-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing
- Thread starter Zankoku
- Start date
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I didn't think anyone disagreed with your sheik matchups
Tristan_win
Not dead.
~nods~I didn't think anyone disagreed with your sheik matchups
I know I didn't if I did I would of said something.
Squidster
Smash Ace
*chants* bring it back! bring it back!
A little false info never hurt anyone! It's awkward to start talking about matchups without the op
A little false info never hurt anyone! It's awkward to start talking about matchups without the op
Timbers
check me out
You should most definitely bring your Sheik matchups back, or at least initiate some form of group effort for Sheik's matchup listings.
And then just assume that if you have the opportunity to switch to Zelda for killpower or some ****, because I agree that even trying to create matchup numbers against/for Sheik/Zelda is ridiculous. The main reason I popped in here was due to Lucario boards considering discussing both Sheik and Zelda, and being totally lost on what the point of it all was besides Sheik used for approach options and Zelda for killing....and then there's apparently a whole slew of different ways to use Zelda and Sheik that I've never even heard until recently.
asfdgasdf
And then just assume that if you have the opportunity to switch to Zelda for killpower or some ****, because I agree that even trying to create matchup numbers against/for Sheik/Zelda is ridiculous. The main reason I popped in here was due to Lucario boards considering discussing both Sheik and Zelda, and being totally lost on what the point of it all was besides Sheik used for approach options and Zelda for killing....and then there's apparently a whole slew of different ways to use Zelda and Sheik that I've never even heard until recently.
asfdgasdf
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Just bring back the Shiek bit Ankoku, leave out Zelda and Shiek/Zelda, don't be stubborn.
so pretty.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
I think Ankoku did it perfectly with this.
Someone give me a valid argument on why it's better to use Sheik/Zelda vs Marth compared to just Sheik.
plz
plz
Yeah, obviously Zelda would be a much easier way to kill.
But the problem is landing the hit. See, when Sheik switches back to Zelda she loses the best quality she has in the match up: speed. Her speed is what allows her to get past Marth's sword and rack up damage.
When Marth goes up against Zelda however, things can change. Marth can focus purely on zoning her with attacks that outrange Zelda's. By the time you land the kill you may have suffered a great amount of damage than if you just stayed Sheik.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Ankoku is a beast.
And straight Shiek is better usually for Marth in my experience, without the speed Zelda get's *****.
And straight Shiek is better usually for Marth in my experience, without the speed Zelda get's *****.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I really like the design of new new chart Ankoku, but I agree with the others that you should have kept the Sheik only Chart also.
Completely true and the fact that the opponent is playing defensive to avoid the ko makes landing the finishing blow difficult. That's another reason why I personally just go straight Sheik.
Here's a video of Rykoshet and NinjaLink: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccEgbc2kooo&feature=related , not the best vid I know but it does show some options that Zelda has in the matchup. Retreating fairs are very effective for Marth, but a powershield to a sliding upsmash is going to keep forcing the Marth to retreat......am I wrong on this?
Sheik only matchups:
***** everyone who can get tiltlocked and aren't Ice Climbers
Gets ***** by everyone who can't get tiltlocked or are Ice Climbers
Done.
***** everyone who can get tiltlocked and aren't Ice Climbers
Gets ***** by everyone who can't get tiltlocked or are Ice Climbers
Done.
rofl whoops, how did I forget him
I can see it working. Marth can always throw out another fair though as he is falling backwards to hit her back out.
And while retreating fairs is very effective when playing defensive vs Zelda, a spaced dtilt > dancing blade can also wreak havoc.
I just brought this up because it was still a " ? " on the front page.. Sheik only is definitely the way to go vs Marth.
Also I played Ryoko last weekend in some friendlies, whether he was sandbagging or not he had much more success with Sheik than with Zelda.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
oh wow... the new matchup thread format is sooo prettttty!!!!! *gets all googly eyed*
Questions though:
Why not just straight sheik against Ganondorf? I'm more compitent with zelda and I almost always go straight sheik in the matchup. it's just so much ****.
Why list PT as one charcter? Shouldn't you switch midmatch depending on the poke you face? My personal experisnce on the matchup tends to go:
Zelda v. Squirtle
Sheik v. Ivy (though zelda isn't awful)
Either or both v. charizard (hard to say who does better. tilt locks and easy LKs are both nice)
I'll see if I can get Raph here. He mains or at least seconds PT, I'm not sure which one anymore. See what he has to say.
Questions though:
Why not just straight sheik against Ganondorf? I'm more compitent with zelda and I almost always go straight sheik in the matchup. it's just so much ****.
