Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[Villi]

I think Sheik does better than Zelda vs DDD. Sheik can definitely pull off some good stuff on DDD because of her speed. If DDD is in the air, let him land then. He can't approach from the air, he can only try to make you think he's run out of jumps while you're free to run around on the ground. The Zelda part of the match is usually a chore. I dunno why anyone would want to drag that out for an entire match.

 

[Palpi]

Good points were often brought up about both characters and their strengths against D3. Maybe this calls for not only switching to zelda for a kill but staying for a stock to mix up the match, and have you opponent worrying about 2 characters?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

the ganondorf matchup thread has officially declared Ganon Vs. Sheik as 95:05 our advantage.

and rightfully so really.

we can win as simple as: pick a stage with platforms, throw one needle, short hop a chain under the platform. Watch as ganondorf tries to approach you for 8 minutes.

not that we can't beat him the good old fashion way either.

 

[Zankoku]

Hahaha, wow. I might consider updating the matchup, but I think the Ganon boards took it a little too extreme. It's 90-10 at worst.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Hahaha, wow. I might consider updating the matchup, but I think the Ganon boards took it a little too extreme. It's 90-10 at worst.

iunno... I mean... I understand the point. as long as they aren't on final destination, they are completely incapable of making it through sheik's chain with ANY attack whatsoever.

if it were just the massive frame advantage, gimping ability, defensive prowess, offensive mastery and outcamping ability, 80:20-90:10 would be right... but... seriously. sheik can sit there with a chain. and win. she doesn't have to do anything else... at all.


oh and on a less exciting note, there's internal argument on the Zelda boards. some of us, myself and ninjalink included, are CONVINCED peach has a noticable advantage on zelda (60:40 probably) so that would make peach good against both sheik and zelda. making her one of the worse matchups.

oh and we came around on MK making him 60:40.

you can check the thread on the zelda boards for other recent updates I guess.

 

[Blistering Speed]

95:05?! Does that make it the most onesided matchup in Brawl? Except MAYBE the DDD infinite CG ones, but heck, even then I don't think it's that extreme.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

95:05?! Does that make it the most onesided matchup in Brawl? Except MAYBE the DDD infinite CG ones, but heck, even then I don't think it's that extreme.

ganon boards think the ice climbers are just about as bad for him, so they might get the same matchup, or a 100:0 one.

because ganondorf simply should never win against a good sheik... isn't that what it means to be that bad a matchup?

 

[-Mars-]

Lol, Ganondorf mains are awesome. Really though I tested and the only thing he MIGHT be able to hit you out of the chain is with an aerial wizkick and if you're under a platform....he's screwed.

 

[Flamingo]

Being off by 10 can be pretty significant. 60:40 is a slight advantage. 70:30 is a hard counter. The only time it wouldn't really mean too much would be something like putting a 90:10 when it should be 100:0.

Well said. Sheik is also the kind of character who can make a bad matchup against her not count with her amazing ability to gimp.

 

[Zankoku]

Um, what? How easy it is to gimp a recovery is considered when looking at a matchup.

 

[demodemo]

so are we going to have any the numbers on dedede? i think it's been long enough now that we can throw some matchup numbers around..

i would say 45-55 sheik only, 60-40 zelda/sheik, and not sure about just zelda, but i hear some good things so probably 60-40 too..

 

[Zankoku]

I think they're still discussing the solo Zelda matchup over there. I'll wait until a solid number is decided by both groups.

 

[Steel]

Y es .

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

urg. I hate DDD. He's fun to **** with zelda. but I feel that I have to play so gay against him. Din's fire camping and all.

Pyro commented that zelda's the only charcter he can't reliably grab with zelda and, despiting going about even in sets against me, he seems to think zelda is a hard counter to DDD. I think he's dicounting the massive power discrepency there since DDD kills zelda so much easier. Still. Zelda is built to handle DDD, just not destroy him.

 

[demodemo]

Ankoku, I want to make a small suggestion to the matchup list..

