Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[Zankoku]

I don't think there's a single matchup thread devoid of bias. Marth's matchup thread comes close because at least they get like 50 billion people from BOTH sides discussing it. For some reason we've got no Dedede's contributing to this, and as I said earlier, I'm not adding/altering a number until we get agreement from both sides.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

^_^;; The 45:55 may be my fault ^-^;; sowwy :3 We'll REDISCUSS once we finish with ther others :o
Or a problem arises ;3

don't fret... it's no worse than 65:35... so at most you are off by 10.

 

[Zankoku]

Being off by 10 can be pretty significant. 60:40 is a slight advantage. 70:30 is a hard counter. The only time it wouldn't really mean too much would be something like putting a 90:10 when it should be 100:0.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Being off by 10 can be pretty significant. 60:40 is a slight advantage. 70:30 is a hard counter. The only time it wouldn't really mean too much would be something like putting a 90:10 when it should be 100:0.

heh... good point. regardless, I would say we were fairly close. maybe bump it up to 60:40 because MK is gay. (no not in a good way.) ten might be a considerable amount... but when it's 10 at the worst, then I don't think it's so bad... because it might not even be off by that much. it's not like we were saying it's zelda's advantage or anything! <.<

 

[M@v]

Zelda and sheik do good against DDD, for reasons already stated. Thunder kick is super easy to land, making it so much easier for Zelda.

And Gheb, you are the worst debater on the boards and possibly the biggest noob. Seriously. When you tried to argue snake ***** fox, we gave you fact after fact, and tourney result after tourney result, but it took forever to get through your head.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I dont agree with the above poster, sheik is ***** by DDD. But i do agree that zelda ***** DDD.

 

[3xSwords]

Isn't Sheik the one that counters D3 more than Zelda?

for what reason TLM?

 

[TLMSheikant]

Well i have trouble as sheik against my friend's DDD. Since she cant kill, cant camp with needles and her approaches arent safe even with good spacing due to DDD's grab range. Zelda on the other hand has all the tools to destroy D3. Including power, dins fire, more speed than him, cant be chain grabbed and can even gimp him easily with dair or if hes landing on stage he'll eat her godly (in power) uair.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

sheik does okay as long as you're willing to switch to Zelda to KO

I'm lazy... I can't remember if any of this ois overly biased:

okay... much like the status of the matchup... I'd say please do not put a recomended stage until we agree on one.

okay DDD.... Zelda beats him... and bad.

• DDD, unlike other large characters, is often airborne. making him VERY suseptable to lighting kicks and Uair.
  
• He also tends to rely on aerial approaches... making him VERY susceptible to her Upsmash.
  
• He can't outcamp her with waddle dees like he can most people because Din's >>> waddle dees. (in this matchup at least)
  
• His recovery... THAT'S the big thing. Other big charcters don't have the same predicatbale, vulnerable recovery that he does.... seriously... as long as Zelda's not in a compramising position, she should be able to punish a recovering DDD with fair, bair, uair, Usmash, Utilt, Fsmash or shield grab EVERY time.
  
• Also, DDD has rather poor attack speed meaning even if he's inside of Din's fire's most effective range, Zelda still ahs the advantage due to having strong attacks that ar MUCH quicker.
  
• DDD is entirely too large to DI out of her smashes often, if at all.
  
• DDD can't effectively edgehog her due to his poor airspeed and her recovery's ability to teleport.
  
• DDD's normally very reliable bair just gets outprioritized by Usmash, utilt or a well timed lightning kick.
  
• DDD cannot chain grab zelda.

Seriously... what does DDD have going for him at ALL here?
on a different point... let's look at what makes DDD a good character
- he's heavy
- he's Strong
- He's got a good recovery
- He has a spammy projectile that counters most other porjectiles
- He has good range
- He's frustrating to approach.
- Has aWoP
- Has a Chain grab


... now let's look at what zelda has to say about each point in turn
-So he's heavy? This is still true Vs. Zelda... but the fact that she can compete with IKE for total number of kill moves and that he's a giant, wobbling target makes this advantage one that DDD can't rely on like a crutch.
-yes... he's strong.. so Zelda has to watch out... luckily, it'll be hard for him to land those strong moves, but Zelda's light... this is still n advantage.
-It's a good recovery... but it's also a very PUNISHABLE recovery... and, oh, Zelda CAN punish it.
- His projectile is significantly outspammed by din's fire.
- Zelda has good range too... and hers comes with more reliable speed meaning that some of his biggest moves just won't likely connect.
-Luckily... Zelda doesn't have to approach... DDD does... and his approach game is... lakcing... at best
- WoP is nigh useless against Zelda's recovery because, for all its faults, it DOES still succede in teleporting right thorough enemies.
- nanananana... you can't chain grab Zelda.




