Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index

[Slaps]

Where is the Link to the Ike IRC Chat?
Or did A_B remove it?

In all honesty, I don't think anyone even goes to that chat anymore.

Yea, that's exactly what I thought just wanted to make sure.

so... wait... you wanted the link to make sure no one goes to that chat? I swear to god you make no sense CK lol <3

 

[comboking]

No, I just wanted to go there and see if there was anyone to chat with.

 

[Guilhe]

Ike just really just get into low tier already. It blows that he goes down to spots and is still right above it. The process seemed really confusing to me though sonic and bowser tied yet sonic ended up 2 above him...

I’m actually happy with the position Sonic and PT managed to achieve. It shows how far you can go with a low tier with some dedication and experimentation. I believe Ike could go higher than them if we start trying new things and reanalyze our matchups with the enthusiasm of the old days when Yagami was still with us. And, of course, ****** with Ike at tournaments with renewed strategies. Now, if you excuse me, I’ll lurk some more… I’ll be back during vacation.

 

[Atria]

I’m actually happy with the position Sonic and PT managed to achieve. It shows how far you can go with a low tier with some dedication and experimentation. I believe Ike could go higher than them if we start trying new things and reanalyze our matchups with the enthusiasm of the old days when Yagami was still with us. And, of course, ****** with Ike at tournaments with renewed strategies. Now, if you excuse me, I’ll lurk some more… I’ll be back during vacation.

I guess this is true to some extent however, it's easier said than done for some characters compared to others unfortunately. Although, most people here seem to be content with Ike's tier position at this current point of time because as of now, it's predicted that in future battles, even more people won't take Ike seriously in battle compared to his last tier placement (He hasn't dropped by much though.) making matches some what easier and more satisfying to win by using Ike.

As with me however, I couldn't really care less about tiers. They are interesting to look at, but I don't really take them that seriously when it comes to my choice of characters or who I'm up against in a fight. I think ANY character can be good if you just know how to use them properly. As long as I can kick people's ***** with who I use, I'll be happy. As of now, my Ike is kicking people's ***** WAY better compared to the other characters I use ATM and that makes me happy.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got more people to destroy with my Ike...

 

[Guilhe]

I agree Atria, it’s easier said than done. But low tier placements means we, Ike players, are faring worse in tournaments as a whole. I want to help to provide our Ike community means to fare better at tournaments using the character they like to play with the most (in our case Ike, of course). That will be reflected directly at the tier list. As an example, I know a lot of people who like to play as Sonic, but before the recent tier list they preferred to refrain from training him for tournaments due to how underestimated he was taken as a character.

With more people playing with our character, more quickly our metagame should evolve. This would be beneficial for all of us. So we should try harder / discuss more this June/July to find means for strengthening Ike’s game.

 

[Atria]

I'm aware of that. It's just basic competitive theory that that the lower the rank a character has, the less serious that person will be when they oppose that character in battle. I'm not saying that this applies to everyone however as most good players tell everyone to not under estimate your opponent just because of what character they use because obviously, the opponent will have the clear advantage if they are good. Some people here prefer things that way which is fine by me. However, you shouldn't get your hopes up just based on what character you use because obviously the person will start playing seriously if they are about to lose so therefore, this effect will only be temporary which isn't too helpful. I've been guilty of this action when I first played against my friend's Ganondorf. He sure showed me... >_> However, there have been people who are decent at this game who didn't take my Ike seriously. I sure showed them. So, I've learned not to under estimate my opponent.

Yeah, I want to help improve the Ike community as well. I've already started some projects dedicated to Ike which should hopefully help out beginners and veteran players of Ike. It's gonna take a while to complete, but hopefully it'll benefit the Ike community in the long run.

 

[Marauder]

Speaking of projects to improve the Ike community, hows that Tutorial coming Ryko?

 

[Rykoshet]

I got to the first part and otherwise got distracted or preoccupied. Birthday coming up this weekend and a guest coming in tomorrow then with genesis, evo, trying to get my license, a new job, and move down to where some girl lives, it's likely not going to be done till prolly late july early august

 

[Marauder]

I got to the first part and otherwise got distracted or preoccupied. Birthday coming up this weekend and a guest coming in tomorrow then with genesis, evo, trying to get my license, a new job, and move down to where some girl lives, it's likely not going to be done till prolly late july early august

So much for smashers not having lives. Its cool man, just don't do a rush job and end up forgeting ****.

 

[Guilhe]

How about we start a new matchup discussion thread and go over the matchups again, this time with ratios and the range system suggested by Yagami? As an example:

Ike vs. Luigi

Ratio range:
From 45 ~ 55 Luigi advantage.
To 65 ~ 35 Ike advantage.

General consensus:
60 ~ 40 Ike advantage.

