An open letter to Sakurai: BPC is no longer doing this

[Life]

And opened in light of some revelations about some technical issues.

Links would be appreciated.

 

[Teran]

What the **** are you talking about?

 

[Laem]

Teran u doubleposting y

 

[Teran]

Cos I can dawg.

Nah it was to bump it back up after I unlocked it, felt it was only fair.

 

[Life]

Excuse me, I should have been more clear.

What "revelations about technical issues" were you referring to?

 

[Teran]

Revelations about technical issues I received in the staffer shack, which I could link you to but you wouldn't be able to see it anyway.

Don't worry it's no big deal, LulzSec is not about to hack your Wii.

 

[Xyless]

I was gonna say, the topic randomly moved to User Blogs, so it being closed because it isn't a blog seemed kind of...weird.

Anyways the most important thing Nintendo can take from Brawl Minus is those amazing portraits of the characters. And by that, I mean I'd give them full permission!

 

[metalmonstar]

I think if each of us could follow along with the main goal and make our own rewrites then compare notes, it may turn out a lot better. Certainly, I believe that there could be a very strong balance that would make the fourth installment fun for competitive and casual. Casual players out number us by such a huge margin. I don't think we make up even close to 1% of the people who play smash. I mean there are 10 million copies of smash sold that is more than any other fighting game. So it means that we have our work cut out for us if we even hope to have Nintendo or Project Sora even think about our interest.

 

[Ukemi]

I like the intent, but the execution wasn't that great. I know I'm being vague but I don't have time to pick out everything right now and will get to it later on hopefully.

To whoever quoted Sakurai/Iwata about wanting to make it where casuals can beat competitives, why would they want it that way? I understand that the point is so that everyone can join in and have fun, but to make a legendary game not reward you for spending more time with it is not a great idea. I wish they would elaborate a little on this kind of stuff. For all I know, they could just be hinting at a handicap system rather than a huge goal for the game. In fact, I wish all developers would take some time to hash out a monthly public statement of where they are going with the game philosophically. But that would not benefit them too much. D:

And to whoever makes fun of Charizard's Rock Smash: I think it was a ridiculous idea as well. But it's honestly a very satisfying move to pull off (like a Falcon Punch or a lightning kick from Zelda) and I can't really think of any better way they could have implemented a Rock Smash move on Charizard. Although there are better moves that represent Charizard.
[super digression: I have ideas for Pokemon Trainer becoming a cooler character by replacing the switch move with another move, and making switching done with the side-taunts (so you can actually choose which one comes out next) and turning Pokemon Trainer into a stage control character with Bubbles that last as a cloud of foam and Leech Seed mines and Fire Spins that stay for a while]

 

[Tien2500]

To whoever quoted Sakurai/Iwata about wanting to make it where casuals can beat competitives, why would they want it that way? I understand that the point is so that everyone can join in and have fun, but to make a legendary game not reward you for spending more time with it is not a great idea. I wish they would elaborate a little on this kind of stuff. For all I know, they could just be hinting at a handicap system rather than a huge goal for the game.

Look at Mario Kart for a clear example of this philosophy. In Mario Kart, the player in last place gets the best items, and the person in first gets pelted with Blue Shells.

In Smash, items and pity smashes serve the same purpose. If a player isn't as good as another they can still get lucky with a golden hammer, breaking a smash ball, etc.

But, in Smash Brothers, items can be turned off entirely, and random stages can simply not be selected. The only truly anticompetitive element in the game is tripping, and that's really not the huge deal people make it out to be.

As for the lack of hitstun/combos making a game less competitive. If Smash was an uncompetitive game then we wouldn't see the same players placing consistently.

 

[Falconv1.0]

It's not that it's uncompetitive, it's just that zero work into balance and the depth and amount of options is just so sad compared to Melee and other fighters.

 

[Reizilla]

Melee had the exact same amount of work. Brawl just got lucky we didn't end up with a garbage game again (save tripping).

 

[Xyless]

Look at Mario Kart for a clear example of this philosophy. In Mario Kart, the player in last place gets the best items, and the person in first gets pelted with Blue Shells.

Too bad Mario Kart is horribly unbalanced (Funky Kong is statistically the best driver by far).

 

[Meru.]

