Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

That is common sense, which I was not making reference to.

If both players know how to play the match up appropriately, it is nearly even. Marth simply has too many answers to Meta Knights options. Meta Knight has more options in a wider variety of circumstances, this is true. But Marth has what he needs to win on a consistent basis.

Marth will never out right maul Meta Knight, match up wise. But he is definitely capable of going with and besting Meta Knight. A massive reservoir of skill isn't necessary, merely match up experience, and possibly proper counter pick stage choice.



What gives you the impression that it was in need of a reply? I was just throwing my opinion out there.

Then again on the flipside of your argument is this: if the MK has lots of Marth experience, he'll win most likely, even if the Marth user has MK experience. It is true that Marth has lots of answers to MK's options under most circumstances, but if MK knows how to get around Marth's "answers," then MK can win. IMO, For a Marth to win against an MK consistently, one of these circumstances must be the case:

1.
MK is bad
Marth is great

2.
MK and Marth have same skill
Marth has experience vs. MK, but opposite is not true.

3.
Marth is great, and has matchup experience.
MK is bad and has little/no matchup experience.

 

[Ulevo]

but no one cares about your opinion

I'm perfectly fine with that provided I am entitled to it. Which I am.

 

[Ulevo]

Then again on the flipside of your argument is this: if the MK has lots of Marth experience, he'll win most likely, even if the Marth user has MK experience. It is true that Marth has lots of answers to MK's options under most circumstances, but if MK knows how to get around Marth's "answers," then MK can win. IMO, For a Marth to win against an MK consistently, one of these circumstances must be the case:

1.
MK is bad
Marth is great

2.
MK and Marth have same skill
Marth has experience vs. MK, but opposite is not true.

3.
Marth is great, and has matchup experience.
MK is bad and has little/no matchup experience.

And your point is?

These are fundamental aspects pertaining to Meta Knight as both Brawls best character (supposedly), and Marths worst opponent. This does not differ with any other example you can provide me.

The point I am making is that under normal circumstances in tournament or competitive settings, if both players are roughly around the same level of intelligence, experience, and skill, the difference between the two characters is negligible. Meta Knight won't out right destroy Marth, and he won't beat him consistently either. The difficulty of the match up suggests that the results will be determined by the players using the characters mostly, as opposed to the characters themselves.

In order for one to outright beat the other on a consistent basis, there has to be a significant difference of quality between the two players in question. This applies for both characters. This is all I am pointing out.

 

[feardragon64]

Ulevo. what is Marth's response to the fact that all of MK's ground options outrange any viable approach option?

If you say don't approach, then that severly limits Marth to a one-sided game of defense. That leaves Marth to be defensive. That is a HUGE disadvantage. You've said it yourself already, it's Marth's worst match-up and "supposedly" the best character in the game. How can Marth consistently defeat an MK of the same level of skill if he has BOTH of those to his disadvantage?

In all honestly I'm just wondering WHY you think that so no attacks on you or anything. I just want to know.
Although I have to admit I just imagined that you're response will be a one liner.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

 

[Ulevo]

Ulevo. what is Marth's response to the fact that all of MK's ground options outrange any viable approach option?

If you say don't approach, then that severly limits Marth to a one-sided game of defense. That leaves Marth to be defensive. That is a HUGE disadvantage. You've said it yourself already, it's Marth's worst match-up and "supposedly" the best character in the game. How can Marth consistently defeat an MK of the same level of skill if he has BOTH of those to his disadvantage?

In all honestly I'm just wondering WHY you think that so no attacks on you or anything. I just want to know.
Although I have to admit I just imagined that you're response will be a one liner.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Meta Knights ground options do not defeat the perfectly viable options given to Marth.

Meta Knights approach options are Tornado, Shuttle Loop, FTilt, DTilt, FSmash, DSmash and Fair.

Tornado can be beaten by a plethora of Marths attacks. You as a Marth main should be aware of this, so I won't explain further. Shuttle Loop telegraphs itself, and is easily punished after activation. Glide Attack be punished via shield, perfect shield or Standard A.

FTilt is out ranged by Marths DTilt. I clearly outlined that in my thread regarding priority comparisons. DTilt is beaten by Fair, since the vertical hit box on DTilt is poor and obviously cannot hit an aerial opponent. DSmash is easily out spaced by DTilt, FTilt, and I believe Fair and Standard A.

