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Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion
- Thread starter Attila_
- Start date
Star ☆
No Problem!
I don't really know much about the Smash 4 metagame at this point but after reading through the last 20 pages I'd like to point to the game "Dissidia: Final Fantasy", a game in which you can swap in and swap out all your attacks and there's even equipment and accessories that affect your stats and yield abilities. Dissidia showed you what equipment your opponent had on the loading screen but it was a surprise what attacks your opponent had equipped.
With the exception of two accessories and about three summons, everything was legal in Dissidia. I think both customs and equipment can work in unison well in Smash 4 but the fact that equipment can drastically changes characters requires both players to know what equipment sets they're using. Custom Moves however, I think can stay hidden.
Dissidia's movesets were quite balanced though in the long run and Smash 4's future concerning custom moves/equipment isn't really certain yet so I can't say if my comparison is 100% relevant, just wanted to see if I could contribute to the discussion fruitfully. Hope it helped!
With the exception of two accessories and about three summons, everything was legal in Dissidia. I think both customs and equipment can work in unison well in Smash 4 but the fact that equipment can drastically changes characters requires both players to know what equipment sets they're using. Custom Moves however, I think can stay hidden.
Dissidia's movesets were quite balanced though in the long run and Smash 4's future concerning custom moves/equipment isn't really certain yet so I can't say if my comparison is 100% relevant, just wanted to see if I could contribute to the discussion fruitfully. Hope it helped!
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DD_
Smash Journeyman
Dissidia MM at BAM HYPE!I don't really know much about the Smash 4 metagame at this point but after reading through the last 20 pages I'd like to point to the game "Dissidia: Final Fantasy", a game in which you can swap in and swap out all your attacks and there's even equipment and accessories that affect your stats and yield abilities. Dissidia showed you what equipment your opponent had on the loading screen but it was a surprise what attacks your opponent had equipped.
With the exception of two accessories and about three summons, everything was legal in Dissidia. I think both customs and equipment can work in unison well in Smash 4 but the fact that equipment can drastically changes characters requires both players to know what equipment sets they're using. Custom Moves however, I think can stay hidden.
Dissidia's movesets were quite balanced though in the long run and Smash 4's future concerning custom moves/equipment isn't really certain yet so I can't say if my comparison is 100% relevant, just wanted to see if I could contribute to the discussion fruitfully. Hope it helped!
Star ☆
No Problem!
CyberHyperPhoenix
"Download Complete."
So Lylat got fixed in the latest update, which I'm ALOT of you will be happy about....
CyberHyperPhoenix
"Download Complete."
In the video Luigi does an his B and it goes through the stage (Imagine doing Luigi's Up B underneath BF's Ledge and you can snap the ledge... you get what I mean), instead of getting stuck underneath the ledge.
Its kinda hard to explain, its easier if you just watch it when you can haha
CyberHyperPhoenix
"Download Complete."
True, but I still say its better than nothing....
Jamwa
Smash Champion
seems even more unfit for competetive play now
Pazx
hoo hah
This is somehow even jankier
LiteralGrill
Smokin' Hot~
I have heard Mewtwo doesn't even have custom moves. So customs on meta, I think there is something to really talk about. (Note can't 100% confirm this yet and got the info off /r/smashbros so be careful).
CyberHyperPhoenix
"Download Complete."
No its true.
When I go to the screen to select custom moves for Mewtwo, it says at the bottom of the screen that he has no customs.
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LiteralGrill
Smokin' Hot~
So... I hate it's come to this AGAIN but I think the talk turns to customs. With DLC characters now likely to not even GET custom moves, is it finally showing they aren't balancing at all with these in mind?
CyberHyperPhoenix
"Download Complete."
I dunno man.
I'd say wait until the 28th, maybe we will get Mewtwo's custom moves then...
I'd say wait until the 28th, maybe we will get Mewtwo's custom moves then...
No customs on Mewtwo tells me Sakarai's team got lazy. It would take only a small effort to give his neutral B lucario type customs for example.
I am hoping that come the full launch there will be customs, but I am not holding my breathe.
Also DLC characters not getting customs in no way shows that they aren't balancing with these in mind, nor does it mean customs are not balanced either.
