excellent post.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
AlphaZealot the greatest T.O. to date UPDATED June 30 see post 122
- Thread starter Takeover1806
- Start date
Convo on tournament scheduling
[21:52] omegawhitemage: hey
[21:52] AlphaZealot: yo
[21:52] omegawhitemage: i've got a really quick question for ya
[21:52] AlphaZealot: whats up
[21:53] omegawhitemage: i've been trying to make the schedule for cat5
[21:53] omegawhitemage: and i'm trying to adjust things for melee
[21:54] omegawhitemage: and i was wondering how, if at all, you'd adjust the schedule for melee?
[21:55] omegawhitemage: cuz i haven't been working closely with the community at all for a while
[21:55] AlphaZealot: i would still assume 30 minutes rounds
[21:55] AlphaZealot: better safe then sorry and melee doesnt run that much faster then brawl
[21:56] AlphaZealot: plus they still use 8 minute timers and you should plan for max match length
[21:57] omegawhitemage: alright, that makes things easy
[21:57] omegawhitemage: then i guess if you were looking to shave time off a tournament, where would you start without compromising the experience
[21:59] AlphaZealot: what size/time frame are you looking at?
[22:00] AlphaZealot: (size bracket)
[22:00] omegawhitemage: well, we're expecting between 200-300 people
[22:00] omegawhitemage: and we've got 3 days reserved
[22:01] omegawhitemage: but we've got singles, crews and teams for 2 games
[22:01] AlphaZealot: setups?
[22:01] omegawhitemage: not sure, at least 32 per game
[22:01] omegawhitemage: and we're planning for pools
[22:02] AlphaZealot: okay
[22:03] AlphaZealot: what size pools you thinking?
[22:03] omegawhitemage: 8 man most likely
[22:03] AlphaZealot: thats prob the first place to cut down on time
[22:03] AlphaZealot: dont do more then 6 people per pool
[22:04] AlphaZealot: 8 man pool has 28 matches to be played
[22:04] AlphaZealot: 6 man pool has only 15 matches to be played
[22:04] AlphaZealot: so only 2 less people but roughly half the matches
[22:05] AlphaZealot: you will need more pools (obviously) but you will offset a lot of time vs an 8-man pool system
[22:06] omegawhitemage: so provided we have enough set-ups it should reduce the time pretty significantly
[22:06] AlphaZealot: correct
[22:06] omegawhitemage: i can't believe i didn't think of that
[22:06] AlphaZealot: also you prob know this but the number of pools needs to be a power of 2
[22:07] omegawhitemage: yeah
[22:07] omegawhitemage: so for 200ish people
[22:07] omegawhitemage: 6 per pool
[22:07] omegawhitemage: i'm looking at
[22:09] omegawhitemage: hmm
[22:09] AlphaZealot: roughly 32 pools
[22:09] omegawhitemage: yeah, i'd have to add some people here and there
[22:09] AlphaZealot: you could run 1 or 2 seven man pools, make sure to give those pools an extra tv
[22:09] AlphaZealot: (or tw)
[22:10] omegawhitemage: so a 6 man pool is 15 matches
[22:10] omegawhitemage: how many in a 7?
[22:10] AlphaZealot: seven man pool is 21
[22:10] omegawhitemage: and 8 is 28
[22:10] omegawhitemage: ok
[22:11] omegawhitemage: how would you deal with people playing both melee and brawl? since i'm going to have to run them almost simultaneously
[22:11] AlphaZealot: that is a tough one
[22:11] AlphaZealot: probably a couple options
[22:11] AlphaZealot: during pools
[22:12] AlphaZealot: i would suggest doing 16 pools per game at a time
[22:12] AlphaZealot: (instead of 32)
[22:13] AlphaZealot: so you give each pool a lot of tvs and if you know someone is in melee/brawl then you can coordinate their pools accordingly
[22:14] AlphaZealot: it would probably be wise that when you are making pools you also condense the people in both games into just a couple pools so they are easy to keep track up (so like no more then 8 pools)
[22:14] AlphaZealot: 8 should be enough to seperate them appropriately but also allow you easy scheduling for players in both games
[22:14] omegawhitemage: ah that's a good idea
[22:15] omegawhitemage: yeah there shouldn't be more than that many people who play both game
[22:15] AlphaZealot: i mean you gotta figuree ballpark only 20-40
[22:15] AlphaZealot: likely though closer to just 20 people
[22:15] AlphaZealot: which should split nicely along 8 pools
[22:16] omegawhitemage: that will make things much simpler
[22:16] AlphaZealot: as for brackets
[22:17] AlphaZealot: if you are following a schedule
[22:17] AlphaZealot: the toughest thing is gonna be getting through the early rounds without losing much time
[22:17] AlphaZealot: alternating winners/losers rounds smartly
[22:18] AlphaZealot: and starting one tournament 30 minutes after the start of another will help
[22:18] AlphaZealot: so like take m2k
[22:18] AlphaZealot: he plays his round 1 for brawl
[22:18] AlphaZealot: then when he finishes that there is round 1 for melee going on while losers round 1 for brawl happens
[22:18] AlphaZealot: (that may not actually be the most efficient way to do it but you get the idea)
[22:19] AlphaZealot: typically you want to run the 1st two rounds of winners before doing the 1st round of losers
[22:19] AlphaZealot: really its gonna come down to figuring out how to manage m2k
[22:19] omegawhitemage: that's what i've been thinking
[22:19] omegawhitemage: he's kinda...a pain
[22:19] AlphaZealot: cause he is gonna be doing both tournaments, and he is gonna go deep in both brackets
[22:19] AlphaZealot: but you can also assume he will be in winners for awhile
[22:20] AlphaZealot: which will help figuring out the most efficient schedule (just try to coordinate brawl winenrs and melee winners on opposite half-hours
[22:21] AlphaZealot: he's gonna have to understand he cant be given 10 minute warm ups between switching games
[22:21] AlphaZealot: cause thats gonna add up quickly
[22:22] omegawhitemage: i'll likely contact him sometime soon and let hom know he's going to need to get used to switching quickly
[22:23] AlphaZealot: in terms of saving other time
[22:23] AlphaZealot: id consider running doubles up to like top 8, then saving those matches and starting pools
[22:24] AlphaZealot: then you can sorta do a hodge-podge of things as the tournament in singles gets down to top 16/8ish, so you could run whatever doubles matches could be run (that don't involve someone in singles) and vice versa
[22:27] omegawhitemage: how would you handle doing crews for two games on the same day?