Dancing Blade has transcended priority, so anything that does not out range it will lose in a priority war. Fair is beaten by basically everything, and is very easy to punish because of commitment lag.

The hardest tool Meta Knight has for Marth to deal with is FSmash, which most Meta Knights do not even use, although this shouldn't really be accounted for. Let's also not forget that you have your shield.

So no, Meta Knight does not simply out range all of Marths viable options for approach. Also, for the record, the player who is on the defensive will always have the advantage in Brawl, regardless of who the character is, or who the character it is you are facing. Brawls overly defensive style emphasizes this. Why you would assume this puts Marth at a disadvantage is beyond my comprehension.

Basically, it all comes down to psychology. There is no sure fire win strategy that effectively works consistently for each character on the other. They are fairly even in that respect. I also want to out line that Meta Knight being "supposedly" the best character is not a disadvantage to Marth. Meta Knights placement in tier is not reflective of how he does against x character or y character. Meta Knight being Marths worst match up is, however that does not properly describe exactly what "worst match up" constitutes.

 

[Steel]

"Also, for the record, the player who is on the defensive will always have the advantage in Brawl, regardless of who the character is, or who the character it is you are facing. "

Well, that's completely false.

 

[Ulevo]

"Also, for the record, the player who is on the defensive will always have the advantage in Brawl, regardless of who the character is, or who the character it is you are facing. "

Well, that's completely false.

While in a defensive position you have all options available to you. While on the offensive, your options are limited to whatever situation you committed yourself to. This is common sense.

It doesn't hold true for 100% of the time, but on a majority it does. When I said "always", I generalized. To state it is completely false isn't constructively debating anything.

But we are all entitled to give our opinion, correct?

 

[feardragon64]

I'll get back to responding to your post later(I just realized I should NOT be on smashboards right now. I have a ****load of school work >>) but quick note on what you said:

You say that ftilt is beat out by dtilt and dtilt is beat out by fair. MK can chain dtilt into ftilt with buffers. Basically MK can respond to Marth's approach with a single dtilt. If Marth approaches with dtilt, MK beats him out in range and speed. If Marth decides to approach with fair, MK can quickly buffer the ftilt and can beat him to the punch. Honestly, MK's dtilt and ftilt are what scares me the most about approaching him.

And about your argument with steel, the aggressor has a distinct advantage in being able to choose the method of approach. The defender is forced to either play by reaction or play the guessing game in rock-paper-scissors. But if you look at what I said earlier, MK can play the game of rock-paper-scissors, pick rock, and a quarter of a second after you choose paper switch to scissors. Hope that doesn't just confuse you further >>

 

[Steel]

Your... options are limited when you're defensive. You're hanging back letting your opponent do whatever he wants while you are hoping he runs into your sword or shield. If you're aggressive you limit your opponent's options because you approach them and corner them. Doesn't sound to me like defensive has that many options, where as aggressive can do whatever he wants.

That's not an opinion either, it's fact.

You have it backwards. Completely.

 

[Ulevo]

I'll get back to responding to your post later(I just realized I should NOT be on smashboards right now. I have a ****load of school work >>) but quick note on what you said:

You say that ftilt is beat out by dtilt and dtilt is beat out by fair. MK can chain dtilt into ftilt with buffers. Basically MK can respond to Marth's approach with a single dtilt. If Marth approaches with dtilt, MK beats him out in range and speed. If Marth decides to approach with fair, MK can quickly buffer the ftilt and can beat him to the punch. Honestly, MK's dtilt and ftilt are what scares me the most about approaching him.

And about your argument with steel, the aggressor has a distinct advantage in being able to choose the method of approach. The defender is forced to either play by reaction or play the guessing game in rock-paper-scissors. But if you look at what I said earlier, MK can play the game of rock-paper-scissors, pick rock, and a quarter of a second after you choose paper switch to scissors. Hope that doesn't just confuse you further >>

You forget that within the buffer of DTilt and FTilt, three of those individual strikes are completely linear. Unless Meta Knight completely anticipates what Marths actions are going to consist of, he risks being caught in the lag of FTilt after it is executed. Marth has more than enough time to punish afterwards, and has the mobility to potentially avoid the buffer.

