At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

[JCaesar]

I liked NADT a lot. Easy mode= bleh.

I feel ya...

 

[Alphatron]

Well, I did prefer Plum's idea for tumble, but it apparently was not possible.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Falcon is not fantastic at all in Brawl+. He's ok though. Not too bad.

Would it be a bad idea to make Falcon's Up-B more like his Smash 64 Up-B? That being he has a longer period in which he can grab people. It feels like he grabs everything far past the time he is finished in Smash 64.

 

[goodoldganon]

I really feel that RC1 Falcon with a small tweak here or there would be a great character in GSH2's physics and evironment

 

[THO]

I don't really understand this whole idea that Falcon isn't good. His dash dance alone give him amazing pressure and add tremendously to his ability to tech chase. And IMO he holds a close tie with fox for ability to tech-chase. He has safe shield pressure, and good combos.

I think you guys are confusing his lack of ability to combo with the need to read the DI exactly (basically predict it) in order to hit again. This is absolutely true and although it makes comboing way harder (its nearly never guaranteed) it is still very much possible.

 

[GHNeko]

No one said he isnt good.

We're saying he's okay. Not too bad. but not too good. Middle man. Meh. So-So. Mid Tier.

 

[Veril]

which is totally fine... but regardless it isn't true. Falcon is awesome-sauce, we don't need to buff the s*** out of him like in 5.0

Falcon's combos are still really legit.


This makes me think about all the times people have told me MK was mediocre in B+ only to lose in dittos cause their strategies are what's actually mediocre. Whenever people are tempted to say, character x was high tier but now they suck... just consider that they might be wrong. I've had so many conversations where people have told me some combo doesn't work anymore (Rob's d-throw nair is a great example of this) and I've just gone, tested it, and found that the combo does in fact work.

 

[GHNeko]

People need more Falcon Kick and Dive. I see so many Falcon+ videos with No Dive finishing. Knee set ups work best around 50-90% than after that, they become not so good.

That's when you go for Dive.

use the ****ing dive guys. I **** you not.

How are you guys supposed to get better if you don't use all your tools and see how effective things are. People play Falcon like Melee and lock out moves that have been buffed to the point of them actually being useful.

 

[goodoldganon]

which is totally fine... but regardless it isn't true. Falcon is awesome-sauce, we don't need to buff the s*** out of him like in 5.0

Falcon's combos are still really legit.


This makes me think about all the times people have told me MK was mediocre in B+ only to lose in dittos cause their strategies are what's actually mediocre. Whenever people are tempted to say, character x was high tier but now they suck... just consider that they might be wrong. I've had so many conversations where people have told me some combo doesn't work anymore (Rob's d-throw nair is a great example of this) and I've just gone, tested it, and found that the combo does in fact work.

Show me what moves Falcon can use to combo into the knee at any killing percentage. Assuming any form of decent DI of course because Falcon only has 2-3 moves that can set it up, all of which can be DI'd relatively similarly. Cause as of right now I can't find a single move in training mode or practice.

I'm totally fine and willing to accept my timing might be poor and that's all there is to this, but I find it hard to believe I can't find a single setup for the knee.

And stop with the 'buffing the **** out of Falcon in 5.0.' Cause it's pretty much not true. Ness got buffed to **** and was broken. Falcon could barely be classified top 10 in RC1. He losts tons of **** that made him good in RC1 cause people treated him like he was top 5 when it's laughable to consider him that good.

Neko, the Falcon Dive setups are so few and far between it hardly matters. It's so easy to see it coming and just jump away or dodge. Sure when it hits it's nice but it's hardly something to count on.

 

[GHNeko]

Below 60% = Knee
Above 60% = Dive

<_>

Cawwwmaaawwnnn. Falcon has soo many set ups into Dive at high percents. And Dive kills mad well.

 

[goodoldganon]

Below 60% = Knee
Above 60% = Dive

<_>

Cawwwmaaawwnnn. Falcon has soo many set ups into Dive at high percents. And Dive kills mad well.

I'll look into it, though I can't think of any besides D-air and raptor boost. U-throw won't combo at any killing percentage unless you get a grab right at the edge.

