Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Unless the claw grip makes it impossible for your opponent to select MK then no.

Lol good one XD.

 

[feardragon64]

C-Stick your aerials. Using A for them sacrafices your spacing. >> Seems dumb not to imo if you're playing a character who is especially dependent on spacing.

 

[Tari]

C-Stick your aerials. Using A for them sacrafices your spacing. >> Seems dumb not to imo if you're playing a character who is especially dependent on spacing.

Makes sense. Spacing would probably be better than how fast you could move your finger to the A button.

 

[Tophes]

In my opinion, about the C-stick vs A approach, I would say it depends on the situation.

Let's say for example you would want to do a f-air, but rather than doing it short hopped, you would want to do it full hopped to mix your approach as well as maintaining your vertical spacing. I would consider A being the preferred option since your f-air would hit the opponent at the level of what its hitbox would be at short hop, but you would full hop instead.

If one were to try and do this via c-stick, the timing would be more difficult such that the f-air would probably miss your opponent since you're holding down the jump button for a period of time and after that trying to reach for the c-stick.

This is where I was considering the claw method - it allows you do perform these sorts of mixed up attacks while being able to make use of the c-stick and in addition, be able to perform a full-hopped retreating f-air at the height of a short-hopped retreating f-air.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

C-Stick your aerials. Using A for them sacrafices your spacing. >> Seems dumb not to imo if you're playing a character who is especially dependent on spacing.

Not to mention, if you're doing a short hop fast-failling (f/b/d/u)air, you can jump, down down on the joystick and then hit C-stick in the direction of the desired aerial and you will automatically fast fall. No shifting the joystick or anything necessary, leaving a smaller chance of error.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What stages do you want to ban and CP against snake?

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

@discussion about A vs C-stick

Lol can't believe I didn't realize that, about using the C-stick and DIing with the control stick. Well I use the c-stick i mean, but somehow i forgot how it benefited me o.0.

@Tophes
But yeah I agree, some cases A would be better, like if you wanted to mix it up and lets say you were doing a full hop over the opponent, and you wanted to fair ASAP, then A would be better.

 

[Remzi]

What stages do you want to ban and CP against snake?

theres a thread dedicated to CPs and Bans for each character. Should be on the front page.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Found it. I have been looking up stuff for various things like this on a few characters, but the problem is that most boards either don't have the discussion going, or have failed to really bring it up. So I have gotten tired of alwasy searching through the threads, easier to just make a post on it.

Most of the time it comes down to prefrences I guess in the end.

 

[Doomblaze]

Do you guys think its worth it to rediscuss the sonic matchup since he jumped 8 spaces up on the tier list? The last time i played against any decent sonics was like 3-4 months ago, so i dunno if he has any tricks up his sleeve that he can use against us.

I'm hesitant to ask this in the sonic matchup because I dont want to start a flame-war with people threatening to kill me/each other for bumping a thread 4 months old, and I wouldnt have any information to add in the first place.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Yes actually that would be a good idea.

However, I don't think Sonic has changed much, simply because I don't believe there is much to improve in him.

He only rised up because I think many players aren't used to fighting Sonics due to his annoying attacks and such. People just need to work on grabbing or attacking him out of his approaches (like spin or w/e the atk is or dashing towards them).

And simply there's been a flood of Sonic players, so yeah... lol.

But yea I'd like to learn how to fight Sonics more, so ima check that matchup thread...

 

[Tari]

I have a multi-part question. But I'll ask the first part first.

If you grab someone, what should you do?

 

[clowsui]

Tari that's tooo general LOL
give me a sample situation

 

[Tari]

>>;

Well.. I meant it to be general. xD I wanted to know what I should primarily due out of a grab. But I guess I could explain the rest of the questions and the entire thing.

When I grab.. I have a few options
fthrow > fthrow > fthrow > fthrow > etc
fthrow > f-smash
fthrow > fair
fthrow > nair
grab pummel till they ground release > dtilt

the fthrow chain grab works on a few characters so I use it to rack up damage..

fthrow > f-smash well.. I don't use that as often since if I miss the f-smash I'm in lag.

fthrow > fair is one I use a lot. However sometimes its air dodged and then I'm screwed by being grabbed.

fthrow > nair is something I do just to mix it up after getting the opponent to think that I'll fair, then they get hit by a nair.

