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Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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just to show my opinions here:
Favorable
:link2: Link (80-20) (70-30) (70-30)

:ike: Ike (70-30) (55-45) (80-20)

:toonlink: Toon Link (75-25) (70-30) (70-30)


Slightly Favorable
:peach: Peach (40-60) (60-40) (40-60)

:diddy: Diddy Kong (45-55) (60-40) (40-60)

:popo: Ice Climbers (25-75) (60-40) (10-90)


Unfavorable
:metaknight: Meta Knight (35-65) (35-65) (30-70)

:gw: Mr. Game & Watch (30-70) (20-80) (30-70)
Link might be Zelda's advatage, but it doesn't seem like it should be THAT large an advatage
Ike is Ike's advatage if anything, though it's a slight one.
Toonie is a close matchup for Zelda. I really doubt it's 70:30 her advatage
Peach is tough. Almost even IMO and in the opinion of many of my fellows.
maybe diddy IS zelda's advatage, but I'd probably call it even... or, at the very least, Stage dependent.
IC's are probably even easier for zelda than 60:40... but I'll take it
I still wouldn't say MK is THAT bad for Zelda but I suppose the diffeence between 60:40 and 65:35 isn't that big.
the difference between 80:20 and 70:30, however, is... G&W is bad... but not TOTAL ****.
 

Zankoku

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A 100:0 would mean Ganondorf loses even when it looks like he's winning.

A 110:-10 would mean that Ganondorf loses the moment someone selects him on the character select screen.
 

Timbers

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could also be that she's horribly underplayed... seriously we have almost zero repesentation with zelda.

but her bad matchups come in the top teirs... so it's hard for her to break into the top levels.

if only she were a bit harder to kill.
Amazing characters aren't underplayed. Lucario has 3-4 disadvantages, 15-16 advantages, and a ton of even matchups...and Luc is getting much more rep than Zelda is. Zelda would be amazing given the current matchups she has. Even under the assumption that GaW and MK wreck her, she'd still be in high tier. ROB has bad matchups with MK and gaw, yet he's currently sitting pretty at 6th or 7th on tier list (can't remember)

Also gonna go with
She's being overrated by the Zelda mains
If you want to develop a more accurate chart, I'd suggest getting a joint project going with the Zelda mains. Their numbers in their current matchup list seem much more reasonable than the ones in this thread right now.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Amazing characters aren't underplayed. Lucario has 3-4 disadvantages, 15-16 advantages, and a ton of even matchups...and Luc is getting much more rep than Zelda is. Zelda would be amazing given the current matchups she has. Even under the assumption that GaW and MK wreck her, she'd still be in high tier. ROB has bad matchups with MK and gaw, yet he's currently sitting pretty at 6th or 7th on tier list (can't remember)

Also gonna go with


If you want to develop a more accurate chart, I'd suggest getting a joint project going with the Zelda mains. Their numbers in their current matchup list seem much more reasonable than the ones in this thread right now.
Zelda's matchups don't make her amazing. Just good.

She has very few bad matchups. and almost no bad matchups that aren't covered by sheik.... but she also doesn't have many really good matchups either.
 

choknater

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say it once and say it again

G&W and MK are the only two matchups where BOTH of them are at a disadvantage

diddy kong is difficult sometimes as well
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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say it once and say it again

G&W and MK are the only two matchups where BOTH of them are at a disadvantage

diddy kong is difficult sometimes as well
eh.... diddy kong's not bad with zelda.

I've never used sheik against him though.
 

choknater

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even matchup with sheik

whoever has the momentum wins

thats why it can be hard sometimes lol
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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fair enough... but that's basically how ALL diddy's matches go. momentum, momentum, momentum.

Zelda seems to do well against him just because she seems to be naturally difficult for him.

He's got the advatage in the air assuming he doesn't get LKd, but nanners can actually be a detriment because of how frightening zelda is when glide tossing them.... and they are normally easy to reflect as well.

peanuts are nothing and makes zelda more than willing to trade din's or just reflect them.

Side B gets eaten by a properly spaced anything, and Zelda's Usmash is relatively easy to place against it.

Also, he's one of the easier chacrters for zelda to edgeguard.

as long as he doesn't somehow manage to get you airborne and keep juggling you, Zelda has a bit of an advatage here. it also helps that she kills him more easily than he kills her.
 

