Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index

[Arturito_Burrito]

Ally has beat M2k in MM's before. M2K wouldn't lose a match because he sand bagged, maybe a round or a stock, but not the grand finals.

after he won whobo he was handing out 20$ in the hall out side to people who said "hey m2k remember me i cheered for you. "

After i saw him JV 2 stock ally and almost 3 stock actually,(the only reason he didn't was because he took his time after he had such a huge lead) I'm pretty spectacle about him getting 2 stocked it has only happened when he is sand bagging so far.

The tournament actually had 3 mks in the top 10 2 in the top 5 and 1 in the top 3. It was a very upset filled tournament so idk what was up. Of course the anti ban community said whobo only ended up like that because of only top mks went and at apex only 2 of them went so that might be why its like this. DSF lee tyrant and spammer where all missing thats why theres so few mk's.

 

[Palpi]

Apex still had plenty of top MK's. Spam also quit.

M2k asked Ally to split.

Diembrandon said if you saw M2k's face you knew he was trying. He clearly got outplayed. if he was sandbaged he wouldn't have purposely landed on Ally's c4 after losing all of his jumps prior to the gimp.

My friend had m2k in his pools. He went iceclimbers and 0-deathed him. Then he stops sandbagging. After he lost to lain he beat him with ease in losers bracket.

 

[doom dragon 105]

I think M2K just got out played. I wasn't there, but I saw the matches seems to me he got a little too desperate for kills at certain points. I never really thought M2K was the most skilled player he just knew what he was doing and used the most broken character ever. I think players like Ninja Link and Ally are better, but that is just my opinion.

Also I need some help with ike.

Ledge and grab game, how can I use them well. My grab game is alright, but my ledge game isn't too good with Ike so any advice

 

[Palpi]

Metaknight is overpowered not broken. He uses the best character and is the best player, but that doesn't mean he can't lose. He could've been playing a bit under his game, but you know he was doing stuff right. Ally just read his gimps, worked c4's and techs perfectly and managed to stay alive a lot longer than their past matches. Ninjalink has only beat M2k in 1 set. He does take games off of him though.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

was it because M2K was twitching?? He did that while he was sanding bagging dojo at whobo its just how he plays. If he wasn't sand bagging he wouldn't have swam off the stage durring the delfino match. He died off the side blast zone not because of the spike. M2K has talked a good bit about stages in brawl having boundaries like this \_/ he went to the closest blast zone in that match.


M2K does a lot of things wrong in this match too though so it doesn't actually prove that mk isn't ban worthy like people are saying. Back when snake was top EL said MK's where just jumping into **** which is exactly what M2K did. He also doesn't momentum cancel with Uair so no he wasn't doing stuff right. Those are just the 2 biggest things he did imo.

 

[theeboredone]

I say we drop this discussion and go play some Brawl+. That game is too sexy.

 

[Palpi]

There is nothing to discuss, MK won't be banned whether you want the ban or not, it's foolish.

 

[doom dragon 105]

There is nothing to discuss, MK won't be banned whether you want the ban or not, it's foolish.

If Akuma got banned in SF II then so will MK

 

[Palpi]

Bets anyone? Akuma was so easy to play in streetfighter 2. MK still requires a player who knows what he is doing. Akuma was a perfect form of a balanced character. Mk has weakness, and is only 3 characters worst match up and loses all of the time. He is the best character in the game, he should win the most. MK may not be approachable, but you can force him to approach with many characters. Akuma couldn't be approached or forced to approached though he could dominate you at either of them.

 

[Marauder]

Most people would like to see MK banned but in all honesty its not gonna happen. He's a great character and has no negative matchups but most of his positive ones are not greatly in his favour. He can beaten. NL has done it, and we all know what happened with Ally. IMO, he's just the best character in the game. Just because he's the best doesn't mean he's banworthy.

 

[Palpi]

You are correct. I wouldn't mind if MK was banned. It would make my Marth transition a lot easier, but at the same time comparing MK to Akuma is literally absurd and obviously proves there was no prior experience to either character. He doesn't meet the criteria of a broken character because he isn't broken.