[22:29] AlphaZealot: whats the time frame you are looking at?
[22:29] AlphaZealot: like
[22:29] AlphaZealot: you have 3 days
[22:29] AlphaZealot: but do you have 12 hours each day
[22:29] AlphaZealot: or more
[22:29] AlphaZealot: or less
[22:29] omegawhitemage: umm, lemme check
[22:31] omegawhitemage: looks like 10am to midnight
[22:31] AlphaZealot: every day?
[22:31] omegawhitemage: actually 9am to midnight saturday and sunday
[22:31] omegawhitemage: then 9am to 5pm monday
[22:32] AlphaZealot: is monday a school day or anything or is this going on during a holiday?
[22:32] omegawhitemage: columbus day weekend
[22:32] omegawhitemage: so most schools have it off
[22:33] AlphaZealot: k
[22:33] AlphaZealot: well first priority is getting the actual tournament done
[22:34] AlphaZealot: though because that is a first priority, it is often the reason we havent seen good crew battles at anything except FC
[22:34] omegawhitemage: yeah crews is my biggest focus right now
[22:34] omegawhitemage: because the melee legends battle has gotten a crazy amount of hype
[22:35] AlphaZealot: okay
[22:35] AlphaZealot: what are your crew sizes?
[22:36] omegawhitemage: 8man
[22:36] omegawhitemage: 32 stock for melee
[22:37] AlphaZealot: okay
[22:37] AlphaZealot: let me do some quick math
[22:38] AlphaZealot: im assuming you dont plan on doing pools for doubles?
[22:38] omegawhitemage: nope
[22:38] omegawhitemage: i've never seen the point
[22:39] AlphaZealot: k
[22:39] AlphaZealot: so we can assume 128 teams max
[22:43] AlphaZealot: okay
[22:43] AlphaZealot: assuming 32 tvs per game
[22:43] AlphaZealot: assuming pools are in two rounds of 16
[22:43] AlphaZealot: with 6 people each
[22:46] AlphaZealot: that will take roughly 6 hours to complete pools
[22:46] AlphaZealot: 3 hours per round of 16 pools
[22:47] AlphaZealot: thats assuming 15 matches each go to game 3 and each last 8 minutes
[22:47] AlphaZealot: but you should probably throw another hour on that estimate to be safe
[22:47] omegawhitemage: ok sounds good
[22:48] AlphaZealot: so lets say you run pools on saturday
[22:48] AlphaZealot: starting at 10AM
[22:48] AlphaZealot: ern
[22:48] AlphaZealot: actually we need to talk about registration
[22:48] AlphaZealot: how will that be handled?
[22:48] AlphaZealot: online only? or will there be some live stuff?
[22:48] omegawhitemage: both
[22:48] omegawhitemage: online with scaling vewnue fee
[22:48] omegawhitemage: then in person
[22:49] omegawhitemage: for people who neglected
[22:49] omegawhitemage: but that's going to hopefully be small scale
[22:49] AlphaZealot: yea but it will still throw a bit of a kink in things
[22:50] AlphaZealot: id allow for just an hour of registration really, then an hour for last-minute setup/seeding
[22:50] AlphaZealot: really you shouldnt need that long
[22:50] AlphaZealot: but its always good to be safe
[22:51] AlphaZealot: but lets say you allow the entire morning for that stuff
[22:51] AlphaZealot: so you have from 9am-11:30am for registration, then you announce pools at noon
[22:51] AlphaZealot: pools will be finished at approximately 7pm
[22:52] AlphaZealot: how many advance from pools?
[22:53] omegawhitemage: well i'm assuming 2 rounds of pools
[22:53] omegawhitemage: but that will depend on turnout
[22:53] omegawhitemage: so if one round, 4 advance
[22:53] omegawhitemage: 2 rounds, 2 advance
[22:57] AlphaZealot: hmm
[22:59] omegawhitemage: if there's a problem with that let me know, i need this to run as quickly as possible
[23:00] AlphaZealot: im just thinking
[23:00] omegawhitemage: so if i can change that i'm open to suggestions
[23:00] omegawhitemage: ok
[23:00] AlphaZealot: always assume worse case
[23:00] AlphaZealot: so assume you get the attendence for running 2 rounds worth of pools
[23:02] AlphaZealot: if you advance 3 people out of each pool in round 1 pools
[23:02] AlphaZealot: then you will be down to 96 people
[23:02] AlphaZealot: which makes 16 pools of 6 people perfectly
[23:04] AlphaZealot: so
[23:04] AlphaZealot: its 7pm on saturday
[23:04] AlphaZealot: you just finished round 1 pools
[23:04] AlphaZealot: you need to make round 2 pools
[23:04] AlphaZealot: which would likely take ~1 hour
[23:06] AlphaZealot: to be most efficient at this point
[23:06] AlphaZealot: you should probbaly run doubles
[23:06] AlphaZealot: or crews
[23:07] omegawhitemage: well i know crews needs ot be run and done on saturday, becauise that's going to be the hype machine for singles
[23:08] AlphaZealot: then i think your best bet
[23:08] AlphaZealot: is doing crews after round 1 singles is done
[23:08] omegawhitemage: ??
