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Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

Snakeee

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Sure Ankoku, I'll give my input on this.

Basically Shiek is much more of a problem for ZSS than Zelda is. Her needles are much faster than anything ZSS can pull out which makes for a strong advantage. If ZSS decides to go for a forward B, and the Sheik player is good at predicting/reacting to that they can run and powershield a good amount of the time. Sheik can then bridge the distance gap pretty easily and she is better at close range combat than ZSS. ZSS cannot really be f-tilt locked much, but f-tilt is still quick and a good set up move.

Sheik's quick edgeguarding game may gimp ZSS once in a blue moon, but other than that it's going to be a bit tough to get the kill without switching to Zelda. A solid upsmash can also do the trick sometimes too though.

Zelda on the other hand, is too slow to handle ZSS well. ZSS' camping is better than Zelda's Dins fire, although that move can still be useful especially if ZSS short hop side-Bs a lot. Zelda also gets comboed badly if sent in the air. This is almost always a problem for Zelda, but ZSS' aerial game is ridiculously good so it makes matters much worse. ZSS' edgeguarding destroys Zelda as well.

Zelda has to play a stong defensive game to have a chance against ZSS, but the best bet is to use both Sheik and Zelda IMO.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head. If anyone has any specific questions post up
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I don't have time to go into detail now because I'm on the way out the door for class. But I normally go straight sheik against yoshi. I suppose using Zelda to KO is a very valid option. though... what are your thoughts Ankoku?

I'll write more when I get back, but I greatly prefer sheik.... maybe it's stage dependent though.
 

choknater

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zss is a balanced ranged fighter with mediocre options in the close range

all sheik needs to do is get past her ranged attacks (namely... side-B, laser, fsmash, other stuff) and at the close range its a matter of who hits first. sheik's close range is a little bit better... zss has a good jab combo and a fast utilt and dtilt and stuff, but all of sheik's stuff is stronger. and sheik has the speed in her ground smashes also, while zss has distance type ground smashes.

i'd say this is a 55:45 or 60:40 in sheik's favor

therefore

i'm gonna say that it's 57:43

i'll give ZSS the benefit of the doubt since she's kinda cute and scantily clad just like sheik... so i will give them 57:43 sheik instead of 58:42
 

Zankoku

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I don't have time to go into detail now because I'm on the way out the door for class. But I normally go straight sheik against yoshi. I suppose using Zelda to KO is a very valid option. though... what are your thoughts Ankoku?

I'll write more when I get back, but I greatly prefer sheik.... maybe it's stage dependent though.
Yoshi is an annoying matchup for both Sheik and Zelda, and is relatively difficult to edgeguard to any useful effect besides more damage. That's all I have on the matchup, really.
 

Zankoku

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Damage is damage, of course. But it isn't fatal, which is why I typically transform for the KO.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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My opinion of the matchup:

-Both Sheik and Zelda force an approach from yoshi. his eggs are too easy to countercamp. Needles for sheik and nayru's or din's from zelda... easy.

-Zelda's defensive game pretty well stops most of yoshi's approaches, and, one off the edge, Zelda can kill yoshi with aerials pretty well.

-Sheik can't kill as easily, but can combo yoshi really well. Also Dtilt->Ftilt->Usmash or Ftilt->Ftilt->Usmash work often enough to make it so that sheik can KO yoshi. Zelda might be able to kill yoshi quicker, but Sheik can do it.


-The problem arises if yoshi ever gets momentum. Especially on Halberd, Delfino or Lylat. Zelda has a really hard time breaking that momentum. Sheik does not. Zelda can't safely land easily and gets juggled all around.... and really has to fear uair. Sheik can much more safely regain footing and reset momentum.


I think Zelda/Sheik CAN work QUICKER... i.e. can kill yoshi earlier... but I think sheik is a lot harder for yoshi to kill. It might not work as fast, but I think sheik is more of a sure thing. I'd rather the match go on for over 5 or 6 minutes and win pretty much all the time than to risk losing to get the match over quicker... at least that's MY experience with the matchup.
 

Blistering Speed

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^No, that's what this topic is for.

Yoshi : Shiek = 45:55
Yoshi : Zelda = 60:40
Yoshi : S+Z = 40:60

ZSS : Zelda = 60:40
ZSS : Shiek = 40:60
ZSS : S+Z = 65:35
 

~ Gheb ~

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I don't think vs MK is a -3. Sheik can actually do quite a lot vs him imo.

