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Australian Community Critique Thread
- Thread starter Splice
- Start date
S.D
Smash Master
Zap jumping is far from a 'must' - it is extremely rare that it has a practical use... same with thundersliding, although it is flashy and cool when it worksRegarding Lucas, regardless of character specific match-up (a.k.a. giving away all of Lucas' secrets):
- Absolutely must-learn techniques are Zap-Jumping, Magnet Pulling, and the Dair to Dtilt lock. The first two are a must for recovery, otherwise your opponent will know you will always fall and PKT2, which is very easy to punish when you know it's coming, and the Dtilt lock is Lucas' only safe kill setup. They aren't hard to learn, quite possibly the easiest techniques in the game IMO.
- Learn the range of the ledge tether grab!!! Much easier to tether the ledge than risk a PKT2
- Mix up Autocancelled SH Nairs frequently to avoid the opponent learning the timing of when to punish. It's not so much a problem on hit, but if you connect with a shield the only way to get out safely will be to trick them, and if you're lucky you'll be able to get some damage on them after all. My favourite mix ups are Jab (the stock-standard anti-shieldgrab), double Ftilt (most people don't realise just how quickly the second one comes out, and the first tilt has a bit of knockback on shield which is good), and grab (risky, but they almost never see it coming).
- Must be able to angle your PKT2 entirely through muscle memory. When I mained Lucas I could recover shoot it at any angle blindfolded, mainly because when you really -need- PKT2 you don't often have the luxury of being able to see the Thunder, especially against MK.
- Thundersliding (search Youtube if unsure) is rarely useful, but handy to learn as it's a fantastic mix up that not many people will be able to react quick enough too. Best stage to learn is on Battlefield.
- Some moves that work for some reason or another I've found are:
---AC Nair (without hitting the last hit) into Fsmash; hits a surprising amount of times, I believe due to opponents DIing the Nair upwards which then times perfectly into the Smash when they land. Definitely not reliable in the slightest, but I've gotten a lot of kills from people expecting something different.
---Magnet Stalling; when you're above someone, you can use your Magnet to stall yourself in the air, but you've got to pick your moment due to the lag. Mindgames, son. If you're offstage and high up, you can get a little bit more horizontal recovery with your Magnet stall as well, which is an added bonus
---PK Freeze; this is NOT a bad move despite what everyone on the planet believes. If you're opponent is recovering high off stage you can use Freeze to force an airdodge, leading into a free aerial in most cases. More importantly, you can mindgame this to get them to airdodge -too- early, hold the freeze and catch them as soon as their dodge is up which can result in free damage or even a surprise kill at times. Freeze is also useful as a safer, but less pressuring edgeguard against those pesky plankers, and if they somehow get hit by the freeze while planking it's a stage spike. Freeze isn't a bad move, but you have to really know when and how to use it which you can only learn through practice so try it out in friendlies.
---Autocancelled Fair; this one's a bit weird, because you have to immediately Fair after you jump - slightly too early and you fsmash/dash attack, and slightly too late and you don't AC it. Very, very, VERY useful for spacing (and retreating with RAR
Those are a few of the niches I picked up/use in my game. A lot of Lucas play is mainly tailored to your own style though, like the use of PKT mindgames, choice of PKF/Nair/Dair spam etc... If you post up a vid I can see what you're doing and stuff, but without that it's just tricks and MU knowledge, which is in the Lucas boards
Man, really want to go back to Lucas now
Lucas actually has a few d tilt lock setups aside from dair - I'd look into those.
Pivot grab exclusively, Lucas' normal grab is slow and useless as ****.
Retreating fair is one of Lucas' best spacing tools so employ that liberally.
Don't know how you feel about wavebouncing or whatever the **** it's called but I b stick with Lucas solely for easier spacing on PK Fire.. worth experimenting with imo.