[23:08] AlphaZealot: then starting round 2 pools at 10am on sunday
[23:09] omegawhitemage: so round one of pools, then crews?
[23:09] AlphaZealot: yea if you want crews on saturday there isnt another option
[23:09] AlphaZealot: plus everyone will be there cause no one is eliminated yet (doubles still has to happen) and everyone will be there cause you will have just done round 1 pools
[23:10] AlphaZealot: that also gives you the night to plan/make round 2 pools and the doubles brackets for both games
[23:10] omegawhitemage: true true
[23:11] AlphaZealot: so
[23:11] AlphaZealot: sunday
[23:11] AlphaZealot: you have finished crews
[23:11] AlphaZealot: and you have finished round 1 pools
[23:11] AlphaZealot: you still have to complete doubles and round 2 pools + singles bracket
[23:11] omegawhitemage: how long od you think crews will take/
[23:12] AlphaZealot: its just regional crews?
[23:12] AlphaZealot: or the "legends" thing?
[23:12] omegawhitemage: brawl will be regional
[23:13] omegawhitemage: the legends thing, ill ask jake really quickly
[23:13] omegawhitemage: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=269448
[23:15] AlphaZealot: is that being run in addition to crews or in place of crews, and for which game? (just melee?)
[23:15] omegawhitemage: just melee
[23:15] omegawhitemage: that's the melee crew battle
[23:15] omegawhitemage: bralw will be regional likely
[23:15] AlphaZealot: okay
[23:16] AlphaZealot: well you should limit it to 4 regions
[23:16] AlphaZealot: a single crew battle of 8 people in brawl you should assume will take an hour
[23:16] AlphaZealot: and you can run two crew battles at a time
[23:16] AlphaZealot: so roughly 3 hours to complete brawl crews if its just 4 crews of 8 people
[23:16] AlphaZealot: call it 4 hours
[23:17] AlphaZealot: as for the legends
[23:17] AlphaZealot: it looks like the same logistics
[23:18] AlphaZealot: 4 "teams" (crews) of 8 people
[23:18] AlphaZealot: more or less the same logistics
[23:18] AlphaZealot: so assume that will also take 3-4 hours to complete
[23:18] omegawhitemage: would you run them at the same time
[23:18] AlphaZealot: so you should be able to complete both melee and brawl crews in plenty of time on saturday night since you wil have from 7pm-midnight to do it
[23:18] AlphaZealot: preferably dont run that at the same time
[23:18] AlphaZealot: but you should get both events done on saturday night
[23:19] AlphaZealot: you have 5 hours to play with
[23:19] AlphaZealot: you could probbaly run the first round of crew battles for brawl, then a round of melee, then brawl, and so forth
[23:19] AlphaZealot: alternating
[23:20] AlphaZealot: that would take approximately 6 hours which you technically dont have (you have 5 hours)
[23:20] AlphaZealot: but
[23:20] AlphaZealot: you could double up one of the round and run them at the same time
[23:20] AlphaZealot: in which case id suggest doing the first round of crews (4 seperate battles, 2 for brawl 2 for melee) at 7pm
[23:20] AlphaZealot: then after that happens you can alternate between games
[23:21] AlphaZealot: might be a bit tight, but it isn't really a problem cause if you get in a pinch you just run both games at the same time again
[23:22] AlphaZealot: onto sunday
[23:22] AlphaZealot: run round 2 pools
[23:22] AlphaZealot: for both games
[23:22] AlphaZealot: should take approximatley 4 hours
[23:22] AlphaZealot: and you can advance 3 people out of that round into 48 man brackets
[23:23] AlphaZealot: (or 2 people into 32 man brackets)
[23:23] AlphaZealot: but more or less you can get round 2 pools done by 2pm on sunday (people get warm up from 9-10am, start the tournament at 10am sharp)
[23:23] AlphaZealot: that gives you the rest of sunday (10 hours) to run 128 team brackets for doubles
[23:24] AlphaZealot: the goal is to run it through as far as you can
[23:24] AlphaZealot: then save top 4/8 for monday
[23:24] AlphaZealot: so monday you gotta run top 32/48 man brackets and roughly losers quarters and onward in doubles
[23:25] omegawhitemage: that's manageable i think
[23:25] AlphaZealot: yeap
[23:25] AlphaZealot: its also a pretty good progression
[23:25] AlphaZealot: gives everyone something to do for sunday
[23:25] omegawhitemage: ed worlds
[23:25] AlphaZealot: and saturday
[23:25] omegawhitemage: whoops
[23:26] omegawhitemage: that should workl
[23:26] AlphaZealot: monday is just the really, really good people still in and everyone else can do friendlies
[23:26] omegawhitemage: ok, that works
[23:26] omegawhitemage: let's see
[23:27] omegawhitemage: how do you prioritize matches on recording set ups?