DanGR

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I don't understand how Sheik/Zelda could ever have a worser matchup than either Sheik or Zelda alone. (see Kirby. Sheik/Zelda has the disadvantage whereas Zelda has the advantage)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but using Sheik/Zelda is using the best of Sheik and Zelda- not necessarily using Sheik to rack and Zelda to kill. The best of each in this matchup would consist of using Zelda only and switching to Sheik and then back to Zelda during those rare star KOs to refresh her attacks. That's Sheik/Zelda, and Sheik/Zelda has the advantage over Kirby.

That's just the way I see it. :/
 

Squidster

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No, sheik / zelda is sheik damage then zelda kill

If it was using the best in that situation we wouldn't know who to use because they would all be grouped up as one. This way we know that zelda is the one to use.
Technically "sheik and zelda" has the same matchup if you're using the best one, but zelda should be used throughout.
 

DanGR

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So it's a matter of not confusing them with each other, and not word technicallity. You guys just refer to
"Sheik racking; zelda killing" as Sheik/Zelda? gotcha.

Why not call that StZ, like in pop's reference guide?

And is restoring Zelda's attacks through switching to Sheik and then back again called just using Zelda?
 

-Mars-

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So it's a matter of not confusing them with each other, and not word technicallity. You guys just refer to
"Sheik racking; zelda killing" as Sheik/Zelda? gotcha.

Why not call that StZ, like in pop's reference guide?

And is restoring Zelda's attacks through switching to Sheik and then back again called just using Zelda?
I've never seen someone do this in a real match, I have seen some people play certain matchups(Falco for example) as Zelda then switch to Sheik.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I don't understand how Sheik/Zelda could ever have a worser matchup than either Sheik or Zelda alone. (see Kirby. Sheik/Zelda has the disadvantage whereas Zelda has the advantage)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but using Sheik/Zelda is using the best of Sheik and Zelda- not necessarily using Sheik to rack and Zelda to kill. The best of each in this matchup would consist of using Zelda only and switching to Sheik and then back to Zelda during those rare star KOs to refresh her attacks. That's Sheik/Zelda, and Sheik/Zelda has the advantage over Kirby.

That's just the way I see it. :/
I'd have to agree with you.

In case you were actually interested I've listed several different styles here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193954


I don't think Zelda/Sheik should be so one dimensional as Squidster says.

Zelda/Sheik is ANY combination of zelda and sheik... not just what Pops called StZ... StZ is essentially just a sheik with transparent killing power.
 

Zankoku

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If you're double transforming just to reset attack decay, not only are you pretty much hoping for the Wii to not crap up on load times, but you're also decidedly not using Sheik at all despite transforming to her for an instant. I don't think that qualifies as Zelda/Sheik.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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If you're double transforming just to reset attack decay, not only are you pretty much hoping for the Wii to not crap up on load times, but you're also decidedly not using Sheik at all despite transforming to her for an instant. I don't think that qualifies as Zelda/Sheik.
correct. THAT isntance is just using Zelda.

he's more talking about the idea of a Zelda/Sheik main in general and saying it shouldn't be limited to one style of Zelda/Sheik.

because there really IS no reason for a Zelda/Sheik main not to always have the most favourable matchup of the three.
 

DanGR

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If you're double transforming just to reset attack decay, not only are you pretty much hoping for the Wii to not crap up on load times, but you're also decidedly not using Sheik at all despite transforming to her for an instant. I don't think that qualifies as Zelda/Sheik.
You're using the switch to reset Zelda's move decay. That's significant enough.

If I couldn't call that Sheik/Zelda, I'd call it Zelda-with-a-double-transformation, and not Zelda alone. Zelda is using Zelda without transformation. Sheik/Zelda is using any combination of the two, no matter how long you use them for, as long as you have had each one out on the stage at any time during the game.

Let's say you chose Zelda after your opponent called for a blind pick. Your opponent chooses Ike. You switch to Sheik the second the match starts to get an even bigger edge over him. He punishes your switch with a dash attack or something. idk. it doesn't matter. You win anyways. Let's say by one stock.

I'm guessing you'd call that victory for Sheik right?, and not Sheik/Zelda? You're just going to disregard that switch entirely, even though it may have won you the game? That in-game counterpick means nothing at all? If that's not Sheik/Zelda, then it's Sheik-as-in-game-counterpick. Not Sheik.

My point: When you transform at any point in the game to gain any sort of tactical advantage that you wouldn't have if you didn't switch, no matter how small it may be, that qualifies as using Sheik/Zelda. You're using them both, not just one or the other.
 