So... it's not JUST that Zelda does well against him... it's ALSO... maybe even moreseo that she counters all his reliable benefits.



now as for stages... Unless you pick a DDD friendly AND anti-zelda stage, I think you'll be fine.

I honestly don't have a huge preference here:
Luigi's mansion, Battlefield, Smashville and Final Destination all have their advatages and I like all of them for different reasons with the matchup... I just don't like lylat cruise for it.

as for the numerical value of the matchup.... it's heavily in zelda's favour... 70:30 I'd say. maybe once zelda's get better it'll be even worse for DDD since Zelda literally has about everything on him in this matchup.

*leaves to go to class.*

 

[3xSwords]

zelda's recovery is not difficult to gimp. Especially for a character with multiple jumps like D3. The key to gimping her is hitting her during the beginning of the move, even if it seems like one is too late, if he just throws out an attack just as she is about to disappear he will hit her out of it.

Which is why Zelda can be WoP'd b/c she won't be able to get out once in it, due to mediocre pre lag.

D3's recovery is not THAT predictable. Mixing up between canceling the upB, when you cancel the upB, and not canceling at all is enough to say that every time D3 does his upB =/= death or auto damage.

D3 does not do badly on the ground. Last time I checked his dtilt is fast, powerful and has more range than any of Zelda's options, save maybe f-smash. Any shielded aerial generally = grab. Which leads me to say that as long as D3 stays grounded he will be fairly well off against Zelda. That said D3 should not be approaching from the air.

D3 also has some good setups. d-throw, being the occasional tech chase, and u-throw. U-throw can really hurt Zelda because she has very few options from below. D3's uair beats everything you have, and the only safe option is to FF air dodge. Even then due to D3's ridiculous fall speed and 0 post lag on aerials he will probably catch you with a FF bair.

That being said, I believe for D3 this a matchup where he is forced to play unlike what he is used to and not being able to get the auto damage from his CG makes it difficult for D3. But when played properly D3 vs Zelda is closer to even. 55:45 or 60:40 Zelda.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Yeah Zelda is one of th easiest charas to WoP with bair because farore's wind has some startup lag which can be abused. If she's used her second jump she will get bair WoP'd by good D3's like 95% of the time. So D3 does have something on zelda at least, i say it is 60:40 zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

despite having multiple jumps, DDD has the lowest air speed of any charcter in the game... so unless zelda's an idiot, DDD will NOT be able to make it to her to gimp her. it just won't be happening. He CAN make it out to her once in a while, but if she teleports through him, it's BAD news for DDD because now HE'S in an awful position.

AND DDD's recovery is horibly predictable. I don't know what you're taliking about.

 

[3xSwords]

In what way is his recovery predictable?

I see what you mean about the gimping with bair. So in that situation D3 should just throw a waddle dee instead of trying to go gimp her. And punishing any predictability.

However, WoP is still viable. As most of the time WoP is set up right after a throw that sends them off the edge. From there D3 is close enough that Zelda won't have enough time to farore wind away.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Yes DDD's recovery IS predictable. But zelda's is too. And WoP is still a possibility even with his bad aerial movement (speed).

 

[Blistering Speed]

''Sheik is an EXCELLENT counter to DDD''

The only contribution KishSquared made to the Weekly Character Discussion for Shiek.

Not saying that makes it fact, but it's strange that's the one point he'd make. Maybe he was just going off a 'Shiek = good stringer, DDD = Big person' mindset

 

[3xSwords]

I'm not asking "Is D3's recovery predictable"

I'm asking "In what way is it predictable and how do you punish it, considering all the mixups he can do with his upB also"

This is a matchup discussion, so even blatantly obvious questions should be answered with detail.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Because he has 2 options: cancelling his upB to grab the ledge or continue his upB to land on the stage hoping no punishment. If he cancels u have the option to edge hog him, if not then he eats zelda's upair. Im not saying its easy, but with good predicition his recovery is punishable.

 

[3xSwords]

Not canceling the upB does not mean u-air. In fact this only happens if D3 recovers high. If D3 recovers lower than Zelda's only good option becomes the u-smash which won't kill D3 unless he is @ really high %'s. Also instant upB canceling imo is quick enough that Zelda won't be able to react to it in time. And if he cancels nothing stops him from just landing on the stage while you go for the edge hog.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

short hop bair, fair as well as Usmash and Utilt will **** a DDD who is low. Hell, even Fsmash works.

