Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[Blistering Speed]

We don't do a set order, if you want to discuss a matchup then discuss it. I see it ranging anywhere from 50:50 to 60:40 Sheik, either way I don't think soft counter is too far away a prospect (though I do hate that terminology, people use it when it works for them). What do you suggest?

 

[Flamingo]

We don't do a set order, if you want to discuss a matchup then discuss it. I see it ranging anywhere from 50:50 to 60:40 Sheik, either way I don't think soft counter is too far away a prospect (though I do hate that terminology, people use it when it works for them). What do you suggest?

I say we definately have the upper hand... Grab Release to tipper Usmash is too good. PS you get ftilted pretty good.

 

[DMG]

We don't do a set order, if you want to discuss a matchup then discuss it. I see it ranging anywhere from 50:50 to 60:40 Sheik, either way I don't think soft counter is too far away a prospect (though I do hate that terminology, people use it when it works for them). What do you suggest?

I think Wario has the advantage. 55:45 to 60:40. Ftilt lock doesn't work compared to on other characters, he won't die for a long long time vs Shiek unless she gets a Tipper Usmash and even then he lives pretty long, he kills her way too good, and he can really screw with her recovery. Not to mention that he does a crap load of damage on his attacks, where as Shiek has to hit him more to get the same % on him.

I say we definately have the upper hand... Grab Release to tipper Usmash is too good. PS you get ftilted pretty good.

Ftilt lock won't work for numerous reasons, one of them being we can pull out our bike and the next time you try to Ftilt you will pick it up and we not only get out but can punish you with a free hit.

Also, GL grabbing Wario haha. Even the best grabbers in the game have trouble grabbing Wario.

 

[Zankoku]

Seeing as how you can't catch a bike out of the air, breaking the ftilt lock with bike probably only works if the Sheik is doing it horribly, horribly wrong.

 

[DMG]

Seeing as how you can't catch a bike out of the air, breaking the ftilt lock with bike probably only works if the Sheik is doing it horribly, horribly wrong.

You Ftilt, I bike and another Ftilt hits me in the early frames and knocks it dead to the ground, it literally just drops straight down, not at an angle. It also doesn't bounce like crazy. Next Ftilt you try to do (or even just pressing A without trying to Ftilt) Shiek will pick up the bike and Wario will be free, able to punish her.

But it's ok, we can just assume the Shiek player is doing it wrong.

 

[Zankoku]

How about if that's when she chooses to nair? If it's true that Sheik has to knock you off your bike before pressing A to actually pick it up, then that gives the Sheik player a half second's time of reacting to a BIKE FALLING OUT OF NOWHERE to decide to end the ftilt lock or something.

Or just do the lock right so Wario can't get the bike out in the first place.

Also, Ryoko challenges Wario to have a solution to the chain.

 

[DMG]

How about if that's when she chooses to nair? If it's true that Sheik has to knock you off your bike before pressing A to actually pick it up, then that gives the Sheik player a half second's time of reacting to a BIKE FALLING OUT OF NOWHERE to decide to end the ftilt lock or something.

I said it ends the Ftilt lock, not that you can't react to it or that you have no follow ups.

Or just do the lock right so Wario can't get the bike out in the first place.

Also, Ryoko challenges Wario to have a solution to the chain.

Do you know how decayed Ftilt has to be before you can do it to where Wario doesn't have a single frame to pull the bike out, or for him to not be able to SDI out of it? You literally have to start hitting Wario at 0% with it, which BTW he can SDI down at early %'s and shield another Ftilt, and then Shiek has to keep using basically only Ftilt for another 40-50% or so for a true Ftilt combo to get anywhere on Wario. Otherwise it will be too strong and you will either have to delay a following Ftilt, which gives him time to pull out the bike, or you have to finish it with Nair/Ftilt/Usmash/follow up.

Chain solutions:

1. Toss a bike at Shiek (yes situational, but I'm tired of people saying Wario is helpless vs Chain).

2. Airdodge into her from the front/back and shield, she has only 2-3 frames to punish your landing lag IIRC. You can also SDI it behind her or change sides if you are in front and she can't whip it from one side to the other in time to catch him again.

3. Airdodge from slightly above her, and pick either in front of her or behind her. She cannot cover both sides at once.

 

[Tristan_win]

Do you know how decayed Ftilt has to be before you can do it to where Wario doesn't have a single frame to pull the bike out, or for him to not be able to SDI out of it? You literally have to start hitting Wario at 0% with it, which BTW he can SDI down at early %'s and shield another Ftilt, and then Shiek has to keep using basically only Ftilt for another 40-50% or so for a true Ftilt combo to get anywhere on Wario. Otherwise it will be too strong and you will either have to delay a following Ftilt, which gives him time to pull out the bike, or you have to finish it with Nair/Ftilt/Usmash/follow up.

