AlphaZealot the greatest T.O. to date UPDATED June 30 see post 122

[AlphaZealot]

Yea, and there you would know better then me because I have not been to those centers yet. Unless...

Do you happen to know which venue was for ChuDat's Dojo: Yellowbelt? It was a LAN center I just do not remember the name.

Also, Tants venue (the hunting club) was not bad.

 

[II Bolt II]

I never attended the Dojo's, I heard it was very crammed and I'm a fairly large guy. lol

Weren't those venue's $10 as well? I believe Chu's venue was a PC only Lan Center.. I could be mistaken, but I know those don't get nearly as much attention as an Xbox360 Lan Center.

 

[omegawhitemage]

Interesting new ruleset, I'll be stealing the player conduct section. Since there's a lot of posts and I'm not looking through them all, why exactly is M2K banned? I find it hilarious for the record. I've never seen anyone besides myself ban anyone before.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

AZ. I have a few questions in terms of scheduling.

Namely, what's a good way to figure how long pools SHOULD take and such.

Trying to come up with a potential schedule for my next tourney. But I refuse to not leave time for people to get food. Cause a tourney where you can't eat is always a long and more aggravating tourney.

 

[AlphaZealot]

omega: read my blog on AiB or the results thread of my last wings and brew tournament (wings and brew V).

scheduling:
You assume each set will last 24 minutes
You figure out how many sets need to occur in a pool.
You figure out how many tvs you will have

You can then estimate how long it will take to complete the pool with that information.

A pool of 3 will have 3 matches
A pool of 4 will have 6 matches
A pool of 5 will have 10 matches
A pool of 6 will have 15 matches
A pool of 7 will have 21 matches
A pool of 8 will have 28 matches

For all intents and purposes a pool of 6 is your ideal number in terms of giving people a decent number of matches (5 sets, minimum 10 games) while not taking forever to complete. Adding just 2 people to a pool of 6 almost doubles the number of matches and in turn the length of time.

The general rule of thumb of a pool of 8 with 2 tvs will take 3.5-4 hours to complete, whereas a pool of 6 with 2 tvs will take about 2-2.5 hours to complete. Ideally you should plan for all the pools to be running at the same time with 2 tvs each and 6 people per pool, in which case block out about 3 hours for your tournament just to do pools + another half hour after that to collect results and create a bracket.

Don't let people play all their matches in a row since that will not optimize the setups, especially since as some pools finish new TV's open up and you can send people to those tvs to play (I tell people to play two matches in a row then sit and break and let someone else do the same). So while someone who plays all their matches in a row thinks they are speeding and helping the pool, the reality is that they are essentially preventing you from maximizing the use of new TV's in the later periods of pool play.

---
Also don't let people get food or at least not until they are eliminated. Instead, find a local pizza place, get their number, and buy pizzas yourself. Many pizza places do large pizzas for $5 a pizza. So if you buy 5 pizzas with 8 slices each and sell those pizzas at $1 a slice (which is completely reasonable) then you turn a $25 investment into $40. Not only are you saving people time/energy by handling the food yourself and they are still getting a cheap meal since most people will only eat 2-3 slices of pizza (so just 2-3$ for lunch or dinner, not bad) but you are also saving your tournament time because people won't disappear to get food. Along the same lines of reasoning you should try to go to cosco or something where you can buy soda for cheap. You can usually get it in bulk like 48 cans at around 20 cents a can and you can resell it at your tournament for 50 cents or 75 cents, again, totally reasonable prices and you get to make a small profit cause you did the leg work. The deal here is essentially assume 2 sodas for every attendee. Any sodas you don't sell just save for the next tournament you run so it is not wasted. You can do the the same things with candy/chip too.

EDIT: I know it looks like I'm writing a ton but this stuff comes so easily these posts literally take just like 2-3 minutes, lol. Sorry for the lengths.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I don't find them overly long. Just fascinating. As one of the only "good" TOs in New England left(Note I am only not including the Mages because as far as I can tell they seem to be out of it. The Mages are easily the best TOs in New England), I find any and all information interesting.

