Zelda+: OP In-Process of Overhaul as of 04-05-10

[GameSystem]

Smash attacks shouldn't really combo but that may just be my traditional thinking. Ftilt usually sends the angle you want for air combos. Either that or uthrow to something.

 

[JCaesar]

Never fsmash Jiggs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0REWxkiKcY

 

[GameSystem]

While zelda was fsmashing jiggs, the lava came and interrupted zelda, the weak hit of fsmash sent jiggs inward since that's how the angles work for the move, and jiggs rested. Any other stage fsmash will **** jiggs.

 

[shanus]

While zelda was fsmashing jiggs, the lava came and interrupted zelda, the weak hit of fsmash sent jiggs inward since that's how the angles work for the move, and jiggs rested. Any other stage fsmash will **** jiggs.

He SDI'd in and rested in 1 frame.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

A few things happened, actually.

The KB of Fsmash caused a trip.
A block spawned right under Jiggs and was immediately destroyed, canceling the trip into normal fall.
The acid interrupted Zelda's Fsmash at the exact same time = Rest.

 

[GameSystem]

I was closer than shanus at least.

 

[omegablackmage]

So i've been playing zelda for a little bit now and im noticing some things that make her a bit... different

☼ Floaty - she has a pretty floaty build making it pretty tough to combo her.

☼ Long range recovery - not saying that it isn't punishable, but its **** hard to gimp a zelda player that knows how to recover. What will probably happen on recovery is you'll have to go for the stage since they are hogging, and you'll just get hit out of a ledge hog, not very gimpable, specially if you use the dins right.

☼ Smashes (i'll go into each of these) -
- Upsmash: really really good. Not only does it combo into itself a good two or three times at 0 percent on most characters, but it completely nullifies any characters chances to make it to the ground. The size, length, and priority of this move makes it so that very few characters can get to the ground w/o getting nailed by this move, even if they airdodge.
- Fsmash: Too much range, and too safe on shield. I can't count how many approaches i can stuff just by walking away and fsmashing. Since it has such high priority, it beats many characters fsmashes and even if you want to punish it by KNOWING they will do it and going up to shield, no one can grab her cuz it has so much shield push.
- Dsmash: I don't have a problem with this move being so quick, but wow is it a little strong. If you catch most of the cast near the edge with this move, they can't recover cuz it sends you out at the worst possible angle. In melee it was a great move to get people off you, not to kill and do that as well...

☼ Combo's - she has some really great combos. Dtilt is great for hit-confirming into either fsmash, upsmash, or uptilt (three GREAT kill moves). Ftilt combos into feet very well. Upsmash combos into itself at 0 two or three times into a foot or an upair.

☼ Range/Priority - do any of her moves have crappy range/priority? all of her moves are great at outranging things...

☼ Anti-camping - you guys all say that she sucks against camping, but how exactly. Her reflector isn't that laggy, and it covers her whole body. Which characters exactly would outcamp zelda?


Its really just her smashes that need to get toned down just a little bit. Fsmash probably would be fine if it just wasn't safe of shield (ie: if i know your gunna fsmash and i run up and shield it, i should be rewarded by getting a grab, no?). Upsmash would be great if they just reduced how long it lasted and maybe cut back on the range a little bit. Dsmash? just don't make it kill the entire cast by the edge at 50 damage...

Essentially i like how zelda plays... except for the smashes. I don't care that they combo or are fast they just need to be punishable in some way shape or form. I like her combos, i don't mind that her moves have silly range, they just need to be punishable if you can predict them. Shes really good, and she doesn't need smashes that destroy every approach.

Now i see that most of you guys have very different opinions on zelda, so if nothing else at least explain how im wrong in all of this thinking.

 

[KOkingpin]

So i've been playing zelda for a little bit now and im noticing some things that make her a bit... different