The ironic part about all this is that people expect Sakurai to make a game that pleases millions of people, yet they can't create a mod that pleases a few hundred.

As for a letter... it should probably go something like this.

"Dear Sakurai. We thank you in advance for spending the time to read this letter. I am writing on behalf of Smash Boards, a group of very passionate Smash Bros. fans. Smash Boards is a place where smashers gather to discuss the game, and organize tournaments which have drawn hundreds of avid fans from all over the world. Smash Brothers is a large part of our lives, and we thank you for creating these wonderful games.

We at Smash Boards are very excited to hear that you are making a new entry to the Smash Brothers series. We hope that when you make this series you will keep us, the most passionate Smash Brothers players, in mind. We have spent a lot of time discussing this matter, and here are some suggestions that we feel will make the Smash Brothers series more appealing to our audience.

First of all, we would appreciate it if tripping was removed. While it is funny to see Wario land flat on his face, it can be very frustrating to travel hundreds of miles to a tournament, and to lose because of tripping."

And so on so forth. Again, don't insult the man, don't assume you know more about how to make or market a game (btw when the install base increases that much, the attach rate is bound to go down), and don't mention mods. Or do whatever you want. The chances of this letter reaching Sakurai are pretty slim.

Good begin and suitable tone imo.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Melee had the exact same amount of work. Brawl just got lucky we didn't end up with a garbage game again (save tripping).

Exact same, really? I mean I don't they put a lot of effort into either but Sakurai was a lot more explicit about Brawl being for "casual" players, so that everyone could win, which seems like his excuse for doing rather ******** ****, like derp everything wrong with MK ever.

 

[Reizilla]

Quite. Neither was made with any intention of being competitively balanced. And MK wasn't intentionally derped for anti-competitiveness, just like Fox wasn't intentionally derped to be completely broken. They both ended up the way they are by chance. Only thing you can really point fingers at is tripping.

 

[Messatsu!]

i hope they increase tripping probability even more

 

[Ukemi]

Look at Mario Kart for a clear example of this philosophy. In Mario Kart, the player in last place gets the best items, and the person in first gets pelted with Blue Shells.

In Smash, items and pity smashes serve the same purpose. If a player isn't as good as another they can still get lucky with a golden hammer, breaking a smash ball, etc.

But, in Smash Brothers, items can be turned off entirely, and random stages can simply not be selected. The only truly anticompetitive element in the game is tripping, and that's really not the huge deal people make it out to be.

As for the lack of hitstun/combos making a game less competitive. If Smash was an uncompetitive game then we wouldn't see the same players placing consistently.

I totally understand the rubber banding (in Mario Kart) where if a player is within a certain range of domination, they can lessen the gap of how dominated they were, as long as the more dominant one has a (much) higher chance of winning. Of course I'd like to have something like that have the ability to be turned off.
So yeah I'm basically agreeing with you/them on that one now.
I agree with your sentiment out tripping. It's like complaining if Peach gets a bomb. Yes, it can have huge impact, but it's really not THAT bad. (some kid will criticize me about losing $10582.10 from a trip or something probably)
The fact is that it makes running a risk, just like a lot of other moves in the game. Probably would have been better if they added a hitbox to tripping, so that it might have positive benefits besides the chance of accidentally dodging an attack.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Ok... if you actually want this taken seriously, here are a few more recommendations.

1. Don't use the word shafted.

2. Get several Brawl members together to write this. Make something that honestly reflects the opinion of the Brawl Community. Based on how well this topic has been going, that will be difficult.

3. Talk a little about the Brawl Community. Give a little more back story about how Brawl is important to you guys. You do this a bit, but the way you phrase it comes from a point of entitlement. Basically it reads like "we're the biggest fans, so you <i>have</i> to cater to us.

4. Know your place. You are a video game fan addressing a top developer. In this realm, you are not nearly equals. You're accomplished freelance game designers and are studying game design? That's nice. He's working on one of the most popular game series for one of the largest developers in the world. You sound like a high school quarterback trying to give Peyton Manning advice on his throwing motion. He's Mario. You're an anonymous Toad.