I also think that just because a few characters don't get customs that customs should be banned in tournaments.
I am hoping that come the full launch there will be customs, but I am not holding my breathe.
Also DLC characters not getting customs in no way shows that they aren't balancing with these in mind, nor does it mean customs are not balanced either.
I also think that just because a few characters don't get customs that customs should be banned in tournaments.
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Nah gords, Mewtwo confirmed that trip sappling and Miis aren't competitive and need to go.
I'm sold.
I'm sold.
Pazx
hoo hah
ok but like
miis =/= customs
miis =/= customs
They do in my heart. Unless Piston Punch/Helicopter Kick reports of killing 20-30% later is true.
M
+9999999999
Back to default size 1111? :D
Nah, obviously not legal at all. They don't even count in the game as characters for all the solo-mode challenges and don't have separate scores for things.
Honestly though, I've not been pro-customs for a while now (actually, since the moment I landed in the US), I just believe there's no reason to not have had them legal. If this balance patch turns out "alright", as in, no single overwhelming character, I'm probably just going to start advocating customs off as a favourable game to play. I don't really find anything particularly wrong with any of them but at the same time I agree that they change the way the game plays; rather than my original hope of just making more characters more viable.
Rosalina seemingly coming out unscathed in the patch is probably going to start tipping balance concerns into her favour. Although I have no issues with her custom laser or luma warp as individual moves. For the most part otherwise, several custom moves have been seen as problematic but this patch has addressed close to none of them (heck, things like Kirby's inhale is buffed, but the changes did not run over to his customs).
tl;dr I think I'm over picking Falco for Villager/DK and Sheik for people who want to run away with their customs for 8 minutes, just want to go back to zero to deathing people with zero suit samus.
Don't want to have to worry about a mii brawler half the size of kirby with top tier mobility easily hit confirming into kills at 50% all the time while being nearly impossible to hit either, standard sized Miis should be the only things we see.
Still, I'm fully committed to waiting out Evo and evaluating things from there.
Honestly though, I've not been pro-customs for a while now (actually, since the moment I landed in the US), I just believe there's no reason to not have had them legal. If this balance patch turns out "alright", as in, no single overwhelming character, I'm probably just going to start advocating customs off as a favourable game to play. I don't really find anything particularly wrong with any of them but at the same time I agree that they change the way the game plays; rather than my original hope of just making more characters more viable.
Rosalina seemingly coming out unscathed in the patch is probably going to start tipping balance concerns into her favour. Although I have no issues with her custom laser or luma warp as individual moves. For the most part otherwise, several custom moves have been seen as problematic but this patch has addressed close to none of them (heck, things like Kirby's inhale is buffed, but the changes did not run over to his customs).
tl;dr I think I'm over picking Falco for Villager/DK and Sheik for people who want to run away with their customs for 8 minutes, just want to go back to zero to deathing people with zero suit samus.
Don't want to have to worry about a mii brawler half the size of kirby with top tier mobility easily hit confirming into kills at 50% all the time while being nearly impossible to hit either, standard sized Miis should be the only things we see.
Still, I'm fully committed to waiting out Evo and evaluating things from there.
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Thinking that customs are worse is a reason to not have them legal, it's just not something concrete enough to be solid foundation for having them banned (unless almost your entire community supports it)
Just wanted to nitpick that one part of your statement because otherwise I have similar feelings and ideas to your post
Just wanted to nitpick that one part of your statement because otherwise I have similar feelings and ideas to your post
Pazx
hoo hah
I truly believe Mii Brawler is a very limited character but I can see how min/min size just tips it over into degenerate gameplay territory. Default size, any moveset should be the way to go in a no-customs environment.
Advocate being the key word.
To me customs is a different game, not inherently worse (at least prior to this patch). A position doesn't mean I have a concrete foundation to their legality.
But if balance issues were addressed with the vanilla game while not addressed at all in the customs-game, its starting to break away from this whole "balanced around customs or not" notion.
