Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[Wildfire393]

So, Dedede discussion:

Advantages that Sheik/Zelda have:
1) Both Sheik and Zelda are light enough that they avoid being chainthrown
2) Din's Fire is one of the few projectiles that can hurt Dedede through a Waddle Dee wall
3) Dedede's large frame makes him an easy target for Lightning Kicks
4) Dedede's Up-B recovery to the stage can be easily punished via Sheik's Up-B or Usmash tipper or by Zedla's Uair, Utilt, or Usmash. Dedede's Up-B recovery to the ledge can be fairly easily gimped by Fairs and Bairs, forcing him to go for the stage. Effectively, if you get him offstage and keep him from getting back just with his jumps, he's in trouble.
5) Dedede's high weight and falling speed makes him vulnerable to Ftilt locks, Chain-Drags, Zelda Usmash combos, etc.

Disadvantages that Sheik/Zelda have:
1) Despite not being able to chaingrab, Dedede's grabs are still pretty beastly. There aren't really any safe attacks on the shield, as he will be able to grab a properly spaced Sheik's Ftilt or Dtilt (or even Bair I believe) with his massive grab range and can backthrow for 16%
2) Waddle dees can hinder Sheik's mobility
3) Sheik and Zelda's low weights make them vulnerable to earlier deaths via Bairs and Utilts.
4) Dedede's heavy weight increases his survivability significantly.

So to sum up:
Sheik and Zelda have an effective combo game against Dedede and negate his primary combo. Additionally, Zelda's Projectile beats out Dedede's projectile, though Dedede's Projectile beats out Sheik's. Dedede is vulnerable during his recovery and vulnerable to Zelda's high-powered KO moves, but otherwise is unlikely to die easily, while the transforming duo are likely to meet and early death.

 

[Zankoku]

Do we have any opinions on the matchup numbers? I'm thinking it's pretty close to even.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Im saying Zelda 60:40
Shiek 50:50
Zelda/Shiek 60:40

 

[Zankoku]

Someone's definitely gonna have to show Zelda applying this advantage in practice, because I'm certainly not good enough to do so.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ahh... Reading from the posts Zelda seems lucky. She doesn't get ***** by D3 and actually has the advantage... Nice.

Maybe I should pick her up, since most of mains get screwed over.
(Wario, Luigi e.c.t)

Tallyho then.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Im saying Zelda 60:40
Shiek 50:50
Zelda/Shiek 60:40

I concur.

I'd say more, but I've said my piece.

however, beware getting counterpicked with stages: lylat, halberd and delfino can really screw zelda over.... course battlefield is always a nice counterpick we can use ourselves, and mansion is super nice too.

 

[-Mars-]

I don't think Sheik is even with DDD. I think DDD has a 60:40 on Sheik and Zelda has a 60:40 on him. I don't see why you would use Sheik/Zelda in this matchup.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't think Sheik is even with DDD. I think DDD has a 60:40 on Sheik and Zelda has a 60:40 on him. I don't see why you would use Sheik/Zelda in this matchup.

sheik can combo him and keep zelda's moves fresh, but I concur. Zelda alone is just fine. sheik has a lot of trouble killing the bloke

 

[Zankoku]

The fact that Sheik can combo Dedede is kind of offset by the fact that there's literally nothing Sheik can do for a combo that's actually safe on shield against Dedede's monster grab range. Any attempts to start a combo is risking punishment out of shield.

 

[demodemo]

remember, characters cant shield in the air

so i treat dedede much like other heavyweight characters, just a lot of abuse in the front while in the air. dedede's fair is too slow to defend against sheiks fair, so you can kind of mess with him in the air. if he airdodges and gets to the ground, you can try utilt to get him back in the air. you can spam a lot of moves without moving since he is so friggen huge. once (by accident) i did a dthrow>dair and both hit (even though he could have airdodge, but that is not my point) which just goes to show you how easy it is for sheik to get hits on him. plus, the two hit usmash is mad easy to get on this fatty

if you are really afraid of getting shield grabbed when he lands, grab him right when you reach the ground

surprisingly he is hard to gimp/kill because of his multiple jumps, so you sorta kinda have to switch to zelda. i dont know how else you can kill him really lol. the usmash just doesnt work, i think even a tipper would take 130%+ to kill.

i say 45-55 for sheik and 65-35 sheik/zelda. i don't think the matchup is even for sheik, because i can get a dedede to like 200%+ and he can still take a stock or two off me at that percent. lame.

not a super amazing zelda, but i would say 60-40 as well. I have never used zelda only against dedede so this is just speculation. However, my sheik seems to rack up the damage pretty fast, so yeah.

 

[-Mars-]

I happen to think Bowser and DK both have advantages on Sheik. They have great OoS options, they KO us early, edgeguarding is nearly impossible, they outprioritize, they live forever, they outrange.......I really think these two matchups are difficult.

Needle camping is a decent option I suppose, but Bowser and DK are accustomed to dealing with camping in every match they partake in.