To tell him things like "This is a really bad idea, no matter what philosophy your business may have regarding game design. If people want to play a party game, they do not buy Super Smash Bros. They buy Mario Party or Raving Rabbids or Wii Sports-the wii (and nintendo overall) has tons of simple plug-and-play party games. Super Smash Bros, as unconventional as it is, is a fighting game. And taking the competition out of a fighting game is like taking the sugar out of a coke" is pretentious and ridiculous.

The Smash Brothers series has sold over 20 million units, with each entry being more successful than the last. Brawl alone sold over ten million. It enjoys a meta-rating of over 90%. Are you seriously trying to tell him that his business model and his game are flawed? With all due respect, who exactly are you?

5. Make it short. He's pretty busy and if this letter gets to him, he may not have a ton of time to read it.

6. Keep the language appropriate. Don't say things like "whatever, I don't know". If you're not a very strong writer, or you don't have much experience with this kind of writing, then try to find someone in the Smash community who is.

7. Remember that you're in the minority. "If there is any single complaint about Brawl that comes up almost every time, this is it. " Statements like this make it seem like you have no experience outside the hardcore community. Believe it or not there are a ton of people out there who love the Smash series without being part of the competitive community. Me and my friends played the hell out of Melee without knowing the first thing about wavedashing, l-canceling, or chain grabs. There is a whole world outside the competitive community, and Sakurai is making a game for them too.


So, in conclusion, you need to be writing from the position of a fan. You should be explaining that you are part of a small but very passionate fanbase to whom Brawl is very important. You should politely explain to him that the things you are looking for in a Smash game are different than the things the majority of gamers are looking for. You should concisely layout the things that made Brawl more appealing to you, and you should humbly request that he considers the competitive fanbase more when he creates the next Smash games.

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. We should all read this post BEFORE making a letter to Mr. Masahiro Sakurai.

BPC, while your letter touches every single thing that bothers the competitive audience, it's not "enough". It's way too long, it's way too "You have to do this, because we, the competitive audience are right 100% of the time" be more polite, short, and explain everything from a lower scale, give your point of view, not the point of view of everyone in the community. You can't tell Mr. Masahiro Sakurai HOW TO DEVELOP a game, if that's his JOB, he won't listen to you from that point of view. Would you listen to a "new player" when you're looking for advice in the grand finals for a tournament? Probably not. That's what happens here. You don't have to tell Mr. Masahiro Sakurai how to do things, period. The best way to have him read your letter ( reading your letter is one thing, but, using that letter as a reference to develop a game it's a COMPLETELY different thing) it's to send him a letter with your "heart" in it, giving your most honest opinion about Brawl and the Smash community, and how do YOU think SSB4 could be a "better" experience for the competitive audience WITHOUT destroying the smash-experience for the casual audience or the rest of the Smash fan base (and believe, there is so much people who play Smash but are not competitive players, or have never attended a tournament). Mr. Masahiro Sakurai will appeal to the biggest audience, not the "best" one. Well, I'm just repeating the post from Tien2500. Excellent effort, but it HAS to be better if you want Mr. Masahiro Sakurai to read it. And you would need to make a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better letter if you want Mr. Masahiro Sakurai to take in CONSIDERATION your letter for the development of Super Smash Brothers 4.

 

[Tien2500]

Why are people actually responding positively to something I posted on Smashboards? This is confusing and scary to me. Maybe I'll press my luck.

I don't think we should be appealing to Sakurai to make the game "we" (or you rather) want. We need to take action starting now and figure out what we can do to make the competitive scene stronger. So, instead of a letter to Sakurai I propose a letter to all of you.

The days leading up to Brawl were exciting times filled with massive amounts of hype. We had a ton of fun speculating on characters and breaking down every last bit of footage from demos. It was a lot of fun, but we weren't nearly as productive as we needed be. We were caught with our pants down when Dedede's infinite was discovered, and again when it became apparent how completely dominant Metaknight would be (not that fake dominance like Snake had).

This time we must be vigilant, and we must start anticipating these issues in advance. I'm not here to tell a community that I'm only vaguely a part of how to act, but I am telling you guys that you have to learn from Brawl. How you may ask? Well here is a start...

