Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[PhantomX]

And we're like 5 times faster in the air than MK... and you're planning to hit us? :\

 

[Zankoku]

In the case of MK's dair, I was unable to get it in time because his dair increases his range in an instant, not because he moves through the air quickly.

What does Wario have that instantly makes a hitbox with the range of an entire body length appear in front of him?

 

[Flamingo]

I'm pretty sure the Chain doesn't beat Bike PARTS such s the thrown wheels.

And we're like 5 times faster in the air than MK... and you're planning to hit us? :\

lolwut?

RangeMatters.

Oh yea... So does disjointedness.... (Sword vs leg anyone?)

 

[ssbbFICTION]

In the case of MK's dair, I was unable to get it in time because his dair increases his range in an instant, not because he moves through the air quickly.

What does Wario have that instantly makes a hitbox with the range of an entire body length appear in front of him?

LOOOOOOOOL. I think I know EXACTLY what does that hahahhahaha.

 

[Zankoku]

If Wario's breaking his own bike, that's when you put the chain away.

 

[Flamingo]

If Wario's breaking his own bike, that's when you put the chain away.

ya i guess.... unless it's already broken O.o haha. Idk, just happened to me today... btw chain rox in Brawl+

I tried Brawl+ today and it is really fun and different, I recommend everyone at least TRIES it. A lot of you won't like it though I know. Also, it is basically in Beta stage now, so give it some time.

 

[Villi]

teh waft..?

 

[DMG]

teh waft..?

Actually we have a glitch that literally makes a deformed copy of Wario, and mimics Wario's attack, but like 2 frames slower. Almost like having an IC partner. So we can Fsmash, and the deformed part will hit Shiek.

 

[Zankoku]

Well, there you go. Next time you see a Sheik using chain in tournament, go with that.

 

[MrEh]

teh waft..?

Meh, I'd rather save it for a surprise kill. Killing at 50% is fun. ^^

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I'll MM a sheik who says they can use this. We'll set the timer for 2 mintues and if you can hold me off with the chain for that time, then you'll get my money. If I can hit you out of chain, I'll laugh all the way to the baaaaaaank.

Sound good zzz?

 

[PhantomX]

If there are any Sheik's in the Southwest willing to take this bet, I offer myself up as well.

 

[Zankoku]

Despite what PK Nintendo said, dr. mario guy has been the most personable one here.

I could care less if you can force Sheik out of her chain, unless you are able to do it consistently and efficiently. No use finally landing some 15% aerial if you've taken like 50% in the process, and all.

 

[MrEh]

Wario could always just use his Down Taunt. The unmeasurable force released when Wario does his Down Taunt will shatter the pitiful chain. In fact, Sheik will probably be blinded in the process, resulting in a SD.


Stupidity aside though, Wario must have something he can do...

 

[Villi]

I'll MM a sheik who says they can use this. We'll set the timer for 2 mintues and if you can hold me off with the chain for that time, then you'll get my money. If I can hit you out of chain, I'll laugh all the way to the baaaaaaank.

Sound good zzz?

Next time I see you, I'll do it, Fiction. But my condition is 100 HP, 2 minutes. The person who dies or has less HP by the end loses. And Fiction you say best of 3...

1 dollah! yayuh. <3

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Despite what PK Nintendo said, dr. mario guy has been the most personable one here.

I could care less if you can force Sheik out of her chain, unless you are able to do it consistently and efficiently. No use finally landing some 15% aerial if you've taken like 50% in the process, and all.

I would be nice if you could accept the fact that you know very little about wario as a character.

 

[PhantomX]

Wario could always just use his Down Taunt. The unmeasurable force released when Wario does his Down Taunt will shatter the pitiful chain. In fact, Sheik will probably be blinded in the process, resulting in a SD.


Stupidity aside though, Wario must have something he can do...

We could just use that one AT DMG was talking about a couple posts back, the Doppel.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

How to **** an Ness

Yeah there's this really obnoxious Ness main on my friends list. Basically his entire playstyle consists of Fthrow>edgeguard attempts, PK fire spam, and PKT2 spam. The lag on wifi kind of helps him do this <_<. All it is really is just hoping to get lucky. It's not so hard to win, but I feel like I really should never lose.

But anyways, what does Sheik have over Ness that I can abuse? A lot of times, my gimp attempts will fail because the tail of PKT screws it up and then I get nailed by PKT2. I did land this really sick Nair gimp one time, though. General Matchup advice would be greatly appreciated. If not I can always **** him with Marth.

