OK guys, you really have been asking for it, and I'm sick and tired of the stupid arguements, the childish behaviour, and most of all, I am really sick of people not using their brains, it makes me very sad.
This post might be a bit jumbled up, but I have pretty much just came in to use your own words against you to prove how silly you are being, and how you guys really need to step up your game.
There will be a lot of quoting here, and some things I have addressed inside the quote using
red text to show my counter points.
To the best of my knowledge, most vocal top players agree that customs are not beneficial to competitive play (m2k, zero, nakat), which is a sentiment expressed by most Melbourne players also.
This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about and why attila has lost all credibility here.
To back up his arguement, he is using "evidence" that he make up. Using stupid false evidence here to support your arguement hurts everyone involved and really goes a long way to showing that you cant hold up a proper debate and like to jump to conlcusions. If anyone is wondering what this false evidence is, its claiming that top players are anti customs, and that since American has the same opinion as those players, that they are right.
Not only is that a little silly, but the false evidence here is that claim.
M2k Does not agree with you at all.
Heres my evidence, I ****ing asked him myself and he said "No. I have no stance on customs. Imo explore it before banning" (this also contradicts shaya, who is really on my side I guess, who said that m2k is pro customs, tsk tsk tsk shaya you should know better)
Wow, your evidence just got turned into my evidence.
My thoughts on customs is that theorycrafting only goes so far, and committing to banning them straight away is dumb.
Its a new thing, new things require testing and experimenting and thus customs should be legal, at least in the short term, so that we can actually gather data, and real world experience before we decide if we should banish them away or not. (IE, the very opposite of jumping to conclusions.)
If Apex has indeed only banned most customs out of logistical fears then it should be noted that the world is actually beginning to prefer customs. I've already mentioned the poll and the 88% of peeps who want customs legal; and with the system provided by Ampharos/Thinkaman, TO's have begun to successfully run customs legal, large-scale tournaments. What this means is that conforming to an Apex ruleset that is itself likely to change is... debatable, and says to me more that some people just don't want customs and 'oh look the rest of the world isn't doing it (right now) so we shouldn't either' becomes a convenient excuse.
Does having this difference that separates us from the rest of the world for a little bit really matter? I feel like we're all freaking out about that out of habit instead of thinking it through. Customs are a big subject throughout the rest of the world's competitive scene right now - no-one should blame us for using them when groups of people are and others aren't. I re-iterate that if Apex is doing this out of logistics, then we actually have no real precedent to run off. Logistics clearly hasn't been an issue with us - it hasn't been so far and the way things are looking for the next tournament up here, they won't be an issue this time either. I understand maybe it seems a bit radical but my advice would be instead of following a precedent that hasn't been set, why don't we help establish one?
this was a very valid post that made a good point that people just ignored, well done people.
DD, your next
Can you provide a good argument as to why we shouldn't follow the lead of the bigger scenes in the world? Or more, why you (or others) care so much about Australia deviating from Apex/The US? Like this rule set will allow the best players to win and that's the end goal right? We can end this whole mess of a thread and just get on with playing the game if we "open mindedly" accept that we have a vastly smaller community than a lot of other countries/continents and hence a greater skill gap between the better and worse players. No matter the rule set or how Janky it is i know that over time if i don't improve Attila will still beat me consistently.
We could just scoop on this argument and let the US figure it all out while we play the game. Those overseas threads are always open for foreign input i'm sure but unless there is a solid reason why we shouldn't be following the rest of the world your pokes at Attila aren't achieving anything.
we still need rules "while we play the game." I wasn't so much poking Attila as trying to point out how ridiculous and not at all thought out the thinks he was saying (if you'd like evidence of this, just go back a few pages he even got called out on it by people and just ignored them), and thus how crazy you'd have to be to listen to him. If he wants to pick up his game, I'm all for it.
ok, I accept that our community is small, I dont nessacarily agree with you that that correlates to having a greater skill gap, but I'm also wondering what these points have to do with customs and how accepting these points will end this arguement?
They have nothing to do with customs and you are just wasting our time.
Melbourne, please learn how to argue, debate, and make informed/educated opinions, and please forget how to make baseless conjecture and jump to conclusions. Its really getting rediculous, dekar is the only person from melbourne in this thread so far that hasnt done that, whats going on?
Again, there doesn't seem to be any solid reasoning against using the Apex rule set for the time being. (good thing I just provided solid reasoning against it, oh and also that one time luco pointed out that most people prefer customs according to the poll?) Is there anyone with a feasible argument why in the near future (yes, me) IF other stats chose to deviate from this it's ultimately their own undoing. (since you are talking about feasable arugments, let me again point out that this isn't one of them. you just jumped so far past logic and onto an early and not well reasoned/educated opinion that I am actually kind of dumbfounded)
Next comes splice.
I'm saying that even I haven't tested them to the extent at which I feel they're definitely competitive or not. Me directly calling you a hypocrite is vastly different to the non-introductory passive aggressiveness in your posts? If it isn't emotion then whatever mental pathology leads you to this, it never progresses anything.
let me just say that this is quite valid against you splice, however shaya was the first person to start trying to pin the 'you are using a strawman arguement' on the other side so unfortunately I have to present him with the "that guy" award. well done shaya, you are making us all look bad.
What, you're not ok with arguments based around assumptions supported only by stretches of logic?
Sherluco Holmes 8) over here seems to be.
wow, getting upset about people insulting you and not being mature, right after you do it to Luco? Gee, I wonder why Shaya called you a hypocrite?
why would I really want to post here if the opposition's primary argument strategy is slander?
-How have I even been hypocritical
-my argument about customs has nothing to do with you guys being disrespectful, I'm just saying that you are.
-You're acting elite
(remember that luco guy, and that one time you were all of these things to him?)