All we are discussing is capabilities of the character to outdo one another. The difference is you are dwelling this all down to theory of circumstance within a match in Meta Knights favour, likely due to bias. Both have answers, both have options. Meta Knight has the better options, Meta Knight has the advantage, but the amount of advantage he does posses does not influence the end result to a very noticeable degree. It's mostly comes down to who the better player is, both for the Marth and the Meta Knight. This is how I feel about it.

And exactly what disadvantage is there to playing by reaction? Being able to react to any and all options your opponent has ultimately is the biggest advantage you could ever have in a neutral position. To go on the offensive, you have to commit. When an action is committed, you risk being countered. This is why camping and planing are so effective in Brawl. In Melee, there were techniques to neutralize overly defensive options, such as L Cancel. We do not have those in Brawl, and instead are given powerful shields, and out of shield options. Even the safest of approach and aggressor methods are not actually safe.

The aggressor can only achieve the advantage when the player in the defensive position messes up by reacting incorrectly, and is put into a disadvantaged position. That's just how Brawl works.

 

[Ulevo]

Your... options are limited when you're defensive. You're hanging back letting your opponent do whatever he wants while you are hoping he runs into your sword or shield. If you're aggressive you limit your opponent's options because you approach them and corner them. Doesn't sound to me like defensive has that many options, where as aggressive can do whatever he wants.

That's not an opinion either, it's fact.

You have it backwards. Completely.

Corner them? Limit their options? Exactly how do your corner and limit an opponent who can punish your lag out of a shield with almost anything within their move set? I'm not even discussing Perfect Shielding.

The aggressor can't simply do whatever he wants. Once he commits an action on the defending party, that's it. He has to hope the defending player does not react accordingly, which isn't very difficult to do at all.

This is even more disappointing coming from a Marth main, considering Marth has some of the best defensive tools in the game.

 

[Daedatheus]

Corner them? Limit their options? Exactly how do your corner and limit an opponent who can punish your lag out of a shield with almost anything within their move set? I'm not even discussing Perfect Shielding.

I think the main problem with pure defense is that you let the aggressor decide the pace of the match, as well as the zoning. I know that this has been a problem when I try to play overly defensive against opponents who are slower than me and who I am sure I will outsmart. While baiting and punishing mistakes is important (and satisfying ) it can't be your entire gameplan, for the reasons I just stated.

 

[Steel]

Why do you think someone is just going to attack your shield? Aggression isn't just rushing your opponent constantly.

To me it's disappointing that you think the best Marth and other top Marth's are "doing it wrong." I can't tell if you know what the aggressive style is really. You think you can just react to whatever your opponent does and counter it, well that doesn't work because real life isn't super-theory.

 

[Ulevo]

I think the main problem with pure defense is that you let the aggressor decide the pace of the match, as well as the zoning. I know that this has been a problem when I try to play overly defensive against opponents who are slower than me and who I am sure I will outsmart. While baiting and punishing mistakes is important (and satisfying ) it can't be your entire gameplan, for the reasons I just stated.

The aggressor does not decide the pace of the match if the defensive player properly punishes or follow ups after a correct reaction. If I retaliate an action my opponent committed, but go straight back to being defensive, that is me making poor decisions as a player to not capitalize on the mistakes my opponent made.

I'm not claiming you shouldn't be aggressive when an opening presents itself, as that is how you control the pace of the match. But within a neutral setting, it is foolish to attempt to commit to anything without safe moves (which are next to non existent in Brawl) unless you have a projectile.


Anyway, I'm not going to argue this further, as this isn't the purpose of the sticky. If the discussion is to continue, I do not mind being contacted via PM or IM.

 

[∫unk]

ulevo ur dum

that worked like 3 months ago

just watch matches of good marths

take notes

 

[Coda]

Meta Knights ground options do not defeat the perfectly viable options given to Marth.

Meta Knights approach options are Tornado, Shuttle Loop, FTilt, DTilt, FSmash, DSmash and Fair.

Tornado can be beaten by a plethora of Marths attacks. You as a Marth main should be aware of this, so I won't explain further. Shuttle Loop telegraphs itself, and is easily punished after activation. Glide Attack be punished via shield, perfect shield or Standard A.