*Optional* Ike Deliberation Council Ratio: 60 ~ 40

What do you guys think?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I say we make a topic just for discussing the numbers, and work through them from the top down, and try to get a general consensus. Like an average or something like that. Put down both the true average (for example 57.3-42.7) and the rounded average (55-45). Obviously we should do more then just state what we think the number is.

I also think we should only let known Ike mains/users discuss the numbers/count their votes. We don't need a complete noob or someone who uses the other character going "lulz, you guys are noobs, it's XX-XX, not YY-YY". It's our character, our numbers.

 

[WingBr]

Hi everyone!

Sorry to change the current subject, but I have a question (probably a noob question, but hey, I have to know to improve, right? ). Well, I've changed my control setup to a tilt stick and tap jump off, mostly because I missed too much short hops and keep fast falling when I was trying to spike someone with Dair. Now that I spent sometime playing with this setup, it feels very natural to short hop and Dair without fast falling, therefore improving my game a little more (at least I can tell the difference). The thing is, I'm thinking the "right way" (if there is such a thing) to play would be using the C-stick on ALL my aerials, this way I can DI better on every ocasion, but, when I try to play this way, it feels very unnatural and I have to keep remembering to use the c stick to use the aerials. So I want to know if you think using C stick to do all aerials is better than the regular way and I should keep on playing like this until I get used to it or if I should just drop the idea off and keep using the usual imputs to this. Thanks in advance!

 

[Kimchi]

How about we start a new matchup discussion thread and go over the matchups again, this time with ratios and the range system suggested by Yagami? As an example:

Ike vs. Luigi

Ratio range:
From 45 ~ 55 Luigi advantage.
To 65 ~ 35 Ike advantage.

General consensus:
60 ~ 40 Ike advantage.

*Optional* Ike Deliberation Council Ratio: 60 ~ 40

What do you guys think?

I say we make a topic just for discussing the numbers, and work through them from the top down, and try to get a general consensus. Like an average or something like that. Put down both the true average (for example 57.3-42.7) and the rounded average (55-45). Obviously we should do more then just state what we think the number is.

I also think we should only let known Ike mains/users discuss the numbers/count their votes. We don't need a complete noob or someone who uses the other character going "lulz, you guys are noobs, it's XX-XX, not YY-YY". It's our character, our numbers.

Since it seems like Yagami is not coming back for a while, I think I'm going to use the thread I created for the matchups we haven't discussed and convert it to the new matchup discussion thread. I planned on going through the matchups again anyway with the thread I created.

 

[Palpi]

I say we make a topic just for discussing the numbers, and work through them from the top down, and try to get a general consensus. Like an average or something like that. Put down both the true average (for example 57.3-42.7) and the rounded average (55-45). Obviously we should do more then just state what we think the number is.

I also think we should only let known Ike mains/users discuss the numbers/count their votes. We don't need a complete noob or someone who uses the other character going "lulz, you guys are noobs, it's XX-XX, not YY-YY". It's our character, our numbers.

Making a match-up ratio isn't just for your character it is for both characters. Just because it is the Ike boards and the a thread on the Ike boards, doesn't mean we are right since it takes 2 to make a match up.

 

[theeboredone]

I can show you the game. Shining shimmering, splendid. Tell me nub cake since when did you last win using Ike? I can open your eyes, take you wonder by wonder. Pivot grabs or down throws, on a game cube controller. A whole new game! A new fantastic point of view! No one to tell us no. Or that tiers are for whores! Or say that we're only dreaming!

 

[metroid1117]

Hi everyone!

Sorry to change the current subject, but I have a question (probably a noob question, but hey, I have to know to improve, right? ). Well, I've changed my control setup to a tilt stick and tap jump off, mostly because I missed too much short hops and keep fast falling when I was trying to spike someone with Dair. Now that I spent sometime playing with this setup, it feels very natural to short hop and Dair without fast falling, therefore improving my game a little more (at least I can tell the difference). The thing is, I'm thinking the "right way" (if there is such a thing) to play would be using the C-stick on ALL my aerials, this way I can DI better on every ocasion, but, when I try to play this way, it feels very unnatural and I have to keep remembering to use the c stick to use the aerials. So I want to know if you think using C stick to do all aerials is better than the regular way and I should keep on playing like this until I get used to it or if I should just drop the idea off and keep using the usual imputs to this. Thanks in advance!

Just keep practicing C-sticking your aerials; it's a hassle to learn at first, but it REALLY comes in handy when it comes to more precise spacing. Practice retreating FAirs/BAirs first, then short-hopped UAirs and DAirs while drifting forward or backward. Once you have that down, practice C-stick'd NAirs in place before starting to drift with the control stick.