Please don't try to make it sound like you know what your talking about when you really don't.

 

[Zankoku]

[7:50:29 PM] RyokoYaksa says: This guy isn't worth a reply from me.
[7:50:54 PM] Ankoku says: lol, fine, I'll C/P the important parts from here.

I know Wario isn't tiltlockable and I don't try to, so I'm not going to bother addressing that... standard ftilt combos **** hard enough

and doesn't any attack stop the thrown bike dead? and... wouldn't picking up the bike be A GIANT RED FLAG to put away the chain and be at a huge advantage? Might as well have a "OMG NEEDLE ME PLZ" sign on the face.

I've never been able to *miss* someone that tried to airdodge into my chain
if the SH chain is used as it should be, and it does so much as clip you... you're in for a ride
but it's not like it's hard to have it cover the area he's going to land in

 

[DMG]

Lol.

Point is, Shiek really has to decay the Ftilt pretty far for her to actually Tilt lock Wario for 40+ damage. The sooner she starts, the sooner her Ftilt will be decayed for her to attempt the Tilt lock. If she starts too soon, he can SDI it down and shield. If she starts it too late, then it's not a real tilt lock. Ryoko, from what that message implies, doesn't try to Ftilt lock Wario that much since he's really not tilt lockable compared to most characters, so IDK why we're arguing over that haha.

Attacks do not necessarily stop a throw bike dead, it will get hit a few times by the chain if she is swinging it above her and then it will hit her.

But whatever, so much for having a friendly conversation about a matchup. I'm obviously some scrub player not worth a casual/formal/non demeaning reply.

 

[Zankoku]

You don't have to be a scrub player to be not worth a reply from Ryoko.

I don't know where you got this misconception about Sheik having to land ftilts at 0% when that is literally the worst % to land an ftilt at, but whatever, right?

 

[DMG]

You don't have to be a scrub player to be not worth a reply from Ryoko.

I don't know where you got this misconception about Sheik having to land ftilts at 0% when that is literally the worst % to land an ftilt at, but whatever, right?

Point I was trying to make was that if Shiek does indeed wanna do a real Ftilt lock for, say 40% of damage, that she has to start hitting him early. Now, obviously 0% is too low, but say you start at 20%. If it's fresh, he might be able to SDI it down to the ground, maybe not and in that case he can start to SDI up. I think you would get like 3 utilts and then a Nair from 20%. If you want a longer combo then that, she would probably have to start to decay it earlier than 20%.

So yes, I apologize, 0% is too low, I think even 10% or 15% would be too low if he can SDI the first one (which is hard sometimes if you aren't really expecting it).

 

[Zankoku]

From 25-30%, ftilt ftilt (ftilt?) nair/(uair bair/uair/nair)
22% for the least damaging variant, 38% for the most damaging variant. After that, I would expect ftilt to be properly decayed for a quick combo (ftilt nair, ftilt uair xair, ftilt dsmash??) that deals around 20-30% at a time.

[7:30:49 PM] RyokoYaksa says: and I dunno about the grab thing
[7:31:14 PM] RyokoYaksa says: but unless Wario doesn't use a single ground attack, he's going to get grabbed at a key moment

Also, I realized I missed a part from the talk about bikes and chains and edited it in.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

If you can't stop a thrown bike with a Chain before it has a chance of falling on and hitting you, then you suck with the Chain.

If you can't read a landing air dodge and have the Chain ready to hit them as they land, then you suck with the Chain.

If you don't know when to put away the Chain, then you suck with the Chain.

If you suck with the Chain, then you should practice so that you no longer suck with the Chain.

If you don't play with emphasis on maximizing guaranteed damage/kill setups and instead attempt superfluous risky combos and moves, then you just suck in general. Ftilt locking when it doesn't actually lock is one of these.

Also, the Chain.

 

[DMG]

Ah, saw that added part about the bike now. Actually, I don't think Shiek would have enough time to drop her chain and throw Needles at Wario if he is trying to toss it. It depends on when she is reacting though.

If Shiek is moving her Chain, and Wario is near the bike, if she drops it too soon before he picks it up, he can run over and grab her/try to attack her. If she is too slow and doesn't drop it fast enough, she would probably only have time to shield/spotdodge/roll. If they reacted both at the same time and she decided to throw Needles, I think Shiek could throw Needles and the Bike would be on it's way to hit her (so Wario and Shiek trade hits basically).

 

[PhantomX]

Theoretically by the arguments you guys seem to be making, Sheik should have advantage over everyone b/c she can just stop them and keep them at bay with the chain, rofl.

