Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[RyokoYaksa]

To be fair, Voyeur is no better.

And if you can SDI away from jabs every time, or Up+B and hit Sheik out of jabs every time, then the game isn't real.

 

[choknater]

I agree with Fiction that the matchup is 55:45 Wario lol

Wario's spacing is a lot better, but Sheik punishes hard. The best Sheik can do most of the time is roll around, and charge needles. Wario camps the air a lot but when he touches the ground, charged needles will either cause him to take damage or jump in the air again. Sheik's jumps are fast enough to catch him with random uairs, so it's a matter of reading what he does in the air. Wario's air dodges are confusing so watch out lol.

And if you've played warios before... remember that Warios always fish for the not-fully-charged fart, so remember the timing and avoid it!

 

[DMG]

when we say Jab, we don't mean the Rapid Jabs. We mean the to 2 quick ones, come out at 2 frames for the first, then a second, crouch cancel, to grab.

You will be expecting the rapids hopefully, and are SDI'ing, there for that is what gets you grabbed.

I can usually SDI the first jab if I think I will get jabbed ahead of time, and I can SDI the second one nearly 95% of the time.

To be fair, Voyeur is no better.

And if you can SDI away from jabs every time, or Up+B and hit Sheik out of jabs every time, then the game isn't real.

I can SDI a lot of surprising stuff (First hit of Snake's Ftilt, character jabs, etc). I also can break out of grabs extremely fast, and on a relatively good day I can spotdodge people's grabs just by watching their animation.

Now I can't do this 100% obviously, but it's not that farfetched of an idea to be able to SDI some of that stuff more than just occasionally.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

You would need a "choice" reaction time of like 100 ms be able to spot dodge grabs reliably. It's an impressive thought, but highly unrealistic in practice. I'd attribute this a lot less to reaction time and more to conditioned reflexes, which people need to understand are only good against specific possibilities.

 

[Steel]

and on a relatively good day I can spotdodge people's grabs just by watching their animation.

bahahahaahhahaahahahahahahaha

 

[ssbbFICTION]

You would need a "choice" reaction time of like 100 ms be able to spot dodge grabs reliably. It's an impressive thought, but highly unrealistic in practice. I'd attribute this a lot less to reaction time and more to conditioned reflexes, which people need to understand are only good against specific possibilities.

You can't jab to grab mikehaze's marth at all, he up-b's everytime. Its obviously not impossible...

 

[Zankoku]

He Up+B's on reaction to getting hit by a jab? Are any of you people smart enough to realize this in-game and simply jab to shield?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Reacting to jab canceling windows are well within the realm of humanly possible reactions. SDI'ing 1-2 jabs themselves out of nowhere? Spot dodging grabs out of nowhere? Yeah, no.

Also, Marth's Up+B is ******** and jabbing to shield exists... except against Marth.

 

[Blistering Speed]

And Bowser.

 

[PhantomX]

Sheik can easily grab release tipper usmash on Battlefield, and as long as Smashville's platform doesn't get in the way it's quite possible on there, as well. Probably the only starter starter stage that's safe from aerial grab releases is Yoshi's Island.

Just thought I'd let you know that we can get grab released if the big platform tilts upwards and you are under it, and we can get hit by it if it's tilted fully down when you grab us.

As to this matchup, I really don't care anymore. Everyone thinks it's in their favor and now there's just pointless bickering :\ I'll just continue not losing to Sheiks, which is good enough for me, haha.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

As to this matchup, I really don't care anymore. Everyone thinks it's in their favor and now there's just pointless bickering :\ I'll just continue not losing to Sheiks, which is good enough for me, haha.

Well, it's about time at least one other person figured it out.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Just curious, but why do the Olimar boards have the Sheik match-up as 60:40 in her favor?

 

[choknater]

Probably that DanGR dude.

The matchup is weird... sometimes Sheik is amazing, sometimes Olimar is amazing.

 

[Flamingo]

Play my roommate, my Olimar teammate. We **** in doubles, but I learned MK for the matchup in the event I have to play against him. Sheik can do nothing but use the chain, I have ultimately decided. If anyone wants to disagree or argue, go to either Billfest in NC this weekend, or HERB in march in NC. We will be there. ^^

Actually, idk, I actually havent played an Olimar vs. Sheik since I have gotten to the level I am now with Sheik... So I might give it another try and evaluate if it really is a hopeless matchup or not... I'll give you guys my results.

