An open letter to Sakurai: BPC is no longer doing this

[Sephiroths Masamune]

So much trolling going on in this thread.

 

[Jonas]

So many opinions that are different from OP's going on in this thread.

Yeah it's really sad.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Actually the P:M crew is just trolling. >.> Seriously.

 

[Ulevo]

BPC, you and others have basically made it known that because it's the PMBR team giving you pointers on what you did wrong concerning your delivery in your post, they're just slandering you and your Brawl- name. The fact is that if anyone in this entire community want a good Smash game more than anyone else, its them. Not only do they understand more about what made Brawl so lackluster more than everyone else (i.e. having to correct you on hitstun details), but they understand overall more than anyone else what makes a good Smash game. And out of anyone else, they have gone out, stopped their *****ing on these forums, and done something about it.

I hope you take that sincerely and seriously, because in your personal distate against a Project that has a different direction than yours and its team, you seem to have forgotten the facts.

As for your post in general; good intention, bad approach. For one, the post is far too long. No one is going to read that, including Sakurai. What you need is something that is concise and pertinent to the point; we want a Smash game for competitive and casual players. Then get a following, such as a petition, to support it.

 

[Gatlin]

Please don't make spam-posts, try to at least keep it on the topic of the thread rather than arguing/flaming/trolling amongst each other.

Apparently I didn't make myself clear when I said for people to stop posting spam. Simple 1-line responses which contribute nothing, and are irrelevant to the topic of the thread are spam. If the discussion of the thread is finished, and the only potential for posts left is nonsense, then by all means I can lock it. If we could please get back on the original topic of the thread, that would make me smile. If not, I will not hesitate to hand out infractions. This same rule applies for anyone willing to continue trolling or flaming other users.

 

[King Funk]

I think it's pretty bad that you have Brawl Minus plastered all over at the beginning as if to rub it in Sakurai's face (and self-promote). Doesn't send a very good message at all, especially when you begin with hacking. I'd much prefer it if you said "modifying" because that's really what we're doing, taking existing code and changing it to what we want or just changing textures or changing models or what have you.

I agree with that. You should change the opening paragraphs because they're a bit too provocative.

 

[link2702]

like i said on aib cadet.

need to go through again and re-edit it to make it sound more polite/less rude

alot of it still comes off as seriously hateful, and you are trying to send this to the guy who makes the games, and not only are you basicly saying "you did a lousy job with brawl" but also showing him a HACK of the game and saying "here, this is what we the community did, and this is what brawl SHOULD of been like" the way its still done up comes still to come off as really hateful to the guy, and honestly if he read it as it currently is, just like i said before, it'd tick him off enough that possibly just out of spite he'd make the next smash game even more casualfied then he did brawl.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...I did change the first few paragraphs quite a bit. Or do you mean still?

@Ulevo: go reread shanus's posts in this thread and tell me that that's constructive criticism.

 

[shanus]

The initial post is still entirely too aggressive and basically comes off as hatemail. I can try and provide more feedback later, but the fact is it still reads like a forum post instead of an insightful letter. While I know your intentions are sound, there needs to be substantially more work poured into this to resemble any sense of professionalism to add validity to your points.

I wouldn't use your current post as basis for this either, I would suggest a rewrite from scratch, trying to pull the best points out.

 

[Ulevo]

...I did change the first few paragraphs quite a bit. Or do you mean still?

@Ulevo: go reread shanus's posts in this thread and tell me that that's constructive criticism.

I've been reading all the posts in here. And while not every one of them is constructive, most of them coming from Falco400, Shanus, and StrongBad have been.

I mean, you don't have to like what they're telling you. Just take away the pertinent points from what you've been given and leave it at that.

 

[Strong Badam]

who's StrongBad?

and no offense BPC or Slashy, but using a post by Slashy as a basis probably isn't your best bet.

 

[Slashy]

who's StrongBad?

and no offense BPC or Slashy, but using a post by Slashy as a basis probably isn't your best bet.

You never even read the original post that this was based on, it was a different argument. The original post was trying to explain to casual players what good competitive play and depth made a good overall game.

