Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[l3lue2ain]

It's old news that Power shield *****. And it's nice to know that we are helpful.

Nobody holds anything against you for posting so many questions, but lol imo sometimes you really do sound like a noob, no offense or anything. If you were trying to clear that up, just post a vid and we can see your skill. It's also easier to get a better understanding for what you really need help on. Can you see where I'm leading you right now?

*cough*post vid in critique thread *cough*

Hope you consider it



This is critical for some characters but for Marth not really. I actually think it's impossible for Marth to do anything beyond two jabs in the jab lock without the opponent's getting out. His first jab is way to laggy compared to others that can jab lock.

For Marth you only do jab lock once to force that stand up in place getup animation to get a free hit.

I don't have the proper equipment to post videos. Besides just showing up at a tournament. I really really want to post a vid so you guys can see the type of **** I have to go through on a day to day basis. I know that for sure if its a obvious problem it will stand out to you guys. As well as greatly improve my gameplay. The fact that so many people are going to show up to c4 gets me like excited I guess. Maybe then I shall become a celebrity. ZOMG!! The newb posting all day is pro! ( haha I don't know if it will happen like that ). But I think Marth Ditto's are one of my favorite match ups. simply because I feel its extremly even and if you got hit by a tip that means that you missed your opportunity to tip the person as well.

Random thought.... While I was sleeping I thought of this.... How marth was in melee ( now I before we start the flaming ZOMG play melee it has more skills anyway here me out). I was wondering why it was so hard to play marth now in brawl versus melee and how camping is so viable in brawl. I don't remember anyone ever successfully camping me. I had this realization possibly my skills with marth were more technically than basic. like I feel pretty safe and content jumping off the stage chasing someone because they have much more limited options. Marth was probally more of a Arial marth in brawl and more of a horizontal marth in melee. This fact could be what is weakening my gameplay with marth. Thinking about it one 's spacing could be so perfect in melee because of wavedashing. So maybe brawl is just prediction. But I am curious as still as to what separates players degree of skill beyond spacing. like if two marth players have equal skill in spacing what causes one to be so much better. ruling out the Ultra broken power shielding. technically it should be just he who gets hit last.

 

[3xSwords]

But I am curious as still as to what separates players degree of skill beyond spacing. like if two marth players have equal skill in spacing what causes one to be so much better. ruling out the Ultra broken power shielding. technically it should be just he who gets hit last.

If that's your question then I'll answer for you. You need to understand that spacing is not everything. It's important but if that was all that really mattered then a character like Ike should be owning. What I'm trying to get here is you can beat spacing (which is essentially range) with more than just using a move with better range. These are basically baiting, reading and predicting, reacting and conditioning. To do this you need an incredible mental ability. I personally believe the majority of people play mostly with reaction (like me), however really skilled players are able to actually think during an actual match. Although it sounds really f***in crazy (I still have trouble believing this), it certainly isn't impossible for a human mind. What one really needs is that mental ability without it, you can only go so far.

tl;dr: Pro's are proactive not reactive. Normal people are.

 

[Remzi]

If that's your question then I'll answer for you. You need to understand that spacing is not everything. It's important but if that was all that really mattered then a character like Ike should be owning. What I'm trying to get here is you can beat spacing (which is essentially range) with more than just using a move with better range. These are basically baiting, reading and predicting, reacting and conditioning. To do this you need an incredible mental ability. I personally believe the majority of people play mostly with reaction (like me), however really skilled players are able to actually think during an actual match. Although it sounds really f***in crazy (I still have trouble believing this), it certainly isn't impossible for a human mind. What one really needs is that mental ability without it, you can only go so far.

tl;dr: Pro's are proactive not reactive. Normal people are.

Well said, atm I'm working on taking the time in matches to think a move through rather than just pull something out because I THINK I see an opening. Needless to say, it's quite difficult.

