Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[PKNintendo]

Besides, why are we arguing about grabbing Wario really now? It's not like you'll realistically get Wario in a grab alot.

 

[DMG]

just ignore this failure of a troll.

Stick to the characters you know =3

Lol. I don't have to main Zelda to clearly see how hard it would be to punish Lucario's Fsmash with a dash attack. Please explain/demonstrate how she would do that without being right near his face/midrange and getting a PS. :/

I also don't think Shiek can gimp him very well. He outranges her in the air, and it's hard for her to get past the lingering parts of his aerials like Fair when he is coming back. She also has a hard time knocking him off the stage in the first place, so even if he's forced to land on the stage with his Upb, she won't send him out that far anyways.

 

[Kataefi]

She isn't punishing his FSmash at all unless she powershields into dash attack. His FSmash works in the same way hers does. It's a tad easier to powershield simply because of its startup lag. But that's like saying you're going to DI out of Zelda's attacks everytime.

Best to intercept Fsmash with a dash attack or even better, a dtilt, before the hitbox comes out. It outspaces his jab and tilts and beats out his fsmash. You can use her fsmash in a similar way, but it's less reliable.

IMO this is between 55-45/60-40 Lucario. DSmash puts him in a critical position. Nayru's is a reliable reflector in the hands of a good player facing a predictable lucario player. Sweetspots and uair kill him quick. He dies easily off the top, which is a plus considering her vertical killpower.

But we'll discuss zelda/lucario in the matchup thread later on when PT has finished I supposed or whoever royal's planned next ^^

 

[Zankoku]

I'm not sure why DMG is still around, but Voyeur, you seem to know little about Sheik, yourself.

 

[DMG]

I'm not sure why DMG is still around, but Voyeur, you seem to know little about Sheik, yourself.

I hang around on a lot of the character boards, regardless of whether they are discussing Wario or just chatting about general strategies/tips. I also play as a surprising number of characters, since most people just think I play as Wario. Which is understandable since I have few videos of my secondaries (that and I don't use them a whole lot in tourney compared to Wario, so they don't get recorded anyways).

I thought about picking Shiek up, but IDK I never liked using her or Zelda that much, I want them a bit faster in the air lol.

 

[Voyeur]

I'm not sure why DMG is still around, but Voyeur, you seem to know little about Sheik, yourself.

here to learn aren't I? starting from some where, I'm admitting I don't know much, did so when I came but practice makes perfect ^_^

 

[Zankoku]

here to learn aren't I? starting from some where, I'm admitting I don't know much, did so when I came but practice makes perfect ^_^

Stick to the characters you know =3

Give me a break.

 

[clowsui]

Ankoku is your allergy to stupid not kicking in yet? I thought you normally left **** like this alone because you think retardedness is going on...

 

[Voyeur]

*rolls eyes*
he should stick to the ones he knows, never in that sentence did I say I know Sheik like the back of my hand. I only know more so about her then any of the other characters because she's who I main and am training with.... any way ....

I've never liked theory bull **** and words on paper, talking about it. You play; you play. Win or loose, I'm going to have fun because I like Sheik as a character, fighting style, etc. Fun + competitiveness, playing to make yourself better and not be the best, is what improves your game.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

She isn't punishing his FSmash at all unless she powershields into dash attack. His FSmash works in the same way hers does. It's a tad easier to powershield simply because of its startup lag. But that's like saying you're going to DI out of Zelda's attacks everytime.

Best to intercept Fsmash with a dash attack or even better, a dtilt, before the hitbox comes out. It outspaces his jab and tilts and beats out his fsmash. You can use her fsmash in a similar way, but it's less reliable.

IMO this is between 55-45/60-40 Lucario. DSmash puts him in a critical position. Nayru's is a reliable reflector in the hands of a good player facing a predictable lucario player. Sweetspots and uair kill him quick. He dies easily off the top, which is a plus considering her vertical killpower.

But we'll discuss zelda/lucario in the matchup thread later on when PT has finished I supposed or whoever royal's planned next ^^

he said his opponent is spamming Fsmash. We can't get a dash attack in before a jab, but we CAN get it before another Fsmash.

I really like reminding lucario's the hard way that our Uair beats his Dair... they don't expect it and it maims.

 

[-Mars-]

*rolls eyes*
he should stick to the ones he knows, never in that sentence did I say I know Sheik like the back of my hand. I only know more so about her then any of the other characters because she's who I main and am training with.... any way ....