A grab release (which is always a jump release in MKs case) is a free boost smash and it kills at ~90%. With lots of needle camping you can go very far, especially if you can DI out of the tornado. I also think her recovery is one of the more useful ones against MK...
 

Zankoku

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None of that really matters if Meta Knight has equal attack speed and more range while he's at it. >_>

It's a winnable matchup, but by no means anything even close to even or slight disadvantage.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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meta could conceivably drop to -2 for Z/S.... but that's as good as it's going to get sadly -_-
 

Snakeee

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I think Meta is a close match up for Sheik, the main problem is Metaknights gimping ability IMO. Well it helps if you use Zelda for the kills. I do quite well against Meta with her/them.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I think Meta is a close match up for Sheik, the main problem is Metaknights gimping ability IMO. Well it helps if you use Zelda for the kills. I do quite well against Meta with her/them.
yeah. honestly I don't have too much trouble wracking up damage against meta as sheik... it's the KO that's the problem and Zelda can do that pretty well.

Even so... he's metaknight... and is tough.
 

Blistering Speed

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People theorise until they're blue in the face, but in the foreseeable future it's never going to be better then 60 : 40 and I think Im being generous at that.
 

-Mars-

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Lol @ Choknater.

I personally feel that Sheik does decent against MK, out of all the cast Sheik is most likely in the top 20% against him.

Chain to stop any approaches.......probably will get criticized for saying this, but I really think the chain is useful in the MK matchup. SH'ing the chain will halt a lot of the things MK can do to you.

If you land a grab anywhere from 90-100%, MK is dead from DACUS on most stages.

One needle stops tornado, granted MK players only use Mach when they're sure you can do nothing against it but it still deserves mentioning.

Needle camping can rack up decent damage.

You can still ftilt that b**** to decent percentages and finish with an usmash in most cases.

Offstage............. ****,well lets just say that Sheik does better than most characters.

Am I crazy to think that this matchup is only 60:40?
 

PKNintendo

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YEAH! It's back!
XD at Sheik vs Mewtwo. Looks like Sheik is screwed when facing him.


Anyway, why is Fox at +5. Does Sheik have some crazy downthrow, Ftilt combo on him? (just curious)

This system is win.

Would you say +3 would be 7-3 for Sheik on whoever she faces?


EDIT: I got the Fox matchup. He's light, and kills of the top, ***** by tilt lock e.c.t.

At least Ness does better against Sheikza than Fox :)
 

Zankoku

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+3 is 6.5-3.5. Viewing 7-3 as hard counter, +/- 3 is the hardest matchup anyone with a reasonable mind should consider playing before switching to a secondary.
 

PKNintendo

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+3 is 6.5-3.5. Viewing 7-3 as hard counter, +/- 3 is the hardest matchup anyone with a reasonable mind should consider playing before switching to a secondary.
Okay. So Fox is pretty screwed when playing against Sheik. OUCH.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Am I crazy to think that this matchup is only 60:40?
no... I don't think you are... and on a stage where you can't grab release DACUS, Zelda can normally be counted on to remove a stock.

I really think that if you make use of everything at your disposal in the matchup, that MK v. Zelda/Sheik is completely winnable.
 

Zankoku

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If I thought it was unwinnable it would've been -4.

However, Meta Knight is definitely not on the same order of difficulty as Marth and Lucario.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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no.. you're right... but I'm saying he's not crazy... there's not a huge difference between 65:35 and 60:40
 

Blistering Speed

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I call for DDD to be discussed next.

Shiek and Zelda are the way to go IMO, 60:40 our favour and I think you should switch Zelda in pretty early in the stock.
 

Snakeee

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Hmm, I used to enjoy using Sheik/Zelda against DDD but top DDD players give me a lot of trouble in that match up now. I say it's 6/4 DDD. His ground game is very annoying to get past, and I often end up getting grabbed out of f-tilt .
 

Zankoku

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I have to agree that it's a matchup you can't get careless in, given Dedede's grab range... it seems the only place you're safe is directly behind him.
 