 

[V]

yeah thats probably what i have the hardest time doing is actually thinking rather than just doing. lately ive been watching vids of the best marth players and making mental notes of what they do in certain situations and its been helping quite alot in deciding which moves to do when and when to approach or camp

 

[Daedatheus]

I personally believe the majority of people play mostly with reaction (like me), however really skilled players are able to actually think during an actual match. Although it sounds really f***in crazy (I still have trouble believing this), it certainly isn't impossible for a human mind.

You don't do this? If I really care about winning or my foe is good, I'm thinking about how they reacted to my approaches, whether on not I'm mixing up my defense, and if they might be trying to bait me into doing something, etc.

I find I do less of this in Brawl though, where I am decent at the game, and I think a lot more in Smash64, where I am much much better. I think the more you become familiar with the mechanics and matchups of the game, the more you can think and slow things down in your mind to make better choices.

yeah thats probably what i have the hardest time doing is actually thinking rather than just doing. lately ive been watching vids of the best marth players and making mental notes of what they do in certain situations and its been helping quite alot in deciding which moves to do when and when to approach or camp

I do this regularly and it is a great way to improve your game and learn how a character should be played, and aside experimentation, it shows you what is possible with the character that you may have never tried. Today, rather than making mental notes as I used to, I'm actually writing physical ones in the form of my own guides to characters based on what the best players do in each situation (like out of shield, when being hit, when edgeguarding, when offstage etc.), in winning matches. Because I've actually been putting my analysis into print in nice formatted word documents, and thinking about each bit, it gets engrained into my play a lot faster. It surprisingly helps a TON.

Despite how important thinking during a match is, you NEED to know your options in ADVANCE unless you have the reaction speed of a hummingbird. You can only think of all the macro aspects of a match at a good speed. For example, when someone is pressuring your shield you don't have much time. If you wait and think what to do, you could get shieldbroken, shieldstabbed, grabbed, etc. You have to react immediately and make the right choice of what to do, and this choice comes from 2 places - knowledge of your options having seen many things done out of shield before, and HABIT. If you mix up your options and know what they all are, you will be far from developing bad habits in your reactions.

 

[3xSwords]

You don't do this? If I really care about winning or my foe is good, I'm thinking about how they reacted to my approaches, whether on not I'm mixing up my defense, and if they might be trying to bait me into doing something, etc.
.

lol yeah my mind has not yet been accustomed to actually thinking, since you seemed experienced in such things due to 64 would you say there is anything else that can help you nurture this ability besides playing the game a lot?

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

Hmm.....even after playing marth for a long time, I'm curious. What % do you get your opponent to before you try to kill them? I usually wait till 70-110 depending on where on the stage I am, and I punish with smashes accordingly if I have the chance, but obviously marth is more about his tilts and air attacks than he is smashes. What % do you kill at?

 

[3xSwords]

Hmm.....even after playing marth for a long time, I'm curious. What % do you get your opponent to before you try to kill them? I usually wait till 70-110 depending on where on the stage I am, and I punish with smashes accordingly if I have the chance, but obviously marth is more about his tilts and air attacks than he is smashes. What % do you kill at?

Depends. I only really go for the kill move once they pass 100% so I start killing (going for the kill) around 120-130 most of the time.

 

[Xisin]

Hmm.....even after playing marth for a long time, I'm curious. What % do you get your opponent to before you try to kill them? I usually wait till 70-110 depending on where on the stage I am, and I punish with smashes accordingly if I have the chance, but obviously marth is more about his tilts and air attacks than he is smashes. What % do you kill at?

Depends. I only really go for the kill move once they pass 100% so I start killing (going for the kill) around 120-130 most of the time.