 

[Brinzy]

Just curious, but why do the Olimar boards have the Sheik match-up as 60:40 in her favor?

Take a look at Olimar's tougher fights. Characters who can land and jab within a certain time frame tend to do very nicely against Olimar. His grab, if I'm not mistaken, lacks grab armor. Sheik can land very quickly and jab him up so long as she's careful about it.

Sheik can also be a bit problematic for Oimar to make it back to the stage.

Other than that, I don't really know for sure, but I'm sure it has a lot to do with how fast Sheik can attack and how well Sheik can approach. Olimar does have some pretty nice attacks on him that can hinder Sheik a bit, but I think Sheik beats him out up close, a place she doesn't have too much trouble getting to.

 

[rathy Aro]

I played a few sets against my friend's wario and I got ***** most of the time. >.> What I did note is that chain COMPLETELY shut him down. He had no way to get past it short of breaking the bike which gave me more than enough time to shoot needles at him, dodge/get rid of the item, and return to chain camping. He's not a great wario, but he tried everything he could think of to get past, only when I ****ed up did get me.

 

[DMG]

bahahahaahhahaahahahahahahaha

Don't believe me? Watch me vs Roy R 1-2. Notice how we will have moments where we are both standing next to each other shielding for a longer period of time, he goes for a grab, I spotdodge it.

Cmon people, this isn't unrealistic, I'm not trying to spotdodge Snake's Ftilt on command or MK's Ftilt/Dtilt.

 

[Zankoku]

You're not spotdodging on reaction to seeing a grab, you're spotdodging on reaction to seeing any motion besides "continue shielding." There's a difference, and when Roy_R figures it out he'll also see how best to exploit such a practiced reflex.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ankoku's right. There's no way you're fast enough to dodge the grab animation. you just got lucky in prediction.

All he'd have to do is drop his sheild instead of grabbing and your instinctive spotdodge could get punished

 

[Steel]

Don't believe me? Watch me vs Roy R 1-2. Notice how we will have moments where we are both standing next to each other shielding for a longer period of time, he goes for a grab, I spotdodge it.

Cmon people, this isn't unrealistic, I'm not trying to spotdodge Snake's Ftilt on command or MK's Ftilt/Dtilt.

No, i don't believe you. Marth's grab is 6 frames. Spot dodge comes out on frame 2. You have a 4-5 frame window to input the dodge. If your reactions are that inhuman then i bow down to you.

 

[DMG]

Ankoku's right. There's no way you're fast enough to dodge the grab animation. you just got lucky in prediction.

All he'd have to do is drop his sheild instead of grabbing and your instinctive spotdodge could get punished

It's not extremely hard guys lol, the average grab is like, 6-7 frames?

Now, there's no way I can spotdodge a jab/attack that comes out in 4 frames or less, and it's even harder if you can't see the animation changes clearly until the hitbox comes out. With most characters you can tell though and be able to react to the grab.

Oh well, I'll just let you guys think people can't SDI the jab or avoid the follow up grab or that people can't react fast lol.

No, i don't believe you. Marth's grab is 6 frames. Spot dodge comes out on frame 2. You have a 4-5 frame window to input the dodge. If your reactions are that inhuman then i bow down to you.

Well 2 things help, one is having the Control Stick already slanted somewhat down so that you don't have to push it much further to spot dodge (You can do this for a lot of other actions, like Shielding or using the Cstick). The other is just being really good at predicting. Combine that with a better than average (but not inhuman) reaction time and it manages alright.

Now personally I can't play with it slanted slightly down, that feels too weird lol, but I know of other people that use that to have that edge and props to them, cause it makes them have not only better DI but better reactions overall.

 

[mikekleman]

how does zelda rate against lucario?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

how does zelda rate against lucario?

Zelda boards haven't officially discussed it yet.

I don't have trouble with the matchup but I think the lucario boards say they are advantaged, so it's probably a pretty even or at least pretty close to even matchup. no worse than 60:40, but probably not our advantage either.

 

[Steel]

predicting.

bo ld

 

[mikekleman]

Zelda boards haven't officially discussed it yet.

