lower part really doesn't look too abnormal because the camera behaves very well and doesn't show it very much. Gritzy Desert appears normal as well (although I'll have to import my textures into the .PAC if I want them D:)
 

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About the drastic changes, AA wrote someting on http://balancedbrawl.net, that pretty much makes sense: BBrawl just don't catch people's attention.

Because both AA and Gea are right. Brawl physics make capable some of the gayest sort of things (like just running away and punish); despite the game could be played without them and making it a very good and enjoyable game
(but, sadly, a regular Brawl player seems to just not being honorable enough...)

There's a simple mindset about the project (really sad and silly, btw):
-People that don't like Brawl just won't like it.
-People that don't enjoy Brawl (aka "play to win" ppl, aka tier wh0res) just won't feel attracted.

Now, the question is if we'll be able to keep our principles, but attract more people to it... Because despite most of those changes are way TOO extreme, they're really flashy and attrative...
 

deepseadiva

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Control over random fsmash would be pretty ridiculous and discreet...

I need to play this version first though.
 

Big O

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Thinkaman and Jgalt tested all the dtilt locks and concluded that the only one we didn't fix was DK's (and I think we didn't change Pikachu's but just haven't gotten around to it), but DK's is really stupid. Even with a 2x SDI multiplier (higher than in this release), it's not really escapable, and I'm not really sure if there is going to be much we can do other than say "okay, having this wall lock, for which we at least fixed the cargo dthrow set-up, is just going to be a good thing about DK". I think some of them need the best SDI techniques to escape though which means wiggling between one direction and a diagonal without returning to neutral on the stick (QCDI as some people call it), not smashing rapidly.

If Corneria's shape actually does change things though, that is probably easy to fix. Please do inform exactly how that pans out.
I just retried it more thouroughly and I conclude that the Dtilt locks are half fixed. In places like RC, you can SDI over the small wall to escape the lock. In places like Onett (left wall only) and Corneria, you can't escape. G&W's Dtilt in particular is the biggest culprit since his works at practically any % and goes to about 130%. I think the easiest way to fix G&W's lock is to make his Dtilt knockdown at all %'s so you can tech the wall (it doesn't trip anyway right?). DK and ROB's Dtilts don't lock until specific %'s and half of the lock is probably due to the jab lock fix (the vulnerable flop speedup) not being in this build. MK and Marth's Dtilts lock you until they are so close you DI behind them and get hit the other way. Basically tall walls (Shadow Moses, Hyrule, PS1 tree, Corneria fin, Onett left wall) still allow Dtilt locks. With extremely good SDI you can escape them but I don't know how hard you intend espacing the locks to be.

One thing I think is important to note is that Zelda can Dtilt lock you anywhere. Her Dtilt combos into itself past like 20-30% until like 300% and the whole time the opponent just stays in place. You can SDI out of it after a few hits depending on how close she is when she starts it, but if you are next to a wall you are pretty screwed.

I want to mention is a few oversights (probably from porting to PSA). DK's jab 1 only had the inner hitbox altered for linking in the official build. In this build, the outer hitbox was tweaked to have fixed knockback too, which makes his tipper jab much worse for jab canceling (and harder to link). Change the knockback back to the original value for the outer hitbox. DK's aerial side b sourspot also doesn't have the tweak to make it safe on hit, while the grounded one does.

I also think that DK's jab 1's inner hitbox needs a little more base knockback so that it still links with a slight delay. As it is now it only links if you hold A, which is what you don't want to do if they block. In our games you powershielded about half of my jab 2's after getting hit with jab 1 (just an example of how frequent the issue is). In regular Brawl, while jab 1 doesn't link until ~25%, past ~50% it has enough leeway to hitconfirm it and past ~80% it can legitimately be used as a jab cancel. A little more leeway would go a long way.
 

Big O

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Unless the move semi spikes or something, just giving attacks a certain amount of knockback causes knockdown. I don't think you need special flags or anything.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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That would be the "easiest" fix obviously, but remember these are non-trivial moves in their own rights. It's not worth ruining random dtilts over... though this will see further investigation as soon as possible.
 

Big O

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That would be the "easiest" fix obviously, but remember these are non-trivial moves in their own rights. It's not worth ruining random dtilts over... though this will see further investigation as soon as possible.
I agree and don't think it would be worth ruining Dtilts over. The only Dtilt I thought knockdown wouldn't ruin was G&W's since I figured (incorrectly?) it was the only one that doesn't trip/combo without a wall. I don't really play G&W so I don't know if Dtilt inducing knockdown would actually ruin it.

To fix Zelda's Dtilt, it needs fixed knockback which leaves her with frame advantage without comboing into itself (maybe +3 or 4 advantage).
 

Amazing Ampharos

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G&W's dtilt doesn't "combo", but he does use it a lot. Changing the dynamics of it like that would be a pretty bold move; making it always knock down would actually probably be more broken than nerfing.
 

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I don't see anything wrong with increasing the base kb of G&W's D-tilt slightly just so that it always hits the tumble threshold. It's not going to be a respectable kill move anyway, and as a techchase it's a pretty bad move since it puts people too far away for G&W to easily follow up. If techchasing is a serious problem though you could always just raise the angle slightly, and if it somehow starts becoming an overpowered gimp setup you could tone down the growth.

G&W's D-tilt is mainly just meant to be a spacer that pushes people offstage. And at any rate I actually think it should be buffed so that it has more advantages over the other more potent D-tilt pokes in this game. G&W's D-tilt is good, but compared to others lacks horizontal range, and doesn't really kill or set up into anything powerful, and he would probably appreciate a slight power buff to D-tilt against his harder matchups.

