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Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index

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san.

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I hope so, too, metroid =).

I didn't get ***** by a marth in a long time. I mean for gosh sakes, I beat him in a match on frigate with jigglypuff! (although barely, kinda didn't care so I chose her) There's something wrong with my play that isn't compatible in the marth matchup that I probably need to fix.
 

Teh Brettster

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Oh, yeah, I got to play 3 DDDs in the teams bracket-- forgot to tell you that part. In all, there were 5 guys who played D3 in that tourney. TOO MANY.
(Damien water-spiked Jingo with D3's upB. If we weren't losing, I'd have loled.)

I only play one Marth, really, and that's my friend Khaoz... he's trying to bring him up as a secondary. I actually kind of like the match-up, but I'm not sure how I'd fare against someone who seriously mains Marth.

Okay. Kirby. What makes him such a tough match for us? I know he's short and floaty, so it's tough to jab much/ use Bair near the ground. But... what else makes him so awful?
 

Kimchi

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Kirby's a tough matchup for everybody except probably Metaknight. His Fsmash hurts. Seems like it never gets stale. His Dash attack is an annoyance because you have to shield every single hit. His Bair's an excellent approach. His tilts are extremely useful. His hammer is a great KO tool, he has several good grab follow ups, he can juggle with his Bair and Uair, and what do you know, his Final Cutter has similar properties with Aether. Oh and he can swallow us and spit us out under the stage. What a fun and loving character Kirby is. Constantly having to space Fairs or use retreating Fairs is tedious.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Marth is one of Ike's harder matchups and I find the matchup pretty tedious if you ask me. Spacing, using your tilts, and more of your grab game is the key.
Marth was the first character I ever beat in a tournament set. >_> I find him far from one of Ike's harder matchups. The key really is to space your fairs perfectly. If you do that, he can't touch you until you run out of stage. Even his counter will miss if he attempts that. And avoid platforms: he can use them better then you can. That means you should strike BF first, and aim to get FD if possible.

Besides spacing with fair, get right below him if possible. It's a massive weakspot for him. His dair is terrible, and thats the only thing that can hit underneath him. Jab -> Grab -> Dthrow should set you up for some nice Uair juggling, as he also has the second worse AD in the game.

His Dancing Blade can be annoying, and he will probably use it almost everytime you leave an opening at low %s. It really helps if you have watched some of the Marth's matches before so you know what combo combination he favors, but if you haven't, angle your shield forwards and down to avoid getting shield poked by the last blow angled downwards. You should be able to either jab or grab after doing this.

Stagewise, Marth doesn't have a strong CP stage against Ike. He simply has too manly similarities. BF is probably his best bet, and it's not terrible for Ike against Marth. But you will defiantly feel that Marth does better on that stage. I'd honestly say strike it against him. If Marth doesn't strike PS, you'll slaughter him. If he does strike it.......it's what you feel will do best against his playing style.
 

Palpi

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It is hard to get a good grab game against a decent marth. His fair/dtilt ftilt keep you out of grab range, his grab range and is longer and his first jab has IASA frames to get you out of grab range and possibly lead into a dtilt.

A marth should never approach ike in this match up. If someone understand the Ike match up, it becames a lot easier. He will try to shield one of your attack, grab you then punish you. If he can bait you into missing a fair or shield a fair, then you can and will be punished. Ike is also tall so more "Combos" work against him. Against a competant player, marth can be fairly difficult.
 

Kimchi

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Marth was the first character I ever beat in a tournament set. >_> I find him far from one of Ike's harder matchups. The key really is to space your fairs perfectly. If you do that, he can't touch you until you run out of stage. Even his counter will miss if he attempts that. And avoid platforms: he can use them better then you can. That means you should strike BF first, and aim to get FD if possible.

Besides spacing with fair, get right below him if possible. It's a massive weakspot for him. His dair is terrible, and thats the only thing that can hit underneath him. Jab -> Grab -> Dthrow should set you up for some nice Uair juggling, as he also has the second worse AD in the game.

His Dancing Blade can be annoying, and he will probably use it almost everytime you leave an opening at low %s. It really helps if you have watched some of the Marth's matches before so you know what combo combination he favors, but if you haven't, angle your shield forwards and down to avoid getting shield poked by the last blow angled downwards. You should be able to either jab or grab after doing this.