 

[The Great Leon]

Not canceling the upB does not mean u-air. In fact this only happens if D3 recovers high. If D3 recovers lower than Zelda's only good option becomes the u-smash which won't kill D3 unless he is @ really high %'s. Also instant upB canceling imo is quick enough that Zelda won't be able to react to it in time. And if he cancels nothing stops him from just landing on the stage while you go for the edge hog.

if you stand riht next tothe ledge you have time to react. even though you may not kill him any time you want, thats a far cry from saying he's difficult to punish

 

[-Mars-]

Originally posted by Gheb:

"Who are you to say such a thing? You spread misinformation all over the place, here and in the Fox boards. And you accuse me, who runs one of the most accurate match-up threads (aside from the Marth and hopefully Sheik boards) of not knowing what I'm saying?"

Sorry but just one more thing........your matchup thread considers 55:45 as a nuetral matchup.........that's laughable.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Why is it laughable? That's fairly common practice for 55:45 to be considered a neutral matchup, or so I thought, correct me if Im wrong.

 

[Zankoku]

Counting 55:45 matchups as neutral completely takes out the meaning behind those 5 points in the first place. You're basically saying that a matchup shouldn't be rated any more accurately than to the nearest 10 points.

 

[viparagon]

yeah he just means its CLOSE to neutral, but gheb should still GTFO

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Counting 55:45 matchups as neutral completely takes out the meaning behind those 5 points in the first place. You're basically saying that a matchup shouldn't be rated any more accurately than to the nearest 10 points.

at this early point in the metagame though... who's to say that we can count on those 5 pts being accurate? just sayin.

that, and it makes it a lot easier to look at at a distance, though I muchly prefer this thread's way of rating matchups.

 

[Flamingo777]

Counting 55:45 matchups as neutral completely takes out the meaning behind those 5 points in the first place. You're basically saying that a matchup shouldn't be rated any more accurately than to the nearest 10 points.

I think that a matchup can only be calculated by odds of multiples of ten, you have to remember those random trips and footstools that get you when you least expect it. >.<

 

[Zankoku]

Resolution is more important than accounting for Brawl sucking.

 

[Ominous]

in there the people that are ment to be hard are like easy lol

 

[Blistering Speed]

in there the people that are ment to be hard are like easy lol

God he's right, what idiots we've been. Redo everything.

Back up statements with reasons.

 

[PKNintendo]

Lol at G-dorf. If I ever see a Sheik at a tourney, Im wipping out G-dorf to see how fast they can beat me.

 

[Gates]

Sorry but just one more thing........your matchup thread considers 55:45 as a nuetral matchup.........that's laughable.

Excuse me? Is there something wrong with 55:45 being considered neutral? 55:45 in my opinion merely signifies a slight advantage that gives one character enough of an advantage for it to not be considered completely even but not so much that it's tipped significantly in one person's favor. Just because it's not exactly 50:50 doesn't mean it's an easy matchup on the same line as 60:40.

If you want to discuss this issue more, PM me. I run the Dedede matchup thread.

ON TOPIC:
I played Zelda for about 6 weeks straight after Brawl came out so I probably know her better than most of the other Dedede mains (no offense guys). I'd say that this is definitely in Zelda and Sheik's favor. In this matchup I would actually start as Zelda to force an approach out of Dedede and then switch to Sheik to combo him at close range (I'd switch to Sheik by the end of the first stock at the latest). The problem with starting as Sheik is that it makes the Dedede player ok with just doing what they usually do, camping. If you start as Sheik, the Dedede player will just do the usual Waddle Dee, ftilt, bair, sheildgrab bthrow plan that they always do. Many less skilled Dededes are bad at approaching though, so camping with Zelda will throw them off enough for them to get them where you want them. Some may even panic and try to outcamp you, which is lulzy. I guess if I had to throw numbers in here, 60:40 for all options.

 

[-Mars-]

Excuse me? Is there something wrong with 55:45 being considered neutral? 55:45 in my opinion merely signifies a slight advantage that gives one character enough of an advantage for it to not be considered completely even but not so much that it's tipped significantly in one person's favor. Just because it's not exactly 50:50 doesn't mean it's an easy matchup on the same line as 60:40.

If you want to discuss this issue more, PM me. I run the Dedede matchup thread.