Hater
Smash Ace
Zap jump is a very good way to get a lot of height for a top ko or surprise attackZap jumping is far from a 'must' - it is extremely rare that it has a practical use... same with thundersliding, although it is flashy and cool when it works
Lucas actually has a few d tilt lock setups aside from dair - I'd look into those.
Pivot grab exclusively, Lucas' normal grab is slow and useless as ****.
Retreating fair is one of Lucas' best spacing tools so employ that liberally.
Don't know how you feel about wavebouncing or whatever the **** it's called but I b stick with Lucas solely for easier spacing on PK Fire.. worth experimenting with imo.
Agree but dair is the easiest from everything i have seen
Pivot grab is a very ricky move but if you watch any top zss or tl they occasionally employ pivot grabbing its the same for lucas its a mixup sometimes the best option isnt the option you should be using.
Agree*10
If you have to rely on b sticking to wavebounce i would suggest playing tekken, you only have to push 4 buttons you might be able to handle that
EDIT: Next tourney given i have more than 4 hours sleep. I will throw some vids on here for critique ^^
Yes you can.
It's only useful on characters ZSS can CG. But since landing a dsmash is 40%, there is only a few situations in which dsmash -> grab is more profitable than dsmash combo. (namely when you dsmash an opponent without a jump offstage).
It's only useful on characters ZSS can CG. But since landing a dsmash is 40%, there is only a few situations in which dsmash -> grab is more profitable than dsmash combo. (namely when you dsmash an opponent without a jump offstage).
Oh sorry Zero. I thought It was you who told me that.
Nevermind then.
lucas uthrow --> zap jump is totally broken :D
its also good for edgeguarding snake
otherwise, as sd said, sh fair is amazing, retreat and ac and its **** hard to punish.
its also good for edgeguarding snake
otherwise, as sd said, sh fair is amazing, retreat and ac and its **** hard to punish.
C~Dog
Smash Champion
With Lucas, the important thing to do is constantly heckle your opponent.
Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
winner, winner, corndog dinner.
Zxv
Smash Lord
Shaya's reluctant to record as of these days since his recording desyncs, so EA's gonna take over recording Melee and Brawl. I'll personally make sure of it.
Tips for constructing an AMAZING Peach:pretty much could everyone be more like this just with more characters than just lucas haha
and with lots of GENERAL STUFF as well to put in the general tips section
Would be good
So much Lucas stuff
Tip 1: Use forward air.
Tip 2: Use forward air. A lot.
Tip 3: Forward air is pretty good.
Tip 4: Retreating forward air is AMAZING.
Tip 5: Advancing forward air is AMAZING.
Tip 6: Stationary forward air is AMAZING.
Tip 7: Need to apply shield pressure? Use forward air!
Tip 8: See an opening? Use forward air!
Tip 9: Opportunity to edgeguard? Use forward air!
Tip 10: Punish landings with forward air.
Tip 11: Forward air stale? USE FORWARD AIR!
Tips 12-56: Essentially reiterations of tips 1-11.
It would be funny if I weren't joking...
zxv, you forgot to mention fair --> jab :D
Zxv
Smash Lord
Tip 57: Use forward air on shield -> jab1 -> dashgrab.
Tip 58: Repeat tip 57 three times, then perform forward air -> jab1 -> bait spotdodge -> FORWARD AIR!
swordsaint
Smash Master
I hate it when 58 happens.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
I've always been a pretty good teacher and good at picking out habits in people, if anyone wants advice/help though, you'll have to come to me in person.
also the best way to get better is to travel to the great sage (toby) and have him train you, he has some amazing secrets that arnt even fair.
also the best way to get better is to travel to the great sage (toby) and have him train you, he has some amazing secrets that arnt even fair.
iKiLLOTz
Smash Journeyman
But PatV taught Toby everything he knows.
Toby said so himself
...Ellipsis...
Smash Lord
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
thats just a coverup.
toby didnt want he's secrets being taught to just anyone.