Basically my question is.. which ones are more reliable and if there's something else I should throw into my options, what are they?

 

[clowsui]

but are you starting from 0? like grabs are way more useful than just the combo setups and stuff
you need to tell me what percentage you're starting at and vs. what type of characters at the very least

 

[Tari]

Hmm.. Somehow I think these questions would be a lot easier if it was in the match-up threads. But here goes.

Character wise.. basically ignore everyone that can be grabbed released; Ness, Lucas, Squirtle, Wario, whoever else. I already have a few plans for them.

Also exclude characters that can be fthrow chain grabbed.

Damage wise.. I'd say maybe anywhere from... after landing one fair and up.

 

[Doomblaze]

Yes actually that would be a good idea.

However, I don't think Sonic has changed much, simply because I don't believe there is much to improve in him.

He only rised up because I think many players aren't used to fighting Sonics due to his annoying attacks and such. People just need to work on grabbing or attacking him out of his approaches (like spin or w/e the atk is or dashing towards them).

And simply there's been a flood of Sonic players, so yeah... lol.

But yea I'd like to learn how to fight Sonics more, so ima check that matchup thread...

Alright, that makes sense
stupid brawl with its low low ceiling =P

Can we grab him out of his spin dash(es)?

@Tari
It really depends on DI, if they know what theyre doing, you cant get anything for sure, you just have to predict what theyre gonna do and bait it. If they have bad DI its really easy to just Fsmash or hyphen smash them for the dmg. If you think about it, they dont have very many options, all they can do is air dodge or attack you, and you can do anything to them, so either condition them (Junk finally has a new lesson out, lol you took your time) or punish their tendencies.

Against someone like snake or DK, its really easy to just Fair them or regrab them because none of their aerials can hit you in the position theyre in, but against the floatier characters its harder because theyre gonna end up further away from you.

F-throw to Fair is very good/popular, Nair is nice too but its harder to sweetspot, and regrab just looks sexy, but it usually doesnt work after true combo % Grab pummel to ground release is really nice, although not very many people use it because its obvious when it happens, if you want to use this, mix it up with pivot DB because theyre going to be rolling behind you to avoid the Dtilt in my experience
Against good players F-throw to Fsmash is a nono cause its not gonna hit them.

 

[Tari]

@Tari
It really depends on DI, if they know what theyre doing, you cant get anything for sure, you just have to predict what theyre gonna do and bait it. If they have bad DI its really easy to just Fsmash or hyphen smash them for the dmg. If you think about it, they dont have very many options, all they can do is air dodge or attack you, and you can do anything to them, so either condition them (Junk finally has a new lesson out, lol you took your time) or punish their tendencies.

Against someone like snake or DK, its really easy to just Fair them or regrab them because none of their aerials can hit you in the position theyre in, but against the floatier characters its harder because theyre gonna end up further away from you.

F-throw to Fair is very good/popular, Nair is nice too but its harder to sweetspot, and regrab just looks sexy, but it usually doesnt work after true combo % Grab pummel to ground release is really nice, although not very many people use it because its obvious when it happens, if you want to use this, mix it up with pivot DB because theyre going to be rolling behind you to avoid the Dtilt in my experience
Against good players F-throw to Fsmash is a nono cause its not gonna hit them.

Is there a list of the floatier characters?

F-throw > Fair, though its really good, I don't exactly want to be predictable so I guess I can mix it up from time to time.

grab pummel to ground release I tend to use when I have the person near the edge so they fall off and have to jump back up. Though I do use it on the ground from time to time so thanks for the advice, I'll try a pivot DB.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Tari your question is entirely based off theory. I can tell you a billion different things you can do out of a grab. I will avoid giving you a WoT, though, and give you a simple answer with big meaning.

Just watch your opponent.

About mid percent, grab your opponent and pick an option. See how they react to that option, and react accordingly for that time and every time after that. Here's an example:

I grab X at about 30%. I have no guaranteed followups on his character. I fthrow and wait. Most people will airdodge out of reaction, but wait anyways just to see. Let's say he does AD. Next time I grab him and Fthrow, I bait the airdodge by walking after him, and I dtilt. The dtilt leads to more followups, etc. Most players aren't intelligent enough to change this up, so I will continue to do this until X catches on.