Why list PT as one charcter? Shouldn't you switch midmatch depending on the poke you face? My personal experisnce on the matchup tends to go:
Zelda v. Squirtle
Sheik v. Ivy (though zelda isn't awful)
Either or both v. charizard (hard to say who does better. tilt locks and easy LKs are both nice)
I'll see if I can get Raph here. He mains or at least seconds PT, I'm not sure which one anymore. See what he has to say.
Timbers
check me out
Tristan_win
Not dead.
We love you Ankoku! ^-^
Villi
Smash Lord
Four more years!
East
Crappy Imitation
Someone has outdone themselves. It's even in alphabetical order. I send my appreciation your way, Ankoku.
I do have a quick question though:
I'm not saying that anything is wrong, I'm simply wondering the details that went into the fox and falco match-ups. I didn't think it would be so much in sheik's favor to fight a fox, as well as falco. Would anyone be willing to explain this to me?
Oh and:
What the hell am I supposed to do if someone picks Mewtwo? He's like a -10 for every character. What about the possibilities of a Mewtwo ditto, though I'm pretty sure they would have it listed as a -10 as well... Mewtwo has become a problem in the currently evolving metagame, action must be taken.
I do have a quick question though:
I'm not saying that anything is wrong, I'm simply wondering the details that went into the fox and falco match-ups. I didn't think it would be so much in sheik's favor to fight a fox, as well as falco. Would anyone be willing to explain this to me?
Oh and:
What the hell am I supposed to do if someone picks Mewtwo? He's like a -10 for every character. What about the possibilities of a Mewtwo ditto, though I'm pretty sure they would have it listed as a -10 as well... Mewtwo has become a problem in the currently evolving metagame, action must be taken.
A +2 is not a very strong advantage. Falco is annoying with his lasers and chaingrab, but tiltlock happens at the more relevant %s. Fox just gets ***** by tiltlock and dies off the top REALLY early.
The Great Leon
Smash Champion
wow thats ****ing amazing
color coordinated and everything
color coordinated and everything
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
So hi guys.
I'm the resident PT player! I'm willing to play people so we can get a basis for PT here. I can tell you already that Charizard is best fought with your best character.... since both do quite well. The rest, well, we'll just have to see.
I'm the resident PT player! I'm willing to play people so we can get a basis for PT here. I can tell you already that Charizard is best fought with your best character.... since both do quite well. The rest, well, we'll just have to see.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
My experience against you raph:
Charizard:
-Zelda: omg what an advatage. Charlie is so easy to lightning kick it's not funny. and his glide makes him uair bait if you are in good position, and Din's bait if you aren't. You outrange and outprioritize pretty much his everything. Din's forces him to approach and he is lacking in his options for safe approaches. Seriously, this is a good matchup for zelda.
-Sheik: can combo charlie like crazy. Ftilt works wonders and, as long as you know which moves charlie can throw out quickly, he is VERY limited in stopping your approaches. He's got some grab range and a DANG powerful Dthrow, but combo into a usmash and he's toast... or just change to Zelda to KO.
Conclusion: there's absolutely no wrong way to play this. Zelda alone, sheik alone or both together... they all are advantaged.
Ivysaur:
-Zelda: ivy actually has the range advantage here. But, on the plus side, I've found an airborne ivy is not too hard to LK or Uair and he's quite light. Ivy's razor leaf and range make it hard to force him to approach. Zelda really shines if she can knock him off the edge though. Beleive it or not, I actually get to use her Dtilt spike here due to Ivy's very limited recovery options.... just don't get greedy and get edgehogged.
-Sheik: I prefer sheik here honestly. Needles do a lot to force ivy to approach, or at least to TRY to so that sheik can exploit him when he tries. Sheik might have more trouble escaping bullet seed and more trouble with the range difference in moves, but sheik is a much more reliable edgeguarder.... and ivy is an easy target for that.
Conclusion: Zelda is not bad, but sheik is better. If you are going to use both charcters here, I might recomend starting as zelda and going to sheik for the ko. Zelda will get ivy into a range to be knocked off, and Sheik will have fresh aerials to keep him off.
Squirtle:
-Zelda: oh dear god is squirtle frustrating. you might as well kiss most of your aerials good bye. Nair and lightning kicks just become near useless against him... Uair at least is great for an EARLY ko... and his recovery is VERY punishable by dair if you get him in a bad position. Other than that. You have power on him in spades. He'll get out of your multihits earlier than most due to size and weight, but he'll also die really early. Squirtle's the hardest of the three to face normaly, but he's not overly difficult, just a decent challenge.