Other than shield -> raise to face, what other options are there to deal with Tornado... and also besides the pivot grab... which is fairly difficult to time and rely on...

FTilt is out ranged by Marths DTilt. I clearly outlined that in my thread regarding priority comparisons. DTilt is beaten by Fair, since the vertical hit box on DTilt is poor and obviously cannot hit an aerial opponent. DSmash is easily out spaced by DTilt, FTilt, and I believe Fair and Standard A.

Dancing Blade has transcended priority, so anything that does not out range it will lose in a priority war. Fair is beaten by basically everything, and is very easy to punish because of commitment lag.

The hardest tool Meta Knight has for Marth to deal with is FSmash, which most Meta Knights do not even use, although this shouldn't really be accounted for. Let's also not forget that you have your shield.

So no, Meta Knight does not simply out range all of Marths viable options for approach. Also, for the record, the player who is on the defensive will always have the advantage in Brawl, regardless of who the character is, or who the character it is you are facing. Brawls overly defensive style emphasizes this. Why you would assume this puts Marth at a disadvantage is beyond my comprehension.

is it possible if i could get a clarification on who's doing the move and priority...


The last part... i just want clarification... has marth's mainstream metagame (on paper metagame) changed to offensive? because Marth has always been a defensive character...?

 

[feardragon64]

Anyway, I'm not going to argue this further, as this isn't the purpose of the sticky. If the discussion is to continue, I do not mind being contacted via PM or IM.

Fair enough. You're right. This is the wrong place

ulevo ur dum

that worked like 3 months ago

just watch matches of good marths

take notes

Stop...provoking....things
lol

 

[Ulevo]

Other than shield -> raise to face, what other options are there to deal with Tornado... and also besides the pivot grab... which is fairly difficult to time and rely on...


is it possible if i could get a clarification on who's doing the move and priority...


The last part... i just want clarification... has marth's mainstream metagame (on paper metagame) changed to offensive? because Marth has always been a defensive character...?

Counter, Dolphin Slash, Dancing Blade all go through Tornado very easily. FSmash and Shield Breaker do too, but they're not very practical as the Meta Knight is normally too close when Tornado is used in order for those to be effective. Simply holding your shield up works, and punishing the lag. Even if they space the Tornado, you can normally run after them and catch them in the lag when they attempt to retreat with it.

Marths DTilt > Meta Knights FTilt
Marths Fair > Meta Knights DTilt
Marths DTilt, FTilt, Fair, Standard A > Meta Knights DSmash
Marths Dancing Blade < Meta Knights attacks with less range
Marths everything > Meta Knights Fair

That should leave clarification as to what I was mentioning in the paragraph.

As to what the general meta game is for Marth players, I would say it all depends on player style. Each Marth main has their own tastes. If you want a majority answer, I suggest you ask the board.

 

[l3lue2ain]

Lets see I have a few questions lets see Question one. Edge Guarding G & W, pikachu, sonnic, falcos & fox forward b recovery's, metaknight (GOD SO ANOYING ), people with alot of jumps like kirby and wolf.

Next question OMG How do you escape that stupid kirby grab combo. I swear its like guaranteed damage I see it happening to me and alot of other people repeatedly. Its like omg I am at 0 I hope I don't get grabbed OMG pivot grab WTF 40% kicked off the stage let me try to hurry and get back on WTF i just got juggled into the darkness.

This has been happening alot everyone is up+bing out of the dolphin combo. its like .... uhh stop doing that Up+b wtf? I got hit in the middle.

sometimes I have been successful in predicting it and countering them to scare them.

Marth is one of the characters that I feel as though I don't use my tilts maybe some advice to better incorporate them in my game play. Tilts usually are God with any charactor. Its probally why I am getting extremely predictable. I only use two moves the air Fair or Nair. On the ground Dolphin combo or fsmash depending on location I may dsmash. Recently I have been throwing in those Up+B's however I get punished really bad for missing.

I guess thats all that my questions for now. Random development I have been missing alot of spikes. But I play a snake player and I was able to spike him like 95% of the time in doubles and in singles. I suppose snake has to be the easiest person for marth to spike.

 

[VietGeek]

Well you can DS out of the Kirby combo right off the bat after the first fthrow to uair (you DS the uair).