Also depends on what character you play against obviously. Something else too i actually never really try to kill, it just kinda happens Like EL told me once if you try to go for a kill too hard it can very well backfire on you, and that was the truth for me, so now i mostly find myself kiling with tipper nairs or fairs at around the 120 marker like swords said, i rarely try to smash for the kill since welll, they're easy to whiff and get punished on.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

Yeah, it's easy to get punished if you go for the same smash too much. One last thing I'm curious about is Dash to Shield. What I'm talking about is just plain dashing, but then immediately bringing up your shield even while you're dashing. I don't attempt to do this much, but it's a skill I'd like to know how to do. I'm pretty sure you don't have to dash, wait for the animation to finish, then shield because I've seen it done otherwise. For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvvzgyWdedQ

Put it at 1:00, and then watch as a few seconds later kirk instantly gets his shield up as diddy throws the banana. Always been curious to know.

 

[Cloud Cleaver]

I find myself killing a lot with the tipped downsmash, especially when the opponent roll dodges too much.

 

[3xSwords]

Yeah, it's easy to get punished if you go for the same smash too much. One last thing I'm curious about is Dash to Shield. What I'm talking about is just plain dashing, but then immediately bringing up your shield even while you're dashing. I don't attempt to do this much, but it's a skill I'd like to know how to do. I'm pretty sure you don't have to dash, wait for the animation to finish, then shield because I've seen it done otherwise. For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvvzgyWdedQ

Put it at 1:00, and then watch as a few seconds later kirk instantly gets his shield up as diddy throws the banana. Always been curious to know.

Character dependent. Ike is able to quickly do so but Marth can't because his initial dash is too long. It takes a while to put a shield for Marth which is why there is an emphasis on walking. To do so just dash and hold shield and don't tilt the analog stick too much because if you tilt too much then you roll.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

Alright, I'll try it out a bit. I guess I should start looking for extras like this that I've missed that may aid my play. Thanks for that info.

 

[kpeezy]

I've noticed that buffering tilts is a great thing for Marth and I'm trying to work it into my play. I still have some questions.

I understand the basic concept of buffering tilts. but I've seen some really good Marths do very crazy buffering or they're not buffering but doing something different. For instance, at Oh Snap in Oklahoma I was watching RoyR play Dojo. He SHFF'd a Nair to an immediate Utilt. Is there time to buffer an Utilt after FF'ing a Nair or is he performing a tilt after landing, no buffering involved? It was nasty :D It was also very safe and very fast.

 

[SonicX580]

Hi I read almost all of the stickeys here and I think this is my new main also I'am not new to the boards I was in the Sonic boards (still goes there) and with that said can someone test my marth?

 

[3xSwords]

I've noticed that buffering tilts is a great thing for Marth and I'm trying to work it into my play. I still have some questions.

I understand the basic concept of buffering tilts. but I've seen some really good Marths do very crazy buffering or they're not buffering but doing something different. For instance, at Oh Snap in Oklahoma I was watching RoyR play Dojo. He SHFF'd a Nair to an immediate Utilt. Is there time to buffer an Utilt after FF'ing a Nair or is he performing a tilt after landing, no buffering involved? It was nasty :D It was also very safe and very fast.

I guess he's buffering b/c FF nair has landing lag so he buffered the input there. Buffering isn't that special, because in Brawl you buffer pretty much everything. The only time you probably buffer consciously is when you do a SHAD and buffer input before landing.

Hi I read almost all of the stickeys here and I think this is my new main also I'am not new to the boards I was in the Sonic boards (still goes there) and with that said can someone test my marth?

First of welcome to Marth boards. I'm sure you know we are elitist by now and basically we don't like it when people post random stupid, basically "I didn't even think of the answer" questions. So if you ever have one of those moments always come here.

Post in the wifi Marth thread, it should be floating around here somewhere...

 

[SonicX580]

I guess he's buffering b/c FF nair has landing lag so he buffered the input there. Buffering isn't that special, because in Brawl you buffer pretty much everything. The only time you probably buffer consciously is when you do a SHAD and buffer input before landing.



First of welcome to Marth boards. I'm sure you know we are elitist by now and basically we don't like it when people post random stupid, basically "I didn't even think of the answer" questions. So if you ever have one of those moments always come here.

Post in the wifi Marth thread, it should be floating around here somewhere...