-Sheik: as sheik, I normally have a lot of problems here. Squirtle seems to have no problem approaching me, and seems to be able to ward off any approach attempt I make. Squirtle has superior power and priority in the air as well as amazing air control... which sucks. Squirtle also has some amaing power in his throws (specially Dthrhow) and some great grab range which makes him threatening if he EVER sheilds an attack also he's nearly impossible to combo and I find it hard to connect with most kill moves for sheik... my best results here are to play an ultra-reactionary sheik. Iunno if other sheiks agree with me, but squirtle is hard.
Conclusion: *Groan*... not fun either way, but my personal experience says at least Zelda doesn't have too many problems with him. I don't think you can EVER have the advantage against squirtle, but at least zelda doen't seem to have a disadvatage.
PT on the whole:
I imagine most smart PTs will realize how both zelda and sheik can give them trouble. AS such, unless on a stage that gimps ivy or squirtle (Frigate Orpheon destroys Ivy no?) then you should expect not to see too much, if any of charizard. I'd say to expect two squirtles and one ivy. As such, I would recomend using Sheik for ivy even though Zelda can do okay against him.... that'll keep zelda fresh for Squirtle when he comes out. Don't ever underestimate PT... but know your strengths and I say this is Zelda sheik's matchup to lose. I personally love the matchup because it allows you to really use Zelda/Sheik's built in counterpicking abilities.
Artful switching probably yeilds no less than a 60:40 advantage in our favour... but good PTs are hard to come by. I have experience against so few.
other opinions?
Out of the three Pokémon, I've actually had the least trouble with Squirtle, and the most with Ivysaur. However, Ivysaur I just have trouble with if I don't get the opening momentum because if I do he ends up getting ***** anyway.
Squirtle feels ridiculously easy to match with Sheik... he has to avoid getting ftilted because he's just as vulnerable to the lock as the other two, and to add to that he's also the lightest of the three. His attacks come out quickly but he's actually got below average movement speed, letting Sheik maneuver all around him.
I still think you should just go with either Zelda or Sheik or both, depending on whoever you're more comfortable with, because Pokémon Trainer right now is just a bunch of gimmicks thrown together that gets ridiculously easy to deal with as long as you know your own character's moveset and what each approach and attack can get through.
EDIT: I'm either wrong about Snake having a +1 on Sheik or the Snake I played a bunch today (Dingdong/Dingding) was terrible. I didn't lose a game out of the four we played in that matchup.
Squirtle feels ridiculously easy to match with Sheik... he has to avoid getting ftilted because he's just as vulnerable to the lock as the other two, and to add to that he's also the lightest of the three. His attacks come out quickly but he's actually got below average movement speed, letting Sheik maneuver all around him.
I still think you should just go with either Zelda or Sheik or both, depending on whoever you're more comfortable with, because Pokémon Trainer right now is just a bunch of gimmicks thrown together that gets ridiculously easy to deal with as long as you know your own character's moveset and what each approach and attack can get through.
EDIT: I'm either wrong about Snake having a +1 on Sheik or the Snake I played a bunch today (Dingdong/Dingding) was terrible. I didn't lose a game out of the four we played in that matchup.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
I'm actually working on Sheik, because right now I'mYour names Successor of Raphael and you main PT? With such a regal name like that you should only be playing Sheik/Zelda and maybe some Ike
Ness main
Zelda & PT secondary
Soon I'll be...
Zelda/Sheik main
PT & Ness secondary
So yeah, my name shall fit my main soon.
EDIT: Also, I'm very hit or miss with PT since I don't play him enough. Last night, my PT was on point with all three Pokemon, and the person who normally runs over me actually won only once or twice. I think that my Ivysaur needs the most work, because I don't really abuse his range as much as I should. I also need to learn how to recover with Charizard, because stupid princesses like to uair me.
But I'm more than willing to play you guys anyway.
I've actually been dabbling in some Pokemon Trainer and looking at picking him up. I always love the ability to in-game counterpick. I would love to play some with you.
Lol, my names Marsulas and Fox is my secondary so i'm kind of a hypocrite.......he just fits my playstyle too well and I love him to death.
Lol, my names Marsulas and Fox is my secondary so i'm kind of a hypocrite.......he just fits my playstyle too well and I love him to death.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Sorry for not getting it immediately, but what exactly is "marsulas"?
Also, I'd also enjoy playing you. Just let me know when you want to play.
Also, I'd also enjoy playing you. Just let me know when you want to play.
It's taken from an obscure fantasy book set in medival times, basically it's one of those names that justs says "royalty"(lol that sounded weird).