I don't think the list should be written with Zelda in it anymore, or have a sheik only list in addition to this one. However, I still think the knowledge of using sheik, zelda, or transform for matchups is still very important though.

That's because this is the sheik boards after all, and people who come here would come here because they are maining sheik because they like the way she plays, but this matchup chart does not give them a chance to main her purely.

Even if a matchup is clearly worse for sheik and it is clearly in the player's best interest to use Zelda, i think it would be informative to have numbers for sheik only, just so they know how badly they get *****.

For example, let's say I am completely Zelda-disabled. I am going to play a peach, but this matchup chart tells me to use Zelda. Since I am a sheik mainer, I decide to go against the odds and play with a handicap, but I don't know how hard it will be, because there are no numbers for just Sheik. Plus, how will a beginner ever know that IC's **** sheik?

I see your point in how it would be silly if you were to purposely worsen your chances of winning by not using Zelda, but i think we all worsened our chances of winning the day we decided to play sheik and not metaknight. Plus, sheik's game has since developed more viable KO options so transform is not the holy grail it used to be.

 

[Brinzy]

I think he's dicounting the massive power discrepency there since DDD kills zelda so much easier.

Honestly, I don't see why this matters much when it comes to D3. Zelda being light works both ways - she dies earlier (DDD grins), but now DDD can't chaingrab her. (DDD frowns)

I think those two factors alone cancel out the weight issues here. Oh, but no matter how you slice it, Zelda's hitting him with the most powerful aerials in the game. It's a chore to fight him on some stages in my opinion, but other than that, this fight isn't as bad as I originally thought it was. WiFi Zelda vs. DDD is definitely in his favor... but offline, it's a fun fight, for me.

And really, outside of DDD having the ability to kill Zelda earlier, what's keeping this from being, at the very least, 65:35? His aerials can be a bit of a pain at lower %s, but come on, you can consistently sweetspot him on his bair, and you're always getting the better deal. I don't care if 13% to Zelda means just about as much as 20% means to DDD; a sweetspotted kick is not a fair trade when superarmored attacks are not taken into consideration. His aerials don't even consistently kill Zelda. I have not done any testing for exact numbers, but I am sure that DDD's fresh aerials do not kill Zelda sooner than Zelda's kill him. He moves slow as hell in the air, he's a big target, he gets edgeguarded dirtily, he can't even outcamp friggin Din's, he can't consistently WoP Zelda, and he doesn't even hamper her approaches all that well. His grab and throws are still good, and he still has his killing power. I take his killing power into consideration not because it works oh-so-well against someone light like Zelda, but instead because he has comparable killing %s to Zelda... that is, when they're on the ground. If anything, they should be killing each other at around the same %s.

Also... once again, DDD cannot chaingrab Zelda, whereas Zelda can still dtilt lock DDD. There goes a ton of his stock right there. (Also, I say he's dying at 125% instead of 150% on average; dtilt -> Dsmash and then edgeguard, or just LK earlier. Might be 150% for at least one stock, though.)

 

[Zankoku]

Dedede is on advantage from his dthrow, unless the player is so braindead he doesn't remember how to techchase.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Dedede is on advantage from his dthrow, unless the player is so braindead he doesn't remember how to techchase.

most of them will just Bthrow anywat because it's so freaking strong damage wise.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Really? Most DDDs I know will always go for the techchase. The potential damage from a D Throw and the general advantageous position it gives you in the techchase usually make it better then the 16% B Air.

 

[Brinzy]

Dedede is on advantage from his dthrow, unless the player is so braindead he doesn't remember how to techchase.

I don't think I ever said that d-throw is worthless or anything. I just said that he cannot truly chaingrab Zelda.

 

[Zankoku]

most of them will just Bthrow anywat because it's so freaking strong damage wise.

Most of the braindead ones.