 

[Zankoku]

It's called projectiles that don't care (Aura Sphere, Needles, ROB laser), invulnerable attacks (Dolphin Slash, Super Jump Punch), projectiles in general (Waddle, Razor Leaf), and long range (Zero Suit Samus) that don't involve spending an hour to prepare.

 

[PKNintendo]

DMG a scrub? Perish the thought. DMG, you idiot! You need to be formal on the Sheik boards. Remmeber that Russian guy from Seinfeld who would only serve soup to respectful people?

Be respectful.

Sheik mains, please don't insult this man. The way he posts, makes him seem like a scrub, but he's one of best players... Ever.

 

[DMG]

Lol, I didn't ask for other people to just randomly jump in this lol. Gtfo you guys lol. PKNintendo do you semi stalk me? lol. And my posts have been formal, the only thing I feel semi warrented on the flaming was about the Ftilt lock, and we already agreed that wasn't a big issue. And I don't post like a scrub, I didn't go "Lolol Shiek sucks, she can't beat someone who's in a higher tier than her" or some biased BS a lotta people pull against Wario (not accusing the Shiek boards of this, but I've had this issue in the past on different character boards.)

Ankoku,

I'm more upset about this attitude that if something doesn't work well for Shiek's chain, it's because that player sucks with the chain. Maybe the answer is that the chain isn't perfect, even in good hands? Maybe it's hard to punish only 2 frames of landing lag and cover both sides?

 

[Voyeur]

Theory, theory and more theory.

But nah...in the hands of a real well developed Sheik 'pro' the chain shouldn't fail unless forced to be retracted (is canceled) It's an extremely under estimated weapon, along with Sheik as a character in general.

The match up I've always felt is 60/40 or 55:45 in Sheik's favor to begin with, factors of the obvious statements above along with the tagged factor most to self respecting Sheik mains, also main or have a decent Zelda which in ALL cases tip the favors for the victory.

You mentioned things on predicting actions after (X) number of Ftilts, but in actuality that is subject to change for every Sheik player you come across obviously, so you can't rely on that mind set.

 

[PhantomX]

Sheik can't just sit there with her Chain out and win or be unapproachable, as much as you guys may wish this were so :\

 

[-Mars-]

Theoretically by the arguments you guys seem to be making, Sheik should have advantage over everyone b/c she can just stop them and keep them at bay with the chain, rofl.

A perfect example of why you shouldn't comment about things that you don't have a clear understanding of.

One thing to note is that at low percents a single ftilt will usually enable you the chance to land a grab which does a quick 35% right off the bat.

 

[PhantomX]

A perfect example of why you shouldn't comment about things that you don't have a clear understanding of.

One thing to note is that at low percents a single ftilt will usually enable you the chance to land a grab which does a quick 35% right off the bat.

Lern2Hyperbole.

 

[-Mars-]

Lern2ThInKB4USpeak.

 

[PhantomX]

Oh right, I forgot that being demeaning and arrogant makes you right and makes you smarter... wait... no it doesn't.

 

[DMG]

Theory, theory and more theory.

But nah...in the hands of a real well developed Sheik 'pro' the chain shouldn't fail unless forced to be retracted (is canceled) It's an extremely under estimated weapon, along with Sheik as a character in general.

The match up I've always felt is 60/40 or 55:45 in Sheik's favor to begin with, factors of the obvious statements above along with the tagged factor most to self respecting Sheik mains, also main or have a decent Zelda which in ALL cases tip the favors for the victory.

You mentioned things on predicting actions after (X) number of Ftilts, but in actuality that is subject to change for every Sheik player you come across obviously, so you can't rely on that mind set.

Zelda does not have the advantage on Wario lol. I actually recommended to them to switch to Shiek since Shiek at least can deal with Wario's camping where as Zelda cannot and loses hard when she has to approach.

Also, you guys get out. I'm looking right at you Phantom. I didn't want this to turn into a flame fest, and I still don't. Cut the crap out. Seriously.

 

[Voyeur]

any way....

Zelda is brought out when the essence of a nice quick KO is needed, even from her Dash attack or Utilt, ect. during respawns, and what not. No one said anything about going Zelda for the match.

...it just hit me...wasting time on match up talks and ratio, percentage and all this when if you win you win, if you lose you lose.....kek.

edit; I was going to say more but the obvious over whelming sense of common sense that is hit me and now I'm going to soothe this ****ed ear ache.

 

[DMG]

any way....

Zelda is brought out when the essence of a nice quick KO is needed, even from her Dash attack or Utilt, ect. during respawns, and what not. No one said anything about going Zelda for the match.