I'm not much of a TO. I'm someone who's older than most of the region and used to taking on responsibility and just kinda started doing it. And TIO makes it really simple to do a bare bones tourney. But since the first one I've been working on the specifics of making things run smoothly and quickly.

Next tourney is the first one I'm trying to do anything big with, so I'm really trying to work ont he specific math and scheduling parts since I can't do the vague thing with the next one.

Also, I'm assuming the use of the word Match was the same as Set in parts of that answer.

EDIT: And the hassle of handling food service(ie Pizza and Soda) just became a hell of a lot more feasible with the post you just made than I ever thought it could be. I always assumed the overall hassle of it would make it not worth time. Just gotta get a rough estimate on how much would be enough/too much/not enough.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I usually just designate someone, typically a friend who doesn't play the game but is willing to help, to handle food purchase and sale to attendees. There are some misc. expense that are assocaited with doing this, like buying 50 paper plates I think costs about $3, and tipping the delivery dude 10% on a $25 purchase is another, basically $3. However, the ability to make profit for yourself and in a fair and unintruding way should be obvious. I've since delegated the tasks of food sales to the venue that is letting me run the tournament as an extra way for them to make profit so I don't have to deal with the hassle, but if you have a venue where the owners/people letting you have the tournament won't even be present then its a really good way to make yourself an extra $50 or so for spending the Saturday running the tournament. Again, this is for just your local 30 person or so events. I'm currently not even attempting to hold events larger then 30-40 people so its not a big deal to me. Back when that was the goal (aka keep trying to see how many people from all over we could get) though I think we made almost $300 off food/candy/pizza/soda sales at BOMB4 when we had 100+ people show up. So obviously as the size of your tournament goes up your potential for profit does as well, but so does your expenses that $300 was split 4 ways between me/my crew.

I'm more concerned at this moment with developing the local Columbus Ohio and the Ohio competition. We have made huge strides in the last year alone and I think we are now one of the more active states.

Ohio is basically got the advantage of having 3 major metro areas (columbus, cinci, cleveland) and we essentially have a venue in each of them. Plus a smaller area west of cbus called springfield. Rotating between these four areas we get a tournament pretty much every week, sometimes two in a weekend. It is also growing the scene locally at each of those areas by having a venue that gets used. This model can be copied all over the place to. Its not just about attracting the whole state so much as people who live within 20-30 minutes of your venue. If you can get clusters of players at major parts of the state it makes having tournaments/getting players interested a lot easier. Then every once in awhile (every month) you try to get a 50-60 person event, and then every 2-3 months a 100 person event, and this is all just mostly ohio people. lol. Springfield has got those events basically figured out they are a very effective crew when and good at running tournaments. Rajam just went through the Ohio Circuit results from 11 tournaments all in Ohio in a 15 week period and we had almost 200 unique players, more then 90% of which were from the state of Ohio.

 

[JPOBS]

i couldnt agree more with the idea about running pools.

if you want your community to grow, you have to make new members, or people outside the top 4-5 enjoy the tourny as well or else they wont return to future tournies.

playing pools gives you a good chance to play a good number of people and its better to play (and lose) 3-4 sets and come last in your pool than go straight to bracket and get ****ed over and lose first round both times.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I intro'd the idea of running pools at my next event.

Immeadiate reaction from two players.

"If it's not a national it's pointless."

I was amazed.

They're convined that it's a waste of time, won't increase attendance and is pointless if you're gunna have 30-50 people. Sometimes I honestly don't understand people.

 

[AlphaZealot]

The very fact that the players brought up national tournaments means they are not new players nor are they bad. If a player who consistently goes 1-2, 2-2, 0-2 in brackets says that I will actually be amazed. I'm not amazed when experienced players say it because even I don't really like pools that much cause I usually breeze through it and get tired. However I recognize that I'm in that upper 10% of people at tournaments and ideally you design your tournament for everyone.