1. Realize that you can control character balance- I don't mean to start the argument here again, but I think we can all agree that Metaknight is a divisive force in the Smash Community. By the time the idea of banning him became even vaguely legitimate, it was too late for the two sides to come to any sort of agreement, or even set up a criteria. The idea of a community vote was, in my opinion, a kind of last ditch effort. As much as I dislike MK it was good in retrospect that he was not banned. I think an MK ban based on a popular vote may have caused more damage than it would have been worth.

The community needs to set a precedent now. The time for debate is not when the character is dominating. By that point bias has already been established on both sides. The community needs to use the next few years to decide if and when we can ban any character. They need to set clear and objective criteria as to what would warrant a ban before the first tournament match is played.

2. We need an online system in place- Online play will undoubtedly be a far bigger factor in U-Brawl than it was in Melee. The live community has to realize that the online community will be a huge breeding ground for tournament players. It would be wise to have a strategy to capitalize on this market. Perhaps the folks at Allisbrawl would be willing to help out in that regard.

3. Solve the controller issue before it is an issue- The U-tab is going to be an expensive piece of equipment, and it may only be possible to use 1 U-tab (my name for the Wii-U controller) for a game. What if the U-tab has some features that make the game easier. What if two tournament players want to use the U-tab in a match, but the system only supports one? What if wireless interference becomes rampant? What if the 3DS is a usable controller?

Of course, we don't know what the controller situation will be like yet, but it's never too early to start thinking about these things. As Nintendo reveals more information about the Wii-U and its control schemes tournament organizers and the back room should keep an ear or two open.

4. Customization- Brawl will likely enable customization, through the 3DS version of the game. I would assume that customized characters will be banned in matches, and might be reserved for side tournaments. This may not be the way to go though, and the issue should be given some thought as more information comes in.

In particular, some stages, items, or characters may require a player to have a 3DS version of the game. This might complicate things.

5. Infinites- Metaknight has somewhat cooled the debate on infinites, but this is still a matter that needs to be addressed. The community needs a clear stance on infinites before we discover one.

6. Patches- There is a distinct possibility that Smash Brothers U will be periodically updated by Nintendo. If this happens, will the Smash Community use the most updated patches? Remember, the Brawl Community does not have to do what other communities do.

7. Think of a plan to encourage low tier play- Many characters are victims of self fulfilling prophecy. Once it is established that they are "bad" players don't play as them, and their metagame does not develop properly. Years after Brawl's release, I still think some characters are wildly underdeveloped. We should have a plan to encourage players to use lower tier characters. Most likely, this would take the form of an increased focus on promoting low tier tournaments.

I could go on, but I think my point is clear. If the Smash community is going to thrive it is imperative that you start preparing now. The community needs to plan well in advance for issues that are likely to occur, and they must have a clear plan on how to deal with this issues. This will prevent the splits in the community that have hurt Brawl. U Brawl won't be out for several years, so you guys have plenty of time to prepare. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[Teran]

Man Tien is 100% right about it all being up to the community to step up.

To me, the main difference between Brawl and Melee is the fact that the Melee community had a much greater sense of wanting to evolve, and hell it's still pushing forward nowadays.

The Brawl community kinda took a lot of concepts from the things Melee established, but instead of pushing to really delve into the game, I feel a lot of the players were just not that dedicated, and would never think of what they could do going forward, but rather everything was always very near sighted.

Whatever, not here to start an argument either, but I just feel that if there's anyone who has responsibility when it comes to competitive Smash, well it's the people who play that way and that's it. It's their job to basically create and advance the metagame, so let's hope they do a better job of it next generation.

 

[Life]

Why are people actually responding positively to something I posted on Smashboards? This is confusing and scary to me. Maybe I'll press my luck.

I LOL'd. Good posts are good.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Why are people actually responding positively to something I posted on Smashboards? This is confusing and scary to me. Maybe I'll press my luck.

I don't think we should be appealing to Sakurai to make the game "we" (or you rather) want. We need to take action starting now and figure out what we can do to make the competitive scene stronger. So, instead of a letter to Sakurai I propose a letter to all of you.

The days leading up to Brawl were exciting times filled with massive amounts of hype. We had a ton of fun speculating on characters and breaking down every last bit of footage from demos. It was a lot of fun, but we weren't nearly as productive as we needed be. We were caught with our pants down when Dedede's infinite was discovered, and again when it became apparent how completely dominant Metaknight would be (not that fake dominance like Snake had).