 

[GHNeko]

Uthrow at high percents? That's perfect for Dive imo. It's a grab and it grabs for a respectable distance away. Just space it properly and you're golden.

And it's really not hard to read the DI properly to get the Dive from Uthrow.

 

[goodoldganon]

Uthrow at high percents? That's perfect for Dive imo. It's a grab and it grabs for a respectable distance away. Just space it properly and you're golden.

In raid at the moment, so hopefully I can check afterwords. Depends on how long it takes to format my OS to Windows 7. Either way I'm getting off topic. As of now I still think C.F. is low mid tier, which if that's ok then that's the discussion but I'd hate to see the face of Smash reduced to low tier.

 

[GHNeko]

Once people start experimenting and thinking-out-of-the-box (omg that phrase again), they'll learn and improve.

 

[ValTroX]

which is totally fine... but regardless it isn't true. Falcon is awesome-sauce, we don't need to buff the s*** out of him like in 5.0

Falcon's combos are still really legit.


This makes me think about all the times people have told me MK was mediocre in B+ only to lose in dittos cause their strategies are what's actually mediocre. Whenever people are tempted to say, character x was high tier but now they suck... just consider that they might be wrong. I've had so many conversations where people have told me some combo doesn't work anymore (Rob's d-throw nair is a great example of this) and I've just gone, tested it, and found that the combo does in fact work.

Falcon feels fine in my hands, I think the knee could use a tiny tiny tiny bit more power, but he's great overall. I do think MK is mediocre in B+, I mean he DOES feel like he's lacking something.

 

[Veril]

MK is amazing. Its just the nado that sucks. He's got an incredible moveset overall and an insane recovery. He also eats kittens. I love this character.

Once people start experimenting and thinking-out-of-the-box (omg that phrase again), they'll learn and improve.

Its like in this box falcon is simultaneously low and high tier.

Spoiler

OMG physics joke ftw

You have to take Falcon out of the box. Its dark and there's no air...

Stop obsessing about knee combos like that's all falcon can do.

 

[GHNeko]

GHS2 Falcon = Schrödinger's Falcon

 

[MK26]

rofl

we dont know if hes good or not until we look in the box

so play him in tourneys, yo

bust open that box

i never understood why schrodinger didnt just throw the kitty in a glass box

or if the kitty realized he was both alive and dead

paradoxes ftl

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

...I use the knee majority of the time whenever I kill in high percentages. Heck I use more than 7 knees in a match usually. XD It's pretty easy to land. Always has been in B+. Dive on the other hand is only a good kill if you're near the death zone and somehow by some god of a miracle actually manage to land it without the enemy easily dodge out the way, or it just misses, or doesn't go high enough and you lose either a life or the match. x_x

I don't see why someone is being so obsessive over Falcon Dive when it's not THAT great of a move. It's nowhere near being a bad move, it's good, but definitely not so freaking amazing that it makes you yell out in success. XD

...Wait...

 

[Shadic]

The Dive is hilariously stylish.

(Still could use a "YESZ!" on a Knee connect, though.)

 

[PanzerOceania]

I never did release the proper version of that code that breaks the platforms before "GO". I never did release one explaining how to tweak it for non-Brawl+ things either. O well.

care to enlighten us?

 

[CT Chia]

Ok well since I can't post in the WBR anymore...

Someone from back there mind telling me why I was kicked out all of a sudden in the last hour?

.... anyone?

 

[Bandit]

I just goof around with Falcon and abuse the B moves. Other than his stupid auto-knee combos being eliminated, I'm not sure why anyone would think that he's still not a great character. He overcomes so many match-ups that he never stood a chance in with vBrawl.

Too many fan boy reactions to Falcon. I loathe the fact that he was ever put in a smash game.

 

[ZeonStar]

Im not sure what to think about ganon's downthrow change. I like it, but at the same time, im not sure if I like it. Ive noticed its a good setup for downthrow>downb mindgames, but ill just have to play with it more.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

So, just a few cents on the Falcon conversation. There are a lot of comments about how Falcon was better in RC1. I'd just like to point out that this is pretty much faulty beta test reasoning. Lots of things were better in RC1. Gannondorf's SideB for example. Loved that hitbox, but it was too big so it got reduced in size and now he is a more properly balanced character.