I take this as an offense because you're attacking me rather than him.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-wii-u/59412341

That's the original argument, I was arguing against someone who claimed that the game wasn't competitive to begin with so appealing to those players doesn't matter at all, that people who hated Brawl's gameplay were salty Melee fans, and all mods were designed to bring back that Melee gameplay.

Project M not only reaffirms the opposing party's side, but it only serves as the prime example of a good Smash game, its very complex and contains many things that I believe enhance the competitive experience, but are not necessary for it.

Brawl Minus serves as the "Brawl done right" philosophy for that argument, it isn't saying that it is ahead of Melee (though I will say it is ahead of Smash 64).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, slashy's portion was addressing something completely different in its original context.

 

[John12346]

Just for the record, I see nothing wrong with move buffering.

Also, BPC, that is an excellent letter. We should try to get that sent out ASAP, because it's exactly what the producers of Smash need to hear.

 

[Shorts]

I hope this makes it to him, or someone close to him. I know how to get a hold of nintendo at the lowest level. (Simple people who answer any questions you have about Nintendo) I used them for deciding on a good game design college.

You could start here and see if you can get higher up the chain. I think you could, with enough time put into convincing level after level of people to let you send this to Sakurai or affiliate.

I'm crossing my fingers. Although I'M SURE he knows exactly what complaints have been said about brawl. Hopefully this wakes him up and actually pushes him to fix them, instead of implementing more of them.

However, the Brawl Minus stuff seems immensely irrelevant.

 

[Impmacaque]

You raise plenty of legitimate issues and the criticism of Brawl is spot on.

However (and this is just my personal opinion), at many points the letter reads as condescending and/or insulting. Unfortunately, I don't know how to remedy this. The part where you seem to be lecturing Sakurai on fighting games is particularly egregious. If Sakurai WANTED to make a competitive fighter, he would be able to just fine without an armchair developer trying to coach him. The goal of the letter should be to convince Sakurai that Smash with advanced, deep mechanics can still be a perfectly accessible game for casuals (and, if anything, results in a better game with much wider appeal). Technical depth and casual fun do NOT have to be mutually exclusive.

One of your statements I had most issue with:

If people want to play a party game, they do not buy Super Smash Bros

This is flat out wrong. People who play Smash Brothers competitively make up a tiny, tiny demographic. To date, 10 million copies of Brawl have sold. For the vast majority of those 10 million people, Brawl represents a party game for 4-player casual fun (much like Mario Kart). MOST of the people who buy Brawl do not care and will never know about advanced technical aspects of the game. Most of them don't even recognize standard terms like "spacing" "frames" "hitstun" and such. At the entry level, the Smash Brothers games MUST appeal to people who want to just pick up a game and have some simple fun with it, because these are the people who are buying the most copies.

Lastly, and on a rather unrelated note, the whole plug-in for Brawl Minus probably doesn't belong there. I doubt Sakurai knows/cares about a random mod for Brawl. He isn't going to install the mod to see first-hand what you're talking about, and he isn't going to care about all the praise you're heaping on the mod. If you want him to take what you say seriously, focus on elaborating on the major issues in Brawl and how removing them and adding more technical depth results in a better, funner game for everyone. Focus on how many characters are flat out terrible even for casual players (Ganon) and how the game SHOULD be playtested for balance so that everyone can be viable with the character they enjoy. You do seem to mention in major ways all of these points, but it gets lost when it's sandwiched between the Brawl Minus stuff and the (in my opinion) unnecessary lecturing.

Focus on how Melee was massively successful without excluding either the hardcore or casual demographics, and then maybe you'll have something that he'll take to heart.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

you still have no nontumble trajectory DI
you still have random tripping on moves with a 180-360 angle below the tumble threshold
you still don't have trajectory DI on moves with trajectories of -17 to +17
where's your shieldstun code from? brawl+?
how long is the shield drop animation in your game? still 7 or 8 frames?
you /added/ hitstun rather than simply removing hitstun canceling. this isn't inherently bad or anything, but this shifts the balance between Offensive and Defensive gameplay that Melee had to the offensive side. whether or not that's a good thing is subjective. the rest are clearly design flaws.