Stagewise, Marth doesn't have a strong CP stage against Ike. He simply has too manly similarities. BF is probably his best bet, and it's not terrible for Ike against Marth. But you will defiantly feel that Marth does better on that stage. I'd honestly say strike it against him. If Marth doesn't strike PS, you'll slaughter him. If he does strike it.......it's what you feel will do best against his playing style.
Have you ever played a Marth like Pierce7D? If you use a retreating Fair, Marth can rush in with his incredible speed and use Dancing Blade. He can Dolphin Slash when you try to grab him out of Jab. Most of his tilts are great for keeping Ike away. I'm sure you know this already, but he can gimp Ike pretty **** hard and I'm not talking about Counter. Spacing Fair can only go so far against a Marth with a great Ftilt, and OOS Fair.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Pierce7D level? Obviously not, as there only a small handful that good. Probably the best or second best one in my area? Yes. You should be able to get shield up in time if he rushes in with DB after fair. Fair in this match isn't for hitting, it's for baiting Marth into doing something you can punish. Yes he can DS out of your jab, but with jab -> grab he has one frame to do so. He can't nail it every time.
 

Palpi

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Then he will grab you and use a fthrow or dthrow to punish you. Marth is just a character that has more options than ike. It is like metaknight in a sense haha. No matter where you DI his dthrow there is always 1 move that can and will hit you. (Mk)

The only marth I have played in tournaments was Eazy. At the time I was really bad, but nonetheless it was difficult.
 

Slaps

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Nice job representing Ike at tournies, Brett, Bored, and san. I only hope that I can go to some tournies in the summer.
i woulda gone if it werent for Ruddy screwing me out of a ride!... get this, i ask him the night before if its ok for his mom to drive me to the tourney, he says yes, and then i text him yesterday 2hrs before the tourney and he tells me he never asked his mom and that he can't take me... SO if he would have told me the night before i could have possibly called Brett and or Damien to tell them to leave early to pick me up and I would have been fine but no! Ruddys gotta be a ****ing dumb***
 

theeboredone

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i woulda gone if it werent for Ruddy screwing me out of a ride!... get this, i ask him the night before if its ok for his mom to drive me to the tourney, he says yes, and then i text him yesterday 2hrs before the tourney and he tells me he never asked his mom and that he can't take me... SO if he would have told me the night before i could have possibly called Brett and or Damien to tell them to leave early to pick me up and I would have been fine but no! Ruddys gotta be a ****ing dumb***
hmm...he is a ****ing dumb****, yet your signature states "Why Ruddy is amazing". Seems like you two have an interesting relationship.

As far as this Marth match up//approaching the cross dresser goes, I think a sound strategy is to turtle like you have never turtled before. Someone above stated that a Marth will make you approach him, but as you know, Ike has very limited options. Sure you can use the empty jumps to jab, or jumping behind him to turn around jab, but that is meant for an aggressive style. In any case, if you just sit around and use baiting (That doesn't necessarily mean spacing the F-air), and make the Marth lose his patience, you can have him crack some openings. Most likely he will approach with F-air, grab, or dancling blade, all which can be pwned by a simple roll or short hop air dodge. After that, punish.

Also, keep in mind that when playing Marth, it's all about momentum for you. If you knock him into the air, be ready to take the fight to him, because that's the last thing you want Marth to do, regaining composure and landing himself on the ground safely.
 

Palpi

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Would using dthrow to get marth into the air be beneficial? Marth's worst position is above you and you get to bait and punish air dodges very easily.

@empy jumps and jabbing. Marth grab range is good enough to shield grab if you make the slightest mistake (aka landing...) and a good marth player will keep you in tipper range. The marth player has to mess up spacing for you to get an easy hit. This happens fairly often because obviously you will hit him a lot.
 

Chis

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Two questions.

What's the use of RAR Nairs?

How do you do a run off dair without fast falling?
 

Marauder

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Two questions.

What's the use of RAR Nairs?
Mixups, son. If you keep doing the same thing everytime, obviously your opponent will catch on (hopefully, at least). Mixing in Bair, Nair, Turnaround jabs, AD will keep you opponent guessing everytime you RAR.

How do you do a run off dair without fast falling?
This was discussed a few pages back (instigated by me lol). You can either set your C-Stick to Attacks or you can tilt the analog stick between down and forward (assuming you're not facing the centre of the stage) and then hit down on the C-Stick... I think lol
 

theeboredone

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Just for future reference, I think the topic title should have the word "Q&A" somewhere, because a few people recently have been asking where that thread is.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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Have you ever played a Marth like Pierce7D? If you use a retreating Fair, Marth can rush in with his incredible speed and use Dancing Blade. He can Dolphin Slash when you try to grab him out of Jab. Most of his tilts are great for keeping Ike away. I'm sure you know this already, but he can gimp Ike pretty **** hard and I'm not talking about Counter. Spacing Fair can only go so far against a Marth with a great Ftilt, and OOS Fair.
I've played broly and a lot of marth mains who are probably at the level of pierce(never played him so idk). Broly actually beat royr in a tournament this weekend. I still have to agree with niddo though its mainly about spacing and knocking him around in the air. Jab is close to useless in this match up except for getting him away from you and hitting OoS if your grab doesn't reach.