My main stance against customs is "adding more problems to the game, more depth or otherwise, isn't good". If it weren't to be an arm and a leg amputation required to have people agree certain custom moves or set ups are problems for the game and removal of them would be better, I'd probably opt for that then. Like hooray, Diddy and Sheik were still the best characters in the game with customs, but half to 2/3rds of the cast had to chalk up Villager and DK as near-unplayable match ups. I haven't been able to see this as a good thing, but I regret people losing choices in say Charizard, who don't really produce issues.
If a whole slew of characters suddenly get an extra kill or combo option (which is mostly the case), I'm all for it. That's what customs mostly offer and beyond "mah logitechs" there is really no solid way to discern what's a better game. I think I'd probably just prefer to play a "balanced" game though, most issues with vanilla being addressed while customs was mostly ignored. It's crazy to think we may get another patch just prior to evo though.... ughhh
To me customs is a different game, not inherently worse (at least prior to this patch). A position doesn't mean I have a concrete foundation to their legality.
But if balance issues were addressed with the vanilla game while not addressed at all in the customs-game, its starting to break away from this whole "balanced around customs or not" notion.
My main stance against customs is "adding more problems to the game, more depth or otherwise, isn't good". If it weren't to be an arm and a leg amputation required to have people agree certain custom moves or set ups are problems for the game and removal of them would be better, I'd probably opt for that then. Like hooray, Diddy and Sheik were still the best characters in the game with customs, but half to 2/3rds of the cast had to chalk up Villager and DK as near-unplayable match ups. I haven't been able to see this as a good thing, but I regret people losing choices in say Charizard, who don't really produce issues.
If a whole slew of characters suddenly get an extra kill or combo option (which is mostly the case), I'm all for it. That's what customs mostly offer and beyond "mah logitechs" there is really no solid way to discern what's a better game. I think I'd probably just prefer to play a "balanced" game though, most issues with vanilla being addressed while customs was mostly ignored. It's crazy to think we may get another patch just prior to evo though.... ughhh
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Pazx
hoo hah
Real talk: since Lylat is completely fixed can the entirety of Australia run 5 starters?
swordsaint
Smash Master
I'm just a nobody with a meaningless opinion, even more-so given that I don't even play Smash 4 or attend tournaments, but having talked to multiple people lately about customs vs no customs I've become quite interested in this discussion. Personally, I'm against the usage of custom moves, and most likely would never attend a custom move legal tournament.
All Smash games have their own certain depth to them and custom moves add even more variables to a game. However I think it's important to note that more doesn't always equal better, and in my opinion, custom moves cross the line of depth and being convoluted. When I go in to a game of Smash, playing Mario vs Falcon...I want it to be Mario vs Falcon, not Mario 1234 vs Falcon 2321 or however you guys differentiate them. Splice however is correct in saying a personal preference isn't grounds enough to decide between legal or not legal unless it's a majority opinion.
Before the game was released I was all for customs, which was contrary to many people I spoke to. My opinion was that it was one of the things that made Smash 4 unique and that we should at least try them before deciding. Ultimately, I don't think that they fulfilled the role we wanted or expected within the game.
I'm probably in the same boat as Shaya here, in regards to my opinion against being mostly personal preference and not necessarily a solid argument either way.
Last thing, I really disagree with this mentality. (Love you Shaya)
All Smash games have their own certain depth to them and custom moves add even more variables to a game. However I think it's important to note that more doesn't always equal better, and in my opinion, custom moves cross the line of depth and being convoluted. When I go in to a game of Smash, playing Mario vs Falcon...I want it to be Mario vs Falcon, not Mario 1234 vs Falcon 2321 or however you guys differentiate them. Splice however is correct in saying a personal preference isn't grounds enough to decide between legal or not legal unless it's a majority opinion.
Before the game was released I was all for customs, which was contrary to many people I spoke to. My opinion was that it was one of the things that made Smash 4 unique and that we should at least try them before deciding. Ultimately, I don't think that they fulfilled the role we wanted or expected within the game.
I'm probably in the same boat as Shaya here, in regards to my opinion against being mostly personal preference and not necessarily a solid argument either way.
Last thing, I really disagree with this mentality. (Love you Shaya)
I get that massive foreign international tournaments generally lead the way forward in regards to rule sets in smaller tournaments, I just don't think we need to copy anyone's rule sets. At the end of the day we're all just playing a game we love in a way we prefer, and if that happens to be a little different that's OK. We should play the way we think is best.