☼ Floaty - she has a pretty floaty build making it pretty tough to combo her.
☼ Long range recovery - not saying that it isn't punishable, but its **** hard to gimp a zelda player that knows how to recover. What will probably happen on recovery is you'll have to go for the stage since they are hogging, and you'll just get hit out of a ledge hog, not very gimpable, specially if you use the dins right.
☼ Smashes (i'll go into each of these) -
- Upsmash: really really good. Not only does it combo into itself a good two or three times at 0 percent on most characters, but it completely nullifies any characters chances to make it to the ground. The size, length, and priority of this move makes it so that very few characters can get to the ground w/o getting nailed by this move, even if they airdodge.
- Fsmash: Too much range, and too safe on shield. I can't count how many approaches i can stuff just by walking away and fsmashing. Since it has such high priority, it beats many characters fsmashes and even if you want to punish it by KNOWING they will do it and going up to shield, no one can grab her cuz it has so much shield push.
- Dsmash: I don't have a problem with this move being so quick, but wow is it a little strong. If you catch most of the cast near the edge with this move, they can't recover cuz it sends you out at the worst possible angle. In melee it was a great move to get people off you, not to kill and do that as well...
☼ Combo's - she has some really great combos. Dtilt is great for hit-confirming into either fsmash, upsmash, or uptilt (three GREAT kill moves). Ftilt combos into feet very well. Upsmash combos into itself at 0 two or three times into a foot or an upair.
☼ Range/Priority - do any of her moves have crappy range/priority? all of her moves are great at outranging things...



Its really just her smashes that need to get toned down just a little bit. Fsmash probably would be fine if it just wasn't safe of shield (ie: if i know your gunna fsmash and i run up and shield it, i should be rewarded by getting a grab, no?). Upsmash would be great if they just reduced how long it lasted and maybe cut back on the range a little bit. Dsmash? just don't make it kill the entire cast by the edge at 50 damage...

Essentially i like how zelda plays... except for the smashes. I don't care that they combo or are fast they just need to be punishable in some way shape or form. I like her combos, i don't mind that her moves have silly range, they just need to be punishable if you can predict them.

this is a great post.

Ideas for smash attacks
Upsmash - have a little more BKB and a little less KBG to stop those **** early percentage combos
Fsmash - If you were going to nerf this smash then Make it have a hair more cool down. Just enough to Punish if you are fairly precise, but don't make it so any slob can punish her for Fsmashing.
Dsmash - either lower the BKB or change the angle (id prefer the first option over the second)

Her recovery is really really safe for the most part now with the ending hitbox. Its something she needed in melee.

 

[JCaesar]

I think she's fine honestly. Her smashes are really friggin good sure, but she has her weaknesses, and she's far from overpowered compared to some of the other characters in this game. Not even top 10 imo.

 

[[TSON]]

Don't mess with her, she's perfect. (Unless you wanna do something to uair, it's too good)

Dash attack -> uair (any %)
dtilt spam -> hyphen usmash -> uair (low %s)
utilt -> uair (low %s usually, sometimes works at higher)
uncharged/littlecharged Din's -> uair (any %)
uair -> uair (low %s)

 

[omegablackmage]

the only changes i think would be necessary would be slight nerfs to her smashes, just take a little of the length of the upsmash, lower the bkb of the dsmash, and make the fsmash not push shields as much (or give it a bit of cooldown). These aren't huge changes for sure, they would just make her play a little... smarter. And she is definitely in the top 10 and certainly better than sheik.

 

[Alphatron]

Usmash is fine. My friends have literrally FFAD through it and then shielded the rest when they hit the ground. It also only successfully combos into itself on all characters at REALLY low %. Level 9 cpu Fox never gets hit twice past 40% unless I chase him. It's designed as a long lasting attack, and can't really be treated like a single hit smash.

I find Dsmash having range issues personally, but I suppose that's because I use it OOS.

 

[omegablackmage]

when landing from an air dodge you suffer from at least 2 frames of landing lag and then it takes a few frames to pull your shield up. I would assume that zelda's upsmash hits at least once every 5 frames thus making fast falling through it impossible, right? Im not sure what they have changed exactly in the transition to brawl plus, but that would have been the case in vbrawl.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Usmash hit frames: 6-8-10-12-14-16...23-25-27-29-31.

Shields come up on frame 1, btw.

The fact that Usmash/Fsmash consist primarily of 1 damage linking hits with minimal KB (that don't cause clanks) means that to use them, you have to completely outprioritize the enemy's approach. If you're fighting someone who's using the right amount of aggression, the only thing Zelda's smashes are really capable of are pathetic 1 damage trades.

Usmash is good for a predictable landing, but can be baited easily and is quite punishable on its afterlag, even on block.

Fsmash is safe on block, but comes out rather slowly and suffers from the aforementioned inability to clank. Indecisive players are the ones who get wrecked by this smash.