People who don't win money ever like to play more matches to get a better experience. (90% of people who will want to attend a tournament)
People who do win money like to play less matches so winning their money is easier/less tedious. (10% of people who will want to attend a tournament)

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

The part that amazed me was when i brought up the point of it increasing turn out, due to lower level players being able to get more for their dollar and more expierence.

They both claimed that the idea is ludicrous. I'm planning to run it with pools anyway, I was just really confused how they didn't see the point of it. How it makes things far more worth while for mid level/new players.

 

[Exalador]

This is a great thread for T.Os guys... haven't read the whole thing yet, little short on time right now. We (in the Dutch community) are actually trying to get the ball rolling again on melee as well, and trying to stimulate some growth in the brawl community. We actually bought a number of TVs for the official dutch tournament series, so we don't have to rely on players etc. to bring entire setups, just consoles.

The starting investment cost a little and the first tournament took a little hit moneywise, but starting now we are gonna make back the money we invested, which will mean low costs for players, a steady ammount of TVs, and room for some investments in improving the community, by also getting recording setups for the community etc.

the SAME tvs... which is a major issue in europe... not all TVs are 60hz here, so its really important to have good TVs...by having a lot the same model, and 2 or 3 bigger ones for important matches (like finals etc) players won't wait to be able to play on a specific TV etc...

I'm gonna read the whole thread including replies etc asap, there are a lot of great ideas in this thread from what i saw so far.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Read this for your circuit, copy ideas/formats/things you like: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246510

Also note this: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...0.438586,-81.727295&spn=4.205421,9.876709&z=7

I put all the events up on Google Maps so a person who can only go to 1-2 events in a season can check that map and see where/when and what is the closest tournament to then in the next 2-3 months.

Also so you can see just how many people get money via top 5 payouts (this is through 11 events in a 15 week time period):

Combined (Total Prize Money Through Eleven Events: $5,890)
1. Mew2King - $1,112.7
2. Lain - $584.60
3. Blue Rogue - $574.05
4. AlphaZealot - $510.30
5. Judge - $457
6. Kel - $449.50
7. Anther - $358.40
8. Infern - $248.50
9. Overswarm - $227.30
10. Y.b.M. - $220.60
11. Pierce - $150.50
12. Argentstew - $135.25
13. Shugo - $104.90
14. Nope - $85.50
15. Smash64 - $85
16. DJiskascribble - $70
17. Capem - $67.90
18. Fonz - $62
19. Lou - $52.10
20. Byaa! - $47.50
21. Ithrowthings - $45
22. KB - $44.70
23. Suyon - $37
24. Quivo - $34.50
25. SFG - $22
26. King - $18.50
27. BBoy - $14.50
28. Sliq - $10.40
29. Beegs - $5
30. Xtc - $4.50
31. Bead - $4.50

Without Top 5 payouts that list would probably be about 1/2 as long.

I've already begun scheduling the next OC.

 

[Winnar]

Amazing read. Alpha, I hope you don't mind but I plan on asking you some questions over AIM or in this thread sometime soon. I'm just about to try starting a smash community in Mississippi...and I have some questions you could probably help me with :D

 

[AlphaZealot]

Prob in this thread is best, I'm typically not on AIM. Plus if it is common question the answer might help other people.

 

[Winnar]

Alright fair enough. I just got done reading through the rest of the thread (good **** everyone :D )

The situation with getting a smash scene in MS is kind of tricky. As it stands I know of only...4 or 5 people within an hour of me who play smash. We're all at the same college, which is nice, but we're all really looking to either start creating a smash scene here or quitting tournaments altogether. We love tourneys and all, but the most consistent tourneys are kind of small and are 2 and a half hours away...which is kind of ugh.