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If you aren't willing to attend either, then you have a different mentality to me. Supporting the game is a lot more important than ruleset squabbles or preferences.
There's nothing holding you back from playing either version, nor is there any seemingly drastic changes to results at tournaments or regions that have supported both. Results and tournament winners aren't really changing.
Why I'm willing to wait until after Evo is because we as a community should be embracing the opportunity to test a different meta, especially while the game is so young and underdeveloped. At that stage a fair amount of time to adjust or draw conclusions can happen and the results will be there after the largest smash tournament of all time.
Maybe I'm just too social-media-wired to like every active scene not Australia, my perspective is not based around our traditional seclusion complex.
There's nothing holding you back from playing either version, nor is there any seemingly drastic changes to results at tournaments or regions that have supported both. Results and tournament winners aren't really changing.
Why I'm willing to wait until after Evo is because we as a community should be embracing the opportunity to test a different meta, especially while the game is so young and underdeveloped. At that stage a fair amount of time to adjust or draw conclusions can happen and the results will be there after the largest smash tournament of all time.
Maybe I'm just too social-media-wired to like every active scene not Australia, my perspective is not based around our traditional seclusion complex.
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swordsaint
Smash Master
Well in regards to Smash 4 I'm a lot more casual. I'm not that invested in to the game, just interested in the customs vs no customs discussion because there's so many perspectives to it. I'd say I'm more the opposite of ZXV (who has told me he probably wouldn't enter Smash 4 tournaments unless he could use whatever version of Mii Brawler he uses) but whether I'd attend or not, or the fact you'd rather just support the game was never the point so I apologize for saying that, I only meant to clarify my stance on the matter.
I would imagine results largely stay the same because in the end the most important factor is player skill. The game is still Smash 4. The game still plays mechanically, like Smash 4. Which I guess makes it sound like "what's the big deal with customs then?!", but I trust you know what's meant by that.
I agree, we should try new things, but we should also decide for ourselves. I guess the question I'd ask would be, how long until a decision is made?
Maybe I'm just too social-media-wired to like every active scene not Australia, my perspective is not based around our traditional seclusion complex.[/quote]
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything outside of (what sounds like to me, correct me if I'm wrong) demeaning other people.
I would imagine results largely stay the same because in the end the most important factor is player skill. The game is still Smash 4. The game still plays mechanically, like Smash 4. Which I guess makes it sound like "what's the big deal with customs then?!", but I trust you know what's meant by that.
I agree, we should try new things, but we should also decide for ourselves. I guess the question I'd ask would be, how long until a decision is made?
Maybe I'm just too social-media-wired to like every active scene not Australia, my perspective is not based around our traditional seclusion complex.[/quote]
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything outside of (what sounds like to me, correct me if I'm wrong) demeaning other people.
I'm racist.
Your post was pretty much "I'm not invested in this at all, but here's my OPINION, btw this opinion I have is wrong, LEL. P.S. I don't grasp the context of what's being said"
I was so conflicted even replying to it. But I -do- like you a lot scoot. Sorry I couldn't help but have my racism overpower my yearning for you to come back to tournaments.
Your post was pretty much "I'm not invested in this at all, but here's my OPINION, btw this opinion I have is wrong, LEL. P.S. I don't grasp the context of what's being said"
I was so conflicted even replying to it. But I -do- like you a lot scoot. Sorry I couldn't help but have my racism overpower my yearning for you to come back to tournaments.
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swordsaint
Smash Master
And I wondered why I left...
Jamwa
Smash Champion
WHEN I SAID I COULD MOVE ON AND GO
YOU SAID IM WEAK AND IT SHOWS
I COULDNT GO ON WITHOUT YOU
NOW IM SITTING IN THIS HOUSE ALONE
WONDERING WHY I LEFT HOME
AND IM HOPING THAT YOU KNOW THAT
'Til now, I always got by on my own
I never really cared until I met you
And now it chills me to the bone
SWORDSAINT
DONT LEAVE ME ALONE
...