I should point out that the underlying thing in tobys gameplay that makes him so good (and would actually be good if he still practiced the game) is the same thing as tedeth (the no1 in australia)
just implemented in slightly different ways.
...Ellipsis...
Smash Lord
I found an analysis on the Snake PT match-up I wrote a while ago to troll the PT boards. It is quite long however but it is legit for all you PT mains.
First I will look at why Squirtle can destroy Snake. Squirtle has amazing manoeuvrability and can easily get around Snake’s moves. Forward tilt is easy to beat in a number of ways, you can slide in using your shield and then grab Snake after he has finished the move. When snake is on low percentages you can easily chain forward throws together and end in a forward air, or if you’re feeling lucky an up-smash. Squirtle’s up-tilt can also easily combo Snake due to his weight. Once Snake is off stage you should be able to kill him or do an easy 50%. Just keep on doing forward airs to knock him out of his recovery. Pro-tip if Snake goes to use his C4 to recover, jump off stage (if necessary) and use water gun to push him away from the mine and to his death. Snake does have a few things going for him in this match-up however, namely his up-tilt. Be very careful as I’m sure you’re aware that his move can kill Squirtle at around 80% . Snake also has a grab release on Squirtle so be careful. Another thing to remember if Snake starts spamming his grenades give him a bit of water gun for a surprise. Now that’s the basics of the match-up and I think it’s clear that Squirtle has a 60-40 advantage on Snake. Next I will cover Charizard.
I wish I could say that it is as easy with Charizard, luckily I’m able to state quite confidently that it is even easier. Now as I’m sure you all know by now Charizard has three jumps, you may wonder how this helps against Snake. The answer SPIKE. With his extra jumps Charizard is in the perfect position to follow Snake off stage and spike him out of his recovery. If Snake recovers too high this is also not a problem as you can easily return to stage before Snake and prepare to punish him in another way (a glide attack is often a good choice as it can kill Snake relatively early). Due to the nature of Charizard’s throws however, specifically forward and back throw you can easily position Snake so you can spike him. The ability to easily spike Snake also removes the problem of his ridiculous resilience to damage. Charizard has many more advantages in this match-up as well however. One of these is flame-thrower. This is the perfect spacing move which if used properly forces snake to approach you. It has the extra advantage of exploding Snake’s grenades!! I find that if Snake is getting in your face with his tilts a quick retreat to a reverse flame thrower will soon have him burning in the fires of hell. Another great tool that Charizard has at his disposal is ROCK SMASH (YEAH). If properly spaced you can quickly build up the damage on Snake with this move. Concentrate on what Snake is likely going to do and try and guess when he will pluck a grenade or lay a mine, it is as this time that you should dash for the rock smash, remember to follow it up with an upsmash is you sweet spot it. You might be thinking that the match-up is now so heavily biased towards Charizard that it should be easy, don’t worry it gets even easier. What few people realise is that Charizard’s forward smash is perfect for killing Snake. If he is recovering and looks like he will land on stage fake like you are going to jump and use a back air or other aerial, this will fool Snake into air dodging and you, instead of performing and aerial will charge a forward smash to punish his foolish air dodge. Charizard’s epic qualities continue with his awesome grab range. As Snake’s moves are often incredibly obvious it is easy to power-shield them and then follow them up with a grab. If you’re near the edge you can then try to spike snake. If not, don’t worry you can do an upthrow and then hopefully chain some up airs, failing that wait for Snake to land and the grab him again during his ending lag. Be careful however because if snake plucks a grenade in the air he has zero lag when he lands, just be cautious. With all this in Charizards favour I can’t see the match up being anything else but 65-35 Charizards way, just be wary of Snake’s respectable kill power and space those moves.