This time we must be vigilant, and we must start anticipating these issues in advance. I'm not here to tell a community that I'm only vaguely a part of how to act, but I am telling you guys that you have to learn from Brawl. How you may ask? Well here is a start...

1. Realize that you can control character balance- I don't mean to start the argument here again, but I think we can all agree that Metaknight is a divisive force in the Smash Community. By the time the idea of banning him became even vaguely legitimate, it was too late for the two sides to come to any sort of agreement, or even set up a criteria. The idea of a community vote was, in my opinion, a kind of last ditch effort. As much as I dislike MK it was good in retrospect that he was not banned. I think an MK ban based on a popular vote may have caused more damage than it would have been worth.

The community needs to set a precedent now. The time for debate is not when the character is dominating. By that point bias has already been established on both sides. The community needs to use the next few years to decide if and when we can ban any character. They need to set clear and objective criteria as to what would warrant a ban before the first tournament match is played.

2. We need an online system in place- Online play will undoubtedly be a far bigger factor in U-Brawl than it was in Melee. The live community has to realize that the online community will be a huge breeding ground for tournament players. It would be wise to have a strategy to capitalize on this market. Perhaps the folks at Allisbrawl would be willing to help out in that regard.

3. Solve the controller issue before it is an issue- The U-tab is going to be an expensive piece of equipment, and it may only be possible to use 1 U-tab (my name for the Wii-U controller) for a game. What if the U-tab has some features that make the game easier. What if two tournament players want to use the U-tab in a match, but the system only supports one? What if wireless interference becomes rampant? What if the 3DS is a usable controller?

Of course, we don't know what the controller situation will be like yet, but it's never too early to start thinking about these things. As Nintendo reveals more information about the Wii-U and its control schemes tournament organizers and the back room should keep an ear or two open.

4. Customization- Brawl will likely enable customization, through the 3DS version of the game. I would assume that customized characters will be banned in matches, and might be reserved for side tournaments. This may not be the way to go though, and the issue should be given some thought as more information comes in.

In particular, some stages, items, or characters may require a player to have a 3DS version of the game. This might complicate things.

5. Infinites- Metaknight has somewhat cooled the debate on infinites, but this is still a matter that needs to be addressed. The community needs a clear stance on infinites before we discover one.

6. Patches- There is a distinct possibility that Smash Brothers U will be periodically updated by Nintendo. If this happens, will the Smash Community use the most updated patches? Remember, the Brawl Community does not have to do what other communities do.

7. Think of a plan to encourage low tier play- Many characters are victims of self fulfilling prophecy. Once it is established that they are "bad" players don't play as them, and their metagame does not develop properly. Years after Brawl's release, I still think some characters are wildly underdeveloped. We should have a plan to encourage players to use lower tier characters. Most likely, this would take the form of an increased focus on promoting low tier tournaments.

I could go on, but I think my point is clear. If the Smash community is going to thrive it is imperative that you start preparing now. The community needs to plan well in advance for issues that are likely to occur, and they must have a clear plan on how to deal with this issues. This will prevent the splits in the community that have hurt Brawl. U Brawl won't be out for several years, so you guys have plenty of time to prepare. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Another brilliant post. Good stuff. This is what we (as a community) should be doing for the next Smash, not posting every 5 seconds in the SSB4 thread "I want this Random Character/Stage/Music in the next Smash!" etc).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Tien should write it. He knows what the **** he's talking about.

 

[Lord Chair]

I don't really understand why people think we can teach Sakurai a thing about game design. If he'd want to create something to cater the Smash community he would be capable of doing so.

We are listing things we want from a competitive philosophy while the man doesn't share that philosophy. There's no sense in trying to make him changes his perspective on game design, the man is dedicated towards his goal of creating a family friendly game and he does consider implementing random gameplay elements and disabling chat online viable tools in reaching that goal.

Whatever criticism you may have on that in terms of it ruining competitive play or whatnot, the arguments he would put forward are solid if the main goal is a family friendly game. You can't objectively state that random elements aren't 'fun', you can't be objective about gaming philosophy. Stop trying to do so.

