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At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

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RPGsFTW

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Basically, you're immune from being tripped again while you're already on your ***.
Ah, so I wasn't being that stupid with the understanding. That's good to hear. :chuckle:

Quick question. Opinions on Wolf's Bthrow/Uthrow? Any useful for combos? I try them, but they don't seem too special. I mean, as long as it doesn't take that long to cool down after the throw it may be useful due to mindgames and reading an opponents air dodge, but I can't say at the moment. It's definitely not garbage, imo, so far.

Oh, and because I forgot. Thanks to whoever uploaded the videos! =]
 

Isatis

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I uploaded them (lyokan = old name).

Ironic considering my old street number was 629...LOL.
 

GHNeko

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Ah, so I wasn't being that stupid with the understanding. That's good to hear. :chuckle:

Quick question. Opinions on Wolf's Bthrow/Uthrow? Any useful for combos? I try them, but they don't seem too special. I mean, as long as it doesn't take that long to cool down after the throw it may be useful due to mindgames and reading an opponents air dodge, but I can't say at the moment. It's definitely not garbage, imo, so far.

Oh, and because I forgot. Thanks to whoever uploaded the videos! =]
Wolf Bthrow can CG fast fallers with no DI/bad DI at low percents.

You can also combo from bthrow with no DI/bad DI with turn around utilt and i think usmash.

Because there is only one method of good DI, its an easy throw to read DI with.

And at low mid to high mid percents, sets up for a free aerial on majority of the roster.

So really, go into training mode and learn the timing for CGs and get a friend to practice good DI against Bthrow and learn the best/most potent follow ups.
 

RPGsFTW

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Thanks, then, Bionic! =]

Interesting stuff, Neko. I'll try it out some more some time. I have done Bthrow -> aerial sometimes, but I always thought it was just an opponent's bad DI that let it work. Good to know. So I'm guessing Uthrow isn't necessary for Wolf then, huh? Bthrow does Uthrow's job, but better? Haha.

I'm thinking heavily about picking Sonic, not mainly, at this next tournament, but I'm not too sure. Only thing that sucks is that here, out Brawl+ singles and doubles tournaments alternate. Therefore, this Sunday, it'll be doubles, and I much prefer singles. I don't do as well in doubles, but I'd kinda wanna blame my teammates, though that'd be wrong of me. The people I've teamed with just don't seem to work so well together. Sonic seems to be fine as a team assist I'd guess. Though Wario is usually who I pick in doubles as well.

Any opinions on who teams well with Wario? I'd prefer not to be Wolf in doubles, actually. I feel safer as Wario, in doubles anyway.
 

Isatis

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The only problem with Sonic is he isn't really team oriented, since he's one of the people that works better defensively, and when you're in a situation where you have to be offensive, you're going to fail. It's why I usually go my secondary (G&W) in these circumstances
 

JCaesar

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Wolf's uthrow is better vs FFers at low-mid %s, specifically when they know how to fight Wolf. Wolf's bthrow can be DIed to have no followups. Wolf's uthrow can't, as long as they don't get thrown too high. Wolf's bthrow still tends to be his best throw most of the time because sooooo many people DI it wrong and it sets up fair into kill %s on most of the cast when DIed poorly.

I think bthrow might set up side-B at certain %s with certain DIs, but I'm not sure because I rarely go for it.



And Lucario's recovery is fine, liek srsly. Lucario is beastly in this set (top 5 imo) and I would cry if he got any buffs.
 

Revven

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Also RPGs, Dair is a very good aerial now. At high %s, you have more than three ways to kill someone after you hit them with Dair if they fail to DI it:

1) Side B sweetspot
2) Up B (the last hit sends them up so likely, you'll get a star KO)
3) Fair
4) Bair

Side B is the hardest to land but SO SATISFYING when you get it. And Up B is the easiest imo. Also, I noticed that your Wolf doesn't really space Bairs all day, you need to start doing that, it's his best aerial. His jab is also good as a GTFO move.
 

Akuma2120

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Hey, in those videos, how'd they get Skyworld's platforms to act like that, some blew up right at the beginning, I'm guessing there's a code for it.

Does anyone have it? I like that level but the platforms annoy me the way they originally are.
 

CT Chia

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I got my charizard too son
as long as its got my team texture on it. the only charizard is blue charizard
 

Daakun

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Hey, in those videos, how'd they get Skyworld's platforms to act like that, some blew up right at the beginning, I'm guessing there's a code for it.

Does anyone have it? I like that level but the platforms annoy me the way they originally are.
From the current beta build;

Skyworld Platforms [Dantarion]
4A000000 90000000
20623090 0000001E
48000000 805B8ADC
120001F0 00070000
12000200 0007FFFF
12000210 00010000
051514CC 60000000
E0000000 80008000
 

Dantarion

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I never did release the proper version of that code that breaks the platforms before "GO". I never did release one explaining how to tweak it for non-Brawl+ things either. O well.
 

CT Chia

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Ok well since I can't post in the WBR anymore...

Someone from back there mind telling me why I was kicked out all of a sudden in the last hour?
 