If I had not watched his reactions and blatantly threw something out there, I might've gotten punished by his foolish instinct by committing to an unsafe attack.

However, by simply watching him I not only got damage from my throw, but additional damage from my dtilt and have most likely put my opponent in a bad position.

The reward system is one-sided here. As to what to do on reaction, that's up to you to decipher, you'll catch on to your best options.

Also, if you KNOW you have a guaranteed followup, why the hell are you hesitating? Don't be afraid you're gonna "miss" the fsmash, because part of being a good player is NOT missing that fsmash. Do I never capitalize on Air Releases to MK because I'm afraid of eating a SL? **** naw i **** that ***** all day with tip fairs.

I guess I ended up giving you a WoT anyways lawl

 

[Marthos]

Okay, so when I sweetspot the edge with Dolphin Slash, occasionally he will appear to grab the edge, but immediately cancel. This sometimes catches me offguard and results in my death (even though it probably shouldn't). Does this happen to anyone else?

 

[marth126]

Okay, so when I sweetspot the edge with Dolphin Slash, occasionally he will appear to grab the edge, but immediately cancel. This sometimes catches me offguard and results in my death (even though it probably shouldn't). Does this happen to anyone else?

yea that happens to me rarely though. You should be able to up b back. make sure u r always aware dont automatically assume he will grab

 

[Punishment Divine]

Okay, so when I sweetspot the edge with Dolphin Slash, occasionally he will appear to grab the edge, but immediately cancel. This sometimes catches me offguard and results in my death (even though it probably shouldn't). Does this happen to anyone else?

Yes, just always be paying attention. At least we're not Wolf :D

 

[Darxmarth23]

Yes, just always be paying attention. At least we're not Wolf :D

Ahh....

Light stepping and scarring.

 

[Sorto]

What are safe, useful kill moves with marth? I know all his smashes and up-b have terrible lag (even though they are often what I use to kill) and if they are predicted you can get punished really badly.
For any answers keep this in mind:
-Don't say I am incorrect about his smash moves: Sheilding Marths downsmash from the front can allow ike (and other characters with slow moves) to get a fsmash of his own. If you perfect sheild it I am pretty sure you can get a Falcon punch off (or are only a few frames short of doing so). Foward smash allows for similarly slow moves. Non-tippered Fsmashes give 32 frames for reaction after sheilding it. Tippered ones give 40. If the opponent Pefect sheilds a tipper then your screwed. Keep in mind 60 frames is a second and slow powerful moves like Donkey Kongs Fsmash take around 25 frames and Ikes fsmash is around 30 frames.
-Fair can kill well but it most likely won't be fresh.
-And if you answer Foward-b, can you explain which combination and how to guarentee a tipper on the last hit. Since I feel smash DI will screw up this finisher.
- I know gimping is great, but often in higher level play the opponent wll be able to recover in a smart way that will make gimping very challenging. Plus I understand gimping as a way of getting off a kill, but I am looking for something to use on characters that are hard or near impossible to gimp as well
- And in general I am hoping for a practical answer, not a situational one.
- True Combos are cool as well.

 

[Shaya]

Nair is your answer for kill move.

Uair is your true combos.

I know it's simple and bland, but you'll see uair really easily how that works;
and when it comes to nair, the nair hits several times, and on the 19th frame it hits infront again, and has an astronomical amount of kill power (a tippered one is only second to fsmash tipper). Learn to time it with Marth's aerial mobility + your opponent's dodging habits.
As its an aerial that auto cancels, you're really only looking at 8ish frames of disadvantage if you fast fall, 20 ish if you don't.

 

[Asimio]

About the grab release combos on MK; I usually do my Grab release>fair by double tapping forward when i see MK going in the air and then glide my finger from the jump button to the A button.

What I want to know is that how do people like Mikehaze do their grab release>dair combo so well? Do you guys jump and quickly press the c-stick down? I tried it several times in a friendly and i'd mostly be too far away.

 

[lolgrec]

ok, so i haven't been on the boards very long and i quickly picked up on phrases, acronyms, and terminology associated to marth and the game, however, my eye caught ahold of something that made me fail hard...what the HELL is a stun jacket? thank you to all who reply screen name is darklight512 if you wanna reach me there quicker

 

[Denzi]

What I want to know is that how do people like Mikehaze do their grab release>dair combo so well? Do you guys jump and quickly press the c-stick down? I tried it several times in a friendly and i'd mostly be too far away.