Lastly Ivysaur, unfortunately the match-up is not as easy with Ivysaur and Snake may even have a slight advantage. It may be in your best interest to switch Ivysaur out when you have the chance as the other two have a more significant advantage on Snake. If however you are a Pokemon Trainer Purist, like myself, you wouldn’t go in for any of that dirty switching. If you wish to preserve your honour Ivysaur has many tricks which you can use against Snake. One of my favourites is razor leaf. This move is AMAZING against Snake, it can blow up his grenades on the ground and even better, as he is plucking them or holding them. If you keep up the razor leaf it makes it unlike that Snake will be moving around holding grenades, it also forces Snake to approach you and this is where the game gets tricky. Now Snake’s forward tilt crushes Ivysaur if you mess your spacing up, just get those back airs going and make sure you hit him with forward tilt otherwise you’ll be eating some knee. Always be in the lookout for Snake trying to roll behind you, if he does this whip out good old bullet seed and due to his weight you can do some hefty damage to Snake. During this match up you must always be careful of Snake’s mines and forward smash as due to their fire attribute they kill Ivysaur really early. I should point out that if you get Snake into the air you have a chance to do some damage as none of his aerials are very fast, up air can actually kill snake fairly early. Despite these few tricks Ivysaur has I would still have to say the match-up is 55-45 in Snake’s favour unfortunately.
Edit: My bad all fixed.
First I will look at why Squirtle can destroy Snake. Squirtle has amazing manoeuvrability and can easily get around Snake’s moves. Forward tilt is easy to beat in a number of ways, you can slide in using your shield and then grab Snake after he has finished the move. When snake is on low percentages you can easily chain forward throws together and end in a forward air, or if you’re feeling lucky an up-smash. Squirtle’s up-tilt can also easily combo Snake due to his weight. Once Snake is off stage you should be able to kill him or do an easy 50%. Just keep on doing forward airs to knock him out of his recovery. Pro-tip if Snake goes to use his C4 to recover, jump off stage (if necessary) and use water gun to push him away from the mine and to his death. Snake does have a few things going for him in this match-up however, namely his up-tilt. Be very careful as I’m sure you’re aware that his move can kill Squirtle at around 80% . Snake also has a grab release on Squirtle so be careful. Another thing to remember if Snake starts spamming his grenades give him a bit of water gun for a surprise. Now that’s the basics of the match-up and I think it’s clear that Squirtle has a 60-40 advantage on Snake. Next I will cover Charizard.
I wish I could say that it is as easy with Charizard, luckily I’m able to state quite confidently that it is even easier. Now as I’m sure you all know by now Charizard has three jumps, you may wonder how this helps against Snake. The answer SPIKE. With his extra jumps Charizard is in the perfect position to follow Snake off stage and spike him out of his recovery. If Snake recovers too high this is also not a problem as you can easily return to stage before Snake and prepare to punish him in another way (a glide attack is often a good choice as it can kill Snake relatively early). Due to the nature of Charizard’s throws however, specifically forward and back throw you can easily position Snake so you can spike him. The ability to easily spike Snake also removes the problem of his ridiculous resilience to damage. Charizard has many more advantages in this match-up as well however. One of these is flame-thrower. This is the perfect spacing move which if used properly forces snake to approach you. It has the extra advantage of exploding Snake’s grenades!! I find that if Snake is getting in your face with his tilts a quick retreat to a reverse flame thrower will soon have him burning in the fires of hell. Another great tool that Charizard has at his disposal is ROCK SMASH (YEAH). If properly spaced you can quickly build up the damage on Snake with this move. Concentrate on what Snake is likely going to do and try and guess when he will pluck a grenade or lay a mine, it is as this time that you should dash for the rock smash, remember to follow it up with an upsmash is you sweet spot it. You might be thinking that the match-up is now so heavily biased towards Charizard that it should be easy, don’t worry it gets even easier. What few people realise is that Charizard’s forward smash is perfect for killing Snake. If he is recovering and looks like he will land on stage fake like you are going to jump and use a back air or other aerial, this will fool Snake into air dodging and you, instead of performing and aerial will charge a forward smash to punish his foolish air dodge. Charizard’s epic qualities continue with his awesome grab range. As Snake’s moves are often incredibly obvious it is easy to power-shield them and then follow them up with a grab. If you’re near the edge you can then try to spike snake. If not, don’t worry you can do an upthrow and then hopefully chain some up airs, failing that wait for Snake to land and the grab him again during his ending lag. Be careful however because if snake plucks a grenade in the air he has zero lag when he lands, just be cautious. With all this in Charizards favour I can’t see the match up being anything else but 65-35 Charizards way, just be wary of Snake’s respectable kill power and space those moves.