I don't have trouble with the matchup but I think the lucario boards say they are advantaged, so it's probably a pretty even or at least pretty close to even matchup. no worse than 60:40, but probably not our advantage either.

thats what i was thinking too. i usually 2 stock or sometimes 1 stock my friend when he uses lucario.

 

[DMG]

I said combine predicting with better than average, but not inhuman reaction time lol. Not just one or the other, I think that in some cases you do indeed have to predict well or anticipate to have good reflexes, the better you know something will happen, the sooner/better you can prepare for it and execute a reaction.

Also I think Lucario is 60:40 against Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah I don't often play good lucarios sadly. Most of my experience is against Warios, Snakes, Ganondorfs, Peaches and Earthbounders.

Of those I only have any problems at all with pecahes and snakes.

Lucario's I fight normally get 2 or 3 stocked by me, but I attribute that more to skill difference than charcter matchup. I could see where lucario could be a bit troublesome for zelda.

 

[Steel]

I said combine predicting with better than average, but not inhuman reaction time lol. Not just one or the other, I think that in some cases you do indeed have to predict well or anticipate to have good reflexes, the better you know something will happen, the sooner/better you can prepare for it and execute a reaction.

Well yeah, if you are waiting for something that you KNOW will happen your reaction time shoots up. That's believable.

 

[mikekleman]

yeah I don't often play good lucarios sadly. Most of my experience is against Warios, Snakes, Ganondorfs, Peaches and Earthbounders.

Of those I only have any problems at all with pecahes and snakes.

Lucario's I fight normally get 2 or 3 stocked by me, but I attribute that more to skill difference than charcter matchup. I could see where lucario could be a bit troublesome for zelda.

its mainly his smashes and spamming of the down air. its so annoying! what would you recommend in that kind of matchup. also, to general public, i finnd it really easy to crush donkey kong for some reason. why is that?

 

[Voyeur]

Mike since this is more zelda related you should probably go to their boards and get more help, most of us mainly just use Sheik and zelda is there for KOs

 

[Zankoku]

It's not extremely hard guys lol, the average grab is like, 6-7 frames?

Now, there's no way I can spotdodge a jab/attack that comes out in 4 frames or less, and it's even harder if you can't see the animation changes clearly until the hitbox comes out. With most characters you can tell though and be able to react to the grab.

Oh well, I'll just let you guys think people can't SDI the jab or avoid the follow up grab or that people can't react fast lol.

I will now outline some things because apparently being skeptical is unfounded.

A grab will hit on frame 6.
A spotdodge is invulnerable on frame 2.
This gives you a 4 frame window to spotdodge a grab on reaction. 4 frames is 0.067 second.
The average human reaction time is 0.25 second, 0.20 second for athletes or gamers. I think I've seen one person who, knowing exactly what to expect, managed a reaction time of 0.07 second in a test.
But, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you spotdodge only AFTER seeing the grab...

If you are somehow able, in that 0.067 second, to distinguish between a shieldgrab and pretty much any other action involving no longer shielding, you definitely are inhuman. I don't think this is debatable.
If you are not able to, then your reaction can be read and played. You're just as likely to spotdodge a grab on reaction as you are to spotdodge a roll, spotdodge, or simply a shield-drop.

Prediction is absolutely necessary to be able to spotdodge a grab once you see the grab startup, and you can't really say that the action he'll take is always a grab.

I remember a friend who told me he tried to punish those double shield into shieldgrab situations with Dolphin Slash. He also mentioned how it tended to get him punished when he reacted to a spotdodge or roll instead of a grab.





Now, this part is entirely related to using the Brawl hack of frame timing.

The first jab won't give you enough hitlag to SDI and escape from the second jab. As in, it's literally impossible even with frame-perfect play. It is, however, weak enough that it doesn't have the hitstun to combo into anything except second jab. The second jab can be SDI'd all sorts of distances.

So the next time you talk yourself up about avoiding grabs by SDIing the first jab, keep in mind you can actually avoid a jab-grab setup by normal DIing away... seeing as how there's not enough hitstun to actually keep you in place for the grab, ever.