You're ****ing kidding, right? You guys already made those codes, why not ****ing release them so that other people can use them? But NO, only Project: M can have those. Because it's of course the best mod, anyone working on anything else should just give up. It's not like anybody else is working on mods with small development teams, like Brawl 64, which consists of, oh wait, JUST ME. Because everyone who has ever expressed interest, when I've actually asked them about actually helping with it, they're either busy with Project M, or weren't actually serious.

Not to mention Project M makes ****ty design decisions like removing PERFECTLY FINE SPECIALS that were ALREADY ESTABLISHED AND CANON like Rock Smash.

I'm sorry, but at least you could release the fix for the tripping.

Also I was under the impression the two-line hitstun code removed the cancel out of hitstun, which is what Brawl Minus uses.

 

[Tien2500]

Ok... if you actually want this taken seriously, here are a few more recommendations.

1. Don't use the word shafted.

2. Get several Brawl members together to write this. Make something that honestly reflects the opinion of the Brawl Community. Based on how well this topic has been going, that will be difficult.

3. Talk a little about the Brawl Community. Give a little more back story about how Brawl is important to you guys. You do this a bit, but the way you phrase it comes from a point of entitlement. Basically it reads like "we're the biggest fans, so you <i>have</i> to cater to us.

4. Know your place. You are a video game fan addressing a top developer. In this realm, you are not nearly equals. You're accomplished freelance game designers and are studying game design? That's nice. He's working on one of the most popular game series for one of the largest developers in the world. You sound like a high school quarterback trying to give Peyton Manning advice on his throwing motion. He's Mario. You're an anonymous Toad.

To tell him things like "This is a really bad idea, no matter what philosophy your business may have regarding game design. If people want to play a party game, they do not buy Super Smash Bros. They buy Mario Party or Raving Rabbids or Wii Sports-the wii (and nintendo overall) has tons of simple plug-and-play party games. Super Smash Bros, as unconventional as it is, is a fighting game. And taking the competition out of a fighting game is like taking the sugar out of a coke" is pretentious and ridiculous.

The Smash Brothers series has sold over 20 million units, with each entry being more successful than the last. Brawl alone sold over ten million. It enjoys a meta-rating of over 90%. Are you seriously trying to tell him that his business model and his game are flawed? With all due respect, who exactly are you?

5. Make it short. He's pretty busy and if this letter gets to him, he may not have a ton of time to read it.

6. Keep the language appropriate. Don't say things like "whatever, I don't know". If you're not a very strong writer, or you don't have much experience with this kind of writing, then try to find someone in the Smash community who is.

7. Remember that you're in the minority. "If there is any single complaint about Brawl that comes up almost every time, this is it. " Statements like this make it seem like you have no experience outside the hardcore community. Believe it or not there are a ton of people out there who love the Smash series without being part of the competitive community. Me and my friends played the hell out of Melee without knowing the first thing about wavedashing, l-canceling, or chain grabs. There is a whole world outside the competitive community, and Sakurai is making a game for them too.


So, in conclusion, you need to be writing from the position of a fan. You should be explaining that you are part of a small but very passionate fanbase to whom Brawl is very important. You should politely explain to him that the things you are looking for in a Smash game are different than the things the majority of gamers are looking for. You should concisely layout the things that made Brawl more appealing to you, and you should humbly request that he considers the competitive fanbase more when he creates the next Smash games.

 

[Slashy]

Also, if anything from my original post should be taken, it's that I wrote it with the goal of trying to make the casual community accept our view, that what made Melee great can also make their experience better. There is a reason why I prefer casual Melee to casual Brawl, it's that items and mechanics were all intertwined for a perfect experience.

 

[Impmacaque]

I'm gonna go ahead and second everything Tien2500 just said since he said it far better than I did. This whole letter needs significant editing if you expect him to actually read it and consider your opinions.

P.S., Nice to see another old-time NY smasher still posting on these boards. :D

 

[Shell]

Hi BPC, I'm sorry this had to momentarily degenerate into a PM vs. B- fest.