 

[Voyeur]

to the Wario's, think what you want and we'll think what we want.
All this theory BS and words on paper mean nothing, so lets for the sake of what can salvage as a healthy discussion instead of bitter remains of semi flaming and trolling posts, stop.

As you suggested earlier and leave it at that, let our physical prowess of the game one day present itself at a tournament or what not, like Genesis if any of you go. From what I see actually fiction is attending the Quiznos tournament that I plan to hit up, now I suck compared to you admittedly and am not that great as Sheik as Ryoko or Ankoku obviously, but I'll be repping her best I can there.


lag as in Wifi Lord? because.... everyone is just going to frown upon you playing on Wifi in the first place right now and say you form bad habits from it. But more needle camping on, who Ness? he's even easier then Lucas. Be aggressive as hell, Ftilt Locking, 2 to nair or Fthrows to nair, Fair locks to gimp.
Don't be scared to quickly approach while Ness is pulling off thunder, or try to snipe with a needle. You should be able to just SDI if you get trapped in PK fire.

Chain camp the edge, let your chain stay at the ledge but you stay hanging down, when you're attempting to edgehog their recovering Thunder. Study sound effects of when he says it and you literally can block him with your eyes close.

If his spike is giving you any troubles, then you simply haven't learned meteor canceling. Because at 70% I have survived Marth's Dair with a cancel, jump to Up+B. As for Wifi, learn to lead hit and do moves earlier then presented to beat the lag.

 

[Zankoku]

I would be nice if you could accept the fact that you know very little about wario as a character.

Uhh, okay. I'm sorry that I somehow implied I knew a lot about him. Unless you were guessing that I said that.

Actually, forget that. It's not like it would make a difference to me if you were nice or not.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I would be nice if you could accept the fact that you know very little about wario as a character.

I would be less arrogant if people displayed less blind, oblivious character fanboyism, but we can't win them all, can we?

We can't win them all.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Fine, does Shiek's chain camping counter MK then?

Yes, yes it does.

Sheik can't just sit there with her Chain out and win or be unapproachable, as much as you guys may wish this were so :\

With a percentage lead, yes, yes she can.

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik's Chain camping is harder to beat Meta Knight with because he has a disjointed long-ranged aerial that hits on frame 2. Wario attacks with his body. Why would you compare the two?

 

[Blistering Speed]

The two points weren't related, I was just adressing two misconceptions.

 

[DMG]

Alright, that's all I wanted to know. I'm surprised it took the Brawl community this long to find a counter to MK.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

You'll want to smear Agent Orange into your eyes if you manage to successfully Chain camp MK for any extended period of time to add any amount of color to the drudging stalemate you just created. It's a lot harder to maintain against MK than it sounds, and it's still ultimately a stalemate if you choose to camp it.

 

[-Mars-]

Despite what PK Nintendo said, dr. mario guy has been the most personable one here.

I could care less if you can force Sheik out of her chain, unless you are able to do it consistently and efficiently. No use finally landing some 15% aerial if you've taken like 50% in the process, and all.

This. I brought this up earlier but everyone somehow managed to ignore it.

Matters very little if you manage to hit Sheik out of the chain if i've taken half of your stock in the process.

 

[Snakeee]

I think the Ganon match up is a bit of a stretch. Of course it would be a very difficult match up for him, but I wouldn't say it's completely unplayable.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I would be less arrogant if people displayed less blind, oblivious character fanboyism, but we can't win them all, can we?

We can't win them all.

I'm not exactly sure what you guys are trying to say. I'm not saying that wario absolutely ***** sheik or anything. I'd probably say its around 55-45 wario. "oblivious character fanboyism"? I think I know plenty more what my character can do than you do thank you very much. Wario CAN get through the chain regardless of how much you want to tell me otherwise. Plz do not try to act like I'm just some random kid who doesn't know what hes talking about.

EDIT: @ankoku I have nothing against you guys personally and sheik is a good character, but saying that wario can't get past the chain is ludicrous.

 

[-Mars-]

I think the Ganon match up is a bit of a stretch. Of course it would be a very difficult match up for him, but I wouldn't say it's completely unplayable.

Talk to the Ganon mains then. Ganon can do absolutely nothing against the chain really and even without the chain he has to put up with needles, ftilt ****, he has nothing safe on shield, he has horrible OoS options, Sheik can crouch under like half his moveset, he has nothing to handle her pressure game, and he dies every time he goes offstage.

 

[PKNintendo]

Actually we have a glitch that literally makes a deformed copy of Wario, and mimics Wario's attack, but like 2 frames slower. Almost like having an IC partner. So we can Fsmash, and the deformed part will hit Shiek.

LOL. Funny man.