The chain doesn't work in these matchups either due to the SA on their upb's.

You can tilt lock for a long amount of time, but it's not uncommon for Bowser and DK to be living to 180% against Sheik.

Are we just allowed to discuss any matchup at any time? I'm really confused a sto how this matchup thread is supposed to work.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Personally, I still think that Zelda doesn't have the advantage over D3.

About Bowser and DK: I think DK has the advantage over both Zelda and Sheik but Zelda has the advantage over Bowser.

 

[Zankoku]

marsulas: We can discuss whatever, whenever.

Regarding DK, just **** him to 80% and then make sure not to get hit. Sheik's usmash KOs DK pretty early, or you can just keep hitting him around until a dsmash would KO.

Regarding Bowser, I have no idea.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've actually never had trouble with DK. needle camping and comboing him to high damages aren't really that hard. Sheikd doesn't have a LOT of KOing power, but DACUS kills. So down Down+B. and both DK and Bowser are large oponents meaning zelda doesn't have a whole lot of trouble hitting them with something strong enough to kill them.

I don't think the matchups are in our advantage as much as a lot of peoplw ate for granted that they are, but I still think we have an advantage

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think you underrate DKs abilities. "Just combo him to 80%, needle camp and then KO him with an usmash". If it worked like that Sheik would be top tier.

Way to ignore that DK has massive advantages in weigth, range, KO power, grab game and the fact that he loses speed only by a small margin.


Give other characters more credit. They deserve it

 

[Zankoku]

You can't combo DK to 80% (I wish you could), but Sheik does all sorts of stuff to him up until that percent. After that percent, though, things no longer really link together and it gets harder because DK outranges you and you're constantly going back to neutral positions.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I misread your post then. You didn't say "combo". You said "****" which still makes things look a lot easier than they actually are.

 

[Zankoku]

When you deal 80% damage and take maybe two jabs and an ftilt in between all that, it certainly does feel like ****. Peppering lots of short ftilt combos and other things is very effective until DK reaches a high enough % that he can escape any followups.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I misread your post then. You didn't say "combo". You said "****" which still makes things look a lot easier than they actually are.

it takes more skill than simply comboing, but it's certainly not out of sheik's abilities. having te fastest attacks in the game really helps to hit things. Sheik might not do a lot of damage at any given time, but sure has the capability to do a lot over time. DK's got a frustrating amount of range, but we're faster once we're inside the range and we've got projectiles outside of the range. I suppose it's a bit difficult to approach the beast without the aid of platforms, but if you are having trouble doing it, can't you just make him come to you with needles?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DK has to approach obviously. But it's not like he has to get into Sheiks range. He just has to get her into his range. From that moment it's Sheik who has to approach. Sheik is best off by playing hit + run and then waiting for a mistake / opening.

Maybe DK doesn't have an advantage but I think so. I'm pretty sure he beats Zelda. Sheik might be neutral or a tad in either ones favour but overall I'd give DK the advantage. Either way Sheik is the better choice.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

DK has to approach obviously. But it's not like he has to get into Sheiks range. He just has to get her into his range. From that moment it's Sheik who has to approach. Sheik is best off by playing hit + run and then waiting for a mistake / opening.

Maybe DK doesn't have an advantage but I think so. I'm pretty sure he beats Zelda. Sheik might be neutral or a tad in either ones favour but overall I'd give DK the advantage. Either way Sheik is the better choice.

I disagree. DK has range, but in the air he's completely vulnerable from the front. that means he's lightning kick food. it's not like we'll be landing them often, but platform chases against the big ape and dogfights in the air in which DK's front is exposed give lighting kicks more opportunities to land than normal. and he's so big that shorthopping them OoS will normally yeild the desired result.

DK's got a little range on zelda and also has power and weight, so it's tough for her. but on stages with platforms zelda seems to have a lot of options against DK.

Regardless, Zelda has no trouble landing a kill move. The right choice for DK is normally sheik AND Zelda. Sheik can get DK to 100% with a favourable exchange of damage. then all it takes is one solid hit and sheik can run away and transform.

when both characters are used in tandem, there's no way this isn't their advanatge. especially since DK's recovery is so vulnerable if zelda sends him flying. If zelda dsmashes him he's either got to use it early and risk usmash, utilt or uair. and if he tries to sweetspot the ledge, he's dair bait. don't get me wrong. normally it's a very safe recovery. but zelda can put him in a bad position

 

[-Mars-]

Zelda's fantastic OoS options make her viable against all of the heavyweights excluding Snake. One powershield of a smash attack or even a missed grab and your eating a lightning kick to the face. I think Zelda does very well vs. DK and Bowser, she has an advantage on Bowser and the DK matchup is either even or slightly in DK's favor. I agree platforms aid her in the DK matchup immensely, juggling DK with Zelda is no problem and the platforms aid her in approach options.