You haven't understood the reason we think it's important to follow international ruleset (it's not for the SAME reasons as Apex, it's because we want to be playing the same game as overseas.(we understand this just fine thank you very much) If Apex claimed their Smash 4 rule set is logistics and would change in the future, then we wouldn't be very swayed i dont think but they haven't actually done that, instead it's been assumed, nice argument not shallow at all) (right back at you, you use the arguement that you want to play the same game as overseas (whilst also making the assumption that APEX represents the entirety of overseas, dont even get me started on that) yet you also claim that if APEX/America/whatever changed to having customs legal, that you wouldnt follow them. Well done, you have just let me use your own words to prove that your own reasoning is extremely shallow, this is why people are making fun of you, not because they are elitist *****)
And most of your posts begin with or are entirely insults (show me one post that is entirely insults thats posted by someone other then me)
You have made me increasingly able to count on you being a snarky elitist refusing to respect the opinions of the opposition. huehue it's not as effective coz hypocrite is such a strong word to call someone in an argument right but being a **** is ok? (again, you have just resorted to insults and being disrespectful, whilst maintaining that you arent at all and it is we who are being disrespectful, are you even reading your own posts? you have made me increasingly able to quote out your posts in a room of people and have them laugh at you- yes this is something that has happened quite a few times in the last week thanks to your contributions to this thread)
The VIC and NSW scenes have gone through rulesets influenced by the players though. It appears that not just Attila (wow, not JUST Attila??!) but what appears to be most of our player base doesn't really care for customs in VIC. And we've appeared to make no progress in getting VIC and NSW to unite their opinions on customs. The only thing that's really important to me on principal is that VIC and NSW share rulesets.
Suggesting that other peoples decisions are just a "convenient excuse" is not getting the discussion anywhere and has been pretty common in this thread. (once actually) It's a pretty **** thing to do because it discredits other people's opinion and progress on the topic without you actually providing any logic (we have provided plenty of logic here so far). It's no lie that the Apex ruleset is agreeable to many VIC players (but not ideal; a lot of us would prefer more conservative stages as well) but we said from pretty early on we would be influenced by the ruleset. The reasons for this are legitimate, with the intention of assisting Aussie players to be ready to compete OoS (why would using a ruleset from another country help us to compete OoS, do you mean that in the sense that you simply want a unified ruleset and are claiming that apex should be that ruleset, if so, say what you mean, you poorly wording yourself (if that is indeed what you meant) is not helping anybody- furthermore that idea in itself doesnt automtically become legitimate in terms of using it to justify apex, as you could make a counter arguement that we should copy japans ruleset for consistency, or even better WE COULD MAKE OUR OWN which would be fine since last time I checked, America isnt OoS.). If you want to influence the discussion in favor of customs, than you should refrain from putting words into the mouths of others and implying conspiracy.(this is just silly, with this sentence you are doing the very thing you are upset at him for doing)
If you hold a heavy respect for people than why do you assume that their decisions are based on laziness?
How are people supposed to give a damn about what you think when at the start of your post you ignore their reasoning about feeling that customs are worse for competitive play, aren't proven to be more balanced, following America can be beneficial to prolonging competitive play and Apex is considered a pinnacle Smash event, by dismissing it as "convenient excuse". (perhaps its because "feeling" something does not equal hard evidence for something, yet melbourne seems to act as though it does, and they seem very shocked that we arent just accepting their opinion over our own and changing our minds.)
Anyway are you looking for closure (no), no-ones blaming you/NSW for using customs. If it's working well for you that's cool,(thanks man) and VIC is doing nice without them (cool). I think a lot of players would appreciate if the OTHER scene would conform to their ruleset, but we're still not in agreement so looking to the decisions of American majors can be helpful to make decisions for us (you will probably be upset if I say that the reason you want to use American as the 'tiebreaker' is because it lets your side 'win', but I'm going to go ahead and say it anyway.). If it's true that customs are going to become the norm or it appears to be going that way, than that is a concern we should consider too, and you can expect us to cross that bridge when we get to it (we already are at that bridge, thats what this whole argument is about, have you been paying attention?)
You patronise constantly (so do you), you should be trying to learn in this debate, not trying to win. (take your own advice) You could start by learning what anti-customs people's arguments even are because you still don't seem to properly grasp the reason we want to follow the USA's decision.(you dont seem to be able to grasp that either as I showed above)
and that actually supports my point which exactly was that WE DONT KNOW IF THEY ARE MORE COMPETITIVE OR NOT.(exactly, now you are getting somewhere buddy. now all you have to do is follow the chain of logic here which leads to this: because we dont know if they are more competitive or not, we should have them legal for now in order to test/experiment/trial/gather data in order to ascertain whether we should ban them or not. you following me yet?)
I'm fine with customs being legal btw and I wouldn't mind if they were legalised, I just want a ruleset that is consistent throughout Australia + International and I want it to be decided sooner rather than later. (well sooner rather then later is being impatient and will impede with correct decision making. if you want a ruleset that is consistent, stop making stupid apex arguements and start testing things out and TRIALING stuff.)
Basically I have just shown that you guys are very incompetent at making your arguments (sorry, this isnt an insult, this is the reality of the situation, just look at all the stuff I had to counter correct and point out above, you actually should be ashamed of yourselves, this is really how you conduct this stuff? its not going to help our scene at all, pick up your ****ing game) are constantly being disrespectful and insulting whilst maintaining that you are not and that other peoples opinions should be invalidated because those people are the ones being disrespectful, and really are not listening.
I think I made my actual point/opinions on customs quite clear, but if I haven't feel free to ask me some more and I will clarify.
Shaya
I edited this part in so I wouldn't double post so not sure if you agree with the following since you liked it before I edited 
, feel free to unlike