Dsmash doesn't do a lot of damage and has punishable shield stun in the process. Though strong at higher percents, this is only at the edge where low angle sends are deadly, and where you ought to be buffering DI to begin with. With DI it doesn't actually KO that low. The BKB is actually already rather small, enough to be unsafe at/near 0 percent on hit.

 

[Alphatron]

As stated, dsmash is only useful near the edge. It's not a reliable killer when predicted even on hit. Because the opponent usually techs the ground and stunts all momentum.

I despise that so much.

 

[omegablackmage]

So then for upsmash the only way to avoid it from above is do airdodge through it between the swings? I doubt people could do that consistently, especially considering all the zelda player has to do time the start of her upsmash a little later to avoid that happening. I don't mind this move punishing people who airdodge so much, its that in conjunction with the fact that it will beat any direct approach as well (few characters could dair through this move). Few characters are fast enough in the air to avoid zelda running after them from below and pulling out a running upsmash (something that is very easy for anyone to do). I like the concept of the move, it just bothers me how easily it destroys every character that happens to be above you.

For the fsmash, i see what your saying about it trading, however very few moves in the game actually do trade with it, and if they do they are probably too slow to even be considered. Lets take marth for example: when a marth is approaching zelda all she has to do is walk slightly outside of his fsmash range and bait with fsmashes. The cooldown of the fsmash isn't enough to allow the marth to run in afterward and grab or anything else so it resets to neutral. If he tries to poke with a fair or dtilt he will eat a ranged fsmash. If whiffs any laggier attack she can walk in and fsmash. If the marth tries to run in and shield the attack (an approach that i think SHOULD work) it will push him too far away and they will be back to neutral. Theoretically, marth shouldn't have a hard time getting in on zelda considering his range, but he finds himself in situations that only put him back to neutral or getting hit by the fsmash. I just don't want to see zelda's gameplay deteriorate to this...

Dsmash is certainly punishable on block, but my main gripe with it is, that even with really good di near the edge you are only getting sent horozontal (rather than semi spiked), which doesn't help all that much. I would say that if you hit half the cast at 50% with a dsmash, even with good di, near the edge, your looking at a very easy edgeguard to kill.

Essentially, zelda boils down to opportunistic defensive play, she waits for good openings and strikes with some very hard hitting combos. That is fine, however i think she should have to work a little bit harder to achieve that defensive wall she currently has. As is, against most people, she can walk around and fsmash around anyone's attacks, if they jump, then upsmash them, if they throw projectiles: neutral b them and use your side b to poke. Her gameplay is too simple, something i don't want to see happen to any character in this game. I'm really just trying to avoid zelda falling victim to the vbrawl syndrome: where three moves is enough to wall any character and achieve victory through 8 minute camp sessions.

 

[Bandit]

This should help:

- She gets outcamped hard because she has no offense from long range. Falco, ROB, Toon Link, etc the spammy campers have the ability to camp her hard. It varies how well she does with each character, but she has problems approaching anyone.

- USmash was that dominant in vBrawl. It beats most aerials in the game, but it has so much lag if you don't land it. She runs slow and people just have to learn to save a jump to avoid the Usmash. If they bait it, she gets hurt for it.

- Marth's Fsmash outranges her Fsmash. In fact, he tippers just outside her fsmash range.

- Zelda's Fsmash is slow. People can't just walk up and fsmash; it takes some like 12 frames to hit, but it's safe once it's out.

- Her dsmash is a 4 frame kill situational kill move. If you tech right and aren't near the ledge, you can tech the bounce on the stage and pop up right in front of her with no real knockback.

- Neutral B is a crappy reflector that leaves her vulnerable if she is not a rangey distance away. You have to make sure the projectile hits your opponent or else you're left spinning like an idiot and taking damage.

- Zelda was a defensive wall in vBrawl. She got camped hard but did fairly well on aggressive characters sans sword wielders. She has power but only low% combo ability. She is still a defensive wall in brawl+ but she is not a camper.

- Zelda's entire game play is bait & punish. It was like that in vBrawl, and it is like that in Brawl+.

- Sheik is better. Zelda is mid-tier at best and not in the top 10 (unless I really missed the boat on something recently).

Hope I helped.

 

[omegablackmage]

This should help:

- She gets outcamped hard because she has no offense from long range. Falco, ROB, Toon Link, etc the spammy campers have the ability to camp her hard. It varies how well she does with each character, but she has problems approaching anyone.