 

[PKNintendo]

Yeah there's this really obnoxious Ness main on my friends list. Basically his entire playstyle consists of Fthrow>edgeguard attempts, PK fire spam, and PKT2 spam. The lag on wifi kind of helps him do this <_<. All it is really is just hoping to get lucky. It's not so hard to win, but I feel like I really should never lose.

But anyways, what does Sheik have over Ness that I can abuse? A lot of times, my gimp attempts will fail because the tail of PKT screws it up and then I get nailed by PKT2. I did land this really sick Nair gimp one time, though. General Matchup advice would be greatly appreciated. If not I can always **** him with Marth.

Dear lord...

Maybe you should get better? If you suck that bad to lose to such a petty tactic, even if you CP to Marth, you'll lose.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Talk to the Ganon mains then. Ganon can do absolutely nothing against the chain really and even without the chain he has to put up with needles, ftilt ****, he has nothing safe on shield, he has horrible OoS options, Sheik can crouch under like half his moveset, he has nothing to handle her pressure game, and he dies every time he goes offstage.

yes. look at it this way:

sheik's moveset completely dominates ganondorf's. Before we even consider the chain, Sheik has a humongous advantage that most boards would write up as 80:20 or so. Sheik can force the approach, or sheik can approach herself. she can wrack up a lot of damage with strings that ganondorf really can't get out of, or she can play a completely reactive game in which she can counter anything ganon throws at her. As for kills, sheik doesn't really have a hard time comboing into a kill move, but, if she doesn't wanna do that, she can just as easily edgeguard ganondorf to death.

Now throw in the chain.

Sheik camps under a platform: Ganondorf has 0 moves that can get through. ZERO. Now, maybe, sheik will mess up eventually, but, at that point, ganondorf has already taken upwards of 70 damage just trying to get through the chain and there's nothing stoping sheik from camping again.

Once sheik gets the lead with one needle toss, it's over. Ganon cannot reassert his authority. Take an 80:20 or so matchup and add an exceptionally reliable stonewall that does massive damage and is incredibly hard to punish and you get the matchup # given by the boards.

 

[rathy Aro]

I'm not exactly sure what you guys are trying to say. I'm not saying that wario absolutely ***** sheik or anything. I'd probably say its around 55-45 wario. "oblivious character fanboyism"? I think I know plenty more what my character can do than you do thank you very much. Wario CAN get through the chain regardless of how much you want to tell me otherwise. Plz do not try to act like I'm just some random kid who doesn't know what hes talking about.

EDIT: @ankoku I have nothing against you guys personally and sheik is a good character, but saying that wario can't get past the chain is ludicrous.

I really don't know much about Wario, but leaving the chain out its still probably even if not in sheik's favor. Needles, well spaced bairs, ftilt, jab to grab, and of course grab release to up smash all help put the match in sheik's favor and give her an answer to most of what I know wario to have ( I really don't know much though).

With chain, lets be realistic even if Wario has a solid answer to chain its still an effective move against him. Even if you can't chain camp for 50 damage you can defiantly pull it out and give more damage then you'll take since wario has no way to "beat" chain, but just has ways to deal with it.

60-40.

Can you guys say what puts wario at an advantage. I'm only hearing why he doesn't get *****, which isn't much of an argument for saying he wins the matchup.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I really don't know much about Wario, but leaving the chain out its still probably even if not in sheik's favor. Needles, well spaced bairs, ftilt, jab to grab, and of course grab release to up smash all help put the match in sheik's favor and give her an answer to most of what I know wario to have ( I really don't know much though).

With chain, lets be realistic even if Wario has a solid answer to chain its still an effective move against him. Even if you can't chain camp for 50 damage you can defiantly pull it out and give more damage then you'll take since wario has no way to "beat" chain, but just has ways to deal with it.

60-40.

Can you guys say what puts wario at an advantage. I'm only hearing why he doesn't get *****, which isn't much of an argument for saying he wins the matchup.

jab to grab doesn't work, wario can up b out every time. Wario can space better than sheik and she's fairly easy to combo. Wario can mess with sheik's recovery and get off some good edgeguard kills. Sheik has a much harder time killing wario without the grab release u-smash, which is not nearly as good on a lot of stages and its only REALLY useful on FD. On FD I think sheik might have a slight advantage.

 

[Voyeur]

still *****ing in here? haha wow.