Zankoku

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That's a really silly way of viewing things. If you intend to reset attack decay, you're specifically using Zelda's Down+B to do so, and I don't really think using Sheik's Down+B immediately afterward qualifies as using Sheik. Doing so would be as stupid as saying pressing Start, L+R+A+Start at the beginning of a game means you were playing Zelda/Reset. Hell, I could transform at the end of the game to make the victory screen Zelda instead of Sheik or Sheik instead of Zelda, but that doesn't exactly count as using both... If you want me to make the column for Zelda/Sheik consistent, I can simply remove the rating for any matchups where you should never have to transform.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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That's a really silly way of viewing things. If you intend to reset attack decay, you're specifically using Zelda's Down+B to do so, and I don't really think using Sheik's Down+B immediately afterward qualifies as using Sheik. Doing so would be as stupid as saying pressing Start, L+R+A+Start at the beginning of a game means you were playing Zelda/Reset. If you want me to make the column for Zelda/Sheik consistent, I can simply remove the rating for any matchups where you should never have to transform.
because it doesn't agree with you it's silly?

No. you're wrong here ankoku. just plain wrong. if you weren't using Zelda/Sheik, there's no WAY zelda would have as good a matchup against Ike.

it's that simple. Sure, you aren't playing Zelda for long, but the fact that you dual mained is what allowed you to win.

the Reset metaphore was just stupid Ankoku. it really was. it was a poor attempt to belittle DanGR's completely valid argument.

so you go in as zelda and change to sheik right away so it's not considered Zelda sheik to you because you never attacked with zelda? Say he fired Din's first... it's now completely different?

Quite simply, just becasue you OPT to use half of the attacks available to your charcter DOES NOT MEAN that they aren't there.

For a Sheik main alone. there is not even the possibility of using Zelda's moveset or else the user would be a Zelda/Sheik user.

I understand why you are labling your chart the way you are Ankoku, but you have to understand that nothing forces a zelda/sheik user to actually use Zelda or sheik more than is necesary for any given matchup. I'm sure anyone reading the chart would realize when they see that both sheik and Z/S have the same macthup for a given character then the Z/S is essentially just using sheik.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I don't feel like updating the list and it's incredibly obsolete since there are apparently over 50 variations of using both Zelda and Sheik. Someone else do this.
:chuckle:

oh good LORD would that be a big undertaking.

no let's see. we've already got matchup threads for Sheik alone and Zelda alone right?


Then all this needs to do is be a bit more focused.

Just give each charcter a matchup rating and give a brief synopsis (doesn't need to be more than a sentence or two) of the best way to use zelda/sheik in tandem to win. that's all.


I guess, quite simply, there aren't enough dual mains playing enough good players to produce a truly accurate chart at this time though.

But, I mean, we have an idea don't we?
 

DanGR

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not again...

You don't have to erase everything. Just define what you think Sheik, Zelda, and Sheik/Zelda is in the OP- to avoid confusion. (like I was) The Sheik/Zelda you had up was StZ, a subcategory of S/Z. Make a distinction.
 

x After Dawn x

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eh. The Zelda and the Zelda/Sheik matchups were wrong anyway. This was sure a convenient thread at times, but don't attempt to make me feel remorseful when I did nothing wrong.
Right, because you really know what you're talking about, right? Your posts are terrible, some make no sense, some provide no evidence, and I remember you arguing that Lylat Cruise should never be neutral in the Official Stage Legality topic because the edge moves.

And just to let you know, the thread's OP was more convenient than any one of your posts.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Right, because you really know what you're talking about, right? Your posts are terrible, some make no sense, some provide no evidence, and I remember you arguing that Lylat Cruise should never be neutral in the Official Stage Legality topic because the edge moves.

And just to let you know, the thread's OP was more convenient than any one of your posts.
:laugh:

I know more about Zelda at least than Ankoku does. Sorry chap. (He's admittted that not only does he know very little about her, he also doesn't care to learn... how can THAT be using Zelda/Sheik to its full potential?)

And I still don't think Lylat should be neutral. I think it should be a counterpick. Screws up way too many people. tilting ledges autogimp a lot of recoveries, some more than others. and tilting terain screws up a lot of projectile games. it's not absolutely awful, but its terain attributes DO do quite a bit to affect the outcome of the game. That says counterpick to me. Castle seige, Stadium 1 and Delfino are closer to lylat than lylat is to the 4 absolute neutrals. That's my opinion at least, and it must not be mine alone because Lylat was decided to be a neutral/starter not a starter.

I'd like to listen to what you have to say... but really you aren't so much saying anything so much as ranting and mudslinging making you completely unreachable by any logical post.