- USmash was that dominant in vBrawl. It beats most aerials in the game, but it has so much lag if you don't land it. She runs slow and people just have to learn to save a jump to avoid the Usmash. If they bait it, she gets hurt for it.

- Marth's Fsmash outranges her Fsmash. In fact, he tippers just outside her fsmash range.

- Zelda's Fsmash is slow. People can't just walk up and fsmash; it takes some like 12 frames to hit, but it's safe once it's out.

- Her dsmash is a 4 frame kill situational kill move. If you tech right and aren't near the ledge, you can tech the bounce on the stage and pop up right in front of her with no real knockback.

- Neutral B is a crappy reflector that leaves her vulnerable if she is not a rangey distance away. You have to make sure the projectile hits your opponent or else you're left spinning like an idiot and taking damage.

- Zelda was a defensive wall in vBrawl. She got camped hard but did fairly well on aggressive characters sans sword wielders. She has power but only low% combo ability. She is still a defensive wall in brawl+ but she is not a camper.

- Zelda's entire game play is bait & punish. It was like that in vBrawl, and it is like that in Brawl+.

- Sheik is better. Zelda is mid-tier at best and not in the top 10 (unless I really missed the boat on something recently).

Hope I helped.

☼ I could see falco outcamping her before the laser nerf but now i would say she can probably deal with it. I understand toon link but not Rob, he seems like he's too slow to be that effective against camping, or are you suggesting that her approach game is really that bad and she is really only effective playing 100% defense?

☼ Your right, the upsmash did have similiar properties in vbrawl, however it didn't combo into itself (or upairs/kicks) nor was it 'inescapable' through di. Stuffing someone's approach in vbrawl (just as easy) didn't really punish as hard. You also have to consider the increased gravity in brawl plus that makes it much harder for someone to run away to either side.

☼ When i brought up the example of marth's fsmash i was implying that it would outrange it, however its probably the only move that would effectively outrange her fsmash. Thus, the only way to beat the fsmash is to fsmash himself, however i would say this is easily baited and retailiated.

☼ I wouldn't call 12 frames thaat slow. I would say that is below the median speed for smashes in the game by a pretty good margin. Given the pluses it offers, its a very very good smash.

☼ I don't think the dsmash is so situational that it has to be used near the edge at kill percents. Probably above 10% it works great to get people away from you if they are too close forcing them to tech, which gives you enough time to run away and reset to neutral. If they are near the edge, well then they are screwed at any percent above 50.

☼ Concerning the reflector, its not so bad that you get punished. Only a few characters come to mind that could throw a projectile that could miss on the way back and would be fast enough to worry about (pits arrows, boomerangs, maybe mario's fireballs). I really think this in combination with the sped up din's fire certainly help her deal with camping characters.

☼ In comparison to her vbrawl iteration: her smashes weren't nearly as useful as they are now. You have to consider things like increased gravity for the dsmash, you can no longer di out of the fsmash easily, and for the upsmash you had to consider staled moves and no comboability.

☼ Im curious about sheik, granted she is considerably faster and has some real sweet combos, but how exactly is she better? She has a pretty tough time killing and zelda combos just as well albeit less moves. Essentially her recovery is worse but she is a bit better at edgeguarding. I think lack of kill moves really hurts shiek's chances of top 10 whereas zelda imo easily breaks into this area.

I appreciate the insight you guys are providing, but im still not convinced her smashes aren't a bit over the top.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I feel the exact same way omegablackmage, but I haven't been able to argue my point because people think it's not valid simply because I do not personally play against Zelda's irl. Many times I've thought of posting about the same post as your original one but I haven't due to knowing that they could easily just pass it off as someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Experience is overrated, basic intelligence and theory is good enough experience just helps prove or disprove it.

Not to mention the matchup resistance Zelda has because of sheik, but I won't get into that.


But I will say this now: I think that Zelda has some stupid moves, but I don't feel they overpower her. I do however think they should be toned down because when something is stupid it's stupid whether its actually OP or not. Adding the need to have proper spacing on Zelda's smashes just makes her more skillful without nerfing her that much.

All in all the changes I personally think should be made are:

Fsmash/Usmash need proper spacing, also less safe on shield/miss
Dsmash maybe a frame or two slower and some change in KB, I like omegablackmage's idea
Remove/tone down UbB speedup (it's just as stupid as her smash attacks)

In exchange I think she should receive some small buffs to complement her bad matchups while not making her good matchups more in her favor.