 

[Guilhe]

I think it won't be enough. I’m proposing making a new matchup discussion also to see how the matchups have changed ever since the last time we have gone through them. Numbers are important too and must be revised; no way Marth has the same advantage over us as we have over Luigi as stated in this chart.

 

[Rykoshet]

Just keep practicing C-sticking your aerials; it's a hassle to learn at first, but it REALLY comes in handy when it comes to more precise spacing. Practice retreating FAirs/BAirs first, then short-hopped UAirs and DAirs while drifting forward or backward. Once you have that down, practice C-stick'd NAirs in place before starting to drift with the control stick.

Tbh I find manually bairing once you get used to not being heavyhanded on the controller is far more reliable than ever c sticking the bair.

 

[Kimchi]

I think it won't be enough. I’m proposing making a new matchup discussion also to see how the matchups have changed ever since the last time we have gone through them. Numbers are important too and must be revised; no way Marth has the same advantage over us as we have over Luigi as stated in this chart.

That's exactly what I'm proposing with the thread I already created as soon as we get past the last matchup.

 

[Guilhe]

It seems to me that discussion has already died and the Samus mainers have already left. It’s a shame but, please, let’s move on. How about we start on the Marth or Pit matchup? Could you update the stage discussion thread as well?

 

[Kimchi]

Technically, we still have to do Ike.

 

[_Sync_]

Sorry to digress from the topic, but I have a question regarding platforms. I understand that Ike is capable of abusing platforms when beneath them, but there are times when I am tossed up above them and land directly ontop of them. At this point, I am then usually juggled from down below. What would be the best way to recover to the main platform, or the best way manuver around them?

 

[Ussi]

Sorry to digress from the topic, but I have a question regarding platforms. I understand that Ike is capable of abusing platforms when beneath them, but there are times when I am tossed up above them and land directly ontop of them. At this point, I am then usually juggled from down below. What would be the best way to recover to the main platform, or the best way manuver around them?

be gutsy and challenge them with eruption. Or try a dair if they are a tall char.

 

[Guilhe]

I recomend you to go around platforms _Sync_.

Technically, we still have to do Ike.

Do we? All right, ready when you are.

 

[Ussi]

Ike vs Ike

Ike does the best job at punishing himself for being laggy and having the hardest hitting moves to punish lag.

8:40-8:43 is the best example of what should be seen in an even Ike match.

 

[Guilhe]

Advantage for Ike then! He also does one heck of a good job gimping himself, long and disjointed hitboxes and Dtilt for punishing but the closest Aether at the ledge.

There's Something I would like to add to our Peonicis reports:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236166

I know it is not directly related to Ike but, as Zamus, C. Falcon now also has a footstool combo on R.O.B.. I think footstool combos are something interesting for us to experiment as well. Maybe Jab -> Footstool -> Bair?

 

[Ussi]

Perhaps we should try short hopping footstools.

 

[san.]

Ike vs Ike

Ike does the best job at punishing himself for being laggy and having the hardest hitting moves to punish lag.

8:40-8:43 is the best example of what should be seen in an even Ike match.

be gutsy and challenge them with eruption. Or try a dair if they are a tall char.

Ussi, stop messing around -_-

When I'm above someone on a platform, I can either just run away or space aerials. For spacing aerials, I find retreating nair (with your back to the opponent) works the best, because the lingering hitbox behind you is perfect in preventing most good approaches. for running away, you can either just jump away (lol) or run off the platform and QD. Dair and eruption are what NOT to do.


Concerning Ike dittos: ground approaches remain the safest bet in this matchup, although most of the game would be spacing aerials. Ike can't afford to let the other one get inside, and vise versa, yet they want to find an opening in the opponent so they can get a way inside. Usually, this will be done by a dash shield against an aerial poorly spaced. shielding out of jab is essential, and learning tendencies of ikes to get into the range of your fair and out of his is also essential. I also had success with angled up ftilt, but I didn't use that in dittos for a while, so...

Really, Ike will get most of his kills through gimps. one ftilt or bair and you're already offstage. Ike can gimp each other really well. It's easiest to either fair or bair the opponent's aether. Since the opponent has a somewhat limited control over his aether, I find it easer to hit with bair so I can be prepared to hit no matter which way the Ike tries to position his aether for recovery. Fair is a lot easier on less skilled opponents, however.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Advantage for Ike then! He also does one heck of a good job gimping himself, long and disjointed hitboxes and Dtilt for punishing but the closest Aether at the ledge.

There's Something I would like to add to our Peonicis reports:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236166

I know it is not directly related to Ike but, as Zamus, C. Falcon now also has a footstool combo on R.O.B.. I think footstool combos are something interesting for us to experiment as well. Maybe Jab -> Footstool -> Bair?