 

[Marauder]

Problem with alot of communities nowadays is that as soon as something thats "too good" shows up they're ready to swing the banhammer. Learn how to fight the character, and slowly people will start to make the switch to other characters.

@Palpi: I prefer the Silver Marth lulz

 

[Palpi]

I am not sure which one I prefer. I use it because it goes with my name. Both are hawt.

 

[theeboredone]

Well it has ONLY been a year and few months since Brawl came out. I would say that MK's "domination" has lessened over this time, but I think people also argue on the fact that the dude has virtually no bad match ups. I think more time needs to be given.

 

[Palpi]

Having no bad match ups isn't ban worthy. Being almost unbeatable at any level of play is banworthy. "Akuma"

 

[Rykoshet]

Well it has ONLY been a year and few months since Brawl came out. I would say that MK's "domination" has lessened over this time, but I think people also argue on the fact that the dude has virtually no bad match ups. I think more time needs to be given.

The only 3 characters to date that have beaten m2k are all broken themselves, so it's not really a fair thing to say.

Note that broken doesn't mean unbeatable though.

 

[Palpi]

The only 3 characters to date that have beaten m2k are all broken themselves, so it's not really a fair thing to say.

Note that broken doesn't mean unbeatable though.

Broken means almost unbeatable. People make the statement M2K only lost to Ninjalink, Azen(?) and Ally in "how many tournaments?!" M2K uses the best character and is the best player. It is assumed he will win every tournament. Too many times I have heard examples given like saying that every Metaknight is M2k.

 

[Rykoshet]

Unbeatability has nothing to do with an aspect being broken. Forcing trips (diddy), a heavily manipulated, exploding, frame one, delayed projectile coupled with insane range, low frame killshots, hard hits, and heavy as **** weight (snake), and a "if you get grabbed you die" (IC) scenario are all easily broken.

 

[Palpi]

Specific "broken" aspects of characters doesn't make a character ban worthy (i know you never stated that, I am just saying). Sure snake is heavy, but he can be gimped. The IC infinites are broken, but they have I think there 2nd worst grab and 4th dash grab or something like that? M2K had to fight like a ***** to beat lain the losers bracket but it was fairly easy 2nd time around. I don't know what you are trying to get across Ryko because I am not talking about broken aspects of characters, just broken characters. No character in brawl is broken, but many have brokens aspects of their game.

 

[Kimchi]

Arguably, one could say Meta Knight is a broken character based upon his specific broken aspects, such as his Mach Tornado and his Shuttle Loop. If M2K didn't ban FD against Lain, I'm certain that Lain could have taken another set off M2K. He had the platform on Smashville to Tornado back to safely and as a result, Lain couldn't grab him. It's apparent that broken aspects of a character are the primary factors in determining a "broken" character. I really doubt it matters that IC's has the 2nd worst grab and 4th dash grab if he has a broken infinite that he could still use.

 

[comboking]

Sorry, for my absents school is almost over. THANK GOD!

 

[Palpi]

I acknowledge MK as by far the best character but until scrubs pick him up and win regional tournies and when there there is only MK's in national tournies filling up top 10, there is no real point in banning him, especially since him banning wouldn't do much other than make marth more viable.

@lain. That is the point of counterpick stages. That is like saying if ADHD played M2k 2 times on FD he would win. You have to find a way to win without your best stage. I see ninjalink beats good MK's on brinstar and ADHD win on delfino. Just because a character is the best doesn't mean he is bannable, especially if he loses. The way everyone percieves the term broken is different. However you think broken means, MK, broken or not, is not bannable. He is not Akuma, not even close.

And Comboking, I was enjoying it .... <3

 

[comboking]

Yeah I was enjoying being away from here too. LOL! <3

 

[Kimchi]