I think everyone here can appreciate your goal; we all want an enjoyable Smash 4, and you've done a good job of compiling the major criticisms against Brawl.

If you would consider turning this into more of a joint letter from the modding community as a whole, we in PM would be happy to help you polish up your feedback into something more resembling a business letter.

Cheers.

 

[Tien2500]

I'm gonna go ahead and second everything Tien2500 just said since he said it far better than I did. This whole letter needs significant editing if you expect him to actually read it and consider your opinions.

P.S., Nice to see another old-time NY smasher still posting on these boards. :D

I actually think you said things pretty well. If I read your post before I made mine, I might not have bothered. Haven't been really into Smash for a while, but I thought I'd check out what people thought about the new games.

 

[Impmacaque]

I actually think you said things pretty well. If I read your post before I made mine, I might not have bothered. Haven't been really into Smash for a while, but I thought I'd check out what people thought about the new games.

Same here. It's been a long, long time since I took smash seriously, but I still check up on these forums once in a blue moon. I always get excited for a new Smash Bros release, and I end up coming back to these forums to see what people think.

Definitely isn't the same community it used to be, but everything seems different when you're older methinks. The NY melee scene was a hell of a lot of fun back then, at any rate.

 

[Tien2500]

Same here. It's been a long, long time since I took smash seriously, but I still check up on these forums once in a blue moon. I always get excited for a new Smash Bros release, and I end up coming back to these forums to see what people think.

Definitely isn't the same community it used to be, but everything seems different when you're older methinks. The NY melee scene was a hell of a lot of fun back then, at any rate.

Honestly I never really got into the competitive scene. I'm more of a lurker. What excites me about the new Smash is the potential for decent online play. Getting back on topic, I'm shocked this wasn't mentioned in the letter. A good online mode could bring a ton of attention to the competitive scene and would bring more people to tournaments.

 

[Xyless]

Hi BPC, I'm sorry this had to momentarily degenerate into a PM vs. B- fest.

I think everyone here can appreciate your goal; we all want an enjoyable Smash 4, and you've done a good job of compiling the major criticisms against Brawl.

If you would consider turning this into more of a joint letter from the modding community as a whole, we in PM would be happy to help you polish up your feedback into something more resembling a business letter.

Cheers.

I'd much rather something like this would happen, since each mod covers a strong demographic and obviously there is generally something that should be said from every single side.

Heck, one thing I'd request is letting us continue using BRSTM stuff. I'd hate for all of my BRSTM work to go to waste.

 

[JOE!]

Hold it, did someone just call Rock Smash a fitting move for charizard?


(rage meter at 70%)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I have to agree with the notions of leaving out hacks and just focusing on what you dislike about Brawl briefly. A lot of what SHeLL said basically.

I still don't get where the notion Melee was built more competitive than Brawl, or how the human aspects outside of that drive the competition are ignored.

 

[Reizilla]

Conclusion: nothing.

 

[shanus]

Hold it, did someone just call Rock Smash a fitting move for charizard?


(rage meter at 70%)

Lol, same thing I saw!

 

[Revven]

or how the human aspects outside of that drive the competition are ignored.

They're ignored because they're not apart of designing the game. The game clearly was designed to be anti-competitive and even though there are plenty of people who play it competitively, that doesn't suddenly change how the game was programmed. There's so many things that were purposely disabled by Sakurai and his team at some point in development that tell us they didn't want X to occur because that wouldn't make the playing field fair. Even though disabling non-tumble DI only made things essentially more unfair, they seemed to test it enough to think it was totally fair in at least four player matches with items set to whatever frequency (which is somewhat true because really you're playing for fun and you wouldn't notice something as what seems to be small but is actually a really impacting change).

I already explained in my previous posts in this thread what makes me come to the above conclusion about Brawl. You're allowed to think otherwise, but how humans perceive and/or play the game has nothing to do with how the game was made and its real intent. In 2008-2009, you could definitely argue that Brawl is competitive because of the drive of the community. Now with what we know? I wouldn't say you could argue it now, but you're allowed to believe it for sure. In the letter he could definitely mention even though there's all these anti-competitive things in the game people still play it competitively because they love Smash so much. All that would help in doing is making the letter change to how Sakurai & his team focusing on the casuals has made the competitive scene (or competitive matches) flawed due to the changes he made that are crucial to competitive matches being fair or actually enjoyable (and no I'm not talking about L-canceling, I'm talking about things like tripping and non-tumble DI or hell just teching on the ground not being garbage).