 

[KOkingpin]

Adding the need to have proper spacing on Ike's Fair Zelda's smashes just makes her more skillful without nerfing her that much.

I just felt like I needed to Quote this.

 

[Rykoshet]

^ You really need to get over ike's fair to jab, **** is the basis for his game in all 3 versions of brawl and, surprise it falls apart the exact same way in each game.


"Wow I get slammed every time I try to attack between fair and jab 1"

"Why dont you just block jab 1 then"

"but fair to jab 1 is so good"

Obsesssing over it instead of just punishing the predictable followup is silly.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Fsmash hits on frame 16, which is fairly slow. You are also severely overestimating its range - that is, how far the hitbox actually extends from Zelda's own hurtboxes. Most jabs can trade it and Usmash and stuff them given proper timing. This is why I said that, to actually use these smashes to proper effect, you have to completely outprioritize the enemy or capitalize on an opening they left. Usmash's range is not that impressive, either.

The way Fsmash works right now, the outermost hitbox has to be hit or they stand some minor chance of escaping the move. Only the outermost hitbox pulls inward and has a semi-spiking angle, the others each have positive angles. In other words, it already works in a way that "requires proper spacing." You could also just not get hit by Fsmash or Usmash, it's not exactly easy for her to land either attack against patient players.

Zelda's ability to chase predictable falling air dodges with Usmash easily is offset by the fact that she's one of the slowest runners in the game, 3rd slowest with DDD. Utilt hits harder anyway and has a similarly huge hit window and coverage. Falling right on top of Zelda without a plan has always been stupid since day 1 of vBrawl.

Ask any ROB player if they can't camp a multitude of characters if they feel like it, let alone someone who moves as slowly as Zelda.

Nayru's Love is a very limited reflector. You have to devote 60 frames of your time to reflect each time you use it, which does not work in your favor unless the projectile going back has more stun than the afterlag of Nayru's, and if it's a projectile that might not hit on the way back. You can reflect things like ROB's laser or Pit's arrow if fired straight on, but angled they will leave her open if she reflects them. Falco's laser can actually be reflected by Falco back, or he can eat it and hit you while still stuck in Nayru lag.

Din's Fire was never sped up. It was never effective long range spam and it never will be at its current speed.

As it is now, fast, ranged or mobile characters give Zelda a very hard time with her UpB, even with speed up. Jigglypuff, Marth, Fox are a couple of characters you don't even want to UpB against if you can help it. If you want to kill her well, just send her skyward. She's a very easy character to KO vertically. You can also look at a better recovery to complain about, Peach's.

Anyway, each of Zelda's moves have a fairly high amount of utility. While her smashes are good, they're not brick walls that you can throw around. Familiarity with Zelda just makes her that much easier to deal with, and players in this game aren't patient. Zelda's great at ripping those players to shreds.

 

[JCaesar]

☼ I could see falco outcamping her before the laser nerf but now i would say she can probably deal with it. I understand toon link but not Rob, he seems like he's too slow to be that effective against camping, or are you suggesting that her approach game is really that bad and she is really only effective playing 100% defense?

The only way Zelda can deal with a camping ROB is to hold on to his gyro. If not, he can easily fire both his projectiles in such a way that they can't hit him when she reflects them, and he can use the other one to punish the endlag. And if she just tries to shield everything, that just makes ROB's job even easier. Both his projectiles are great at shieldpoking.

 

[Bandit]

☼ I could see falco outcamping her before the laser nerf but now i would say she can probably deal with it. I understand toon link but not Rob, he seems like he's too slow to be that effective against camping, or are you suggesting that her approach game is really that bad and she is really only effective playing 100% defense?

In short, yes I am saying that. She has to stay inside a range that is not comfortable for her opponent to spam projectiles, but not close enough that she can't use her range to her advantage. As far as individual match-ups are concerned:

Falco - pretty even
TL - Lobos kicked my *** but I don't think it's too far in TL's favor
ROB - aggressive ROB loses, camping ROB wins

Her dins fire has no camping ability at all. If they don't want to get hit, they simply shield. ROB's gyro and laser come out faster than dins and once she takes a hit, she can't control her dins.