[23:27] AlphaZealot: on the ffly
[23:27] AlphaZealot: lol
[23:27] AlphaZealot: but
[23:27] AlphaZealot: the rule of thumb i try to follow at mlg for feature stations
[23:27] AlphaZealot: is
[23:27] AlphaZealot: (there are a couple)
[23:28] AlphaZealot: priority goes to: -players well known in the region your in
[23:28] AlphaZealot: -interesting character match ups
[23:28] AlphaZealot: -possible rematches/rivarlies if there are any (say if m2k has to fight armada or something, i know armada wont be there but thats an example)
[23:29] omegawhitemage: well we're trying to get him there....but yeah, not looking good
[23:29] AlphaZealot: -then just the best possible players you can find that are closely matched (aka not m2k vs most early rounds in brawl cause it wouldn't be close)
[23:29] omegawhitemage: haha yeah, 2-0 vs everyone
[23:30] AlphaZealot: thats about it
[23:30] AlphaZealot: dont let someone delay a match to play on a recording set up/projector/etc
[23:31] omegawhitemage: haha, i'm such a **** about time management at tournaments, not as bad as plank but close
[23:31] AlphaZealot: you have to be
[23:31] AlphaZealot: otherwise people will just play friendlies the whole tournament and not even bother with their actual matches
[23:31] omegawhitemage: i'm pretty sure jason hates me for that, but efficiency is key
[23:32] AlphaZealot: ehh
[23:32] AlphaZealot: i get on him for it to
[23:32] AlphaZealot: i think he sorta expects it
[23:32] omegawhitemage: he must, otherwise he'd never play
[23:37] omegawhitemage: well, i think you've solved almost every issue i was anticipating for this tournament
[23:37] omegawhitemage: thank so much for your input
[23:37] AlphaZealot: your welcome
[23:37] omegawhitemage: i'll likely have other questions at some point, assuming you don't mind
[23:38] AlphaZealot: yea
[23:38] AlphaZealot: go ahead
[23:38] AlphaZealot: whenever lol
[23:38] omegawhitemage: awesome, thanks az, youre a ****in genius, haha
[23:39] AlphaZealot: its all good, i like to help
[23:39] AlphaZealot: do you care if i post this convo in a thread for others to read?
[23:39] omegawhitemage: nope not at
[21:52] omegawhitemage: hey
[21:52] AlphaZealot: yo
[21:52] omegawhitemage: i've got a really quick question for ya
[21:52] AlphaZealot: whats up
[21:53] omegawhitemage: i've been trying to make the schedule for cat5
[21:53] omegawhitemage: and i'm trying to adjust things for melee
[21:54] omegawhitemage: and i was wondering how, if at all, you'd adjust the schedule for melee?
[21:55] omegawhitemage: cuz i haven't been working closely with the community at all for a while
[21:55] AlphaZealot: i would still assume 30 minutes rounds
[21:55] AlphaZealot: better safe then sorry and melee doesnt run that much faster then brawl
[21:56] AlphaZealot: plus they still use 8 minute timers and you should plan for max match length
[21:57] omegawhitemage: alright, that makes things easy
[21:57] omegawhitemage: then i guess if you were looking to shave time off a tournament, where would you start without compromising the experience
[21:59] AlphaZealot: what size/time frame are you looking at?
[22:00] AlphaZealot: (size bracket)
[22:00] omegawhitemage: well, we're expecting between 200-300 people
[22:00] omegawhitemage: and we've got 3 days reserved
[22:01] omegawhitemage: but we've got singles, crews and teams for 2 games
[22:01] AlphaZealot: setups?
[22:01] omegawhitemage: not sure, at least 32 per game
[22:01] omegawhitemage: and we're planning for pools
[22:02] AlphaZealot: okay
[22:03] AlphaZealot: what size pools you thinking?
[22:03] omegawhitemage: 8 man most likely
[22:03] AlphaZealot: thats prob the first place to cut down on time
[22:03] AlphaZealot: dont do more then 6 people per pool
[22:04] AlphaZealot: 8 man pool has 28 matches to be played
[22:04] AlphaZealot: 6 man pool has only 15 matches to be played
[22:04] AlphaZealot: so only 2 less people but roughly half the matches
[22:05] AlphaZealot: you will need more pools (obviously) but you will offset a lot of time vs an 8-man pool system
[22:06] omegawhitemage: so provided we have enough set-ups it should reduce the time pretty significantly
[22:06] AlphaZealot: correct
[22:06] omegawhitemage: i can't believe i didn't think of that
[22:06] AlphaZealot: also you prob know this but the number of pools needs to be a power of 2
[22:07] omegawhitemage: yeah
[22:07] omegawhitemage: so for 200ish people
[22:07] omegawhitemage: 6 per pool
[22:07] omegawhitemage: i'm looking at
[22:09] omegawhitemage: hmm
[22:09] AlphaZealot: roughly 32 pools
[22:09] omegawhitemage: yeah, i'd have to add some people here and there
[22:09] AlphaZealot: you could run 1 or 2 seven man pools, make sure to give those pools an extra tv
[22:09] AlphaZealot: (or tw)
[22:10] omegawhitemage: so a 6 man pool is 15 matches
[22:10] omegawhitemage: how many in a 7?
[22:10] AlphaZealot: seven man pool is 21
[22:10] omegawhitemage: and 8 is 28
[22:10] omegawhitemage: ok
[22:11] omegawhitemage: how would you deal with people playing both melee and brawl? since i'm going to have to run them almost simultaneously
[22:11] AlphaZealot: that is a tough one
[22:11] AlphaZealot: probably a couple options
[22:11] AlphaZealot: during pools
[22:12] AlphaZealot: i would suggest doing 16 pools per game at a time
[22:12] AlphaZealot: (instead of 32)
[22:13] AlphaZealot: so you give each pool a lot of tvs and if you know someone is in melee/brawl then you can coordinate their pools accordingly
[22:14] AlphaZealot: it would probably be wise that when you are making pools you also condense the people in both games into just a couple pools so they are easy to keep track up (so like no more then 8 pools)
[22:14] AlphaZealot: 8 should be enough to seperate them appropriately but also allow you easy scheduling for players in both games
[22:14] omegawhitemage: ah that's a good idea
[22:15] omegawhitemage: yeah there shouldn't be more than that many people who play both game
[22:15] AlphaZealot: i mean you gotta figuree ballpark only 20-40
[22:15] AlphaZealot: likely though closer to just 20 people
[22:15] AlphaZealot: which should split nicely along 8 pools
[22:16] omegawhitemage: that will make things much simpler
[22:16] AlphaZealot: as for brackets
[22:17] AlphaZealot: if you are following a schedule
[22:17] AlphaZealot: the toughest thing is gonna be getting through the early rounds without losing much time
[22:17] AlphaZealot: alternating winners/losers rounds smartly
[22:18] AlphaZealot: and starting one tournament 30 minutes after the start of another will help
[22:18] AlphaZealot: so like take m2k
[22:18] AlphaZealot: he plays his round 1 for brawl
[22:18] AlphaZealot: then when he finishes that there is round 1 for melee going on while losers round 1 for brawl happens
[22:18] AlphaZealot: (that may not actually be the most efficient way to do it but you get the idea)
[22:19] AlphaZealot: typically you want to run the 1st two rounds of winners before doing the 1st round of losers
[22:19] AlphaZealot: really its gonna come down to figuring out how to manage m2k
[22:19] omegawhitemage: that's what i've been thinking
[22:19] omegawhitemage: he's kinda...a pain
[22:19] AlphaZealot: cause he is gonna be doing both tournaments, and he is gonna go deep in both brackets
[22:19] AlphaZealot: but you can also assume he will be in winners for awhile
[22:20] AlphaZealot: which will help figuring out the most efficient schedule (just try to coordinate brawl winenrs and melee winners on opposite half-hours
[22:21] AlphaZealot: he's gonna have to understand he cant be given 10 minute warm ups between switching games
[22:21] AlphaZealot: cause thats gonna add up quickly
[22:22] omegawhitemage: i'll likely contact him sometime soon and let hom know he's going to need to get used to switching quickly
[22:23] AlphaZealot: in terms of saving other time
[22:23] AlphaZealot: id consider running doubles up to like top 8, then saving those matches and starting pools
[22:24] AlphaZealot: then you can sorta do a hodge-podge of things as the tournament in singles gets down to top 16/8ish, so you could run whatever doubles matches could be run (that don't involve someone in singles) and vice versa
[22:27] omegawhitemage: how would you handle doing crews for two games on the same day?