...it just hit me...wasting time on match up talks and ratio, percentage and all this when if you win you win, if you lose you lose.....kek.

edit; I was going to say more but the obvious over whelming sense of common sense that is hit me and now I'm going to soothe this ****ed ear ache.

Zelda kills better only if she can catch Wario, otherwise it's almost better to try and go Shiek the entire match.

 

[-Mars-]

Zelda kills better only if she can catch Wario, otherwise it's almost better to try and go Shiek the entire match.

I still don't agree that Zelda can't catch Wario if we're playing on a small stage....but whatever.

 

[PhantomX]

Zelda does not have the advantage on Wario lol. I actually recommended to them to switch to Shiek since Shiek at least can deal with Wario's camping where as Zelda cannot and loses hard when she has to approach.

Also, you guys get out. I'm looking right at you Phantom. I didn't want this to turn into a flame fest, and I still don't. Cut the crap out. Seriously.

You're not the boss of me, dude. I wasn't going to flame until he started insulting me just because he could.

The fact of the matter is their argument is hinging on perfection. Unless you Chain absolutely perfectly you won't keep Wario out of your face, you won't hit him off the bike by pegging with the tip of the chain, you won't stop the projectiles, etc. I was pointing out the fallacy in the argument "do it right." If that argument held, Olimar would have huge advantage on MK because of "Perfect Camping."

 

[-Mars-]

You're not the boss of me, dude. I wasn't going to flame until he started insulting me just because he could.

The fact of the matter is their argument is hinging on perfection. Unless you Chain absolutely perfectly you won't keep Wario out of your face, you won't hit him off the bike by pegging with the tip of the chain, you won't stop the projectiles, etc. I was pointing out the fallacy in the argument "do it right." If that argument held, Olimar would have huge advantage on MK because of "Perfect Camping."

Why do we need to be perfect with the chain if we rack up 50% before you can even hit us out?

 

[Voyeur]

Zelda kills better only if she can catch Wario, otherwise it's almost better to try and go Shiek the entire match.

"only if" ...to vague and broad. To much theory.

When it comes time to discuss this more thoroughly in the other match up board and I've had time to play more Wario's I'm sure I'll be able to contribute more to this.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Take perfect chain as with Wario can avoid almost everyone in the game with his air speed and air dodge

Perfect Chain is like Perfect camping with Wario

Well, maybe not the same but close to it

 

[Zankoku]

EVERYONE SHUT UP

DMG: It's actually 4 frames.

 

[DMG]

EVERYONE SHUT UP

DMG: It's actually 4 frames.

I thought it was 2 normally, and 4 if fast falling? Hmm.

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah, that. Either way it's not particularly difficult to create a "meaty" chain hitbox on the ground.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Anyone mentioning "the tip" of the Chain like it even matters is a sure sign that they haven't even seen proper Chain usage.

Wario is just by nature one of the most vulnerable characters in the game to Chain camping because he doesn't have a move to get through it that doesn't take a year to set up. For how much you're touting Wario's aerial dodging movement, the Chain can move to a particular spot about 10x faster.

Fighting Wario with Zelda is, well... boring the way I do it. I wouldn't want to unless forced.

Also, I have every right to be arrogant because I'm right about everything. DEAL WITH IT, YOU LESSER BEINGS.

 

[DMG]

Anyone mentioning "the tip" of the Chain like it even matters is a sure sign that they haven't even seen proper Chain usage.

Wario is just by nature one of the most vulnerable characters in the game to Chain camping because he doesn't have a move to get through it that doesn't take a year to set up. For how much you're touting Wario's aerial dodging movement, the Chain can move to a particular spot about 10x faster.

Fighting Wario with Zelda is, well... boring the way I do it. I wouldn't want to unless forced.

Also, I have every right to be arrogant because I'm right about everything. DEAL WITH IT, YOU LESSER BEINGS.

Fine, does Shiek's chain camping counter MK then?

I mean, it does outrange him right? And he's slooooow in the air compared to Wario, surely you can hit him too if he tried to get past it with air dodging?

From what I can tell, it doesn't counter MK, and I'd like to think that since Wario is better at getting inside people's range than MK, that he doesn't get countered by it too.

So either it counters MK, and everyone switches to Shiek to deal with MK since it counters him, or it doesn't counter him and Wario, who is better at getting past people's range than MK, also is not countered.

Or, what is more likely, is that there is a noticeable difference in what the chain can do in theory and what good players are able to do with it.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I'll remember that I can't get through the chain while I'm ****** you out of it. kthanxbai

 

[Zankoku]

Admittedly, the only times Meta Knight has without fail hit me out of Chain is when I didn't throw the Chain "quickly" enough to outrange Meta Knight's spaced dair.