Yes I'am well aware of the threads also thanks for the welcome I heard of some good Marth users but I never met them and I'll try to find the Wi-Fi thread.

 

[3xSwords]

Yes I'am well aware of the threads also thanks for the welcome I heard of some good Marth users but I never met them and I'll try to find the Wi-Fi thread.

It's still on the first page you can't miss it. Titled "Wi-fi Marth thread" or something along those lines.

 

[SonicX580]

It's still on the first page you can't miss it. Titled "Wi-fi Marth thread" or something along those lines.

I found it but no one responded to my reply.

 

[Qckpy01]

Why is it that sometimes the tip of a shieldbreaker is like right in the middle of an opponent, but the game registers it as a miss?
Has that happened to anyone before?
It's happened to me a good 10 ten times already and at first I thought maybe I didn't see it right or I messed up my spacing but then the other day I actually got the chance to pause the game at the exact moment, and I was right. My shieldbreaker tip was actually "inside" Ikes chest!!
What gives?

 

[3xSwords]

I found it but no one responded to my reply.

just be patient I'm sure somebody will respond soon

Why is it that sometimes the tip of a shieldbreaker is like right in the middle of an opponent, but the game registers it as a miss?
Has that happened to anyone before?
It's happened to me a good 10 ten times already and at first I thought maybe I didn't see it right or I messed up my spacing but then the other day I actually got the chance to pause the game at the exact moment, and I was right. My shieldbreaker tip was actually "inside" Ikes chest!!
What gives?

Yeah it's the game... Live with it. There was a huge fuss about this early in the release of Brawl especially when everybody realized Marth's f-smash tipper was soooo small. In fact it's so small that even if you see the sword literally go through the opponent it won't register as a tipper. I believe though that this actually had to do with the camera angle in Brawl. If I remember correctly, somebody said the camera in Brawl is slightly tilted so that it gives the illusion that Marth's sword landed when in actuality it didn't. So yeah basically visual illusion screwing with you. Deal with it. Also... are you sure it wasn't that light at the end of SB that made you think you actually went through the opponent's chest?

 

[Qckpy01]

No the actual tip of the blade was in the chest, as in the little triangle.
Yeah that's why I try for non-tip SB now. Mostly I use it for shield spammers anyway, just curious.
Oh well, there are worse glitches..... hehe.

 

[l3lue2ain]

wow dealing with Lucario's **** range that increases with damage WTF? I am getting out ranged at first i could have sworn marth had more range. But I guess the person I usually play against that plays lucario DOES NOT SPACE properly at all. God it was terrible yesterday I was playing I was getting out camped. Out ranged and worst off all the ball hits up if your shield gets chipped. I was like WTF i was blocking.. Terrible match up. I thought marth had the advantage.

 

[Steel]

Are you serious?

You're going by one experience with a Lucario that you obviously have no experience/knowledge in?

GTFO.

 

[feardragon64]

Learn to perfect shield aura balls
Space properly. You outrange him.
What steel said but not in such an insulting way >>

 

[Daedatheus]

You outrange him.

Until his damage goes up then much of his stuff outranges Marth. Am I totally wrong? That's been my experience.

 

[Dannykat]

I didnt know lucarios range increased w/ his damage. Yay new knowledge for noobs like me.

 

[Steel]

Uh, no his range does not increase.

Lucario's fsmash is the only thing that outranges us.

 

[feardragon64]

Until his damage goes up then much of his stuff outranges Marth. Am I totally wrong? That's been my experience.

I didnt know lucarios range increased w/ his damage. Yay new knowledge for noobs like me.

Uh, no his range does not increase.

Lucario's fsmash is the only thing that outranges us.

^this. Damage =/= range. It only increases knockback and damage dealt.

You can see that fsmash coming a mile away too. If you see it coming a mile away just counter it >>....or you know....move out of the way

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, I'm pretty sure Lucario does get minute range bonuses with his power bonuses, but not enough to outrange us.