I don't think this is necessary for our Phoenicis report. I don't think we'd have any footstool combos that would work. Jab would need to be cancelled, and that takes a few frames too many. And I'm pretty sure the only aerial that would have a chance at setting it up would be Nair.. and I don't think it would really put him in the right place. Not to mention.. it may take too long as well. I'm pretty convinced we have no hope in finding something like that.

 

[Kimchi]

I was thinking something like this. Nair -> Footstool -> Nair -> Footstool -> Jab -> Fsmash, Usmash, or Dsmash. I pretty much agree with what Brett said though. I doubt footstool will work to our favor for combos. I'll be glad to test it out though. Guilhe and san, if you don't mind, I'm going to put what both of you said into the Temporary matchup thread. I'll submit a write-up of the Samus matchup tomorrow as well as the Mario matchup (finally) and tell me if you guys agree to it. Then we can finally move on to Ike :/.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Grab release foot stool nair works on wario.... actually i think regular footstool nair works on wario and maybe dair if he does that funky one where he bobbles.

I should update this shouldn't I...

 

[Guilhe]

One more thing to add to the Peonicis reports, or not:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231071
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206219

I don’t know if anyone checked the combo C. Falcon has on R.O.B. but it’s so awesome it ends with a reversable Falcon Punch. That’s just how vulnerable the tumble animation lets you. While still searching in other characters boards for ways to improve our metagame, I’ve read that R&D thread they have in the Bowser boards (first link above). It seems that if Bowser knocks a shielding opponent through the side of the platform with Usmash, he gets a guaranteed Fsmash (besides other, less powerful moves) opportunity for punishing his opponent. Now, this might be noobish from my part and not evolve Ike's metagame at all but, we don’t have a thread or study on how to abuse and combo using platforms.

The Bowser frame data (second link above) indicates that Bowser can finish both the Usmash and turn the Fsmash hitbox active faster than our counterparts, so a guaranteed Fsmash for Ike seems improbable. But our Uair is faster and can knock opponents over if they aren't right in the middle of the platform, and an Ftilt angled down also would be enough at most cases. Anyway, that’s something interesting thing to test our write about.

 

[san.]

I do not have too much knowledge of when/the best way for someone can escape or not after knocking off shields on platforms, but I still attempt to do so to get jabs afterwards.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It's jumping san and I do remember knocking people off with Usmash to land an Ftilt. Fsmash has more shield stun too but idk what you would want to land besides a ftilt... I guess you could maybe push them off if they are further from the edge.

Actually if your Fsmash is shielded when frigate changes the shield stun doesn't allow them to move till they end up under the stage. For a lot of characters this is deadly.

 

[san.]

Yeah, I'm just not sure of the consistency. I upsmash and other stuff to people all the time off platforms, not sure of any "guarantees" where they fall or just jump away =(

 

[Guilhe]

Sigh… I’ve tested the jab and Nair setup for footstool and neither have worked even on R.O.B.. Still, I won’t give up on it yet! We might not have setups, but we still can use it as an OoS response for laggy moves. Must see if there’s any follow-up worthy out of a grounded footstool.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

We don't have a move with locking properties. We won't have a footstool combo. Best we could hope for is Dair on Grounded opponent -> Footstool -> Dair on the way back down -> Footstool, etc. And I doubt that would work long if it works at all, Dair is too strong.

 

[comboking]

Are you testing these by jumping on their heads when they are standing on the ground or when they are up in the air?
Because, That makes a big difference. Plus it is harder to jump off of them when they are on the ground.

Oh and I forgot it also depends on when you footstool them (Their height and your height)

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Guilhe]

We don't have a move with locking properties. We won't have a footstool combo. Best we could hope for is Dair on Grounded opponent -> Footstool -> Dair on the way back down -> Footstool, etc. And I doubt that would work long if it works at all, Dair is too strong.

Maybe with FF Nair, using Dair for finishing?

Are you testing these by jumping on their heads when they are standing on the ground or when they are up in the air?
Because, That makes a big difference. Plus it is harder to jump off of them when they are on the ground.

Oh and I forgot it also depends on when you footstool them (Their height and your height)

Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, it does make a difference if we are jumping on their heads when they’re on the air from when they’re on the ground. For now let's look for follow-ups when they are on the ground.

 

[Teh Brettster]

I really wish the TO here posted results. I got top 8 at a biweekly today. Bored wasn't there... he would have gotten top 8 as well.

And not that it's a tourney or anything.. but I was proud of myself at the smashfest I went to last night... not during most of the fest, but when I took 8 stocks in crews. No recording there either. Anything I do right is always passed up. Gr.

BY the way. This ought to help out in our ditto match-up conversation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lon1lvfoAk&feature=channel_page
LOLZ. It's a Sonic main who has played me a lot in the past with his friend who's picking up the game and trying to find a main. I wonder if this is what it looks like for anyone watching a ditto of their main played out by people who don't play that character.