RPGsFTW

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Also RPGs, Dair is a very good aerial now.
Haha, I think I've gotten all of those as kills now. I do plenty of Up-B/Fair kills with it. Personally I don't use Wolf's Bair as much would think because the good players here don't get hit by it as often. It just seems to make a lousy wall sometimes. And I'm sure I use it more against SK than it looks like, since that was only one video. I jab with Wolf a lot, I know that already. I jab grab all the time, and hope for Dsmashes sometimes too, haha.

And JCaesar, I'll try the Uthrow/Bthrow against my friends some more. I just tried using Uthrows, in general, more against my friends due to air dodge reads and what not.

I'm surprised that no one picks Wolf at our tourneys. Only one guy picks Wario here, besides me, and he usually goes Wario in vBrawl, not Brawl+. He's still sorta figuring out if he loves Bowser the most or not.
 

goodoldganon

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I think Falcon is lacking in GSH2.

There I said it. Flame away. If Falcon is ok at being mid or low mid tier then just say 'Falcon doesn't have to be a high tier for it to be a Smash game' and that is that. I'm of the camp that truly believes Falcon is the most exciting character in the game to watch and is the face of the series. I don't believe he is all that great in GSH2. Here's my dealio.

Falcon's combos are weak. He has a couple of low percentage combos (that extend into mid percentages against the fastest fallers). These combos are stale, easy to DI out of, and offer virtually no solid folllowups. Even without any DI, everything Falcon does puts someone JUST far enough away where it isn't a true combo and is therefore pretty easy to escape. With any amount of DI Falcon's major combo moves, (N-air and throws are his best setups IMO) are basically useless. DI's down and away on Falcon's N-air can allow you to tech if done right at the proper percents, but just DI'ing straight away gives 95% of the cast the ability to jump out of the way. Hell, with the Hybrid NADT you can AD half the **** he tries to follow up with. D-throw only ever truly combos into U-air unelss the enemy poorly DIs and you aren't killing with that till the 150-160s.

Which brings me to my next problem. It seems the speedups on his smashes were removed from RC1 (I played GSH1 once or twice it may have been removed then. Sue me it was around exam time.) When nothing he does combos into any decent finisher it becomes frustrating to ever land a kill. Even characters like Mario have OoS d-smash or something. Sure it won't kill till late, but it's an option. If someone gets into the mid 100s Falcon goes from having unreliable but somehwat predictable setups, to none. N-air, his throws, hell even D-air knock everyone to far away or are too easy to DI properly. Falcon is left runnin around hoping to beat aerials with his N-air until he can get a lucky U-air in at the side.

Lastly, without good reliable damage combos and ways to setup into his knee Falcon is left with nothing. Look at all the combo characters. Each one of them has something special on top of good combos. Besides for Mario all of them have some of the best speed in the game. Let's see:

  • Mario: His gimp game
  • Sheik: Projectiles, a teher, transform (for whatever that is worth), croawldashing
  • Fox: A campy projectile when combined with his speed, a reflector, good priority, high power kill move that doesn't have to be combo'd into.
  • Wolf: amazing pressure game and range, great KO power, a somewhat unpredicabtle recovery with side-b

I could think of others but I'm at the office and shouldn't be posting. The point I'm really trying to make is what does Falcon have that makes him, well CAPTAIN FALCON! He's got his speed and the knee bu he doesn't really have anything else. Falcon is a somewhat straightforward guy. He doesn't use ***** **** like guns or reflectors. He has always just jumped in there and punished mistakes as hard or harder then any character in the series. I don't know if his N-air lost luster since RC1, but it certainly isn't beating as much as I remember so he really can't even make a great approach to try and even force the mistake. Even his intiail dash is way too long making dash cancelling a d-tilt a huge pain to try and do.,

TL:DR
Falcon is a mediocre character in GSH2. There are probably a few characters worse then him so if we concisder it ok for Falcon to be a balanced low-mid tier then thats that. Falcon is not that great because:

  1. Nothing he does trues combos past 20-30% on anyone who isn't the fastest fallers.
  2. This becomes a problem because people know his setups into his finisher (the knee) and therefore are always looking to DI away from it or jump out of it. Even if Falcon predicts the jump the best he can do is an u-air which is laughable punishment combared to a knee.
  3. Without a reliable way to combo into the knee Falcon has to try and KO with something else since past 130 you will never get an opportunity to even bait a knee.
  4. Falcon is a no nonsense character since Smash 64. He lives and dies on the punishment game. No one punishes or gets punished harder then Falcon. Falcon can sure get punished pretty hard in GSH2, but he can't punish well enough
Perosnally I'd like to try a few things if peopel agree with me that Falcon isn't nearly manly enough. I am not suggesting to do all of these just pick and choose.