[22:29] AlphaZealot: whats the time frame you are looking at?
[22:29] AlphaZealot: like
[22:29] AlphaZealot: you have 3 days
[22:29] AlphaZealot: but do you have 12 hours each day
[22:29] AlphaZealot: or more
[22:29] AlphaZealot: or less
[22:29] omegawhitemage: umm, lemme check
[22:31] omegawhitemage: looks like 10am to midnight
[22:31] AlphaZealot: every day?
[22:31] omegawhitemage: actually 9am to midnight saturday and sunday
[22:31] omegawhitemage: then 9am to 5pm monday
[22:32] AlphaZealot: is monday a school day or anything or is this going on during a holiday?
[22:32] omegawhitemage: columbus day weekend
[22:32] omegawhitemage: so most schools have it off
[22:33] AlphaZealot: k
[22:33] AlphaZealot: well first priority is getting the actual tournament done
[22:34] AlphaZealot: though because that is a first priority, it is often the reason we havent seen good crew battles at anything except FC
[22:34] omegawhitemage: yeah crews is my biggest focus right now
[22:34] omegawhitemage: because the melee legends battle has gotten a crazy amount of hype
[22:35] AlphaZealot: okay
[22:35] AlphaZealot: what are your crew sizes?
[22:36] omegawhitemage: 8man
[22:36] omegawhitemage: 32 stock for melee
[22:37] AlphaZealot: okay
[22:37] AlphaZealot: let me do some quick math
[22:38] AlphaZealot: im assuming you dont plan on doing pools for doubles?
[22:38] omegawhitemage: nope
[22:38] omegawhitemage: i've never seen the point
[22:39] AlphaZealot: k
[22:39] AlphaZealot: so we can assume 128 teams max
[22:43] AlphaZealot: okay
[22:43] AlphaZealot: assuming 32 tvs per game
[22:43] AlphaZealot: assuming pools are in two rounds of 16
[22:43] AlphaZealot: with 6 people each
[22:46] AlphaZealot: that will take roughly 6 hours to complete pools
[22:46] AlphaZealot: 3 hours per round of 16 pools
[22:47] AlphaZealot: thats assuming 15 matches each go to game 3 and each last 8 minutes
[22:47] AlphaZealot: but you should probably throw another hour on that estimate to be safe
[22:47] omegawhitemage: ok sounds good
[22:48] AlphaZealot: so lets say you run pools on saturday
[22:48] AlphaZealot: starting at 10AM
[22:48] AlphaZealot: ern
[22:48] AlphaZealot: actually we need to talk about registration
[22:48] AlphaZealot: how will that be handled?
[22:48] AlphaZealot: online only? or will there be some live stuff?
[22:48] omegawhitemage: both
[22:48] omegawhitemage: online with scaling vewnue fee
[22:48] omegawhitemage: then in person
[22:49] omegawhitemage: for people who neglected
[22:49] omegawhitemage: but that's going to hopefully be small scale
[22:49] AlphaZealot: yea but it will still throw a bit of a kink in things
[22:50] AlphaZealot: id allow for just an hour of registration really, then an hour for last-minute setup/seeding
[22:50] AlphaZealot: really you shouldnt need that long
[22:50] AlphaZealot: but its always good to be safe
[22:51] AlphaZealot: but lets say you allow the entire morning for that stuff
[22:51] AlphaZealot: so you have from 9am-11:30am for registration, then you announce pools at noon
[22:51] AlphaZealot: pools will be finished at approximately 7pm
[22:52] AlphaZealot: how many advance from pools?