Even if MK is beatable, you realize how much work even a person who uses a high tier character at a professional level has to go through to win against a really good MK? Ally vs M2K is the perfect example. Ally is best Snake while M2K is the best Meta Knight, but look at how much effort it took Ally to take a set off M2K. MK's beatable, yes, but that doesn't change the huge amount of work that every character has to put in beating him. I'm not saying he should be banned, but he certainly is banworthy because for 1 thing, scrubs can pick him up and defeat players even with amateur experience. When I say scrubs, I literally mean people who just started the game. As long as they know how to use a C-stick, move, recover, they can win. He is such an easy pick-up character that is also the best character. Take a look at Ksizzle, he mains Lucario but he picked up MK and he placed 5th at Apex (He's not a scrub of course). I'm saying anyone can pick up MK and if they're already good enough with their original mains, they can pick up MK and easily place well at tournaments.
@ Lain: Yes, I forgot to mention counterpick stages.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Bets anyone? Akuma was so easy to play in streetfighter 2. MK still requires a player who knows what he is doing. Akuma was a perfect form of a balanced character. Mk has weakness, and is only 3 characters worst match up and loses all of the time. He is the best character in the game, he should win the most. MK may not be approachable, but you can force him to approach with many characters. Akuma couldn't be approached or forced to approached though he could dominate you at either of them.

How about in HD remix the game that was re balanced by sirlin? If a game that was made for tournament by the man who wrote the book on competitive gaming has a banned character why would a game in which the programmers went out of there way to eliminate competition would not have a character ban worthy?

Problem with alot of communities nowadays is that as soon as something thats "too good" shows up they're ready to swing the banhammer. Learn how to fight the character, and slowly people will start to make the switch to other characters.

@Palpi: I prefer the Silver Marth lulz

People don't actually learn to fight the character though see how palpi's character changed? guess which character he complained about most before it changed as well. And this is from a guy who says he isn't ban worthy.

I think smash maybe the only game serious with out a banned character in all of its games too.

I acknowledge MK as by far the best character but until scrubs pick him up and win regional tournies and when there there is only MK's in national tournies filling up top 10, there is no real point in banning him, especially since him banning wouldn't do much other than make marth more viable.

@lain. That is the point of counterpick stages. That is like saying if ADHD played M2k 2 times on FD he would win. You have to find a way to win without your best stage. I see ninjalink beats good MK's on brinstar and ADHD win on delfino. Just because a character is the best doesn't mean he is bannable, especially if he loses. The way everyone percieves the term broken is different. However you think broken means, MK, broken or not, is not bannable. He is not Akuma, not even close.

And Comboking, I was enjoying it .... <3

How about when inui won his 60 man tournament the day of hobo 11? Do you honestly think banning MK is only going to make marth better that is the dumbest thing I've heard... MK being banned is going to change a huge amount of things not just one character. Of course this is really just theory crafting so i don't actually have more of a right of saying it will change everything than you do saying it will only help out marth and no one else at all but your thing just doesn't make sense.

There are people of much less skill that have placed higher than they should look at tyrant he wasn't a scrub but he only placed when he picked up MK, Pierce has said that many MK's under his skill level have beaten him as well so it is actually more common for scrubs to beat decent level people not ally and NJ. How ever as kimchi just said kizzle got much further with MK than with lucario.


Also why are you so sure that MK will not be banned 23 people in the SBR wanted him banned before apex vs 9 that didn't publicly and 5 undecided. I Seriously doubt that the SBR members would have there ideas swayed just by 1 tournament result vs 1000s of others. Plus I'm pretty sure that akuma is the only banned character that was unbeatable because he was designed to be broken unlike every other character that gets banned. (for example look at seth or any card in any card game.)

 

[Palpi]

....Ike and Marth are the same match up vs metaknight well ike is 7-3mk, but Metaknight makes Marth less viable cause Ike isn't a tournament viable character to begin with. Metaknight isn't holding Ike back. L/R buttons are You are confusing me wanting metaknight banned, and him actually being ban worthy. I wouldn'd mind metaknight being banned, but if people like diddy kongs, some lucarios, snakes, and d3's like Atomsk (who convinced m2k at the highest level of game play mk vs d3 is 55-45 MK, at apex) keep getting close or winning against good metaknight, then he won't be banned.