Getting marth off stage is awesome as well because you can actually trade hits Fsmash with dolphin slash even if he sweet spots. Of course the timing is a ***** and i've only done it once. This actually makes Fsmash a great edge guard tool in this match up because you can hit him if he sweet spots the ledge or if he just jumps back on since his AD is so bad. Counter is a joke as if you see him jump towards you should be baiting the AD and have enough time to say hey i can charge my 1HKO a bit more.


Also i got 4th at an MK banned tourney in Albuquerque if anyone cares. I had an auto loss because i had to play error13 in losers semis =(.

edit: o sorry bored i'll add it on there.
 

Chis

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Mixups, son. If you keep doing the same thing everytime, obviously your opponent will catch on (hopefully, at least). Mixing in Bair, Nair, Turnaround jabs, AD will keep you opponent guessing everytime you RAR.



This was discussed a few pages back (instigated by me lol). You can either set your C-Stick to Attacks or you can tilt the analog stick between down and forward (assuming you're not facing the centre of the stage) and then hit down on the C-Stick... I think lol
Thanks, that helped a lot.
 

doom dragon 105

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Hey guys long time no see xD

I need quick advice and I don't wanna search through a million of the same topics

Who the best partner for Ike

and who is the better partner

Lucario or Snake?
 

doom dragon 105

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xD thanks

how about olimar and link.

I'm naming characters that some possible partners for a tourney may use so bear with me
 

san.

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Anyone who can rack up damage fast and can give reliable, safe, and easy setups for Ike's kill moves and smashes are good with Ike. A character who works well with getting gimps offstage and can camp/play defensive well could also work (like MK)

DK is a pretty good partner to have. DK's ground range+Ike's aerial range helps to cover the field quite well. DK+Ike also have similar good stages, and DK cargo down throw could lead to an Fsmash for Ike or Ike's dtilt offstage. DK also almost kills as easily as Ike does.

Grab releases on characters are all right.. the most useful one being yoshi of course, but it's hard to work together with each other a lot of the time IMO.
 

Teh Brettster

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Anyone who can rack up damage fast and can give reliable, safe, and easy setups for Ike's kill moves and smashes are good with Ike. A character who works well with getting gimps offstage and can camp/play defensive well could also work (like MK)

DK is a pretty good partner to have. DK's ground range+Ike's aerial range helps to cover the field quite well. DK+Ike also have similar good stages, and DK cargo down throw could lead to an Fsmash for Ike or Ike's dtilt offstage. DK also almost kills as easily as Ike does.

Grab releases on characters are all right.. the most useful one being yoshi of course, but it's hard to work together with each other a lot of the time IMO.
It actually is a fun team to have. I played with a DK over the weekend. Dtilt lock to fully charged eruption was the best part about it. I don't even care about all that other stuff that makes sense. (Also, DK and Ike on Battlefield was a nice little bit of ****.)
 

san.

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Guys.. What makes Japes SOO bad for Ike? I don't really understand. Even if Ike falls into the middle left of the water, he can still recover. I don't really get it... Is it because Ike's a vertical killer? he has fair, ftilt, and can pressure the air with aether and full hopped fair, too.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Because he has a VERY small window to time aether correctly.

And it's easy to knock him into the water. And the ceiling is very high which makes KOing harder for him. And it just plain old sucks against projectile users.
 

Teh Brettster

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Yep. And if you get in the water on the left side of the stage at all, GG. Ike likes still water, not rapids. He'd rather chill in a hot tub. It's not that hard to recover after landing in the water on the right side, but it's still an annoyance. And yeah, not any vertical kills. It sucks for me, and I don't think I even get an overload of vertical kills normally. Ike just has much better options out there, and not too many worse options, if you ask me.
 

theeboredone

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It's not the fact that Japes is not bad...it's who you play which makes it a horrible experience. Falco and Pit being the primaries in being really annoying -_-
 

san.