I... wonder where you are tonight
No answer on the telephone
And the night goes by so very slow
Oh, I hope that it won't end though
Alone
YOU SAID IM WEAK AND IT SHOWS
I COULDNT GO ON WITHOUT YOU
NOW IM SITTING IN THIS HOUSE ALONE
WONDERING WHY I LEFT HOME
AND IM HOPING THAT YOU KNOW THAT
'Til now, I always got by on my own
I never really cared until I met you
And now it chills me to the bone
SWORDSAINT
DONT LEAVE ME ALONE
...
I... wonder where you are tonight
No answer on the telephone
And the night goes by so very slow
Oh, I hope that it won't end though
Alone
Pretty sure all you need is one tournament and you'll be the hero I've been yearning for, unwaveringly so.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
[quote="swordsaint, post: 19002677, member: 138094]
...that we should at least try them before deciding...
I get that massive foreign international tournaments generally lead the way forward in regards to rule sets in smaller tournaments, I just don't think we need to copy anyone's rule sets. At the end of the day we're all just playing a game we love in a way we prefer, and if that happens to be a little different that's OK. We should play the way we think is best. [/quote]
back off shaya, no need to be a **** head about it, you should leave that to people better at being a **** head than you (like oh I dunno... me?)
at least scoot acknowledge the fact that he has an opinion and that it is an opinion and different from fact (most of you in this thread didnt even get that far)
scoots right though about trying it before we embrace or abandon it (another good point of view that most of you didnt even get to) and in the end, whilst its good to keep an eye on international tournaments, we arent america, we have a different metagame and a different mindset, and we should start thinking for ourselves. Anyone who replies to this complaining about us not having an international standard so that our players arent disadvantaged when they go oversea's, none of you are gonna travel anyway **** off. Why should our scene -potentially- suffer and our abilitys to develop rulesets that are good for us not develop just on the odd chance that one day one or two players MIGHT go to an overseas tourney, better to focus on the bigger picture, as in all of our players.
plz no more circle arguments and no more **** about customs being the same as equipment or I'm going to come to your house and ruin your day.
...that we should at least try them before deciding...
I get that massive foreign international tournaments generally lead the way forward in regards to rule sets in smaller tournaments, I just don't think we need to copy anyone's rule sets. At the end of the day we're all just playing a game we love in a way we prefer, and if that happens to be a little different that's OK. We should play the way we think is best. [/quote]
back off shaya, no need to be a **** head about it, you should leave that to people better at being a **** head than you (like oh I dunno... me?)
at least scoot acknowledge the fact that he has an opinion and that it is an opinion and different from fact (most of you in this thread didnt even get that far)
scoots right though about trying it before we embrace or abandon it (another good point of view that most of you didnt even get to) and in the end, whilst its good to keep an eye on international tournaments, we arent america, we have a different metagame and a different mindset, and we should start thinking for ourselves. Anyone who replies to this complaining about us not having an international standard so that our players arent disadvantaged when they go oversea's, none of you are gonna travel anyway **** off. Why should our scene -potentially- suffer and our abilitys to develop rulesets that are good for us not develop just on the odd chance that one day one or two players MIGHT go to an overseas tourney, better to focus on the bigger picture, as in all of our players.
plz no more circle arguments and no more **** about customs being the same as equipment or I'm going to come to your house and ruin your day.
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swordsaint
Smash Master
What just happened
I think I'm on the wrong website, hold on.
I think I'm on the wrong website, hold on.
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SummonerAU
Smash Lord
come to my house and ruin my day luke, we can play twilight imperium after you're done :D
something something customs something pls keep so i can get out of pools
something something customs something pls keep so i can get out of pools
Luco
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2011
- Messages
- 9,232
- Location
- The isle of venom, Australia
- NNID
- dracilus
- 3DS FC
- 2638-1462-5558
@
Shaya
I'd like to be fair though, I think as time goes on we're getting more and more people in this scene who don't adhere to that 'seclusion complex' you mention. While I definitely think we do have a tendency to pull our attention inwards too and it wouldn't be a stretch to say that affects our decision making (heavily, sometimes), I also smile when I see familiar faces here jump into other threads that I frequent and I notice it happening more and more these days as time goes by. I'd like to think we're slowly breaking our mold, both within the wider smash community and within the larger FGC community.