And let's not forget the lack of actually testing Meta Knight thoroughly. And many of the changes he made to Brawl is what allows MK to be so good, nevermind his move set.

In any case, I'm rambling at this point so I'm done, the letter just needs a cohesive and concise argument that's well thought out and not wordy like it is right now.

 

[Life]

*rewrites letter*

"

Dear Sakurai-san:

This is a letter regarding the recently-announced development of a new Super Smash Bros game, specifically the Wii-U version. To be clear, we love your series. Super Smash Bros is truly a work of art. However, we think you can make this incredible series even better.

Iwata-san tells us the Wii-U is made to appeal to everybody.

While expert players aren't the majority in any fandom, they're both large enough as a group and vocal enough to cause a significant increase in sales, especially factoring in their word-of-mouth potential. Super Smash Bros is a prime example.

Super Smash Bros Melee appealed to "hardcore" players more than any other game in the series, as you said in an interview. Its sequel, Super Smash Bros Brawl, focused on the "casual" demographic more than either of its two prequels. This shift wasn't inherently a bad idea, but there is a weakness in this line of thought: video games do not have to only appeal to one of these crowds.

Proof of this idea can be found in Melee and Brawl's sales data: Melee was a game both experts and new players enjoyed. Brawl's simpler game mechanics, while not necessarily unjustified, angered a noticeable portion of expert players. While Brawl sold better in absolute terms, it had a much greater base of Wii owners to work with. Melee sold 7 million copies on a system that sold 21 million units (33%). Brawl sold 10 million copies on a system that sold 77 million units (12%).

Clearly, there's a lesson to be learned. The Wii-U is poised to become the most successful system Nintendo has created in a long time, and could easily eclipse the Wii in sales if Nintendo plays their cards right. We suggest you take these lessons and apply it to the new Super Smash Bros game: make the next Smash appeal to both expert and casual demographics.

If you'd like a more-specific critique, look to Brawl's robust modding community. Considering the implications of using unauthorized code on one's system, the great variety of mods are both a love letter to the series and a critique of Brawl. Sure, there are players who just use modifications to add new music or textures once they become tired of the ones packaged into the game, but others go to greater lengths to change the game. Here's a list of the most prominent ones:

*"Project M" is a huge effort to effectively turn Brawl into Melee. This speaks for itself.
*"Balanced Brawl" is an effort to better balance the characters with as few physics changes as possible.
*"Brawl+" is somewhat between those two, with some physics changes but still mostly focused on balance.
*"Brawl-" is an effort to make every character in the game seem overpowered, causing all sorts of ridiculous, fun-to-watch gameplay while still being balanced.

What do all of these have in common?

1. A no-tripping code.
2. A code to remove the three-minute limit on replays, usually accompanied by one to save player names in the replay. (Why was this limit implemented?)
3. Changes to improve character balance. (You've already announced you're seeking to improve this, which we applaud.)
4. An overall greater focus on offense than unmodified Brawl.
5. Beta testing. This is probably less viable for a professional company than for simple mods to an existing game, but it should be considered nonetheless.

Your future sales base eagerly awaits further news on the new game.

Sincerely,

______________________

"

---------------

Money talks. Not sure how to sign this.

 

[Tien2500]

The ironic part about all this is that people expect Sakurai to make a game that pleases millions of people, yet they can't create a mod that pleases a few hundred.

As for a letter... it should probably go something like this.

"Dear Sakurai. We thank you in advance for spending the time to read this letter. I am writing on behalf of Smash Boards, a group of very passionate Smash Bros. fans. Smash Boards is a place where smashers gather to discuss the game, and organize tournaments which have drawn hundreds of avid fans from all over the world. Smash Brothers is a large part of our lives, and we thank you for creating these wonderful games.