☼ Your right, the upsmash did have similiar properties in vbrawl, however it didn't combo into itself (or upairs/kicks) nor was it 'inescapable' through di. Stuffing someone's approach in vbrawl (just as easy) didn't really punish as hard. You also have to consider the increased gravity in brawl plus that makes it much harder for someone to run away to either side.

I mained Zelda in both games, and I use Usmash less in Brawl+ then I did in vBrawl. vBrawl it was her best move, hands down, because it damage racked and killed. It still does both, but she has quicker, less punishable options.

Only the fast falling characters combo Usmash into itself for the most part (Poor Captain Falcon) and it generally is at the beginning of their life.

☼ When i brought up the example of marth's fsmash i was implying that it would outrange it, however its probably the only move that would effectively outrange her fsmash. Thus, the only way to beat the fsmash is to fsmash himself, however i would say this is easily baited and retailiated.

☼ I wouldn't call 12 frames thaat slow. I would say that is below the median speed for smashes in the game by a pretty good margin. Given the pluses it offers, its a very very good smash. [/QUOTE]

It's not out ranging Fsmash; it is being faster than it. As Ryoko pointed out, 16th frame Fsmash hits. It is the slowest to hit ground move in her arsenal, but it is safe once it is out. It has range, but you can spot dodge the entire move, shield it, or jump. It is a good smash, but it is a defensive move. I have spaced with it, but it usually is to keep people at bay or a reaction to an approach.

☼ I don't think the dsmash is so situational that it has to be used near the edge at kill percents. Probably above 10% it works great to get people away from you if they are too close forcing them to tech, which gives you enough time to run away and reset to neutral. If they are near the edge, well then they are screwed at any percent above 50.

It's a good offensive and defensive smash. It's range is limited and it hits at frame 4 in front. At beginning percents within close enough range can have both hits make contact with the opponent. Let's just say this makes up for her very subpar jab (7 frames?). It is not safe on block. If you block the first hit, she is easily punished.

☼ Concerning the reflector, its not so bad that you get punished. Only a few characters come to mind that could throw a projectile that could miss on the way back and would be fast enough to worry about (pits arrows, boomerangs, maybe mario's fireballs). I really think this in combination with the sped up din's fire certainly help her deal with camping characters.

You are still not realizing just how much wind down is part of this move. Here is the vBrawl frame data:

Startup: 1-12
Hitbox: 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28 (6 hits)
Cooldown: 29-59
IASA: frame 60

Invincibility: 5-11
Reflects: 5-44

To my knowledge and the change list, there haven't been any frame speed-ups. You are stuck spinning from frame 29-60 without a hitbox. This is a huge window for punishment. Characters can semi-charge smashes or start up big combos without resistance. It's not safe anywhere near an opponent.

Also, like Ryoko said, there is no dins speed-up. You just don't free fall anymore.

☼ In comparison to her vbrawl iteration: her smashes weren't nearly as useful as they are now. You have to consider things like increased gravity for the dsmash, you can no longer di out of the fsmash easily, and for the upsmash you had to consider staled moves and no comboability.

I will call you out and tell you that you are dead wrong. U-Smash, F-Smash and D-Smash were her most used moves in vBrawl. D-tilt became her best move (essentially a jab and trip trap) but her other tilts were practically useless. Her aerials are ok but she doesn't want to get into an aerial war with most of the cast. Her jab was just dumb.

Now, her smashes don't have to be overused. Ftilt was sped up making it usable. Jab was altered and has uses (though not as a jab but for defense). Dtilt isn't as potent but it's still just as useful. In vBrawl, her smashes were all she had.

☼ Im curious about sheik, granted she is considerably faster and has some real sweet combos, but how exactly is she better? She has a pretty tough time killing and zelda combos just as well albeit less moves. Essentially her recovery is worse but she is a bit better at edgeguarding. I think lack of kill moves really hurts shiek's chances of top 10 whereas zelda imo easily breaks into this area.

Far more favorable match-ups, speed, combos are easily performed at all percents, and I have not seen a Sheik have problems killing. She doesn't need Zelda unless it's a very heavy character she just can't get rid of. She stands alone far better than Zelda, and I would say she's in the discussion for top 10.

Zelda has top 10 kill moves, but a slow arsenal, harder combos, and lack of approaches hold her back. You can pretty much look at the match-up listings for vBrawl and apply them to Brawl+ for Zelda. She still has the same drawbacks she used to have.

I appreciate the insight you guys are providing, but im still not convinced her smashes aren't a bit over the top.