 

[Zankoku]

I don't think his goal is a family-friendly game, so much as one where he's trying to avoid the typical fighter game occurrence of the weaker player getting absolutely demolished by the stronger one. There are many different ways of accomplishing this.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I don't think his goal is a family-friendly game, so much as one where he's trying to avoid the typical fighter game occurrence of the weaker player getting absolutely demolished by the stronger one. There are many different ways of accomplishing this.

Doesn't get the point.

 

[Zankoku]

Right, his point is that we shouldn't be trying to change Sakurai's perspective on game design and I'm pointing out that he's not exactly accurate on his assessment of Sakurai's perspective - I'm pretty sure that this is relevant.

As for certain random elements, some (or maybe only one) of them do actually go against general game design philosophy.

 

[Tien2500]

Tien should write it. He knows what the **** he's talking about.

Except that I'm really not a part of the competitive community. I'm more like a really really avid casual player . I actually liked Brawl a lot better than Melee, so I don't think I'd make a good representative for you guys.

However, if someone was to compile some sort of well researched list on what the community wants, I'd be happy to make a letter of those suggestions.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Right, his point is that we shouldn't be trying to change Sakurai's perspective on game design and I'm pointing out that he's not exactly accurate on his assessment of Sakurai's perspective - I'm pretty sure that this is relevant.

As for certain random elements, some (or maybe only one) of them do actually go against general game design philosophy.

His point is that Sakurai is capable of catering towards a competitive community, he just doesnt want to.

I don't really understand why people think we can teach Sakurai a thing about game design. If he'd want to create something to cater the Smash community he would be capable of doing so.

 

[Zankoku]

That's funny, though... I don't see anywhere that he says he's explicitly against making the game competitive.

 

[Teran]

There is however a quote out there somewhere where Sakurai explicity states that Melee was to difficult, most likely referencing the skill gap that is made apparent by delving deeper into game mechanics., which of course take a lot of skill to learn how to utilise optimally.

Sakurai may not be opposed to competitiveness per se, but he is definitely opposed to Smash having a large amount of technical depth that is difficult to master, which is what massively separates the good from the not so good.

 

[Lord Chair]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158790

not entirely agree with gimpyfish' analysis, but sakurai's tone has been rather family friendly so far

 

[Zankoku]

I've been more focused on the Iwata Asks article discussing Brawl
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/ssbb/0/0
wherein Sakurai mentions that Wii seems to be more targeted toward a casual audience but he felt that he wanted to develop Brawl independently from that sort of approach.

 

[JOE!]

Why does nobody ever bring up that "Melee was too hard" may be referring to how he spent almost literally 24/7 on it from start to finish?


but what do I know it's 4:30 in the mornign @_@

 

[Teran]

I've been more focused on the Iwata Asks article discussing Brawl
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/ssbb/0/0
wherein Sakurai mentions that Wii seems to be more targeted toward a casual audience but he felt that he wanted to develop Brawl independently from that sort of approach.

Brawl may have had a lot of the complex mexhanics that made Melee competitive taken out, but Smash itself is still the dream package for a die hard Nintendo fan. When I got 64 and when I bought Melee, I bought it because it lumped all my favvourite Nintendo characters together in a piece of ultimate fanservice. Brawl still kept true to that and honestly did it even moreso than Melee. So Sakurai's point about that was still valid.

Why does nobody ever bring up that "Melee was too hard" may be referring to how he spent almost literally 24/7 on it from start to finish?


but what do I know it's 4:30 in the mornign @_@

Nah he meant it with specific reference to the difficulty in playing the game.

 

[Strong Badam]

Quite. Neither was made with any intention of being competitively balanced. And MK wasn't intentionally derped for anti-competitiveness, just like Fox wasn't intentionally derped to be completely broken. They both ended up the way they are by chance. Only thing you can really point fingers at is tripping.

you're trolling/kidding yourself if you still believe this in 2011. melee was NOT an accident

other than that I'm mostly done in this topic, it seems to have taken a positive turn

 

[Reizilla]

Melee was a hell of an accident.

 

[Teran]

Most great things are accidents tbh.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

lol

ITT: TRIPPING RRRARAAAAAGHHGHHGHGSGH TRIPPING GARGARGARGAR