Or like let's say you don't want to risk getting shielded or whatever, you can DI toward him after the uair and try to footstool him. Well, it works with Toon Link but I don't see how it wouldn't for Marth.

 

[feardragon64]

^Don't make the mistake of trying to up+b kirby out of his throw combos. I second kirby and whenever I play a marth that does this I chuckle cause all of my grabs leave you slightly higher than I actually am. Half the time I don't even need to shield. You'll just ds over my short little head.

Haven't heard of the footstool idea though.

But after about 30 or so percent the combo isn't a combo anymore >> If you're still getting grabbed as much as you make it sound, I would say you need to space properly. Kirby's grab game is really important for him. But if you take that away, all he has to try and outspace you with is bair(and fsmash lulz).

 

[Ulevo]

Be very careful about using DS out of the combo though. Many Kirby and Falco players will bait you out of this, and FSmash you in the face, so try not to be too predictable. Try it first, observe the players actions, and then decide if it is a good method you should continue to use. Odds are if they let you whiff a DS the first time, they'll keep doing it.

 

[illinialex24]

Be very careful about using DS out of the combo though. Maybe Kirby and Falco players will bait you out of this, and FSmash you in the face, so try not to be too predictable. Try it first, observe the players actions, and then decide if it is a good method you should continue to use. Odds are if they let you whiff a DS the first time, they'll keep doing it.

Yeah if they dash to you, DS out. If not, be careful.

 

[3xSwords]

Before I even start the **** is a dolphin combo? I'll just assume you are talking about dancing blade

Lets see I have a few questions lets see Question one. Edge Guarding G & W, pikachu, sonnic, falcos & fox forward b recovery's, metaknight (GOD SO ANOYING ), people with alot of jumps like kirby and wolf.

Some characters you don't edge guard like MK, unless you feel risks are worth the rewards. To hit falco or fox out of side B just use a nair, it requires some timing but will almost always be a guaranteed hit. Really it's all timing which you can gain from exp. Once you get good enough you can even fair them out of it or jab them out of it.

Against characters that have invincibility in their recoveries.... you must use hugging to your advantage. Hugging against the likes of G&W, Pikachu or Sonic can lead to instant punishment from a ledge hop.

Wolf does not have a lot of jumps.

Next question OMG How do you escape that stupid kirby grab combo. I swear its like guaranteed damage I see it happening to me and alot of other people repeatedly. Its like omg I am at 0 I hope I don't get grabbed OMG pivot grab WTF 40% kicked off the stage let me try to hurry and get back on WTF i just got juggled into the darkness.

OMG think of DI. Basically just do what Viet said.

This has been happening alot everyone is up+bing out of the dolphin combo. its like .... uhh stop doing that Up+b wtf? I got hit in the middle.

You're not doing DB fast enough or you are not using the regular combo. If you use down variation the finally hit is very DI'able. Also if you just try to use different strikes in each one of the 4 hits they may be able to escape.

Marth is one of the characters that I feel as though I don't use my tilts maybe some advice to better incorporate them in my game play. Tilts usually are God with any charactor. Its probally why I am getting extremely predictable. I only use two moves the air Fair or Nair. On the ground Dolphin combo or fsmash depending on location I may dsmash. Recently I have been throwing in those Up+B's however I get punished really bad for missing.
.

Watch a vid of any decent Marth (there is a thread for this now) and watch how they use their tilts. Here is the standard:
F-tlt: SH approach punisher, use if you predict such an approach as it is horrible option to use against a shield
D-tilt: Poke move, space properly against a shielded opponent and you have a frame trap. Basically you will be able to punish every one of their OoS options.
U-tilt: Can be used while juggling. Is a very good kill move especially in the back arc of the move, not used very often.
Jab: Basically an f-tilt with less range but quicker and is not as punishable.

Honestly I'm not going to spell out all your options that will help you stop being predictable. You know Marth by now, you know his move set, and you know your problem as in which moves you spam. Soooo....... Just think when another move can be used in place of another also the moves you are using most of the time aren't always the best choice to use in a certain situation.