Don't be angry with ME. DanGR made a valid point and Ankoku treated him like he was an idiot with what appeared to be some sort of haughty elitist gal. Telling Ankoku that DanGR was right when DanGR clearly was is NOT wrong. DanGR and I butt heads a LOT, but when he's right he's right, so don't accuse me of favouritism either. Like I said, most of the people in this thread have no idea how to play Zelda.

Anyhow, Ankoku could've taken the criticism without deleting the whole thing. If you want him to bring it back, talk to him. Not me. It's not like I can do anything about it.

But please. Continue to be a complete a******, you're doing a great job.
 

x After Dawn x

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YOU know Zelda's matchups? Then you really ought to be telling me what her matchups are and why instead of talking a lot and saying nothing.

I see your "criticism" as barely that, since I have a hard time figuring out the intent behind all your words, lol. If you could stop spending.. 5 paragraphs basically saying "I don't think Zelda's matchups are accurate" and instead use those 5 paragraphs talking about the matchups you know and how you see them, maybe we can get somewhere.
Link?


Okay, I really hate this whole "based on my experience" or "well, I think." Give some solid evidence or a link to the matchup discussion.


Let me repeat what I can see from this so we're perfectly clear...
Zelda can make very few mistakes in the matchup, and Meta Knight can make more mistakes than Zelda... and in a matchup between a Zelda who makes very few mistakes and a Meta Knight who makes more, it's even.

...What?


You know, usually when I refer to "why" and when you decide to cite sources for your reasoning, it involves providing your sources. You can start by explaining to me how the matchup between Zelda and Meta Knight is even when the Zelda player has to be far more careful and has less room for error than the Meta Knight.
In other words it is not an even matchup any way you look at it because the Meta Knight does not have to be more skilled/make fewer mistakes to win.

You can't even properly reason how DK takes advantage of the matchup, when other than Snake it's one of the easiest ones to explain. Go back to the Zelda boards and tell them to send somebody else.
These three quotes pretty much explain what I was trying to say. You claim that you have a good Zelda, but you come into the thread and post useless paragraphs of "i think zelda is a pretty cool guy"-like posts without any evidence until later asked, and even then, you fail to show enough evidence. As Ankoku said, "Go back to the Zelda boards and tell them to send somebody else."

Just because you know more about Zelda than him, that doesn't mean you actually know anything about Zelda, and that gives you no right to constantly find ways to argue with him.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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These three quotes pretty much explain what I was trying to say. You claim that you have a good Zelda, but you come into the thread and post useless paragraphs of "i think zelda is a pretty cool guy"-like posts without any evidence until later asked, and even then, you fail to show enough evidence. As Ankoku said, "Go back to the Zelda boards and tell them to send somebody else."

Just because you know more about Zelda than him, that doesn't mean you actually know anything about Zelda, and that gives you no right to constantly find ways to argue with him.
odd that you quoted ankoku chiding me about how DK and Snake are advantaged against Metaknight when that isn't the truth.

Frustrating it is that I need hard evidence to change Ankoku's mind when the matchups were just wrong. I mean, who the hell came in in the first place and told him they were the way he had them written? I argued with him because he's wrong. I don't have to be the world's greatest Zelda to see that either. He actually had Zelda listed as being disadvataged against the ice climbers at one point in time and has havibg an 80:20 disadvatage against Olimar. God only knows where these notions came from, but it was so impossible to try and argue against his obstanance.

whatever though, I really don't need to justify myself to you. Though it is rather fun to see you take this thread to be your personal platform on a charcter assault on myself. Real mature.
 

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Wait... where...


Gah. I was just learning Sheik, too. Guess I'll check for just Sheik's match-ups and combine it with my Zelda experience.
 

Zankoku

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odd that you quoted ankoku chiding me about how DK and Snake are advantaged against Metaknight when that isn't the truth.
about how DK and Snake are advantaged against Metaknight
You can't even properly reason how DK takes advantage of the matchup, when other than Snake it's one of the easiest ones to explain.
DK takes advantage of the matchup
takes advantage

I.... actually, you know what? I don't have the need to defend myself. Say whatever you like about what I said.
 

Squidster

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yeh... was convenient.
Ankoku maybe just make the matchup thread only sheik? That way people stop complaining about zelda matchup and we can have a general idea of how it goes.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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yeh... was convenient.
Ankoku maybe just make the matchup thread only sheik? That way people stop complaining about zelda matchup and we can have a general idea of how it goes.
that sounds like a good idea.

Zelda already has a matchup thread on the Zelda boards that seems to be more accurate according to Zelda mains. But sheik boards now have nothing. :ohwell:
 
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