Lastly Ivysaur, unfortunately the match-up is not as easy with Ivysaur and Snake may even have a slight advantage. It may be in your best interest to switch Ivysaur out when you have the chance as the other two have a more significant advantage on Snake. If however you are a Pokemon Trainer Purist, like myself, you wouldn’t go in for any of that dirty switching. If you wish to preserve your honour Ivysaur has many tricks which you can use against Snake. One of my favourites is razor leaf. This move is AMAZING against Snake, it can blow up his grenades on the ground and even better, as he is plucking them or holding them. If you keep up the razor leaf it makes it unlike that Snake will be moving around holding grenades, it also forces Snake to approach you and this is where the game gets tricky. Now Snake’s forward tilt crushes Ivysaur if you mess your spacing up, just get those back airs going and make sure you hit him with forward tilt otherwise you’ll be eating some knee. Always be in the lookout for Snake trying to roll behind you, if he does this whip out good old bullet seed and due to his weight you can do some hefty damage to Snake. During this match up you must always be careful of Snake’s mines and forward smash as due to their fire attribute they kill Ivysaur really early. I should point out that if you get Snake into the air you have a chance to do some damage as none of his aerials are very fast, up air can actually kill snake fairly early. Despite these few tricks Ivysaur has I would still have to say the match-up is 55-45 in Snake’s favour unfortunately.
Edit: My bad all fixed.
squirtle beats snake? really? reeeeaaaally?
but snake can sdi squirtle's upB into a crouch then counter with utilt. isnt that right, toby?
but snake can sdi squirtle's upB into a crouch then counter with utilt. isnt that right, toby?
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
I like how you covered squirtle twice
iKiLLOTz
Smash Journeyman
Wheres the Charizard part?
BTW Squirtle ***** everyone
BTW Squirtle ***** everyone
Zxv
Smash Lord
I want to main PT now.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
what liam failed to add, was that none of this works unless you are toby.
And even then...
...Ellipsis...
Smash Lord
Water gunning Snake when he is trying to C4 recover is a legit instant kill.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
they still work on me when I vs toby, espcially water gun.
god**** it.
god**** it.
Cronos_Rainbow
Smash Champion
Hey great my calling has a thread! I'll help people (mainly for Melee though) wherever needed
Redact
Professional Nice Guy
probs is shaz that no one records stuff apart from me, but then i cant upload stuff, so its hardddd
Aight updated my file with vids vs Afro
Updated Garys file with vids vs Afro too.
Also thinking of having weekly or fortnightly "discussion" where I'll chat with a good player on MSN or something about brawl and filter the useless stuff and I can put a gallery for that here, might open some minds or something. Ledge will be first due to accessibility probably.
Got exams atm btw, trying to study lol
Updated Garys file with vids vs Afro too.
Also thinking of having weekly or fortnightly "discussion" where I'll chat with a good player on MSN or something about brawl and filter the useless stuff and I can put a gallery for that here, might open some minds or something. Ledge will be first due to accessibility probably.
Got exams atm btw, trying to study lol
Oh wow. :O In the early days of Brawl those were the guys I was playing on wifi.
I must have taught them something.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
wifi is for ******s
Silfa
Smash Ace
Felix come back!