[22:53] omegawhitemage: well i'm assuming 2 rounds of pools
[22:53] omegawhitemage: but that will depend on turnout
[22:53] omegawhitemage: so if one round, 4 advance
[22:53] omegawhitemage: 2 rounds, 2 advance
[22:57] AlphaZealot: hmm
[22:59] omegawhitemage: if there's a problem with that let me know, i need this to run as quickly as possible
[23:00] AlphaZealot: im just thinking
[23:00] omegawhitemage: so if i can change that i'm open to suggestions
[23:00] omegawhitemage: ok
[23:00] AlphaZealot: always assume worse case
[23:00] AlphaZealot: so assume you get the attendence for running 2 rounds worth of pools
[23:02] AlphaZealot: if you advance 3 people out of each pool in round 1 pools
[23:02] AlphaZealot: then you will be down to 96 people
[23:02] AlphaZealot: which makes 16 pools of 6 people perfectly
[23:04] AlphaZealot: so
[23:04] AlphaZealot: its 7pm on saturday
[23:04] AlphaZealot: you just finished round 1 pools
[23:04] AlphaZealot: you need to make round 2 pools
[23:04] AlphaZealot: which would likely take ~1 hour
[23:06] AlphaZealot: to be most efficient at this point
[23:06] AlphaZealot: you should probbaly run doubles
[23:06] AlphaZealot: or crews
[23:07] omegawhitemage: well i know crews needs ot be run and done on saturday, becauise that's going to be the hype machine for singles
[23:08] AlphaZealot: then i think your best bet
[23:08] AlphaZealot: is doing crews after round 1 singles is done
[23:08] omegawhitemage: ??
[23:08] AlphaZealot: then starting round 2 pools at 10am on sunday
[23:09] omegawhitemage: so round one of pools, then crews?
[23:09] AlphaZealot: yea if you want crews on saturday there isnt another option
[23:09] AlphaZealot: plus everyone will be there cause no one is eliminated yet (doubles still has to happen) and everyone will be there cause you will have just done round 1 pools
[23:10] AlphaZealot: that also gives you the night to plan/make round 2 pools and the doubles brackets for both games
[23:10] omegawhitemage: true true
[23:11] AlphaZealot: so
[23:11] AlphaZealot: sunday
[23:11] AlphaZealot: you have finished crews
[23:11] AlphaZealot: and you have finished round 1 pools
[23:11] AlphaZealot: you still have to complete doubles and round 2 pools + singles bracket
[23:11] omegawhitemage: how long od you think crews will take/
[23:12] AlphaZealot: its just regional crews?
[23:12] AlphaZealot: or the "legends" thing?
[23:12] omegawhitemage: brawl will be regional
[23:13] omegawhitemage: the legends thing, ill ask jake really quickly
[23:13] omegawhitemage: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=269448
[23:15] AlphaZealot: is that being run in addition to crews or in place of crews, and for which game? (just melee?)
[23:15] omegawhitemage: just melee
[23:15] omegawhitemage: that's the melee crew battle
[23:15] omegawhitemage: bralw will be regional likely
[23:15] AlphaZealot: okay
[23:16] AlphaZealot: well you should limit it to 4 regions
[23:16] AlphaZealot: a single crew battle of 8 people in brawl you should assume will take an hour
[23:16] AlphaZealot: and you can run two crew battles at a time
[23:16] AlphaZealot: so roughly 3 hours to complete brawl crews if its just 4 crews of 8 people
[23:16] AlphaZealot: call it 4 hours
[23:17] AlphaZealot: as for the legends
[23:17] AlphaZealot: it looks like the same logistics
[23:18] AlphaZealot: 4 "teams" (crews) of 8 people
[23:18] AlphaZealot: more or less the same logistics
[23:18] AlphaZealot: so assume that will also take 3-4 hours to complete
[23:18] omegawhitemage: would you run them at the same time
[23:18] AlphaZealot: so you should be able to complete both melee and brawl crews in plenty of time on saturday night since you wil have from 7pm-midnight to do it
[23:18] AlphaZealot: preferably dont run that at the same time
[23:18] AlphaZealot: but you should get both events done on saturday night
[23:19] AlphaZealot: you have 5 hours to play with
[23:19] AlphaZealot: you could probbaly run the first round of crew battles for brawl, then a round of melee, then brawl, and so forth
[23:19] AlphaZealot: alternating
[23:20] AlphaZealot: that would take approximately 6 hours which you technically dont have (you have 5 hours)
[23:20] AlphaZealot: but
[23:20] AlphaZealot: you could double up one of the round and run them at the same time
[23:20] AlphaZealot: in which case id suggest doing the first round of crews (4 seperate battles, 2 for brawl 2 for melee) at 7pm
[23:20] AlphaZealot: then after that happens you can alternate between games
[23:21] AlphaZealot: might be a bit tight, but it isn't really a problem cause if you get in a pinch you just run both games at the same time again
[23:22] AlphaZealot: onto sunday
[23:22] AlphaZealot: run round 2 pools
[23:22] AlphaZealot: for both games
[23:22] AlphaZealot: should take approximatley 4 hours
[23:22] AlphaZealot: and you can advance 3 people out of that round into 48 man brackets
[23:23] AlphaZealot: (or 2 people into 32 man brackets)
[23:23] AlphaZealot: but more or less you can get round 2 pools done by 2pm on sunday (people get warm up from 9-10am, start the tournament at 10am sharp)
[23:23] AlphaZealot: that gives you the rest of sunday (10 hours) to run 128 team brackets for doubles
[23:24] AlphaZealot: the goal is to run it through as far as you can
[23:24] AlphaZealot: then save top 4/8 for monday
[23:24] AlphaZealot: so monday you gotta run top 32/48 man brackets and roughly losers quarters and onward in doubles
[23:25] omegawhitemage: that's manageable i think
[23:25] AlphaZealot: yeap
[23:25] AlphaZealot: its also a pretty good progression
[23:25] AlphaZealot: gives everyone something to do for sunday
[23:25] omegawhitemage: ed worlds
[23:25] AlphaZealot: and saturday
[23:25] omegawhitemage: whoops
[23:26] omegawhitemage: that should workl
[23:26] AlphaZealot: monday is just the really, really good people still in and everyone else can do friendlies
[23:26] omegawhitemage: ok, that works
[23:26] omegawhitemage: let's see
[23:27] omegawhitemage: how do you prioritize matches on recording set ups?