ON TOPIC:
I played Zelda for about 6 weeks straight after Brawl came out so I probably know her better than most of the other Dedede mains (no offense guys). I'd say that this is definitely in Zelda and Sheik's favor. In this matchup I would actually start as Zelda to force an approach out of Dedede and then switch to Sheik to combo him at close range (I'd switch to Sheik by the end of the first stock at the latest). The problem with starting as Sheik is that it makes the Dedede player ok with just doing what they usually do, camping. If you start as Sheik, the Dedede player will just do the usual Waddle Dee, ftilt, bair, sheildgrab bthrow plan that they always do. Many less skilled Dededes are bad at approaching though, so camping with Zelda will throw them off enough for them to get them where you want them. Some may even panic and try to outcamp you, which is lulzy. I guess if I had to throw numbers in here, 60:40 for all options.

Ankoku said it best in another thread I was viewing: If 55:45 is neutral, then why not 56:44, and 57:43, and hell why not 60:40?

 

[Gates]

Ankoku said it best in another thread I was viewing: If 55:45 is neutral, then why not 56:44, and 57:43, and hell why not 60:40?

That's just nitpicking, and ridiculous nitpicking at that. Most matchup threads round to 5 for practicality purposes. If you want to really get them down to increments of 1, you'd have to grind thousands of matches and compile every piece of data on both characters in question, which they couldn't even fully do in Melee after 7 years. On top of that, these numbers are only meant to convey generalities. Like I said before, 50:50 is exactly even, 55:45 is a slight advantage, 60:40 is a solid advantage, and 70:30 is a large advantage. However, making 7 different categories as opposed to just 5 complicates things too much. If the advantage is really only so slight that it's barely more than negligible, it's easier to just say that the matchup is neutral.

And where did Ankoku say this exactly?

And again, PM me with your response. I don't want to derail the thread.

 

[Zankoku]

All I said was that classifying 55:45 as neutral pretty much eliminated the point of even having a 55:45; just list it as 50:50 if you're unwilling to concede to the ratio indicating an advantage.

Anyway, why would selecting Sheik at the beginning be a poor idea? I must be missing something here, because I'm pretty sure Sheik is quite able to camp with her needles as well.

 

[Gates]

All I said was that classifying 55:45 as neutral pretty much eliminated the point of even having a 55:45; just list it as 50:50 if you're unwilling to concede to the ratio indicating an advantage.

Technically nothing can be purely, statistically even anyway. There's going to be slight nuances that could tip the scales one way or another. In the grand scheme of things, a 5 point advantage is nothing.

Whatever, I'm tired of arguing this. I misconstrued what Gheb was originally saying anyway.

Anyway, why would selecting Sheik at the beginning be a poor idea? I must be missing something here, because I'm pretty sure Sheik is quite able to camp with her needles as well.

I'm not saying that it's a bad idea, I just think starting with Zelda is better. I'm not saying Sheik can't camp with needles, I'm just saying that Zelda can camp better since she never has to worry about Waddle Dees blocking her projectiles. You're certainly welcome to do either.

 

[demodemo]

ok guise, i am having a little bit of trouble against normal link

i mean, once hes offstage hes dead meat, but i don't know how to approach him o_O??

i am using my bair and my fair, it just isnt working (link's usmash). i also have trouble needle camping since his boomerang and bombs are really disruptive.

if this has been mentioned before, sorry, i am hesitant to go through the pages since i have read most of it anyway, but don't remember any deep analysis on link.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

secret:
link is actually good if you are playing his game.

he's got a lot of range, a lot of priority, a lot of projectile options and heavy hits as well as a heavy frame.

but he can't approach very well at all. throw him off his game and he's toast. he's slow, he's not agile and he falls like a brick. it might not be fun, but... needles?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Couldn't have said it better 'Dont play his game'.

A defensive Link can be veeryy annoying and you've got to be constantly out of range of his **** annoying Z Air, but other then that you can see everything he does coming a mile away. He can't camp you with projectiles so just gay him with needles until he's forced to approach.

Things to do:
-Make him come to you
-Wait just outside Z Air range and then get in, I find Dash Attack works well here.
-When you're inside his range you should destroy him, you're faster then him in practically every concievable way, Use general tilts to **** his heavy ***.
-When he's off the edge, he should be dead, no exceptions.

A pretty easy match, 65:35. Also if you're Zelda/Shiek, I usually find Zelda isn't necessary in this match considering kills by edgeguard are so easy.

 

[demodemo]

:\ i have trouble camping against link lol. maybe i suck with needles

but i will try dash attack, thx

 

[PKNintendo]

I'm not analyzing subpar matchups where you decide to go all Sheik against Ice Climbers or all Zelda against Ike because if you're forgoing a good half of your moveset in exchange for a WORSE matchup then it's your own ****ed fault and I'm not going to tell you how to handle a matchup that you're making worse on your own volition.

Win. Just win.