If all this is over smashes, then you haven't branched out far enough into the character. That's not a criticism, but her smashes keep her relevant on the tournament scene.

 

[omegablackmage]

Fair responses, i'll have to teach people these exact counter strategies and see if they are easily avoided on my part. I'll get back to you guys on how that goes.

And its not really so much that i haven't branched out with zelda's other moves enough, its just that i feel that her smashes in particular need to be toned down a bit. All of her other moves are great and i think they fit in well with the character design and how the game should work.

 

[[TSON]]

If you tone down her smashes she's going to be even worse than she already is. And she's pretty bad right now.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Zelda isn't bad right now at all.

 

[Bandit]

She is middle of the pack. While she has improved from her vBrawl form, so has every other charcter. Her match-ups haven't exactly changed much because of her weaknesses. She has a more diverse game, but it is still centered on defensive ability with bait and punish.

I'll disagree with smashes being toned down because they are rather balanced. Usmash if you miss has bad wind down. Fsmash is slow to hit and can be spot dodged. Dsmash is not safe on block. They all have risk/reward and aren't over powered where you die at ridiculous percents. If they were overpowered, I would admit it and ask them to be toned down as well. As they are, they aren't much different from their vBrawl counterparts and kill similarly.

 

[omegablackmage]

seems like theres a large discrepancy in her abilities, i would rate her in the top ten easily, whereas a lot of you guys seem to think she at either half or below... kinda wierd.

Also, bandit, when you word it that way, i would suggest that only the fsmash be changed. When you look at it everyone's fsmash is really unsafe on block... or it has an incredibly amount of start up (20+ frames), just seems a little silly to me for one to have both speed and safe on block.

 

[Mattnumbers]

12 frames is NOT slow. Lucas's Fsmash takes 14 frames and I consider it to be fast.

I mean really, that's slightly more than a 6th of a second.

 

[JCaesar]

It's 16 frames, not 12 Matt.

Wario's fsmash is superior to Zelda's in every way. Faster, hits harder, safer on block. Just fyi. Lucas's is faster and safe on block too.

OBM, if you want me to, I could list at least a dozen characters who I truly believe are better than Zelda in the current metagame.

 

[Bandit]

I've mained her in vBrawl and Brawl+ exclusively. I don't see where people think she is a fantastic character; I like her because she fits my style of play.

MK, Marth, Snake, Ike, Toon Link, Wolf, G&W, Olimar, ROB, and others all have the advantage on her whether small or large. That was just off the top of my head.

Edit: Even though it is 16 frames, 12 frames is slow in this game. Average human reaction time is between .15 & .30 seconds. That leaves a full 6 to 9 frames to simply jab, shield, spot dodge, grab, etc. (using your math, Matt)

 

[RyokoYaksa]

It's a general rule of thumb that Fsmashes that don't have the character moving forward are safe on block. There's a bunch of them.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Any good Zelda+ videos showing how too good/not good/okay Zelda is?

 

[shanus]

Any good Zelda+ videos showing how too good/not good/okay Zelda is?

youtube ryoko vs magus

 

[Mattnumbers]

Oh, If it's 16 frames then that isn't that bad really. I still think it should have to be properly spaced.

 

[omegablackmage]

I assume a reasonable moving character like marth/mario/etc. Obviously ganon sucks at punishing oos

Red being always safe on block,
orange being, really only safe on block when maximum range is used.
White means your gunna get punished no matter where someone shields this move.

ddd - 42
snake - 41
ike - 29
link - 15, 29 (earliest 2nd hit)
tlink - 15, 27 (")
bowser - 26
mk - 24
lucario - 22
charizard - 22
dk - 22
ness - 21
ganon - 21
sonic - 18
squirtle - 18
cfalc - 18
gw - 17
ivysaur - 17
jiggz - 16
falco - 16
zelda - 16
pikachu - 15
peach - 15
mario - 15
yoshi - 14
kirby - 14
lucas - 14
fox - 13
rob - 13
luigi - 12
diddy - 12
olimar - 11
wolf - 10
samus - 10
marth - 10
wario - 9
pit - 6
sheik - 5

of course which is safe on block is somewhat arguable, but zelda is definitely out of place...

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ness's Fsmash is safe on block iirc

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Tha can't be a B+ list, sorry.

 

[GHNeko]

...Are you counting Mario sweetspot for Fsmash? WHen Angled up? >_>