[23:27] AlphaZealot: on the ffly
[23:27] AlphaZealot: lol
[23:27] AlphaZealot: but
[23:27] AlphaZealot: the rule of thumb i try to follow at mlg for feature stations
[23:27] AlphaZealot: is
[23:27] AlphaZealot: (there are a couple)
[23:28] AlphaZealot: priority goes to: -players well known in the region your in
[23:28] AlphaZealot: -interesting character match ups
[23:28] AlphaZealot: -possible rematches/rivarlies if there are any (say if m2k has to fight armada or something, i know armada wont be there but thats an example)
[23:29] omegawhitemage: well we're trying to get him there....but yeah, not looking good
[23:29] AlphaZealot: -then just the best possible players you can find that are closely matched (aka not m2k vs most early rounds in brawl cause it wouldn't be close)
[23:29] omegawhitemage: haha yeah, 2-0 vs everyone
[23:30] AlphaZealot: thats about it
[23:30] AlphaZealot: dont let someone delay a match to play on a recording set up/projector/etc
[23:31] omegawhitemage: haha, i'm such a **** about time management at tournaments, not as bad as plank but close
[23:31] AlphaZealot: you have to be
[23:31] AlphaZealot: otherwise people will just play friendlies the whole tournament and not even bother with their actual matches
[23:31] omegawhitemage: i'm pretty sure jason hates me for that, but efficiency is key
[23:32] AlphaZealot: ehh
[23:32] AlphaZealot: i get on him for it to
[23:32] AlphaZealot: i think he sorta expects it
[23:32] omegawhitemage: he must, otherwise he'd never play
[23:37] omegawhitemage: well, i think you've solved almost every issue i was anticipating for this tournament
[23:37] omegawhitemage: thank so much for your input
[23:37] AlphaZealot: your welcome
[23:37] omegawhitemage: i'll likely have other questions at some point, assuming you don't mind
[23:38] AlphaZealot: yea
[23:38] AlphaZealot: go ahead
[23:38] AlphaZealot: whenever lol
[23:38] omegawhitemage: awesome, thanks az, youre a ****in genius, haha
[23:39] AlphaZealot: its all good, i like to help
[23:39] AlphaZealot: do you care if i post this convo in a thread for others to read?
[23:39] omegawhitemage: nope not at
Solid Jake
The Arcanum
AZ is far too good of a TO.
TheKiest
Smash Champion
More from Ohio's Assistant TO... (and soon coming out of retirement, heh)
# of Matches in Pool of Size N:...
(N-1) + (N-2) + (N-3)..... 2 + 1 = Total amount of matches.
Thus for an 8 man pool (as said above)...
7 + 6 + 5 +4 +3 + 2 + 1 = 28
7 Man Pool:
6 + 5 +4 +3 + 2 + 1 = 21
6 Man Pool:
5 +4 +3 + 2 + 1 = 15
5 Man Pool:
4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 10
4 Man Pool:
3 + 2 + 1= 6
# of Matches in Pool of Size N:...
With B Byes in the bracket.
(N-1)*2 - (2 * B) = Total Matches.
(Plus one additional IF the 2nd Set of Grand finals has to be played again)
Normal is best of 3.
Finals are best of 5.... usually.
8 Man Bracket: 14 Matches (11 Normal, 3 Finals)
16 Man Bracket: 30 Matches (27 Normal, 3 Finals)
32 Man Bracket: 62 Matches (59 Normal, 3 Finals)
64 Man Bracket: 126 Matches (123 Normal, 3 Finals)
128 Man Bracket: 254 Matches (251 Normal, 3 Finals)
256 Man Bracket: 510 Matches (507 Normal, 3 Finals)
(I can show you how I get the formula after work if people really want to know...)
MLG Columbus had 250 Entrants, meaning 6 Byes in a 256 Man Bracket.
510 - 12 = 498 Matches (495 Normal, 3 Finals)
Good Stuff AZ and Refs!
As far as Byes go, each player that would have filled in a Bye would have played 2 matches. This is why you subtract 2 from the total.
Again, with all of those numbers, there could be one more "Final" if the Grand finals goes to Set 2. (Loser Finalist beats Winner Finalist.)
Most already know this but....
Average Match Time
I usually assume this...
5-7 Minutes for Stage Strike/Port debate/CP decision
4-8 Minutes for first game.
4-8 Minutes for second game.
4-8 Minutes for 3rd game.
It also helps to know your players/region.
For example: Any player who is using Sonic/Samus/Other Characters that have a hard time killing due to lack of Kill moves, usually go over the 6 minute mark.
Players that are campy, will usually go for time. Again past the 6 minute mark.
Thus...
BEST CASE:
13 Minutes per Match. (Players Stage strike quickly, plus game goes roughly 4-5 minutes. AKA when M2k plays against me. Only 2 Games)
WORST CASE:
31 Minutes per Match. (Players Camp and go to time, or close to it. All 3 games are played. Maybe even Sudden Death happens).
AVERAGE CASE:
23 Minutes.
Hope this helps...
# of Matches in Pool of Size N:...
(N-1) + (N-2) + (N-3)..... 2 + 1 = Total amount of matches.
Thus for an 8 man pool (as said above)...
7 + 6 + 5 +4 +3 + 2 + 1 = 28
7 Man Pool:
6 + 5 +4 +3 + 2 + 1 = 21
6 Man Pool:
5 +4 +3 + 2 + 1 = 15
5 Man Pool:
4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 10
4 Man Pool:
3 + 2 + 1= 6
# of Matches in Pool of Size N:...
With B Byes in the bracket.
(N-1)*2 - (2 * B) = Total Matches.
(Plus one additional IF the 2nd Set of Grand finals has to be played again)
Normal is best of 3.
Finals are best of 5.... usually.