In reality we can't help but absorb the mindset of our scene to some degree, but I also think people's opinions do come from a genuine place that isn't merely 'one person in my scene thinks this so I take that stance too.'
Genuinely though, do you really think that kind of complex is so heavily present in our scene (not the one in the sentence above but the general supposed 'insular nature' of our community)? I'm quite curious.
Shaya
I'd like to be fair though, I think as time goes on we're getting more and more people in this scene who don't adhere to that 'seclusion complex' you mention. While I definitely think we do have a tendency to pull our attention inwards too and it wouldn't be a stretch to say that affects our decision making (heavily, sometimes), I also smile when I see familiar faces here jump into other threads that I frequent and I notice it happening more and more these days as time goes by. I'd like to think we're slowly breaking our mold, both within the wider smash community and within the larger FGC community.In reality we can't help but absorb the mindset of our scene to some degree, but I also think people's opinions do come from a genuine place that isn't merely 'one person in my scene thinks this so I take that stance too.'
Genuinely though, do you really think that kind of complex is so heavily present in our scene (not the one in the sentence above but the general supposed 'insular nature' of our community)? I'm quite curious.
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swordsaint
Smash Master
I don't understand how all this philosophical/psychological bull**** such as "seclusion complex" or "insular nature" fits in to any else of this. You're literally deciding a rule-set in a video game based on how people feel like playing within the community. Let's not pretend it's anything more, stop stroking your ego and trying to feel smart by acting like it's anything more than "do we want X or do we want Y?" It's a simple decision, one that can literally be changed whenever you feel like it, the fate of the world doesn't depend on it.
If it's such a problem decision that you have to venture in to completely irrelevant topics to make a decision just put it to a damn poll and be done with it.
Or here's an idea, if you're running 3DS side tournaments which it looked like you were, you can make 3DS custom legal and Wii-U standard play.
Shaya, I came in with a very self-deprecating opinion, I was completely aware and very forthcoming about my current position (or lack there of) in the Sydney scene. I simply wanted to discuss the rule-set civilly based on the likelihood I would start coming to tournaments, I've started picking up the game online. There was no need to be a condescending prick, you're not good at it, which was seemingly ironic actually considering you're talking about the Australian scene having a seclusion complex before you tried to exclude me from the discussion by belittling my opinion based on my current investment in the game.
If it's such a problem decision that you have to venture in to completely irrelevant topics to make a decision just put it to a damn poll and be done with it.
Or here's an idea, if you're running 3DS side tournaments which it looked like you were, you can make 3DS custom legal and Wii-U standard play.
Shaya, I came in with a very self-deprecating opinion, I was completely aware and very forthcoming about my current position (or lack there of) in the Sydney scene. I simply wanted to discuss the rule-set civilly based on the likelihood I would start coming to tournaments, I've started picking up the game online. There was no need to be a condescending prick, you're not good at it, which was seemingly ironic actually considering you're talking about the Australian scene having a seclusion complex before you tried to exclude me from the discussion by belittling my opinion based on my current investment in the game.
Pazx
hoo hah
why cant we all just get along and come play no-customs in canberra on may 17th
Luco
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2011
- Messages
- 9,232
- Location
- The isle of venom, Australia
- NNID
- dracilus
- 3DS FC
- 2638-1462-5558
Thanks for answering, I guess (even if it wasn't aimed directly at me). :/ It feels like the greatest moral of this thread is just not to post.
I simply don't agree. I'm fully committed to going to the US one day, and I want to play by a ruleset that at least vaguely resembles the things they're doing because I don't want to be ostracised because my opinions are based on effectively playing a different game to the rest of the world.
The customs discussion is happening again. All over the world now. So I don't think it's unreasonable to ask whether that mindset is affecting us because if it is, maybe that's something we need to discuss.
I simply don't agree. I'm fully committed to going to the US one day, and I want to play by a ruleset that at least vaguely resembles the things they're doing because I don't want to be ostracised because my opinions are based on effectively playing a different game to the rest of the world.
The customs discussion is happening again. All over the world now. So I don't think it's unreasonable to ask whether that mindset is affecting us because if it is, maybe that's something we need to discuss.