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The water you shouldn't worry about. it's fairly easy to recover on the left side, too. (the left "space," not the Far left though.. well almost everyone dies by then anyways if they fall in that far) as long as you hold right... right when you reach the water. You can jump right after you hear the sound effect of Ike taking a breath of air. it's best to full hop out of the water, then hop again, go as low as possible, then aether.

Just saying because if the water isn't that much of a worry, he wouldn't have to worry about getting gimped all too much, especially if you remain near the center and camp with full hop fairs or platform pressure with your huge range. And the ceiling is so high, Ike can also survive well, and Ike still has really good horizontal kills, too, + aether/fair camping and ledge camping. Even if Aether misses, Ike grabs the ledge and now he can up air or aether underneath the ledge or QD to the other side or do whatever he wants to make the other person move.

If ike isn't afraid of the water, he can attack more vigorously and use his long range and pushback to pressure shields, knock them off of platforms, etc. He can even fall in the water on purpose on the right side to escape nasty attacks.

I'm not trying to say it's one of Ike's better stages, just that I don't think it's Ike's worst against a majority of the cast, but maybe just a few who are already good at the stage like falco or DK. I think some Ike users exaggerate on how bad japes is for Ike.
 

theeboredone

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The water you shouldn't worry about. it's fairly easy to recover on the left side, too. (the left "space," not the Far left though.. well almost everyone dies by then anyways if they fall in that far) as long as you hold right... right when you reach the water. You can jump right after you hear the sound effect of Ike taking a breath of air. it's best to full hop out of the water, then hop again, go as low as possible, then aether.

Just saying because if the water isn't that much of a worry, he wouldn't have to worry about getting gimped all too much, especially if you remain near the center and camp with full hop fairs or platform pressure with your huge range. And the ceiling is so high, Ike can also survive well, and Ike still has really good horizontal kills, too, + aether/fair camping and ledge camping. Even if Aether misses, Ike grabs the ledge and now he can up air or aether underneath the ledge or QD to the other side or do whatever he wants to make the other person move.

If ike isn't afraid of the water, he can attack more vigorously and use his long range and pushback to pressure shields, knock them off of platforms, etc. He can even fall in the water on purpose on the right side to escape nasty attacks.

I'm not trying to say it's one of Ike's better stages, just that I don't think it's Ike's worst against a majority of the cast, but maybe just a few who are already good at the stage like falco or DK. I think some Ike users exaggerate on how bad japes is for Ike.
Well the reason it is exaggerated as a bad stage is because it generally is a Falco, DK, or some other character that is good at the stage takes you there. I don't mind playing other characters there, in fact, I think it can prove advantageous for Ike. But it is a ***** and half to deal with Mario, Falco and etc.
 

Slaps

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guys i had an idea the other day that actually kinda worked... it has to do with bored's idea as Bair as an approach just differently.... im not sure about smaller characters but at low %s larger characters you can chain short hop Bairs all the way across the stage as long as you time it right so you don't accidentally f-tilt... you can just hold the direction and jump before ike turns around and i think it will work on most characters... but i dont know... im not good at it, it was like a one time thing for me to get good timing
 

Nysyarc

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That sounds like it might work, but like you said, not in all cases and only on larger characters. With DI, a player could easily escape that combo. Not only that, I prefer to save my Bair for a finishing move instead of use it for damage racking and combos at low %.
 

Teh Brettster

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...as long as you hold right... right when you reach the water.
What, like.. pretend to SDI on impact with the water? I don't recall hearing that before.

I can see how Ike could have some things going for him on that stage, but I wouldn't say I have had consistently good experiences there. It probably is what Bored said about who takes to you Japes rather than the fact that you're being taken to Japes. It could be just one of those places I'm not extremely fond of. Like Yoshi's Island (Brawl). No matter who I am, there is just an intrinsic displeasure the stage seems to give me.
 

san.

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I mean.. it's not like Ike can get gimped offstage here except the faar left part I guess =p but that won't really happen.. you'll more likely get killed off the side, and besides, Ike can QD underneath the platforms anyways. It seems Ike can live pretty long too. I can picture Ike being pretty decent here. The only thing that's different is that there are characters who are GREAT here, however, but that shouldn't really affect how Ike himself does there, especially since some characters do GREAT on many different legal stages.

Also, I read on brawl tactical discussion that Ike is one of the better characters to survive Vertical attacks with (S)DI, and Ike is capable of dishing out the KOs, too.
 

Slaps

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I can't! parents don't let me go to out of town events... i could only go to WHOBO because i convinced my parents it was that big of an event that i HAD to go... at least until my parents trust Ruddy's dad more with me, once that happens i can go to almost anything
 
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