Cool, i'm down for matches tomorrow anytime from 7:00 to 11:00 EST........i'll pm you around then if that's ok?
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Haha, that makes sense then.
As for tomorrow... I work until about 9, and I dunno if my friend will want to hang out with me or not. If not, then I can play, but otherwise, I won't be able to.
As for tomorrow... I work until about 9, and I dunno if my friend will want to hang out with me or not. If not, then I can play, but otherwise, I won't be able to.
The Great Leon
Smash Champion
ivysaur is scary
but ill tell you a secret
shieldgrab squritle = win
but ill tell you a secret
shieldgrab squritle = win
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
squirtle has quite a bit of aerial mobility. he can position himself safely out of the range of this. A lot of the time at least.
demodemo
Smash Ace
whoo wee, let me start of by saying the first post looks amazing, great job haha.
Anyway, I would like to propose some changes about the zss matchup. maybe i just suck, maybe my friend sucks, maybe we aren't playing our characters right, but in all honestly I feel the matchup is completely even, if not in sheiks favour by +1 MAX. Also, I don't think transforming to zelda is a good idea, since, believe it or not, sheik has an easier time killing zss then zelda does. (at least to my experience)
To start off, I'll name some things sheiks got going for her just as a base to work off on.
Basically, zss should be approached, since you are only going to shoot so many needles before she comes at you with a short hopped laser or a forward b that are both difficult to defend without being punished. I find that I tend to lose if I am too campy with my needles, and do better the more aggressive I am.
Anyway, i find that sheik can approach effectively with just a forward air, or better yet, a full hoppedfasfalled back air. sheik has some pretty solid air game against zss due to her bair, and zss's back air is the only aerial that you should fear. However, just avoid jumping behind zss and you should be fine.
When it comes to offstage games, zss, even with her downb and her great tether(s), in the end, they are still tether recoveries. After learning the timings, it is possible to edgehog zss without being hit, but you must do so unexpectedly, or else they will predict it and wait for your invincibility frames to vanish. if zss is recoving with her side b, sheiks bair, as far as i know, can go through the start frames of the tether, and it will only take one or 2 bairs before zss is too far away to recover.
zss's close range game can be punished by sheiks downsmash, so it is actually pretty difficult for zss to get a downsmash on sheik.
Zss, as far as i know, also doesn't too so shabby against sheik. basically, right from the beginning of the match (**** god-tier items) sheik is forced to approach, and may approach with only a bair, and maybe a fair. it is possible to perdict this, then bust out the uber, 1-frame-startup jab that can be linked into a grab or dash attack. utilt is a good move if sheik messes up her approach, and can lead to other aerials
when sheik is in the air, zss actually has no trouble agsint sheik, and has a plethora of options against her. she can go in from the side with a hopped sideb (bait an airdodge first lol) a bair, or a uair for the kill. zss may also even stay on the ground and use her up b to pull sheik down, which can get her into dsmash combos. uair kills sheik too ****ing early, under 100 and the priority is like FUAKJSAG.
once off stage, zss is in an immediate disadvantage but playing smartly with zss's tether recovery actually works, unlike more linear tether recoveries like olimars/ivysaurs. down b's priority *****
All in all, I would say the matchup is pretty even, or slightly in sheik's favour. I think the only reason why I usually beat my friend (all sheik, no zelda) is just because I am better than him, so my results may be a bit skewed, but I think they are correct for the most part. Maybe we can get a second opinion on this?
As for why switching to zelda doesn't work, it is because sheik needs to knock zss "away" before transforming. "away" is usually offstage, and sheik is just a better edgeguarder.
One may think, since I'm zelda now, i get easy kill rite? no. zss is just too fast and her forward b just outranges zelda's...everything. zelda, lacking an approach, is sort of nailed to the ground, and has to play very defensively (like most zeldas do) and usually ends up getting ***** by zss's close range game. once zelda is in the air...gosh, just say goodbye.
zelda can do NOTHING against uair, bair, even fair to some degree but AIRDODGE. airdodge to reach the gorund...where she gets ***** once more. Dins fire? zss can just run and sheild/airdodge. she is going to be approaching zelda with forward b anyway, so it is not like you are screwing her game up or anything.
all in all, sheik is just the better choice against zss for damaging, and getting kills. Even though zelda has a plethora of killing moves, it is just too hard to get the moves to connect with zss's moveset.
Once again, if anyone reads this far, a second opinion would be nice hahaha, I'm so insecure.