 

[phi1ny3]

wow dealing with Lucario's **** range that increases with damage WTF? I am getting out ranged at first i could have sworn marth had more range. But I guess the person I usually play against that plays lucario DOES NOT SPACE properly at all. God it was terrible yesterday I was playing I was getting out camped. Out ranged and worst off all the ball hits up if your shield gets chipped. I was like WTF i was blocking.. Terrible match up. I thought marth had the advantage.

lucario fsmash outranges a lot of things, including marth fsmash, but marth has ways of dealing with every thing of Lucarios. counter, wait, or if he sloppily did his spacing, shield then punish. You can also AD or spotdodge, but bad timing will cost you.

AS is not too hard. if he camps, perfect shield walk, SHAD, SH fair them if they are small especially, or just jump.

Also, in my experiences, you don't want to be bad in spacing. If he gets close, he'll have an easier time than he should. tip spacing is important.

 

[feardragon64]

^I would also say the spotdodging against lucario is not highly recommended...
Dark lingering hitboxes ><

And pierce you sure? When I get my wii back I'll test it by putting him at 999 and testing the range for fsmash X_X

 

[kpeezy]

I guess he's buffering b/c FF nair has landing lag so he buffered the input there. Buffering isn't that special, because in Brawl you buffer pretty much everything. The only time you probably buffer consciously is when you do a SHAD and buffer input before landing.

Yes, he was buffering. The timing is slightly hard and working into my game is a little harder. However, it's not as bad as I thought after I spent a few minutes trying it.

I don't remember seeing many buffered tilts (excluding dtilt) from the Marth boards... Is there a reason for that? It's so good. SHFF'd aerials to a buffered tilt has really helped me out a lot in many ways.

Edit: this isn't something you would do unconsciously. While you're FF'ing the Nair but still in the Nair animation, you hold up at that moment (otherwise you tap jump) then you can do the immediate Utilt. I don't know how you would do that unconsciously unless you are much more of a man than I am.

 

[Fatalzyntax]

I read somewhere that foxtroting is faster than plain dashing.

Is that true with Marth?
Normal dashing seems faster to me but I can't be too sure

 

[kpeezy]

I read somewhere that foxtroting is faster than plain dashing.

Is that true with Marth?
Normal dashing seems faster to me but I can't be too sure

Apparently it is. I've stopped doing it though unless I'm chasing someone across stage after hitting them over there.

 

[3xSwords]

Yes, he was buffering. The timing is slightly hard and working into my game is a little harder. However, it's not as bad as I thought after I spent a few minutes trying it.

I don't remember seeing many buffered tilts (excluding dtilt) from the Marth boards... Is there a reason for that? It's so good. SHFF'd aerials to a buffered tilt has really helped me out a lot in many ways.

Edit: this isn't something you would do unconsciously. While you're FF'ing the Nair but still in the Nair animation, you hold up at that moment (otherwise you tap jump) then you can do the immediate Utilt. I don't know how you would do that unconsciously unless you are much more of a man than I am.

I guess I am much more of a man than you because I can do utilt's with tap jump on and still buffer it

 

[Odigo]

How do diminishing returns effect counter?

 

[kpeezy]

I can do it, but I didn't just do it unconsciously. I had to think about what I was doing (only when I'm fast falling it, otherwise it's very easy and mindless).

Edit: I'm not sure you get what I'm saying. Buffering tilts in general is very easy. Buffering tilts during a fast fall and aerial is a lot different. You have a very small window in which to buffer the tilt. I don't think you're taking into account the fast falling.

 

[3xSwords]

How do diminishing returns effect counter?

G&W's f-smash does 18%

After successive counters on G&W's fresh f-smash this is how much damage Marth's counter deals.
21% 18% 16% 14% 11% 10%....

Basically countering many times consecutively makes the counter actually deal less damage than what your opponent's move will deal and the knockback is also decreased. Which is another reason why you don't spam counter.

 

[Odigo]

I understand now.
Thanks for the quick response.