As for G&W's BBrawl trick, I think he should have buffs on less useful Judgement hammers (imo the 8 and the 1 deserve the most attention). If the 8 had less ending lag (so that he could actually follow up off it), and if the 1 had a Cape Element (I think the Brawl minus team did this).
 

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1 on Judgement is fine. maybe 2 or 4 (or 7?) could be changed, but, I'm not sure... would be fun, though...
 

A2ZOMG

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It's fine that the 1 does 12 damage to G&W, but idk, it doesn't need to be ridiculously unsafe. Also G&W's 8 is pretty useless in singles due to how laggy Judgement is.
 

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It is of my personal opinion that the smallest of changes to shielding or dodging or ledges or landing could be made small enough to not change the feel of the game while removing some of the frame advantages that being stupidly defensive creates. BUT, my point was only to show that the current test is changing the game in a lot of ways contradicting the project goals.
I'd really agree with this. Most of the flashy changes though neat, are a bit controversial to this project's goal.

I certainly like the idea in bold though, some characters like Snake seem to have almost obscenely good rewards for defensive play to the point that approachign them with half of the cast isn't a very wise choice... turning it into a waiting game which really blows. Pikachu is anotehr example of a campy character, sure that's a lot easier to deal with than Snake but it's annoying to fight aginst as someone like Yoshi with a lack-luster approach and average defensive game at best.

It's as he said, the reward for camping trumps aproaching. :(
 

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Yoshi I honestly don't know. From vague observation he seems like a character with decent offensive potential in this game. With aerials wrecking shields every day of the week, and Egg Roll doing stupid stuff against commitment to weak pokes, and pretty good survivability, he looks like a decent character.

I don't play the character though so I really don't understand if approaching with him is now suddenly very favorable due to his shield damage buffs.

As for Ike I went around asking for suggestions as to what this character could use. Suggestions included buff on Jab followup options (alter Jabs so that his frame advantage is enough to follow up with more moves reliably), D-throw/U-throw made better kill/combo throws, buffing Counter to either be faster or more powerful, buffing Aether so that MK can't U-air Ike out of it (and/or adding SA to the startup), speeding up B-air to improve Ike's air control options and speeding up N-air so that Ike doesn't suicide, and reducing ground ending lag of QD so he can cancel into say Jabs more quickly. And if his D-tilt could be changed to not be completely useless.

Any opinions?
 

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i still think faster cooldown and weaker (much weaker) ftilt would be the best solution. that move is not very important when it comes to KOs, it seems. i like the idea of buffing aether. i guess buffing dthrow is okay depending on what percents it kills at. if ike hasn't killed you by 160%...then having that option available is cool. although i think jab 3 kills at similar percents anyways. :\

fthrow and bthrow already put the opponent in a pretty good position.

faster bair should be weaker to compensate.

ike is just such a slow character. -~-

i think yoshi is pretty good now, bair is a very good approach.

better followups out of QD aren't unwarranted if peach keeps her silly bomber tricksies...
 

A2ZOMG

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Ike's Jab3 kills you at like 193% no DI when fresh, so it's never a kill move.

I would suggest that Ike's U-throw/D-throw be altered to kill at around 170% on FD when DIed (while the other throw is given a high base but set knockback). Ike has more troubles consistently killing as opposed to dealing damage so that sounds like a reasonable number to me (partial compensation for the loss of GR on Wario and a few other chars as well). The question is how much frame advantage do you want Ike from that other throw. D-throw ends sooner than U-throw so technically allows more freedom for followup, even though it has more knockback currently.

I don't think Ike needs to be any weaker when Snake basically has Ike's moveset but with less ending lag and better startup most of the time. Snake's B-air is basically better than Ike's. Kills only like 6% later but can be used twice in a fullhop and is a viable edgeguard. Even if you speed up Ike's B-air, Snake's B-air will still arguably be better since it has the sex kick properties and he still edgeguards more efficiently since he can jump out farther with it due to a superior vertical recovery.
 

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ike's bair is also much more disjointed and safer on shield (imo).

i'd support making fair a stronger move...
 

Lokee

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Ike will be a tough one to make better, Ill just list some stuff .

+KB on Counter or add SA on startup.
Personally I think it would have made more sense to give Ike Marth's counter to allow him to counteract juggling and his general slow speed.

-KBG on Downthrow OR +KB/KBG
I think it would have been a good followup throw if it had more set knockback but it seems to me the current one sends foes too high too fast and doesnt even kill that well. It looks like it cant decide if its a followup throw or a kill throw so go one way or the other.

+Shield Damage "Multiple Moves"
I think Shield Crasher Ike should be something of an idea like "Relentless Bowser" especially if it allows him to AT LEAST get through shields and give something the opposing player to worry about and add a bit of depth to Ike's 1demensional playstyle. I could care less if it makes Begining player think he's broken or overpowered as long as he is viable.

Angle Changes
Adjust the angle of some of his moves to benefit him more. Mabe Dair has more spiking hitboxes or Fair has a more downward angle on some of the hitboxes.

But thats just my opinion although I wouldnt go as far as to give Ike a Mystery Gift type move
 

NovaRyumaru

Smash Apprentice
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-KBG on Downthrow OR +KB/KBG
I think it would have been a good followup throw if it had more set knockback but it seems to me the current one sends foes too high too fast and doesnt even kill that well. It looks like it cant decide if its a followup throw or a kill throw so go one way or the other.
I woudl agree with this change quite a bit, Ike has decent throws but you can't really doo anythgin with them, only his D-throw is a viable setup at low %, can usually d-throw to aether for a nice chunk of damage but some characters can still punish you pretty hard for it.

On the subject of throws. Jigglypuff, her D-throw imo should have a little less power to it, puts them too far away to really lead into anything.
 
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