Anyway, I would like to propose some changes about the zss matchup. maybe i just suck, maybe my friend sucks, maybe we aren't playing our characters right, but in all honestly I feel the matchup is completely even, if not in sheiks favour by +1 MAX. Also, I don't think transforming to zelda is a good idea, since, believe it or not, sheik has an easier time killing zss then zelda does. (at least to my experience)
To start off, I'll name some things sheiks got going for her just as a base to work off on.
Basically, zss should be approached, since you are only going to shoot so many needles before she comes at you with a short hopped laser or a forward b that are both difficult to defend without being punished. I find that I tend to lose if I am too campy with my needles, and do better the more aggressive I am.
Anyway, i find that sheik can approach effectively with just a forward air, or better yet, a full hoppedfasfalled back air. sheik has some pretty solid air game against zss due to her bair, and zss's back air is the only aerial that you should fear. However, just avoid jumping behind zss and you should be fine.
When it comes to offstage games, zss, even with her downb and her great tether(s), in the end, they are still tether recoveries. After learning the timings, it is possible to edgehog zss without being hit, but you must do so unexpectedly, or else they will predict it and wait for your invincibility frames to vanish. if zss is recoving with her side b, sheiks bair, as far as i know, can go through the start frames of the tether, and it will only take one or 2 bairs before zss is too far away to recover.
zss's close range game can be punished by sheiks downsmash, so it is actually pretty difficult for zss to get a downsmash on sheik.
Zss, as far as i know, also doesn't too so shabby against sheik. basically, right from the beginning of the match (**** god-tier items) sheik is forced to approach, and may approach with only a bair, and maybe a fair. it is possible to perdict this, then bust out the uber, 1-frame-startup jab that can be linked into a grab or dash attack. utilt is a good move if sheik messes up her approach, and can lead to other aerials
when sheik is in the air, zss actually has no trouble agsint sheik, and has a plethora of options against her. she can go in from the side with a hopped sideb (bait an airdodge first lol) a bair, or a uair for the kill. zss may also even stay on the ground and use her up b to pull sheik down, which can get her into dsmash combos. uair kills sheik too ****ing early, under 100 and the priority is like FUAKJSAG.
once off stage, zss is in an immediate disadvantage but playing smartly with zss's tether recovery actually works, unlike more linear tether recoveries like olimars/ivysaurs. down b's priority *****
All in all, I would say the matchup is pretty even, or slightly in sheik's favour. I think the only reason why I usually beat my friend (all sheik, no zelda) is just because I am better than him, so my results may be a bit skewed, but I think they are correct for the most part. Maybe we can get a second opinion on this?
As for why switching to zelda doesn't work, it is because sheik needs to knock zss "away" before transforming. "away" is usually offstage, and sheik is just a better edgeguarder.
One may think, since I'm zelda now, i get easy kill rite? no. zss is just too fast and her forward b just outranges zelda's...everything. zelda, lacking an approach, is sort of nailed to the ground, and has to play very defensively (like most zeldas do) and usually ends up getting ***** by zss's close range game. once zelda is in the air...gosh, just say goodbye.
zelda can do NOTHING against uair, bair, even fair to some degree but AIRDODGE. airdodge to reach the gorund...where she gets ***** once more. Dins fire? zss can just run and sheild/airdodge. she is going to be approaching zelda with forward b anyway, so it is not like you are screwing her game up or anything.
all in all, sheik is just the better choice against zss for damaging, and getting kills. Even though zelda has a plethora of killing moves, it is just too hard to get the moves to connect with zss's moveset.
Once again, if anyone reads this far, a second opinion would be nice hahaha, I'm so insecure.
Actually a pretty knowledgeable post, her 1-frame jab causes problems for Sheik. In fact, she plays a pretty comparative style to Sheik besides the high SH. Her spacing game is top notch but she has trouble killing..........sounds like Sheik to me. Sheik though has Zelda waiting in the wings just in case and that is why I feel the matchup is slightly in Sheiks favor.
With ZSS' items, I immediately grab the ledge. Usually a ZSS will throw one immediately down to protect the other one, then pick one up to approach with. As long as you just worry about avoiding the armor pieces instead of trying to get to them............they're not much of a problem. For Zelda they might be but for Sheik you shouldn't be getting hit with these.
With ZSS' items, I immediately grab the ledge. Usually a ZSS will throw one immediately down to protect the other one, then pick one up to approach with. As long as you just worry about avoiding the armor pieces instead of trying to get to them............they're not much of a problem. For Zelda they might be but for Sheik you shouldn't be getting hit with these.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Zelda actually likes ZSS's armour. it's easy to reflect, and is GREAT for zelda's scary glide tosses. I personally use Zelda for ZSS, I think Zelda has the advantage... though sheik does have some gimping ability under his/her/its belt.