Anyway! I started thinking about how I would even start a smash scene in MS...it seems like in all the other areas I've lived in there has been at least a collection of players, but here there is like...no one. Since you're really old school I figured you might have some useful experience/advice for starting a scene from nothing.

Here's my plan:

I think 3 or 4 of us prefer melee over brawl, but brawl is way more popular/accessible so I think the focus will probably be brawl. If there are any melee players they might check out a brawl tournament sooner or later. Anyway, we'll probably advertise around campus/facebook mainly for the first tourney just to test the waters and see if we get anyone. There will be SWF/AiB threads too, but...that won't be too useful for all the smashers who don't even know about them, so yeah.

Also for the venue I haven't really looked into anything yet, but I think there are a lot of places on campus we could host it at, probably for free.

So...that's about as far as I've thought it through at this point. Any tips/pointers/glaring holes?

Oh and a bit of trivia, I was at chu's xmas biweekly in 08. I move all the time and at one point I ended up like 15 minutes from chu's XD I guess I probably saw you there.

Edit - Oh one other thing I guess is that I can entice people with free or cheap pizza/drinks <_<

I guess follow up is really important. Getting contact info, telling them to go to SWF or AiB or w/e, and hanging out later just for smashfests. I think facebook would be really, really useful for that. I might get people to sign up with their whole names so I can find them on facebook and stuff.

I could also possibly host a tournament in my apartment complex's common house place...hm...kind of small and also lacks the whole "able to walk to venue" appeal which is kind of a big thing at our campus.

 

[Nope]

Yay AZ! Also for Ohio being so awesome and running tons of tournaments and having lots of setups. It makes things so much easier

 

[Dekar173]

Dayum.

Ohio's tourney scene makes me jealousss D: lol.



Great thread AZ. I'm definitely going to be putting a lot more work into running my tournaments, mainly foodwise in order to better cater my scene.

Thanks.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Good read! Bigups to AZ, Chu, and any other successful tourney holder!

 

[HAT]

ROFL

10LaughingOutLouds

um.

yea, actually, this is all legit. i just thought all of this information was basic to tournament organizers.

well, good job AZ for at least vocalizing all this stuff.

 

[L__]

The entire thread was a good read.

 

[BetaZealot]

I'm gonna host tourneys maybe.

hella BZ combo

 

[Vyse]

These are all things I've tried, and I think this thread should make me want to try even harder to go by these best practices when it comes to tournament running.

Especially the bit about Melee/Brawl. From now on I'm going to seperate the two games completely.

 

[Winnar]

ROFL

10LaughingOutLouds

um.

yea, actually, this is all legit. i just thought all of this information was basic to tournament organizers.

well, good job AZ for at least vocalizing all this stuff.

Well that's all fine and good for experienced TO's, but for anyone who is new to the idea of being a TO...this is a godsend.

 

[Samochan]

Has anyone else hosted a tournament in youth center before? In finland (least in oulu that supports youth activity) we have these youth centers which can be rented for absolutely no fee for the whole weekend if the timetable allows for it. That includes nightovers as well. These youth centers come with 1-2 tv's that can be used for playing, mattresses and possibly blankets as well, sofas, chairs and lotsa tables. Also equipped with moderate to large gymnasium with lotsa plugs and ofc kitchen with appliances and huge fridges. Free electricity, water, cable tv, biljard table, magazines, shower, heck even soda machine and wireless sometimes. If you can locate a youth center at your area that's not shady in some ways, I recommend checking it out if it's possible for renting. If nothing else, they should be well equipped.

 

[Vlade]

I've organised tournaments in Perth, Australia and there was this one time where I tried running pools.

Thing is, almost no-one was satisfied with them because they said they were bored after pools were over. When exam-time came round people left and didn't really come back and now we're looking at turnouts of 20-25 people. Is it still worth running pools, and what can I say to convince them that pools is worthwhile?