I've never liked theory bull **** and words on paper, talking about it. You play; you play. Win or loose, I'm going to have fun because I like Sheik as a character, fighting style, etc. Fun + competitiveness, playing to make yourself better and not be the best, is what improves your game.

You don't need to play a character to understand what the character is capable of. Good players can pick up any character in the game and be semi-competent with them instantly and have a good feel for what moves they can use in every situation. Also frame data gives you a basic idea of what each character can punish with anyways.

If you don't like theory bulls***.....then why are you on a message board? You say that everytime we start discussing matchups; it's not theory bulls***, it's Smashers discussing their characters in an intelligent manner and how they personally feel that they fare in the matchup. If you don't like it, then stay out of Matchup Discussions.........simple as that.

Edit: Also I feel that Lucario is about as hard for Sheik/Zelda as Marth is.......at least a 60:40 against both of them although I feel that Sheik has a better matchup because she has a far easier time getting inside. She also can force an approach with needles whereas Dins forces no kind of an approach whatsoever against Aura Sphere.

 

[Voyeur]

Contradiction. I'd be better off playing around with each character to get that better understanding of them, though true you technically don't have to play them and can sit back to reading tons and tons of frame data, even though it'd be easier to see a visual for it. Any way....

yeah...I know I do say that, but there is a difference in the manner of how you put an intelligent and healthy debates or discussions against when people just put out bias, inexperienced novelties of crap out there though. Or how immature half of it boils down too. That is the internet though after all I suppose.

I came to the boards to get a starting point of accumulated knowledge and see where I can advance, what I need to transcend and so forth to become a better Smasher with Sheik in Brawl. We all main Sheik, I'm not here to challenge some testosterone driven hierarchy of the best. I simply just thought other good Sheik players would naturally not mind giving advice and helping each other out, instead of insults and be-littlement to those who are not as experienced or knowledgeable.

We all start from some where. I'll go back to simple lurking and asking questions when I need it I suppose and update the index thread when needed. *rolls eyes and smiles*

 

[-Mars-]

Contradiction. I'd be better off playing around with each character to get that better understanding of them, though true you technically don't have to play them and can sit back to reading tons and tons of frame data, even though it'd be easier to see a visual for it. Any way....

yeah...I know I do say that, but there is a difference in the manner of how you put an intelligent and healthy debates or discussions against when people just put out bias, inexperienced novelties of crap out there though. Or how immature half of it boils down too. That is the internet though after all I suppose.

I came to the boards to get a starting point of accumulated knowledge and see where I can advance, what I need to transcend and so forth to become a better Smasher with Sheik in Brawl. We all main Sheik, I'm not here to challenge some testosterone driven hierarchy of the best. I simply just thought other good Sheik players would naturally not mind giving advice and helping each other out, instead of insults and be-littlement to those who are not as experienced or knowledgeable.

We all start from some where. I'll go back to simple lurking and asking questions when I need it I suppose and update the index thread when needed. *rolls eyes and smiles*

It's the Internet. If someone is concerned about anyone putting them down over the World Wide Web........then they have serious self esteem issues.

It's not that their flat out insulting people....it's just annoying when ignorant people try to come and have discussions when they have no idea what they are talking about.

Oh and there's no need for you to "go away", I enjoy having as many Sheik mains as possible on the boards to help contribute to things. Granted you might not be the most knowledgeable at this point in time......but to be honest I have no clue what i'm talking about most of the time either

 

[rathy Aro]

Contradiction. I'd be better off playing around with each character to get that better understanding of them, though true you technically don't have to play them and can sit back to reading tons and tons of frame data, even though it'd be easier to see a visual for it. Any way....

You can only understand a character so much with out getting more detailed info. and that's not what he meant. Some pros can pick up a character without frame data or extensive practice and do well just by getting a feel for the character. Azen does this all the time. NinjaLink also plays a lot of characters at a high level.

You should stay here and continue to contribute, but only if you understand that theories are potential progress and are not just "BS". Also matchup discussions aren't meant to be theoretical since ideally the people discussing the matchup should have experience in it. It just that no one plays sheik. >.>

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Edit: Also I feel that Lucario is about as hard for Sheik/Zelda as Marth is.......at least a 60:40 against both of them although I feel that Sheik has a better matchup because she has a far easier time getting inside. She also can force an approach with needles whereas Dins forces no kind of an approach whatsoever against Aura Sphere.

I prefer Zelda. What does lucario like? Damage. he gets lots of power if you wrack up damage but can't kill him quickly one he reaches triple digits: That's sheik right there. Zelda might be outranged by lucario, but she DOES have good range and quickper smashes which means, with good spacing, zelda cna be quite a threat to lucario. And that nayru';s can END HIM if he uses aura sphere at a poor/predictable time.