A friend of mine, tourney level Melee player, came up from florida this last week. This was his first time playing B+, and he did just fine with Shrodinger's Falcon. He his off plenty of knee and dive comboes and even spike setups. It's just that his knee comboes are different from RC1 knee comboes, and, since there are fewer knee setups, you have to utilize Falcons other moves. No character should have one "go to" move. That is a sign of imbalance. The fact that Falcon has to mix up his game a bit more is pretty much proof that he has at least taken a step in the right direction. At the very least he is more fun to play.

Sayiing "revert this to RC1" is never a good fix. Try to beta test as if RC1 never existed. Look at what happened with Squirtles f-air. It was changed to fix an imbalance, but it wasn't liked. Nobody said "RC1 F-AIR PLZ!" Instead we found a whole other way to fix him, and it worked. If new falcon doesn't jive with you, suggest a way to change him. He was changed from RC1 because RC1 wasn't working. So suggest something else. Don't point fingers at an imbalance game state and say "THAT, WANTS THAT, ALSO I MAIN NESS!"

This is a beta test people. Step forward, not backward. If you don't like it, suggest a fix.

Also, one other thing. I can't believe we are on the NADT subject again. I have said pretty much everything I needed to about NADT in the last thread. I think this build actually handles quite decently. Lots of mindgames. Characters will either experience a slight lag before the AD if they wiggle, or a vulnerability after if they just tumble dodge. Trying to bait and punish a tumble AD against a tap AD doesn't work and gets you hit, and trying to aggro pressure a tumble AD like a tap AD also doesn't work and gets you hit. Overall, I say we struck a good balance.

So, since I have nothing more to say on the matter, I will now use my time more productively by taking off my pants and dancing the salsa to Livin La Vida Loca. *Takes off pants, starts dancing, looks down* Hey guys! I'm not 5ive! Mystery solved!

 

[VietGeek]

that last line was sooooooooooooo rude imo

maybe we all need to dashdance camp into nairs moar

 

[SymphonicSage12]

RPGs is winnar

And Butterfree is still feeling excited


and has one foot

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

The Dive is hilariously stylish.

(Still could use a "YESZ!" on a Knee connect, though.)

Is this even possible? We can make him say yes everytime he uses the knee, but is there actually a way to make him say it only when it sweetspots? o_o

 

[Alphatron]

Is this even possible? We can make him say yes everytime he uses the knee, but is there actually a way to make him say it only when it sweetspots? o_o

Brawl- did this so...yeah its entirely possible.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Brawl- did this so...yeah its entirely possible.

...Time to crack open PSA then. Thanks Alpha. XD

 

[kr3wman]

So, just a few cents on the Falcon conversation. There are a lot of comments about how Falcon was better in RC1. I'd just like to point out that this is pretty much faulty beta test reasoning. Lots of things were better in RC1. Gannondorf's SideB for example. Loved that hitbox, but it was too big so it got reduced in size and now he is a more properly balanced character.

A friend of mine, tourney level Melee player, came up from florida this last week. This was his first time playing B+, and he did just fine with Shrodinger's Falcon. He his off plenty of knee and dive comboes and even spike setups. It's just that his knee comboes are different from RC1 knee comboes, and, since there are fewer knee setups, you have to utilize Falcons other moves. No character should have one "go to" move. That is a sign of imbalance. The fact that Falcon has to mix up his game a bit more is pretty much proof that he has at least taken a step in the right direction. At the very least he is more fun to play.

Sayiing "revert this to RC1" is never a good fix. Try to beta test as if RC1 never existed. Look at what happened with Squirtles f-air. It was changed to fix an imbalance, but it wasn't liked. Nobody said "RC1 F-AIR PLZ!" Instead we found a whole other way to fix him, and it worked. If new falcon doesn't jive with you, suggest a way to change him. He was changed from RC1 because RC1 wasn't working. So suggest something else. Don't point fingers at an imbalance game state and say "THAT, WANTS THAT, ALSO I MAIN NESS!"