  1. First I'd like to try putting RC1 Falcon's pac into GSH2. Watch how he fairs and buff or nerf accordingly.
  2. Second, I would suggest increasing the hitstun. Leafgreen mentioned that you guys originally though GSH2 was at 4.6 (Ibelieve) but it really at 4.55. Either way what ever the number is it's basically .5 smaller than what you originally thought. With the Hybrid NADT and buffering escaping combos is much, MUCH easier then it was in GSH1. I feel with Hybrid NADT being a completley viable way to escape strings (it doesn't take much practice to just anticiapte the AD lag and dodge accordingly) we could stand to buff hitstun up by 0.5 or even 0.75.
  3. Third, we could bring back the Melee knee. I'm talking the whole grand shebang. Increase the size and what not. Make it his all in 1 move. It can be used for approaches and a go to mistake punisher. Doesn't need to be combo'd into or anything.

The choices are yours and I'm sure there are otherwise to do it, but as it is now Falcon is lacking and that's not right.
 

iLink

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Personally I just think the angle on Nair needs to be raised a tad, it really doesn't lead into anything if they DI away and jump.

EDIT: I thought his smashes were slower now but wasn't sure, I guess it's true.
 

CloneHat

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Oh yeah, bair was also weakened from RC1? There's another one of his killers nerfed. Does anyone know why its KB was lowered?
 

Alphatron

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Psp post.

RC1 Falcon was overpowered. Most of his moves could combo into the knee at 130%+ or so(not factoring DI). His nair was pretty ridiculous as well.

Though I'll wait for someone else to speak on GSH2 Falcon. I haven't been able to play much lately.
 

GHNeko

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RC1 Falcon wasnt even the best and had multiple exploitable weaknesses. Top 10 maybe. Top 5? Debatable.

Also. GoG, Falcon Kick more and Falcon Dive more.
 

iLink

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With the reduced winddown on falcon kick, it can effectively be used to start combos, although you need to read the DI pretty well to do so.
 

GHNeko

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Are you saying Falcon kick is a kill move?
Falcon Kick can kill in the really high percents. 150%+ish, based on character weight and DI as well as position. It can also tech chase like wiztruck, be comboed into and out off, and it edge guards well against those with poor recoveries. It's a decent damage move as well. It's not to be spammed, but when used right, is a okay move and should be integrated into Falcon's meta-game.

With the reduced winddown on falcon kick, it can effectively be used to start combos, although you need to read the DI pretty well to do so.
^ and more.
 

goodoldganon

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I will certainly try Falcon Kicking more, though I find it hard to believe it will solve those problems, but hey if it's two thirds as good as Ganon's it will be a hell of a start.
 

GHNeko

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If you can tech chase with Wiztruck you can with Falcon kick, and based on DI, you might be able to combo off it too.

Also. Falcon Dive. More.
 

goodoldganon

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If you can tech chase with Wiztruck you can with Falcon kick, and based on DI, you might be able to combo off it too.

Also. Falcon Dive. More.
From what? Sure it's pretty close to the 64 glory but it's such a high risk move and it's pretty slow to start up. The only thing I can think of his high percentage D-airs (which I have been doing and is pretty sexy) or low percentage U-throws with no DI.
 

iLink

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I don't find Falcon Dive very useful past 50% except on fastfallers. Half the reason is because you can see it coming soon enough to dodge/shield. I find dair to be a better option more often then not.
 

goodoldganon

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I don't find Falcon Dive very useful past 50% except on fastfallers. Half the reason is because you can see it coming soon enough to dodge/shield.
Eating predicatable recoveries is always funny yet can lead to horribly embarassing suicides :p

The only time I will ever use Falcon Dive is forstyle off the edge combos or after a d-air in high percentages where a double jump'd knee won't reach.

Define easy mode.
As in the only time you want to wiggle is when (for some reason) the only way you are going to escape the attack is with an AD and the few extra frames will be killer. I don't find the extra lag on the AD out of tumble to be enough and after a half hour of play it is not tough to gauge the extra time. Sure, the opponent can bait the AD and punish, but you could do that in vBrawl.
 

GHNeko

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From what? Sure it's pretty close to the 64 glory but it's such a high risk move and it's pretty slow to start up. The only thing I can think of his high percentage D-airs (which I have been doing and is pretty sexy) or low percentage U-throws with no DI.
Side B, Dair, Uthrow, Dthrow, and I think Nair can go into Kick. Off Kick? Uair, but that's pretty much it. It's a high risk move yes, which is why you dont use it a lot, but it gives you good rewards when you do everything right.

I don't find Falcon Dive very useful past 50% except on fastfallers. Half the reason is because you can see it coming soon enough to dodge/shield. I find dair to be a better option more often then not.
Up B is supposed to be a finisher at high percents or after a string of uairs/uair combos. Uthrow,Uair, and Dair lead into Falcon Dive well.
 

TLMSheikant

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As in the only time you want to wiggle is when (for some reason) the only way you are going to escape the attack is with an AD and the few extra frames will be killer. I don't find the extra lag on the AD out of tumble to be enough and after a half hour of play it is not tough to gauge the extra time. Sure, the opponent can bait the AD and punish, but you could do that in vBrawl.
Basically this.
 

kr3wman

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Falcon was always mediocre in b+

RC1 falcon was viable but not top tier material
 
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