 

[Flamingo]

When I encounter the Bthrow, they are tryin to kill. I don't get it, DDD's Utilt is his best kill move IMO.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Most of the braindead ones.

no. generally speaking, zelda is going to be trying to attack DDD so he flies off the nearest edge. Since 95% of the time DDD grabs Zelda, it'll be from sheildgrabbong something, chances are, his back is facing the nearest ledge. Bthrow to attempted bair edgeguard normally weighs favourably compared to dthrow -> Ftilt

 

[Blistering Speed]

Lolwt? DDDs only option from D Throw is F Tilt? When DDD shieldgrabs you he's most likely right next to the edge with his back to it?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Lolwt? DDDs only option from D Throw is F Tilt? When DDD shieldgrabs you he's most likely right next to the edge with his back to it?

no it's not. but it's his most reliable option.

no of course not, but normally his back is closer to the ledge than his front

 

[Flamingo]

no it's not. but it's his most reliable option.

no of course not, but normally his back is closer to the ledge than his front

True, but why cant he just Fthrow->RAR if he is facing the ledge he is closest to?

 

[Zankoku]

fthrow sends upward if you DI it upward.

I don't see how bthrow just for some damage is more "reliable" than dthrow to going for a read.

 

[Brinzy]

What if b-throw is used to setup edgeguarding?

 

[Zankoku]

That doesn't exactly work at lower %s against Zelda.

 

[Neenja13]

Shiek is just a fun character to play. Needles ftw.

 

[Blistering Speed]

New layout is great Ankoku.

Can someone please explain Shiek being at a disadvantage to Jiggs? I have virtually no experience in that matchup, but I do know Jiggs sucks.

 

[Zankoku]

Jiggs has better aerial maneuverability, greater range (strange, I know), and can edgeguard Sheik's relatively straightforward recovery due to her multiple jumps. I dunno, it might be even, actually.

 

[B!ggad]

Did the Peaches agree to being at a small disadvantage against Zelda/Sheik?
I'd be surprised since it's not even Sheik's lack of killing power that makes the match up hard for her.

 

[demodemo]

good **** ankoku

I looked over the sheik numbers. Some are a bit conservative, but it definitely works.

edit- i have no experience against jiggs either, Ankoku needs to play bowyer more

 

[Snakeee]

Hey just to show that I do really play Sheik(/Zelda) lol

Singles:
1: Snakeee (Zero Suit Samus and Zelda/Sheik)
2: Yes! (Snake/Wario)
3: Inui (Meta Knight/Snake)
4: teh_spamerer (Meta Knight)
5: BlackWaltz (Olimar)
5: Keitaro (Falco)
7: Shadow (Meta Knight)
7: Izumi (Meta Knight)
9: Pierce7d (Marth)
9: Umbra (Meta Knight)
9: D1 (Falco)
9: Rookie (Fox)
13: Doom (Meta Knight)
13: RJ (Lucario)
13: PRiDE (Yoshi)
13: Magus (Luigi)
17: Juice (Olimar)
17: HolyChef (Ice Climbers/Meta Knight)
17: NinjaEdd (Falco/Diddy Kong)
17: Eazy (Marth)
17: Munk (Dedede)
17: Rend (?)
17: Mr. Ryu (Snake)
17: Malcom (Sonic)
25: Dumba (?)
25: Palpi (Ike)
25: Ryko (Ike)
25: Rockin (Meta Knight)
25: bschung (Dedede)
25: Melo (Ice Climbers)
25: Jil (?)

btw I agree about Jiggs. She can fight on par with Sheik for some reason.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Holy **** son, Zelda/Shiek's third win. Tell me you're using them often and tell me there are vids.

 

[Tristan_win]

Good **** Snakeee

^_^ I guess this is just another reason I need to fight you again so I can see how I stock up.

 

[demodemo]

oh ****

videos or it didn't happen

Spoiler

seriously are there any videos?

what did you use sheik/zelda for? to counterpick what character(s)?

 

[Kataefi]

Wow that's brilliant! Have you put these in the character rankings thread?

 

[Snakeee]

Thanks guys, but I don't think it can count as a win for them because I used ZSS more. I used Sheik/Zelda against Falco, Wolf, and on various characters on certain stages especially Delphino

And there aren't any vids, except maybe one or two on someone's Wii and I remember one of those I lost lol