I might, however, suggest starting with sheik. As scary as zelda can be alone, she's even scarrier with fresh kill moves. Get lucario to about 100 damage and one upsmash/tilt could possibly do him in. especially if he's used to sheik's range, he won't be expecting zelda's reach.

 

[Voyeur]

I didn't get butt-hurt, I wasn't going to go "away". I'm just taking some healthy criticism and am going to lurk around and study match ups via other character boards more I guess, and it's nice ours is leaning towards a more detailed one that I hope is done eventually.

@ rathy Aro: I knew what he meant, and I would hope it didn't only pertain to pros because all players should be able to pick a character and get a quick feel for their dynamics :] It's best to do both actions, use the character or fight some one who mains them daily & study frame data.

any who. I still think you'd get more help and input about the match up in the actual Zelda boards to others =P

 

[Villi]

Lucario's disjoints are a problem for Sheik, but if you can stay patient and not rack up unnecessary damage, you can at least keep Lucario at 90ish before you kill him or knock him away and edge guard -- or transform to Zelda and wait for Lucario to mess up as he camps his heart out.

 

[Snakeee]

Uh oh, I think I'm beginning to like Sheik/Zelda more than Samus >_>

I definitely play as her a lot more than ZSS now at least in friendlies

and Lucario is a lot of trouble for Sheik. I'd much rather go all Zelda.

EDIT: What happened to this thread and board? o_O

 

[Blistering Speed]

The thread died because of a lack of structural purpose e.g. no specific character being discussed.
The board's been worse, but there's barely anyone posting.

Good **** at playing Z/S (similar name, coincedental eh).

- Lucario has more range and priority then us in the air and has a lot of generally safe options.
- His aura + Sheik's difficulty with killing = Lucario will **** you if you don't play smart and get the gimp or the tipper.
- Sheik outcamps Lucario.

*Will go into actual detail when I get home*

 

[DMG]

Alright, played a pretty good Shiek with Wario, and I admit it's a lot closer than I thought. I'd say it's like 55:45 Wario on the majority of stages, he has some **** CP's but she also has some good stages too that make it 55:45 her favor.

 

[Tristan_win]

Alright, played a pretty good Shiek with Wario, and I admit it's a lot closer than I thought. I'd say it's like 55:45 Wario on the majority of stages, he has some **** CP's but she also has some good stages too that make it 55:45 her favor.

What was the name of the good sheik player?

 

[clowsui]

The only sheik i know of in the area of TX is like.....KRDsonic?

EDIT:

I take that back
Light (from VA) who now lives in TX is a pretty good Sheik too

 

[DMG]

Light is very good indeed. He's the Shiek player I am talking about. He's getting scary good, I've talked to him and with a few tweaks he would be super scary.

 

[clowsui]

DMG I know you can record vids
Put some vids of Light's sheik up~ I loved his Sheik when I first saw it, it was obvious he had a natural feeling for the character and it was only a matter of time before he became better
Why hasn't he been going to tournies? Has he been busy?

/meatriding but oh well

 

[Zankoku]

Light plays extremely standard


which is strictly better than how I play.

 

[DMG]

IDK why he hasn't been going to tourneys (He would have to travel a lot though), all I know is that he got really good between the last time I saw him (Hobo 13 I think, maybe FS5) up to this point.

I myself cannot record any vids, next time we play though I can record a set for reference.

And he doesn't play THAT standard, he's quite flashy lol.

 

[Snakeee]

I think Sheik/Zelda together actually has the advantage against Wario after I've been playing the match up some more. I like how Sheik can afford to waste her up smash after a grab bc she can go Zelda and grab release f-air/b-air .

 

[DMG]

I think Sheik/Zelda together actually has the advantage against Wario after I've been playing the match up some more. I like how Sheik can afford to waste her up smash after a grab bc she can go Zelda and grab release f-air/b-air .

Ew, Zelda lol. Shiek EASILY does better than Zelda, hands down IMO. We can camp Zelda like we can to Ike, Dedede, Snake, etc. Shiek, on the other hand, not only can just try to run to where Wario would land but she also has needles that can make it a pain to land safely where as Zelda has nothing.

Shiek also has a better chance at getting a grab, even though I think her grab range is slightly smaller. IDK I think Zelda/Shiek mains should just get really good with Shiek if they want to have a shot period at beating Wario.

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik has less range, but her grab lands three frames faster.