8 Man Bracket: 14 Matches (11 Normal, 3 Finals)
16 Man Bracket: 30 Matches (27 Normal, 3 Finals)
32 Man Bracket: 62 Matches (59 Normal, 3 Finals)
64 Man Bracket: 126 Matches (123 Normal, 3 Finals)
128 Man Bracket: 254 Matches (251 Normal, 3 Finals)
256 Man Bracket: 510 Matches (507 Normal, 3 Finals)
(I can show you how I get the formula after work if people really want to know...)
MLG Columbus had 250 Entrants, meaning 6 Byes in a 256 Man Bracket.
510 - 12 = 498 Matches (495 Normal, 3 Finals)
Good Stuff AZ and Refs!
As far as Byes go, each player that would have filled in a Bye would have played 2 matches. This is why you subtract 2 from the total.
Again, with all of those numbers, there could be one more "Final" if the Grand finals goes to Set 2. (Loser Finalist beats Winner Finalist.)
Most already know this but....
Average Match Time
I usually assume this...
5-7 Minutes for Stage Strike/Port debate/CP decision
4-8 Minutes for first game.
4-8 Minutes for second game.
4-8 Minutes for 3rd game.
It also helps to know your players/region.
For example: Any player who is using Sonic/Samus/Other Characters that have a hard time killing due to lack of Kill moves, usually go over the 6 minute mark.
Players that are campy, will usually go for time. Again past the 6 minute mark.
Thus...
BEST CASE:
13 Minutes per Match. (Players Stage strike quickly, plus game goes roughly 4-5 minutes. AKA when M2k plays against me. Only 2 Games)
WORST CASE:
31 Minutes per Match. (Players Camp and go to time, or close to it. All 3 games are played. Maybe even Sudden Death happens).
AVERAGE CASE:
23 Minutes.
Hope this helps...
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Id just like to say, DO NOT GROUP PPL who play both games into close pools to keep track of them.
That possibly puts them at a disadvantage, they now have a greater chance of having a jason in their pool. You have to keep it random to keep it 100% fair.
Otherwise pretty dam good advice.
That possibly puts them at a disadvantage, they now have a greater chance of having a jason in their pool. You have to keep it random to keep it 100% fair.
Otherwise pretty dam good advice.
Are there other options to solve the problem of pools for each game being run at the same time?
The only other option is the explicit instruction that players doing both games need to play their pools matches all in a row and they need to be the first to play. That might accomplish the same task but it would be more of a headache in terms of making sure it actually happens.
The only other option is the explicit instruction that players doing both games need to play their pools matches all in a row and they need to be the first to play. That might accomplish the same task but it would be more of a headache in terms of making sure it actually happens.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Have one per pool, and have them play at least half their matches early. Don't let them play Melee until their Brawl games or done (or vice versa if you're doing Melee pools and whatever). Tell this in advance, and DQ them quickly if they don't comply and aren't timely.
ADHD
Smash Hero
Alex strife is way better 
hungrybox
Smash Legend
AlphaZealot's a beast.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
its just a hassle. comes with running more than 1 game. I honestly don't have a solution.
I just know that arranging the pools could look really bad in some cases. idk do a poll and see how the community feels.
it solves 1 problem but creates another. imo that select 40 is not worth potentially compromising the integrity of the tournament just to save a little bit of time.(probably a notable amount)
TheKiest
Smash Champion
Most regions I think do:
55
30
15
or
60
30
10
But for 5, Ohio and some MW do (I might be wrong about other regions NOT doing this payout):
1st: 48%
2nd: 22%
3rd: 14%
4th: 8%
5th: 4%
5th: 4%
As for the double elimination bracket part, just download Tournament Organizer found on www.allisbrawl.com
That program also can calculate your payouts.
Just run some "practice" or "for fun" tournaments to see what it is like.
Double elimination in a nut shell is player play against each other in a bracket until all but one person has been defeated twice.
55
30
15
or
60
30
10
But for 5, Ohio and some MW do (I might be wrong about other regions NOT doing this payout):
1st: 48%
2nd: 22%
3rd: 14%
4th: 8%
5th: 4%
5th: 4%
As for the double elimination bracket part, just download Tournament Organizer found on www.allisbrawl.com
That program also can calculate your payouts.
Just run some "practice" or "for fun" tournaments to see what it is like.
Double elimination in a nut shell is player play against each other in a bracket until all but one person has been defeated twice.
TheKiest
Smash Champion
5th place is tied in double elimination brackets.
If you really want to, you could have the players break the tie by playing against each other.
http://allisbrawl.com/tio/
If you really want to, you could have the players break the tie by playing against each other.
http://allisbrawl.com/tio/
pinkchukks
Smash Cadet
na/na/na/na/na
Last edited:
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
AJP is the greatest TO
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
do you enjoy sucking up to all the europeans?
X1-12
Smash Champion
actually he's not, he's probably not even the best in Europe
First international tourney of the country
Beds
showers (plenty)
Served hot food
Housing for EVERY out of country player for 2 nights either side of tourney
Tourney finished with plenty of time to spare
Venue very cheap for 3 days with near shops etc
Palpi
Smash Hero
A good TO wouldn't DQ top players.
X1-12
Smash Champion
so top players can cheat?
Palpi
Smash Hero
yes they can.
M@v
Subarashii!
in b4 mlg raleigh haters....oh wait.
Palpi
Smash Hero
Yes indeed. haha =]
RATED
Smash Lord
-_____- fail post is fail, if you were to be late you would be DQ and no one will ***** about it...
that whole "AZ DQ top players" get on my nerves, AZ has my whole respect as doing so like is SUPPOSED to be done. No one ( not even M2k) should get Special treatment cuz they place good.
Solid Jake
The Arcanum
At a grassroots event I would DQ them, and this is MLG. I players cant make it on the scheduled time for a professional league then they deserve to be DQued. Brett farve doesn't miss his ride for the super bowl.
Palpi
Smash Hero
get trolled =/
Gea
Smash Master
I respect TOs that have the balls to DQ someone for legit reasons.