 

[∫unk]

its so easy though lol

falls for the bait everytime

i'll stop

 

[Brinzy]

Ok guys, at a certain %, depending on the character and the move decay, Zelda's dtilt is a "lock." I am sure that this is a true lock for many characters. I am not sure if Marth can be dtilt locked or not. Can he Up B out of Zelda's dtilt lock?

Thanks.

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, for a very brief while, it actually combos him, but it only works like twice. What usually ends up happening is a trip, which leads into something else.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



If you try to play defensive RPS with good MKs, you will lose. You need to go aggressive. It is OKAY to edgeguard MK, and it is okay to attack him.

Yes, it's true MK can beat out all of your approaches, which is why you need mixups. First off, Ulevo has some stuff mixed up. MK can appraoch with Dash attack, grab, ftilt, dtilt, fair, nair if he anticipates a spot dodge, or Shuttle loop. I suppose he could approach with fsmash too, but that's easily shielded or countered. Even though you can't punish it unless you counter, it doesn't really gain him any ground. Dsmash is not a viable approach, lol.

I'm not going to sit here and spell out the whole match-up for you, because this isn't the match-up thread, but basically, you beat MK in the air pretty **** well. You have better mobility, your Fair outranges him, and your Uair outranges him. If you stay aggro, MK will probably end up Dragon Punching you a lot, but Shuttle Loop only does 9 damage, and it diminishes. Get inside, combo, and pressure MK. Defensive options only provide MK with opportunity.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not only does your fair have more range, but it's faster as well.

MK's is frame 6, while Marth's is frame 4.

Marth = Best fair in the game.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Marth fairs the best in brawl. *laughs at the irony of the pun*

 

[Punishment Divine]

After answering a lot of questions in this thread, I finally have one

What's the best way to deal with Pikachu's fair? If I shield, is it logical to Up-B OoS or just, roll away or something.

 

[ZHMT]

After answering a lot of questions in this thread, I finally have one

What's the best way to deal with Pikachu's fair? If I shield, is it logical to Up-B OoS or just, roll away or something.

You can up b oos, why wouldn't you want to? Its free damage. On the other hand you can simply shield grab after the hitbox ends and pummel/throw. Do whichever is logical at the time...if your dolphin slash is really weakened...go for the grab.

 

[3xSwords]

After answering a lot of questions in this thread, I finally have one

What's the best way to deal with Pikachu's fair? If I shield, is it logical to Up-B OoS or just, roll away or something.

Psssh... you think you answered a lot of questions?

Yeah UpB OoS works, or even better just don't even let him get that close to you.

 

[feardragon64]

Psssh... you think you answered a lot of questions?

Yeah UpB OoS works, or even better just don't even let him get that close to you.

We all had our reigns in this thread where we were like every other post answering questions.

But DS OoS works. Another thing you could do is just retreating fair since you outrange it.

 

[3xSwords]

We all had our reigns in this thread where we were like every other post answering questions.

But DS OoS works. Another thing you could do is just retreating fair since you outrange it.

lol that's like my post, worded differently and pointed towards me.

 

[ZHMT]

You both basically used my answer already xP

 

[feardragon64]

Well I was more specific so nya. Mr. "Don't get hit"/"Don't let him get close to you"

lol jkn

 

[l3lue2ain]

Be very careful about using DS out of the combo though. Many Kirby and Falco players will bait you out of this, and FSmash you in the face, so try not to be too predictable. Try it first, observe the players actions, and then decide if it is a good method you should continue to use. Odds are if they let you whiff a DS the first time, they'll keep doing it.

what is ds? lol is that the dancing blade I was butchering call it the dolphine blade. hmm Also when you guys are trying to DI back to the stage do you use your Fair to momentum cancel? Just curious I usually Fair ->Dodge--> di up forward towards the stage.

 

[ZHMT]

what is ds? lol is that the dancing blade I was butchering call it the dolphine blade.

DS = Dolphin Slash, Marths up special.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I once heard D-tilt gives Marth a four-frame advantage on block. Does anyone know where/what the thread was?

 

[ZHMT]

I once heard D-tilt gives Marth a four-frame advantage on block. Does anyone know where/what the thread was?

You heard wrong. Marths untipped dtilt has a 7 frame disadvantage (tipped dtilt is 14 frame disadvantage). However, it is safe because of the distance you are away and factoring human reaction timing, therefore you may have a slight advantage in frames.