 

[Snakeee]

Ew, Zelda lol. Shiek EASILY does better than Zelda, hands down IMO. We can camp Zelda like we can to Ike, Dedede, Snake, etc. Shiek, on the other hand, not only can just try to run to where Wario would land but she also has needles that can make it a pain to land safely where as Zelda has nothing.

Shiek also has a better chance at getting a grab, even though I think her grab range is slightly smaller. IDK I think Zelda/Shiek mains should just get really good with Shiek if they want to have a shot period at beating Wario.

Oh really? Hmm, if I ever get to play you I'd like to play against your Wario with my Zelda alone. I'm not trying to trash talk, I just don't think it's that bad of a match up. Anyway, just using Zelda for the kills seems fine in my book since she has so many more options to kill Wario than Sheik does. I think using both is stronger for this match up than just Sheik.

 

[DMG]

Sheik has less range, but her grab lands three frames faster.

Yeah, that and she's better at getting it since she can run and catch people better with it.

Also Snakeee that would be fine, it's hard for her though if Wario just runs around all day. She has better kill options/moves, but that's assuming Wario has to approach her/that she can land them. I think it's 60:40 Wario overall, more on some of his CP's, and closer to even on hers. But we will see, I didn't know you played as Zelda/Shiek? I'd like to try Diddy or something as well too the next time I can go up there.

 

[choknater]

I'd imagine there are ways Zelda would be able to use her priority in some ways in order to form some walls against Wario. Din's fire probably isn't very effective against him, but I mean, usmash fsmash and dsmash do control space pretty well around her in close proximity, as long as you can predict the angle Wario can approach from and not get punished for whiffs. I'd imagine Wario would still have an advantage but Zelda can also do some pretty decent things in the air like space with aerials. Of course Wario can manuever and camp in the air to find openings, but Zelda is also a pretty good camper and has high priority in close proximity.

I'd agree with Snakeee that using both would be beneficial in the matchup (though I'd probably just stay Sheik out of preference)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I suppose I'd switch to sheik if wario decided all he was going to do was run away, but as long as I have the damage advantage to bring wario my way, I tend to be able to handle him pretty easily with zelda. Zelda normally has a few options for any approach he's got. just don't whiff and it should be good. He's got speed and maneuverability on us, but our smashes save the day against basically anything in his repetoir.

It's probably not gonna be pretty if you get baited all day though, since zelda can't afford to take too many hits from him. neither can sheik though, and I don't find sheik's defensive game near as effective against wario.

c'est le vie. Use whichever character has the strengths that you need at the moment.

 

[choknater]

Fasho. Wario's air camping game is so crazy though, with guys like DMG and Fiction stepping up his already amazing air game. I can imagine Wario having a 55:45 or 60:40 matchup against Sheik/Zelda both.

 

[clowsui]

The problem for Wario is that the Chain is like mad annoying...until he decides to just walk back and fsmash you >___> It can, however, discourage aerial approaches. Using it to edge guard wario if he's coming off the bike is fun though, but I doubt you'll ever get him.

I dunno, I think platformed stages are good - even if you get the clap once in a while you can at least nair OOS to avoid him grabbing you and you at least have some room to run away and charge needles.

 

[Tristan_win]

The problem for Wario is that the Chain is like mad annoying...until he decides to just walk back and fsmash you >___> It can, however, discourage aerial approaches. .

....The chain greatly out ranges wario fsmash and wario fsmash super amour placement doesn't allow him to get though the chain with it like it does with something like Marth up B. I've never been wario fsmash out of the chain his dair gives me more trouble.

 

[choknater]

Chain sounds like a dumb idea against Wario...

Spoiler

lmao this post sounded like gimpyfish

 

[rathy Aro]

....The chain greatly out ranges wario fsmash and wario fsmash super amour placement doesn't allow him to get though the chain with it like it does with something like Marth up B. I've never been wario fsmash out of the chain his dair gives me more trouble.

Maybe my chain control is bad (well definitely), but I've only been hit out of chain by fsmash from behind by wario. His aerials, I can deal with.

edit: There's a good sheik/zelda in NYC?! Actually.... I never even knew Snakeee was from NYC. Just saw the location now. lol

 

[PhantomX]

I thought I'd throw out there that I asked Light to try to keep me back with the Chain while he was hiding under the windmill on PS1, and it only took me 2 airdodges and about 8% to grab him and do 13%... and this was with the windmill in the way.

 

[Zankoku]

What was unique about the second airdodge that the first one didn't allow? Oh yeah, the fact that he messed up. 8% is also suggesting he didn't use the SH chain like he should've.