Personally I would rather bring Zelda into the mix instead of just staying Sheik, DACUS is nice and all, but landing a tipper is extremely difficult against these two. If the ftilt's decayed, you could but getting inside once your in KO range is hard. Especially DK who has great pokes.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

well for the reasons I stated I think Zelda is at least slightly advantaged against both chacrters and I would consider it at least a 60:40 advantage if zelda throws sheik into the mix.

 

[Zankoku]

I'd agree with either +1 or +2 against DK, using Zelda+Sheik. I don't know of any DK players by name, though, so I might have to ask the DK boards for verification on this matchup later.

 

[Rawr_]

Sheik has the advantage against DK imo, she can combo him pretty easily and his vertical recovery is pretty bad once his second jump is gone. If you get him a decent distance below the edge, you pretty much just ledgehog with the chain and he's out.

 

[demodemo]

do random moves while close to big characters, and they will probably hit

that is my logic, and it always works

no seriously, at low percentages, nearly all of sheiks attacks link to one another lol, and if at a percentage high enough, dk won't be able to shield grab. plus, dk's dair is too slow to protect against sheik juggle, meaning (like many other big characters) they must airdodge to the ground.

plus, if you get a running usmash in, chances are that it will be the two hit, which is a nice 30%

 

[Blistering Speed]

Just to point out, dont underestimate a good Bowser, especially if they know to play defensively cleverly i.e. Out of your range but not too far away that you can needle safely. Klaw, SH Fair and Fortress OOS are all very good along with his general tilts. Does he have any grab release on Shiek?

 

[-Mars-]

Bowser has grab release stuff on every character in the game. I'm not underestimating Bowser at all...........I know how good he can be. people are even beginning to realize that he does decent vs. MK.

 

[fox219]

This is good IMO

except

why is Toon Link easy, but ordinary Link favorable?

Many think mario is harder than luigi on ganondork

 

[fox219]

Bowser has grab release stuff on every character in the game. I'm not underestimating Bowser at all...........I know how good he can be. people are even beginning to realize that he does decent vs. MK.

Totally agreed! My noobie friend's bowser killed my decent falco (4 months ago). I can kick his * now.

 

[M@v]

I always use Zelda, not sheik, vs DDD. Im pretty sure Zelda goes 6:4 vs DDD. Thunder kick owns him, and dsmash speed comes in handy. Dins can go right past waddle spam.

 

[-dMT-]

Chain some Zelda upsmashes at low percents... lovin it :D

Nice new refreshing post btw Ankoku. Good to have the matchups back.

 

[imdavid]

**** it mewtwo i have no strategies against him

 

[<π]

Back to Dedede he can't just camp in his shield against you and wait for a chain grab. It is not hard to bait D3 into shielding just wait and you can shield poke him easy, since he is so big, with either bair fair or dtilt. hang out in and out of his ftilt range pop needles punish tilts and waddles with aerials and needles. if you scare him into his shield depending on size meet with needles and just hang out just outside of his grab range.

play aggressive be defensive.

 

[Tristan_win]

Fought a De3 again today and I still think sheik counter the **** out of him, you ftilt away his weedles and needle camp him. If he tries to approach in the air with a bair utilt it or even time a ftilt and you will win.

Yes you need zelda for the kill for the most part unless you like waiting till 150% but just as long as you play safe there doesn't seem much de3 can do against sheik.

 

[demodemo]

^agreed

its fun doing ftilt > uair on dedede ye

did you try killing him with sheik tristan? Last time i played a dedede i went all sheik, and killing his first stock at 200%ish lol

 

[Palpi]

Is sheiks dash grab good enough to bait d3 into shielding the quickly dash grab, if you are right outside d3's ftilt range? If so you use a grab to combo some aerial game. Probably a risky move.

 

[Zankoku]

All standing grabs (shieldgrab at nothing) have more range than running grabs. Dedede can punish from spotdodging a grab.

Running grab is a viable mixup, but not usable as your only option.

 

[Tristan_win]

^agreed

its fun doing ftilt > uair on dedede ye

did you try killing him with sheik tristan? Last time i played a dedede i went all sheik, and killing his first stock at 200%ish lol

After he got to 180% on his first stock I switch to Zelda and started doing that for then on at 110% or so.

 

[-Mars-]

Fought a De3 again today and I still think sheik counter the **** out of him, you ftilt away his weedles and needle camp him. If he tries to approach in the air with a bair utilt it or even time a ftilt and you will win.

Yes you need zelda for the kill for the most part unless you like waiting till 150% but just as long as you play safe there doesn't seem much de3 can do against sheik.

Maybe i'm in the wrong on this, but I think DDD still wins. If utilt and ftilt beat bair, that helps a ton but he still has plenty of things in his favor. He still kills Sheik early and (imo) beats her offstage. He gets on a good close stage like BF or SV and needle camping becomes less of a problem. It's not like he can't just take to the air against needles anyway and his multiple jumps allow him to stay just out of range but just enough in range to keep us wary of his dair. He gets in that ftilt/shieldgrab range and we have to retreat.