This is a beta test people. Step forward, not backward. If you don't like it, suggest a fix.

revert to RC1 falcon. that's my suggestion for a fix.

:/ Pretty stupid reasoning. If something ain't broke and you break it, you try to fix it. Even in RC1 falcon wasn't that good, so what's stopping people to go back to RC1 and branch off another path to fix him. If RC1 falcon hit a little harder with a faster grab he'd be perfect.

 

[Alphatron]

RC1 Falcon could combo into the knee at 120%+...

Since I haven't seriously played Falcon since 64, I have no idea what to suggest for him. I don't find him terrible, but he could use some improvement.

 

[kr3wman]

jiggs could combo into rest at 120%+...

 

[GHNeko]

There were a lot combos into kill moves with RC1 at like 120%+. Ganon Dair > Side B/Uair/Fair/Bair. Marth Dair Up B/Uair. Marth Fthrow > Something that kills. Mario Meteor Fair > Doc Fair. Mario Dthrow > Doc Fair. D3 Dair > Bair/Fair.

The list goes on. >_>

120%+ is death percents. A lot of things can combo into kill moves at 120%+ in RC1.

 

[Alphatron]

The problem with all of that is that those characters were able to combo with those moves long before killing percent. No matter the damage, if I wanted to staqrt a combo with Falcon, I'd nair to whatever else I wanted. With Ness, I'd use the fair. With Jiggs, I'd uair.

I've always viewed certain moves like that as a bit too good. They start comboing from near 0%. And they'll combo your opponent all the way to his/her grave. What exactly was stopping you from throwing them out whenever the hell you wanted to?

 

[goodoldganon]

I really feel the new angle or KB or stats or whatever for his n-air feel off and having the RC1 nair would fix all of my problems. I'd assume the lower hitstun would fix the easy mode knee combos, but more importantly I feel it would leave the opponent close enough so that ADing out of tumble wasn't an option from N-air. On a side note, most of Falcon's problems would be fixed if there was more startup on ADs in tumble.

That or give him a better way to set up the tech chase. If d-tilt tripped for example (just the first thing that came to mind). Hell 'id love to take a page from Ganondorf and use his D-throw angle. Dthrow sets up for techs at early percents as does N-air but after like 20 or 30% people aren't going to DI for the tech, they are too far away.

I'm totally fine admitting that maybe I'm just not playing Falcon right and maybe I'm just not a fast of enough thinker, but I don't know. If he just had some move to set up tech chases he'd be great. He'd work from there to set up the combo instead of the 'easy' RC1 combos. Hell, I'd take a reliable move that sets up a tech chase (a throw, tilt, etc) for a damage nerf to N-air or U-air. That's just me.

 

[RPGsFTW]

RPGs is winnar

RPGs is my name. He is just RPG. I almost always get called RPGs irl at tourneys, if the person doesn't just say my real name. So, really, it's confusing to hear anyone call him RPGs when he doesn't even have an "s" after his RPG.

And I don't think the tourney level stuff helps much. I played Melee in tourney level with my friends at Vegas Smash a lot. I also played a pretty good Falcon, even though I mained Doc. I'd still say that GSH2 Falcon is nothing special. Not bad, but not good really. Just like GoG said, if he was meant to be mid tier, not high for once, then he's in the right spot so far.

 

[iLink]

You guys make it sound like having kill set ups is a bad thing.

I still say Falcon just needs the angle raised on Nair.

 

[CloneHat]

If I remember, in RC1 Falcon had the hardest time comboing into knee at mid percents, that was when you needed to read DI the most. Low percents were naturally pretty easy, and if you had to kill them with the knee at 120%+, it wasn't necessarily a good thing.

I personally liked the GSH1 dthrow, it worked well with the NADT. That throw with a slight angle increase (to make DIing up an actual useful option) would be the optimum dthrow for me.

 

[_Phloat_]

BAM!


I sat here and read every. single. post. in this thread.

Gettin hyped for this codeset, stuff looks great, our local tournies are switching to GSH2 over RC1, yay.