I say that it will only help marth because he is the best character that MK makes inviable. It is very hard to win against a good MK as marth. If G&W was banned you would see more low and mid tier reps, considering he has a lot more **** match ups, and MK is like 3 characters worst match up. Pierce finally acknowledged you can't speciale as marth and win a tournament so he is going Marth for all but MK and using Falco. He might use falco for something else, I don't know. Especially in a disadvantage match up a character using the best character in the game should be able to do better that is what should happen.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

He actually is ban worthy, convincing M2K that a match up isn't **** doesn't take much you just have to beat him while he is sand bagging. A lot of G&W mains like hylian think the match up is 65:35 and when m2k got 2 stocked in a tournament by a G&W he was like oh look the match is probably 55:45 or 60:40 at worse. He changes his mind about things every week and like i said he is not the highest level of gameplay and it is very noticeable by him momentum canceling with dair instead of uair. He does a lot of things wrong in match ups its just worked for him up until now because he is so good and hasn't had the need to use his character to the fullest. The guy says pikachu should be banned for gods sake...


It will not only help marth though and you need to stop saying that because it is stupid. It will hurt all the characters who are thought to be his counters or the ones that convince M2K of the match up only being 55:45. MK being banned is not for just one character it may help him out the most but the most commonly used character in the game is going to affect everyone.

edit: just an FYI MK has once again received his own rank above the S rank in tournament placings. In every other game when a character is banned they receive the title of god tier, S, or SS rank.

 

[Marauder]

I admit that AB has some good points. However, just because you have to play at your best to take him down or someone who's not as good as you picks him up and trounces you doesn't make MK bannable. It just means that we should mastering our mains and playstyles so that BS like that doesn't happen too often. I will say though that any character that REQUIRES counterpicking needs to be addressed.

Another community I'm a part of had a problem like this. They had mixed thoughts about banning a character until the best player and his crew picked him up and absolutely ***** an entire tournament. What eventually got him banned is not that tournament but that character's actual abilities. He didn't suffer from negative status effects, positive ones lasted twice as long, he FORCED approaches and shut them down in a foolproof way. On top of that, when his HP was reduced past a certain point he would activate the most unfair ability in the game. He had to be banned.

 

[san.]

I think it wouldn't hurt to try to look over some strategies for getting around some of the more predictable gimps for MK. Like which aerials Ike could use to get past usual MK attempts. Ike fast falls faster than MK, too, right? so it shouldn't be so easy to chase after Ike after Ike gets lower. I assume that you have your double jump, because it's not wise to use it much at all in this matchup. Ike should try to get low and below the stage for that reverse aether, and always be prepared to tech if the unexpected happens.

If Ike is facing away from the stage, I think fast fall up air should work wonders. I think the hitbox in upair extends above and behind him a little farther and for a longer period of time, and IIRC it starts behind him. Hopefully, the worst could be a double collision or something. I think it'll still work, yet be less successful with a forward up air. IMO fair is very risky out here, especially with the ending lag (use for surprise??), and what MKs usually guess you're going to do is dodge, so that's pretty dangerous, too.

Not sure how safe dair is because of the lag, too, but dair has a pretty nice-sized hitbox underneath, yet it leaves ike vulnerable from the side and above. Up air is slightly safer because Ike is fastfalling and therefore once passed, harder to hit, but one shouldn't underestimate Dair also. If one has attack cstick, they can use non-fast fall dairs and determine when to fastfall if that counts.

 

[Palpi]

Beat him while he is sand baggin then AB. Atomsk is one of the best D3's and he beats every other MK that isn't m2k. It is by far his best match up.

 

[Teh Brettster]

....

Yay, a Marth is coming up to UNT next semester! Epic FE battles!

.... (Do you guys seriously not think that everything about MK has been said already... seriously, it's getting to the point where the same things are being said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again but using different wordings and different examples. I'm tired of hearing about it for now. Let's talk about something else and leave our arguments over MK in that poll thread and the debate forums.)

(plz)

 

[Slaps]

....

Yay, a Marth is coming up to UNT next semester! Epic FE battles!

.... (Do you guys seriously not think that everything about MK has been said already... seriously, it's getting to the point where the same things are being said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again but using different wordings and different examples. I'm tired of hearing about it for now. Let's talk about something else and leave our arguments over MK in that poll thread and the debate forums.)

(plz)

i agree... so stfu guys!... not meant to be rude lol

 

[Palpi]

Subject change. Wave bounced eruptions are the best thing ever.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Correction.
This is the best thing ever. Bored beat me to the idea of putting it in a forum sig.