ADHD

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Sheik is either neutral or has the advantage, your dtilt ***** dedede because all of them have this whorish grab happy attitude and you can take advantage of them hiding behind their shield. You can't gimp him though, his up b goes all through it but you can teleport if he tries to land on top of you. Just don't let him gimp you whatever you do, and watch out for inhales. That's all I can say. She's got agility over dedede and dedede has such ****ty horizontal DI so doesn't the tilt lock eat him alive? It's better to go zelda for this anyway though.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Dedede can camp too good. His waddle dees + ftilt are excellent camping tools. Sheik can get around it but it's very risky to do, since most of D3s moves outrange Sheiks. And if Sheik hits D3s shield he'll grab her for sure. Dedede will usually outcamp Sheik. He's also amazingly hard to finish...you almost need Zelda to KO him. Iirc Sheiks usmash is her best finisher and Dedede is one of the hardest characters to land a ceiling KO on. I dunno how much dmg the ftilt lock does but it's very unlikely to hit with it in the first place.

I find the best tactic against D3 to be hit + run in most cases. Try to be mobile and land some needles on him. Gay ledgecamping here and there could work too...

Zelda is clearly the worse choice though. Dedede beats her aerials and her ground game with ease. Both Zelda and Sheik are rather easy to KO...

Zelda vs Dedede = 35:65 Dededes favour
Sheik vs Dedede = 45:55 Dededes favour (or maybe 40:60?)

Overall: 45:55 or 40:60 Dededes favour
 

Snakeee

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I have to agree that it's a matchup you can't get careless in, given Dedede's grab range... it seems the only place you're safe is directly behind him.
He can still turn and grab really quickly :(

And You're definitely better off with Zelda for kills. He's an easy target for B-air/f-air and you can Up air him out of his Up B
 

R3N0

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best time to get him is when u throw him off the stage.. he'll upb right into a tipper upsmash... ftilt *****.. and do a lot well spaced short hop fairs.. also chain works decent when u have him in a corner.. he can't escape w/o taking some decent dmg b/c hes so fat. lol =p
 

-Mars-

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I think Zelda does better vs. DDD. Her range gives her some nice things she can do with the spacing. If your looking to avoid grabs......Zelda is the ideal character. In fact Zelda is one of the hardest matchups for grab based characters.

Sheiks needles are countered by the Waddle Dees while Dins Fire is not. Sure, Dins isn't great but it still allows you to apply decent pressure without being in his grab range.

Fat people always mean easier lightning kicks....this can never be a bad thing. In fact i've heard rumors that bair and fair trade with DDD's bair.

Usmash is going to beat most of the approaches that DDD has and properly spaced fsmashes keep him from getting inside.

His recovery means an easy uair or bair/fair in some cases.........more punishment than anything Sheik can do.

edit: Reno! nice to see you on the boards!
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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DDD gets sweetspotted by everything Zelda has. And he can't DI out of zelda's smashes very easily due to his weight and giantness.

for once din's fire actually outcamps something since in the hands of a capable zelda, Din's should ALWAYS outcamp waddle dee toss.

Zelda completely and totally ***** DDD's recovery. and effecitively outranges everything DDD has on the ground, besides ftilt that is.

I'd honestly put this HARD counter for zelda if it weren't for the fact that DDD has such a hax grab range. and such powerful throws... but, hey at least he can't chainthrow her!

I call this matchup Zelda's advantage at least 60:40... I don't think adding sheik helps a whole lot.
 

choknater

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I think Sheik has the advantage because she is too fast for him.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm not contributing. I just like to oversimplify my matchups and it usually works in my favor.
 

-Mars-

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I think Sheik has the advantage because she is too fast for him.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm not contributing. I just like to oversimplify my matchups and it usually works in my favor.
G&W is fast and that matchup is considered even:0
 

Kataefi

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It's definitely not D3's favour.
Zelda alone can consistently land lightning kicks and rack up damage. That's without having to use her many other kill moves. Uair beats his dair, and at worst it trade hits - which isn't good for D3 at all. His recovery make him easier to spike without his up+b and easier to connect her Uair with his up+b. His heavy, so usmash will connect more at earlier percents to rack up damage, plus D3 finds it so much harder to SDI out of her attacks!

Yes he has waddle dees and ftilt, but din's can tame the waddle dees and put serious pressure on D3, and fast falling nair is a decent approach from above in between D3's ftilts. Not even that - Zelda can jump over D3 and use Dairs to get around him. Her Dair has surprisingly good range and a good bit of priority even if it sourspots.

The matchup becomes significantly harder if D3 plays defensively. Zelda cannot easily approach because of his utilt, which I believe is Zelda's only downfall in this matchup. Plus D3 has ridiculous grab range and a great back throw to build up damage. But din's is a great counter to this. D3 is practically forced to approach!

Sorry guys, I know this is the shiek board, but I know very little about her!
 
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