 

[TP]

ROFL

10LaughingOutLouds

um.

yea, actually, this is all legit. i just thought all of this information was basic to tournament organizers.

well, good job AZ for at least vocalizing all this stuff.

I find it hilarious that a TO from Maryland would say this is common knowledge when the whole thread has been blasting MD/VA for not following these guidelines. I guess some parts of the region are better than others?


Vlade, why were people bored after pools? Shouldn't the brackets have started up soon after they were over? And, if you look at things in a number-of-matches-per-dollar-paid point of view, pools are the ultimate example of something being "worthwhile" to everyone involved.

 

[Isatis]

I find it hilarious that a TO from Maryland would say this is common knowledge when the whole thread has been blasting MD/VA for not following these guidelines. I guess some parts of the region are better than others?

I think he was bashing this, which is every week or two:

Venue: $10

Price
10$ Venue Fee

Pricing:
$10.00 Venue Fee

$10 Venue

On the other hand...

Prices:

$5 Venue Fee

+1 internet to HAT

 

[KevinM]

<------------ Ran pools at every mass madness he helped host.

Get at the kid

 

[TP]

+1 to HAT indeed.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

please write the guide AZ it would help a lot.

Include a section on attracting new people out of nothing as well, this is the biggest problem for my city we have a nice venue a lan center that only charges 5$ for the whole day and allows you to play any game you want while your at the tournament in the other set ups and its next to cicis pizza. Even so we've never managed to get over 20 people.

 

[Vyse]

please write the guide AZ it would help a lot.

Include a section on attracting new people out of nothing as well, this is the biggest problem for my city we have a nice venue a lan center that only charges 5$ for the whole day and allows you to play any game you want while your at the tournament in the other set ups and its next to cicis pizza. Even so we've never managed to get over 20 people.

This +1000 times.

Thought really, the answer is to spam posters everywhere.

 

[Overswarm]

AZ is a good TO. Kishes were better for nationals, but AZ is good at lotsa stuff.

Actually, with both AZ and I in the MW we basically cover every concievable perspective on TOing you need. Every region I've targetted and said "this group needs to grow" has become standard tournament entrants while those that resisted any influence have squandered and become tiny pocket communities with little travel in and out. Every tournament that AZ has targetted with his prize payout has had more people happy when they leave, more people willing to travel for money (meaning they bring others with them), and more people saying "I ALMOST made it into the money". I rarely host events myself, and generally just help. AZ has hosted only a small handful of tournaments, most of them WaB tournaments with capped # of entrants. We have other good TOs in the midwest that do great things, like Nope and Kiest, but I think every region needs people like AZ to just kind of "fine tune" the tournaments that already exist and someone like me to make broader strokes and get regions involved.

If you haven't convinced him to make his thread yet, make him do it.

Good TOs help even when they're not hosting tournaments.

 

[Takeover1806]

wow this thread needs more activity for other TO's..
AZ where you at, you haven't been on aim for years lls
you still thinkin about a guide or what??

 

[AlphaZealot]

I'm still thinking about writing it its just been a busy few months for me. I saw tants thread which I would recommend people read cause he has some ideas that I didn't mention:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264935

 

[CT Chia]

any recommendations for getting people to want to do pools? like at a small event some people love the idea but then other ppl just complain about how long it will take (even though it shouldnt take that much longer with eliminating i suppose). any ideas besides telling em to suck it up? lol. theyl prob end up liking it anyway as they do it.

what would you suggest is the min # of entrants to do pools?

 

[Overswarm]

any recommendations for getting people to want to do pools? like at a small event some people love the idea but then other ppl just complain about how long it will take (even though it shouldnt take that much longer with eliminating i suppose). any ideas besides telling em to suck it up? lol. theyl prob end up liking it anyway as they do it.

what would you suggest is the min # of entrants to do pools?

Minimum number of entrants for pools: 16

Or maybe 12.