Palpi, you play Marth, yes? Do you know anything about a TX Marth named Takeurlife?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Beat him while he is sand baggin then AB. Atomsk is one of the best D3's and he beats every other MK that isn't m2k. It is by far his best match up.

O i see now. So for the character not to be ban worthy all of his mains have to sand bag? Also M2K said that the DDD match up is still clearly in MK's advantage during his post about not sand bagging and training kisszle, so atmosk isn't good enough to convince m2k that the match up is even. I also think that atmosk would lose to spammer back when he played so the best DDD beating MK's under his level doesn't mean much.

Also just to get rid of your banning MK will only affect 1 character if you forgot R.O.B. was pretty much made unenviable because of MK, or are you going to say that R.O.B. is as bad as ike and it would still only help marth?

I admit that AB has some good points. However, just because you have to play at your best to take him down or someone who's not as good as you picks him up and trounces you doesn't make MK bannable. It just means that we should mastering our mains and playstyles so that BS like that doesn't happen too often. I will say though that any character that REQUIRES counter picking needs to be addressed.

Another community I'm a part of had a problem like this. They had mixed thoughts about banning a character until the best player and his crew picked him up and absolutely ***** an entire tournament. What eventually got him banned is not that tournament but that character's actual abilities. He didn't suffer from negative status effects, positive ones lasted twice as long, he FORCED approaches and shut them down in a foolproof way. On top of that, when his HP was reduced past a certain point he would activate the most unfair ability in the game. He had to be banned.

palpi was saying that MK wasn't ban able until those things happened. I was merely pointing out that they had happened and happened 6 months ago.

People aren't mastering there characters either, palpi is the perfect example of this. He would complain about MK being a 75-25 match up with Ike and switched to MK after that. Idk why he switched to marth afterwards but the MK's still increase in number because mastering a character just isn't possible.

I don't really understand that sentence of any character that requires to be counter picked needs to be addressed.


edit: honestly until a subject as interesting as this shows up i don't see a reason to change it.

 

[Marauder]

I kinda got it wrong with that sentence. I had something else in mind, but that came out. I can't really put it into words other than CP or get better at the game. Like...unless you bust a nut, theres no beating this guy. Or something like that

And I agree that this subject should stay as is. Good non-BS arguments are coming out lol

 

[metroid1117]

Subject change. Wave bounced eruptions are the best thing ever.

Wavebounced Eruptions do look funny (16:48), but I doubt it would be worth it to change your C-stick to "Specials".

 

[Palpi]

You don't need to... "psuedo b sticking" im sorry.

I didn't complain about MK as Ike. I actually said I am more scared of a snake as Ike than a MK. I said close to even. I merely said what atomsk said. I did see the post that says it is closer but still obviously in MK favor and I am sorry for stating something before I could've known it. (from M2k).

I went to MK because I didn't think my Marth was that great/fun and ike is just fun. I am switching because I had 6 Metaknights in my pool at Apex. You are assuming and judging me without you actually knowing what happened. I am still using MK for my MK match up because I like the MK ditto and Marth is fairly good against every other character (snake and d3 are still pretty tough).

Ally improved so much since Spammer's last appearance at a national tournament. Spammer game is changed so much vs ally because you can't camp a snake. You cannot let his grenades get out and his c4 down or you will run into the **** like you said a lot of MK's do against snake.

Please don't put words in my mouth. "I would complain" ? I would complain about metaknight? I have never played a MK in a tournament before I went MK. I always played D3's and olimars ... -.-'

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Sorry palpi i just remember an Ike in the EC complaining about MKs a lot and you colya ussi kimchi ryko and silven are the only ones i remember for some reason you stuck out the most in my mind when i remembered this.

How ever you can camp a snake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHe7FmMa38w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRIE6b1bnhs

Unless the 2nd best snake in the world isn't a high enough level of the metagame.

 

[Palpi]

That's not candy

On battlefield and smashville it is harder. PS1 is a bigger stage so yeah I can see that, doubt m2k likes that stage, but I dunno. Maybe that is a better stage to pick against a high calibur snake. Candy beat dojo 4-1 (MM and tourney totaled). Dojo didn't really camp him much or as much in the FD match.