The easiest way to do it is most likely to keep Tap Jump on and then hit up on the control stick and then down on the C-stick.

ok, so i haven't been on the boards very long and i quickly picked up on phrases, acronyms, and terminology associated to marth and the game, however, my eye caught ahold of something that made me fail hard...what the HELL is a stun jacket? thank you to all who reply screen name is darklight512 if you wanna reach me there quicker

Stun Jacket is what is applied to opponents when you counter a move, and it causes (iirc) increased hitstun and reduced knockback. However, it leaves once your opponent gets hit by the counter. But if you counter a move and the counterattack misses them, the jacket remains until they get hit by another attack, and the increased hitstun allows you to string together attacks that you normally wouldn't be able to link.

(I'm pretty sure on this, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

[lolgrec]

ohhhhhh that makes a LOT more sense so in essence, whiffing a counterattack can sometimes be beneficial?

 

[lolgrec]

and are there any examples that you can give me that would help to show the usefulness of it? thanks a lot for the info btw

 

[Denzi]

and are there any examples that you can give me that would help to show the usefulness of it? thanks a lot for the info btw

I know that in the vs MK thread there was mention of Grab Releasing a Metaknight that had a stun jacket, hitting with the first hit of Dancing Blade, and then spiking with Dair. (Don't jab though, because that would get rid of the jacket.)

Also, try to edit your posts instead of double posting. The mods don't get mad at you that way.

 

[Punishment Divine]

About the grab release combos on MK; I usually do my Grab release>fair by double tapping forward when i see MK going in the air and then glide my finger from the jump button to the A button.

What I want to know is that how do people like Mikehaze do their grab release>dair combo so well? Do you guys jump and quickly press the c-stick down? I tried it several times in a friendly and i'd mostly be too far away.

It's all timing, son.

Training mode that shxt

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

>>;

Well.. I meant it to be general. xD I wanted to know what I should primarily due out of a grab. But I guess I could explain the rest of the questions and the entire thing.

When I grab.. I have a few options
fthrow > fthrow > fthrow > fthrow > etc
fthrow > f-smash
fthrow > fair
fthrow > nair
grab pummel till they ground release > dtilt

the fthrow chain grab works on a few characters so I use it to rack up damage..

fthrow > f-smash well.. I don't use that as often since if I miss the f-smash I'm in lag.

fthrow > fair is one I use a lot. However sometimes its air dodged and then I'm screwed by being grabbed.

fthrow > nair is something I do just to mix it up after getting the opponent to think that I'll fair, then they get hit by a nair.

Basically my question is.. which ones are more reliable and if there's something else I should throw into my options, what are they?

Hmm well about them airdodging the fthrow to fair and you being grabbed:

Use spacing for this part (duh). But to be more in depth: lets say you throw a fair, and they airdodge. instead of just landing right in front of them, you can instead try to hit them again, or fastfall and hit the ground before they do (so you can grab em or uptilt or w/e), or you could even jump up (and away or over the opponent), with either a fair or nair to protect you if he pursues. If you jump over him, he might not be able to adapt quick enough.

Another option you have is grab release the Dolphin Slash ( not always reliable, but usually is safe if you PRACTICE and make sure you can do it RIGHT when they are released, or else you will be punished ). Or even grab release to side b works sometimes (again, watch your opponent and decide if he will punish your side b or not).

If you do a ton of fthrows and think they are catching on, then you can mix it up by doing a dthrow, and they may think you're throwing them in front of you, so they'll DI to the right (if you're facing right), which would be towards you. you can then attack witha side b or fair or nair or even dtilt or utilt or ftilt... tons of options.
If you're on BF, it is also useful to throw them up, so you can pursue in aerial combat. Try to stay below the platforms though so it's harder for them to hit you. Do some nairs to keep em from reaching the ground. Nairs are usually more useful ( since if they roll on the platform, you can DI the second hit of nair towards them and hit them ), but many times uair bair and fair are good.

Bthrow is really only good may be if you're on the edge and are throwing them away, but im not sure if its better than dthrow.