 

[DMG]

The first jab won't give you enough hitlag to SDI and escape from the second jab. As in, it's literally impossible even with frame-perfect play. It is, however, weak enough that it doesn't have the hitstun to combo into anything except second jab. The second jab can be SDI'd all sorts of distances.

So the next time you talk yourself up about avoiding grabs by SDIing the first jab, keep in mind you can actually avoid a jab-grab setup by normal DIing away... seeing as how there's not enough hitstun to actually keep you in place for the grab, ever.

SDI + DI is better than just regular DI though. You can also mix it up better with SDI, where as with just normal DI you usually will just retreat. For example, if I SDI up and towards you, I can try to airdodge/position behind you and get close, where as with regular DI it would be wise to just hold away from Shiek to avoid anything else.

And yes, I'm fully aware that Jab to grab doesn't actually truly combo, in fact I don't think a single character has a true jab to grab that truly connects if you react properly, not even someone with a good Jab like Falco.

 

[Zankoku]

No, you don't understand. The first jab just doesn't let you SDI any sort of effective distance. I'm not entirely sure why but it may be connected to that dumb "cinematic hitlag" mechanic. It's pretty telling when the first and second jabs deal roughly equal damage (which is what determines normal hitlag), I can't escape from the first jab, and the second jab lets me SDI halfway across FD.

 

[DMG]

It might just be a tight hitlag frame window. I don't think it has the "cinematic hitlag" because most of the moves with that, to my knowledge, actually make it seem like it slows down the game or have a really noticeable effect (Falcon's Sweet Spotted Knee, Marth's Fsmash Tipper, Zelda's Sweet Spotted Lightning Kick, etc).

 

[Zankoku]

Are you reading what I write? I've got frame by frame timing. I can SDI the SECOND jab half the distance of FD. I can care less how "tight" the window is.

 

[DMG]

Are you reading what I write? I've got frame by frame timing. I can SDI the SECOND jab half the distance of FD. I can care less how "tight" the window is.

Lol I'm just saying that most moves that have that cinematic hitlag kinda have like a big delay or a pause, like Falcon's Knee. I don't see that with her first jab, so it's either a tight hitlag frame window, or it's one of those really weak moves that you can't SDI well or that the SDI you get is not comparable to another attack.

I've noticed that with some attacks, where it technically lets you SDI it but you barely move an inch or two in that direction, compared to when you SDI another attack you move almost 3/4ths of a foot or something. I'm not sure what attacks have that property though.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Now, this part is entirely related to using the Brawl hack of frame timing.

The first jab won't give you enough hitlag to SDI and escape from the second jab. As in, it's literally impossible even with frame-perfect play. It is, however, weak enough that it doesn't have the hitstun to combo into anything except second jab. The second jab can be SDI'd all sorts of distances.

So the next time you talk yourself up about avoiding grabs by SDIing the first jab, keep in mind you can actually avoid a jab-grab setup by normal DIing away... seeing as how there's not enough hitstun to actually keep you in place for the grab, ever.

Thanks Ankoku. Any chance of testing the rest of the frame data needed for the jab discussion?

The closest you guys are going to get to inhuman reaction times is me, 1.81 baby.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

its mainly his smashes and spamming of the down air. its so annoying! what would you recommend in that kind of matchup. also, to general public, i finnd it really easy to crush donkey kong for some reason. why is that?

easy to sweetspot him might be what's making DK easy.

As for lucario: OoS Usmash and Zelda's Uair both can be used against lucario's dair if your timing/spacing is correct. Spacing is required for Uair, rtiming is required for usmash.

Smash spaming should not be a problem. We can punish the cooldown of his Fsmash with a dash attack or a grab or just use din's against it.


I'm not a fan of sheik on lucario, though he IS gimpable if he doesn't get a stage with walls.

 

[DMG]

Smash spaming should not be a problem. We can punish the cooldown of his Fsmash with a dash attack or a grab or just use din's against it.

Lolwhut, u can't punish the cooldown of his Fsmash with a dash attack, you would have to be mid range at least and PS it. It's also hard to grab Lucario after his Fsmash hits your shield, pushes Zelda back a bit.

Dins you would have to start a bit earlier than his Fsmash and be outside his range.

I also don't think Shiek can gimp him that well, even without walls.

 

[Voyeur]

just ignore this failure of a troll.

Stick to the characters you know =3