Theory bs. All if this of everyone is saying is just theory until put into practice.
I'll tell the rest of the Sheik's that Fiction is a good player, he won doubles and singles at a tournament with Dfs, Havok, Hall, DEHF, and other awesome players (bones <3)

and him and I were playing a warm up and I'm like no way good yet to even compare but we were testing out the Chain. Now to be fair and not bias let me go over this situation before I go into detail;

I literally just learned how/what Chain Locking is about a week ago (Right Sinking?) he taught me over Wifi and I just picked up the "how to do" of it being on the ground. I still don't know when to apply it effectively let alone how to control it so I can lock in the North, North West areas or get the tip to stun back to front to continue lock. Also the aerial dodging to a spot behind us like Ryoko said with proper movement of the chain, the tip stuns and causes a knock back to be directly infront of Sheik again where we will pick up with Chain locking from the ground until you SDI or the front tip knocks back.

Basically I'm super horrible atm, let alone with the chain and a technique I just learned and didn't practice after I felt I got it down.

Riding forward on his Bike, Fiction's Wario was knocked off successfully from it, lightly locked, and then the tip knocked him back. If I was better he should of been locked for a lot more time, and I also did not do the Short Hop chain.

His second attempt was to put the Bike up in a wheelie, which I failed at stopping because I kept the chain to the ground and the bike got my head, ending my chain.

I know though a better chain user, like Sinking or Ryoko, could properly and accurately control the chain to even prevent the bike's wheelie approach. So, now Wario has the other option that was brought up, what if he simply got off his bike to throw it right?

Not sure how long it takes for Wario to fall off his bike and then be able to throw up but I guess it would take more then enough time for Sheik to retract chain and follow up with what ever. But I know that if you are still caught in the act of using the chain, the thrown bike would get you out of it, I haven't been able to break it yet, or I'm sure the wheels would once it's destroyed, etc.

I'll try to get better with the Chain and then Fiction and I could perhaps keep testing this theory?
Once again, this is all words on paper (text) and it really means nothing because all in all it boils down to player skill, knowledge, etc. I think both of us are underestimating each other's characters because of some of rarity in Sheik users let alone Pros and that Wario is no push over.

I think you honestly can say it's going to be 50:50 or 55:45 (both ways) due to the actual stage, player knowledge of the opponent and character, sort of like when it comes to Luigi. Who beats us hard in aerial tactics, has projectiles (crappy but effective against chain camp) and so on.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I'm not exactly sure what you guys are trying to say. I'm not saying that wario absolutely ***** sheik or anything. I'd probably say its around 55-45 wario. "oblivious character fanboyism"? I think I know plenty more what my character can do than you do thank you very much. Wario CAN get through the chain regardless of how much you want to tell me otherwise. Plz do not try to act like I'm just some random kid who doesn't know what hes talking about.

EDIT: @ankoku I have nothing against you guys personally and sheik is a good character, but saying that wario can't get past the chain is ludicrous.

The only reason I would see anyone get overly defensive about theory smashing (for all the worth it could be) is if there was a niggling doubt at the back of your mind that, just maybe, one could know more about something as silly as the Chain than something as sillier as Wario's utter lack of good disjointed hitboxes. Or it could just be that your claims for Wario aren't as infallible/effective as you think they might be, and apparently the world will end or something if that happens.

I'm not trying to act like you're a random who doesn't know what he's talking about, I flat out AM acting that way because fallacious blanket statements and claims are just itching to be refuted and cut apart with all damage going to the poster. That and you're overeager and pushing the buttons of those kinds of people is all too easy and fun... mostly because, get this, your style of debate is laughable.

Theory Brawl ping-pong is about as productive as playing the actual game, effectively summarized by C WUT I DID THAR? bouncing between two mirrors.

 

[DMG]

jab to grab doesn't work, wario can up b out every time. Wario can space better than sheik and she's fairly easy to combo. Wario can mess with sheik's recovery and get off some good edgeguard kills. Sheik has a much harder time killing wario without the grab release u-smash, which is not nearly as good on a lot of stages and its only REALLY useful on FD. On FD I think sheik might have a slight advantage.

Wario can also SDI away from the jab, which is what I usually do to avoid her grab. That or sometimes SDI up and Nair. And yeah, he kills her way too soon, not only is he just stupidly good at killing her, but he can also edgeguard her pretty good too.

I would say FD is her best stage as well, any other stage than that and I see Shiek doing worse.

 

[Voyeur]

when we say Jab, we don't mean the Rapid Jabs. We mean the to 2 quick ones, come out at 2 frames for the first, then a second, crouch cancel, to grab.

You will be expecting the rapids hopefully, and are SDI'ing, there for that is what gets you grabbed.

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik can easily grab release tipper usmash on Battlefield, and as long as Smashville's platform doesn't get in the way it's quite possible on there, as well. Probably the only starter starter stage that's safe from aerial grab releases is Yoshi's Island.