Basically, 3 pools or more.


The point of pools is twofold.

The first is that everyone gets to be seeded properly in bracket, and there's no "well this guy's good". It's all seeding and location.

The second is more important, and it's that everyone gets a ton of games and no one is hogging stations. These aren't friendlies either; they matter.

My best memories of smash are getting just one hit away from Dope (like 10,000 times) in Melee and just baaaaarely losing to him. If you take out pools, you don't always get to fight those top players when you're a new player without spending obscene amounts of money to do so. You also get to test your skill against less skilled people, which is a big confidence booster.

It's really easy to be new to Brawl and go 0-2 in bracket and say "...I suck." and then quit. It's harder to go 0-2 in pools, and even harder not to have a good time in pools.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Chibo there are two groups of people who don't want to do pools
Group 1: The upper 5-10% of the players there. Basically anyone in the top 5, maybe 10 of a state power ranking. This is because usually pools are boring to them and its sorta easy to 2-0 everyone but likewise you don't want to try so you may drop needless games cause you use alt characters or try new things etc. Anyways, this group doesn't want to play cause they can just as well get enough matches from the bracket and they want to simply get to the money rounds faster.
Group 2: The players who repeatedly attend tournaments and sometimes do well and sometimes don't, but generally they want to be in and out quickly so they don't want to have a format to prolong the tournament

Most people want pools. Especially the new players. The veterans aren't going to miss a tournament cause there are pools, but many new players or intermitant players would be more inclined to attend and return to tournaments if there are pools cause they get more matches.

Really, its as simple as this:
Assuming $20 for entering singles and doubles, in double elim you get a minimum of 4 games, lets say each game lasts the full 8 minutes.

You pay 62.5 cents per minute of play time if you are the worst player at a tournament with a double elimination for the singles and the doubles bracket.

Assuming $20 for entering singles and doubles and a 6 man pool (doubles double elim), then you get a minimum of 12 games (lets say each game is 8 minutes again).

You pay 20.83 cents per minute of play time if you are the worst player at a tournament with pools for singles and a double elimination bracket for doubles.

When you are talking about growth you talk about two things
-Keeping people coming back
-Bringing new people in

Using pools increases the likelihood of both of these events. New people aren't interested in show up at a tournament, going 2 and out, and feeling like they didn't get their money's worth. They are less likely to come back and give it another try if this happens.

Pools also offers other experiences. As OS noted some people really want to play good people but in all likelihood wouldn't if it were a double elim bracket. With pools there is typically 1 really good, marque player who other people look up to and actually want to play, not to win but simply to see how well they can do. Additionally, if pools are done right, then the whole pool should stick around each other and watch each others matches and talk and t should create a bonding experience then brings new people into the community quicker.

Ultimately it comes down to who you want to listen to. Do you want to listen to the <10% of people who simply want to take everyones money as quickly as possible (the people who will show up whether or not there are pools). Or do you want to listen to the 70-90% of people who show up for an experience with no expectation of winning, and more importantly, the new people within this group that shows up at each tournament. You don't get growth by listening to the first group, actually more often then not it will make your community shrink.

 

[CT Chia]

Yea I know a lot of the positives, but def thx for the layout OS and AZ. I still plan on doing pools regardless at my events, it definitely does more better than not (as you said listen to the 70-90% compared to 10%).

As for size of bracket and # of pools, I suppose just do pools if there's 16 or more entrants and eliminate down to a 16, 32, or 64 person bracket right? Say there's like 30 entrants, should I bother with a 24 person bracket (I personally hate these types of brackets) or eliminate down to 16? What if I get 32 entrants? Should I not eliminate anyone at all (lame time wise) or eliminate to 16/24?

People did definitely like paying out more places, that went nice.

 

[Overswarm]

Chibo, if you have 30 entrants, do pools with no elimination and do top 32 bracket with two byes.

Aim for the lowest level player.