Dthrow can also be used for techchasing characters that fall quickly.

Fthrow to side b works sometimes too.


There's tons of options, just analyze your opponent and decide which things would probably work .

 

[SKy Angel]

Just a quick question, when you spike with marth, I'm wondering do you have to smash down hard on the controller stick in order to smash properly, or lightly smash just a bit with the controller game cube stick, and no I am not talking about the C-stick either.

In case no one understood what I just said, I'm asking how can you smash simple, and gain enough air for marth when you spike someone.

 

[gopobox]

Real noob here but i was just wondering
Who is a good sub character to use?

 

[Marauder]

Just a quick question, when you spike with marth, I'm wondering do you have to smash down hard on the controller stick in order to smash properly, or lightly smash just a bit with the controller game cube stick, and no I am not talking about the C-stick either.

In case no one understood what I just said, I'm asking how can you smash simple, and gain enough air for marth when you spike someone.

Either way works. However, when you smash the control stick down, you'll fast fall. If you lightly tilt it, you won't. For safety, its better to lightly tilt it cuz if you miss, you won't fall to your doom.

Real noob here but i was just wondering
Who is a good sub character to use?

Most people go for Falco.

 

[Tari]

Hmm well about them airdodging the fthrow to fair and you being grabbed:

Use spacing for this part (duh). But to be more in depth: lets say you throw a fair, and they airdodge. instead of just landing right in front of them, you can instead try to hit them again, or fastfall and hit the ground before they do (so you can grab em or uptilt or w/e), or you could even jump up (and away or over the opponent), with either a fair or nair to protect you if he pursues. If you jump over him, he might not be able to adapt quick enough.

Another option you have is grab release the Dolphin Slash ( not always reliable, but usually is safe if you PRACTICE and make sure you can do it RIGHT when they are released, or else you will be punished ). Or even grab release to side b works sometimes (again, watch your opponent and decide if he will punish your side b or not).

If you do a ton of fthrows and think they are catching on, then you can mix it up by doing a dthrow, and they may think you're throwing them in front of you, so they'll DI to the right (if you're facing right), which would be towards you. you can then attack witha side b or fair or nair or even dtilt or utilt or ftilt... tons of options.
If you're on BF, it is also useful to throw them up, so you can pursue in aerial combat. Try to stay below the platforms though so it's harder for them to hit you. Do some nairs to keep em from reaching the ground. Nairs are usually more useful ( since if they roll on the platform, you can DI the second hit of nair towards them and hit them ), but many times uair bair and fair are good.

Bthrow is really only good may be if you're on the edge and are throwing them away, but im not sure if its better than dthrow.

Dthrow can also be used for techchasing characters that fall quickly.

Fthrow to side b works sometimes too.

There's tons of options, just analyze your opponent and decide which things would probably work .

Lol, clearly I need a lot more practice. >_>;

Either way, thank you. I'll try all of that, except maybe the Grab Release > Dolphin Slash.. dunno.. from what I'm visualizing.. there's a high level of risk. Plus, I'd probably fail and get myself owned.

 

[VietGeek]

GR > DS is high-risk medium-high reward but has a lot of leeway compared to buffering tricksies with GR > nair or GR > dair.

It presents high risk on the premise that you fail you'll get *****, but like GR fair or GR dash attack, it is by far one of the easier GR follow-ups, and humanly possible even in high pressure situation should you crack under pressure (tourney).

 

[Shaya]

and humanly possible even in high pressure situation should you crack under pressure (tourney).

Thus seperating the humans from the CHAMPIONS.

Actually finding FLAWS so simple as 'oh **** **** up under pressure and do this' is so so sooooooo good to be aware of. Putting it all aside to do the easier option is for WIMPS <3

 

[SKy Angel]

Either way works. However, when you smash the control stick down, you'll fast fall. If you lightly tilt it, you won't. For safety, its better to lightly tilt it cuz if you miss, you won't fall to your doom.

Thanks, I was wondering about that because the last time I did it, when I held the jump button longer I don't fall to super fast, let's say I just get more air with marth when I jump, and then spike, but either way I guess it's good, if I'm wrong please correct me.

One last thing though, do you fall after the person when you can spike that person?, or is that just asking for trouble? When your also falling to your death?