We at Smash Boards are very excited to hear that you are making a new entry to the Smash Brothers series. We hope that when you make this series you will keep us, the most passionate Smash Brothers players, in mind. We have spent a lot of time discussing this matter, and here are some suggestions that we feel will make the Smash Brothers series more appealing to our audience.

First of all, we would appreciate it if tripping was removed. While it is funny to see Wario land flat on his face, it can be very frustrating to travel hundreds of miles to a tournament, and to lose because of tripping."

And so on so forth. Again, don't insult the man, don't assume you know more about how to make or market a game (btw when the install base increases that much, the attach rate is bound to go down), and don't mention mods. Or do whatever you want. The chances of this letter reaching Sakurai are pretty slim.

 

[Strong Badam]

The ironic part about all this is that people expect Sakurai to make a game that pleases millions of people, yet they can't create a mod that pleases a few hundred.

Project M demo has over 12 thousand downloads as of the end of February. Don't make claims without evidence.
Inferiority Complex wrote his letter quite well I think.

 

[Tien2500]

Project M demo has over 12 thousand downloads as of the end of February. Don't make claims without evidence.
Inferiority Complex wrote his letter quite well I think.

Lol. Some situations call for exact stats others do not. My point still more than stands. Modders expect Sakurai to make the perfect game that appeals to every demographic, yet they can't do the same for a fanbase less than 1% of that size.

As for inferiority's letter, it wasn't bad but I think it still suffers from a similar issue. It seems that he's trying to teach Sakurai about marketing and game design, and with all due respect, he does not need a lesson from anyone round these parts.

Edit: Btw I didn't mean to insult anybody working on Project M or any other mod, and I can see how my post could have came off that way. Sorry if anyone took it like that. My point was that Brawl modders of all people should understand exactly how difficult it is to create a game that truly appeals to everyone, and should have a bit more respect for Sakurai who has to deal with this daunting task.

 

[PurDi]

Project M demo has over 12 thousand downloads as of the end of February. Don't make claims without evidence.
Inferiority Complex wrote his letter quite well I think.

And how many people are still playing it Strong Bad? I know not me or any of the 'slightly' competitive people around me. In fact I'm so displeased with the demo that it makes me want to play brawl... You guys are probably no where close to being at 12000 players (multi-downloads from failed files, people that think the game is horrid until the patch comes out like myself, melee players that tried it all of once, etc.). I'd go far enough to say that you might have 1000 'players' right now with some of those off and on waiting till the patch is released.


Now onto my thoughts about the actual OP. Working directly with BPC was actually great, I learned to look into some of the deeper parts of the game to find alternate ways of thinking. While BPC is right about a lot of the changes that need to be made in SSB4, I don't think he's advertising. Why in the world would he advertise B- to Project Sora and Sakurai? To get the game to be more like his? Heck yes, that's where the game needs to be! The game needs to be crazy! IT'S WHAT SMASH HAS ALWAYS BEEN SEEN AS! Smash =/= melee. Smash = fun. That being said, PM is fun, but its just melee v2; which is great and all but we all know the SSB4 team is straying from melee so that's just a stupid idea...

idk, just my 2 cents...


EDIT: I know this was a little late, but I read the whole thread and that post just set me off. Stop being such an arrogant troll strong bad. I respect you as a player, but learn some manners.

 

[Laem]

Why the **** is this P:M vs B- going on here? Since when has P:M vs B- ever gone on at all? wtf people... lol.

As for the letter, imo you should let any notice of the brawl modding community out. The truth is: nobody cares about them. I personally stopped reading OP(i obv read the most recent version) when BPC brought B- into the picture cuz i assumed it was gonna be mainly autofellatio, not adding much to what already has been said. Before B- was brought into the picture though, it was an excellent read to me.
Just take the major faults, suggest an alternative and be really overly nice and kind.

 

[Conviction]

Am I and whoever supposed to be helping me needed yet?

 

[Life]

Nope. Don't hold your breath.

 

[Teran]

This isn't a blog so it's not going to stay open here. Sorry.

 

[Teran]

And opened in light of some revelations about some technical issues.