Zelda+: OP In-Process of Overhaul as of 04-05-10

[Andarel]

Can anyone give me tips on how to space fair, dair, and bair? I can only sweetspot, like, once out of 10 times.

It's hard to explain, but realize this - the toe of her foot needs to be the only hitbox that connects, and it has to connect as soon as it extends. Dair isn't hard to space, but it only works on airborne targets (it always 5% sourspots on grounded peeps). For fair and bair, shb/fair is easier now, so just practice... =\ Try it on DK first, keep working until you can reliably get it on most people. If you don't get it 100% on like squirtle or olimar, whatever.

Also, just work against CPUs. Bair is faster, Fair is a tad bigger. Generally, bair is easier to hit with though.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'll try that.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The sweetspots of all the kicks actually have priority if the weaker hitboxes overlap them, too. As long as the sweetspots overlap their hurtbox, it will sweetspot. However, they are all one 1 frame long, so be precise in your aim.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

In the current tournament build, Zelda is entirely too broken. People won't even play against me if I choose her. =(

 

[JCaesar]

You need to find better friends then. Zelda ain't broke.

 

[weinzey]

she's to simple though imo (which might be the similar to broke in low/mid skill sector, but that shouldnt be taken into consideration ofc)
u can just spam smashes without getting punished if u use them at the right time.
@ryoko: i know usmash aint safe on shield

 

[Bandit]

she's to simple though imo (which might be the similar to broke in low/mid skill sector, but that shouldnt be taken into consideration ofc)
u can just spam smashes without getting punished if u use them at the right time.
@ryoko: i know usmash aint safe on shield

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wroooong
Wrong wrong wrong wrong wroooong
You're wrooooong
You're wrooooong
~Courtesy of Dr. Cox (Scrubs)

All her smashes are mad punishable as they last a long time. She is not broken in the least, and it takes a considerable amount of skill to take her basic repertoire and play at high tournament levels.

She is simplistic because her level of tech skill is lower, but she requires precision spacing, mind games, and smart move choices to succeed. If you are getting by with slamming the c-stick, then I agree with JCaesar: find some new friends because they ones you have suck.

The End.

:bandit:

 

[weinzey]

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wroooong
Wrong wrong wrong wrong wroooong
You're wrooooong
You're wrooooong
~Courtesy of Dr. Cox (Scrubs)

haha, too good.

first off, i dont play zelda, so what i say are just impressions i got from playing against them, so plz correct me if i'm wrong.
ist fsmash safe on shield since it pushes them away too far to punish?
and usmash has to be baited in order to be able to get punished when airborne afaik. and since it's a really good anti-air move and really fast it has an excellent risk-reward ratio.

keep in mind i do NOT think she's broke, i just like discussing
though some depth make her more interesting imo, but that's up to u zelda mains.
but after all there's a ****load of stuff i'm more concerned about than zelda...even hugh jackman

 

[Colin Mitchell]

4.1 Din's fire = way too good. No joke. There's no way half the cast can punish her for it with the tiny lag time after explosion, it's so **** fast and it eats so many projectiles, plus the explosion gets HUGE. No matter where your opponent is, you can force them to try to clash/shield/dodge. That's broken imo.

Vids to follow if I can get a camera working.

 

[Revven]

4.1 Din's fire = way too good. No joke. There's no way half the cast can punish her for it with the tiny lag time after explosion, it's so **** fast and it eats so many projectiles, plus the explosion gets HUGE. No matter where your opponent is, you can force them to try to clash/shield/dodge. That's broken imo.

Vids to follow if I can get a camera working.

Din's Fire was never changed from vBrawl to Brawl+ 4.1 to Brawl+ 5.0... it is the same in all the builds that have ever been released.

 

[kciD]

The only thing I have to say about Zelda+ (which I've said before) is that she should be able to do *two* kicks in one short hop. Either the kick recovery a little shorter, the entire kick a little faster, her gravity reduced a tad, or something. This was possible in Melee, and actually was a good tactic, and a lot of people got punished for trying to sneak in between the kicks.

The Din's fire could use a tad smaller hitbox and knockback on the explosion; I always thought it was too big in vBrawl.

Other than that I think Zelda+ seems really good (as of the last plussery release, 4.1B). I've considered maining her.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Din's Fire is not a good projectile for a multitude of reasons. Even with the big hitbox it can achieve, its rate of fire is very slow that there's no way to catch someone by surprise with it. 2 hitting frames in all iterations are extremely easy to dodge, roll, shield, etc. The fact that Din's Fire forces you to do so means little when all are extremely effective ways of dealing with it, without putting yourself at risk.

Familiarity with Din's Fire killed its effectiveness in vBrawl and it's no different here. It's truly a very shallow projectile, killed further by the fact that Zelda must devote her whole being to directing it and 33 frames after detonating it (which is quite long, mind you).

 

[Bandit]

Din's Fire is not a good projectile for a multitude of reasons. Even with the big hitbox it can achieve, its rate of fire is very slow that there's no way to catch someone by surprise with it. 2 hitting frames in all iterations are extremely easy to dodge, roll, shield, etc. The fact that Din's Fire forces you to do so means little when all are extremely effective ways of dealing with it, without putting yourself at risk.

Familiarity with Din's Fire killed its effectiveness in vBrawl and it's no different here. It's truly a very shallow projectile, killed further by the fact that Zelda must devote her whole being to directing it and 33 frames after detonating it (which is quite long, mind you).

100% True

Its most effectiveness is in teams. In singles, it is simply an annoyance to an opponent that should never really hit them nor cause them to be put in a bad situation.

:bandit:

 

[BRLNK88]

Kirby because of how fun they are to play,
:bandit:

More than just fun to play, he's really EASY to pick-up.
His move-set is fairly straight-forward, it's just a matter of figuring out what moves work best in what situation. And his bair just ***** so hard, especially if you use it right before you hit the stage, there's like no lag at all. You can get right back up and use another attack, which is great for pressuring a shield.
He's my number one counter against my friend who mains Falcon in +, whom he just out-maneuvers and out-prioritizes. I've only ever lost once, and it was a really close match.
His only issue at times is his slow air speed, and having to deal with projectiles.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

I don't believe I ever once mentioned spamming C'stick in every direction, and neither did I ever once mention that I was talking about my friends. >.> I've been trying to create an active B+ scene here in Norcal for a couple of months now, and when I finally get my local Brawl Monthly T.O. to hold a B+ tournament it has to be under the stipulation that we use 5.0 because no one will play in 4.1 because Zelda is so broken. Even playing a brand new build that I had never even seen before, I took third in a tournament of 18 people, losing only to a Snake player (who he switched to after I ***** his Fox) and then a Marth player, who only NARROWLY beat me, both of whom are PR ranked in vBrawl in Norcal.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Din's Fire is not a good projectile for a multitude of reasons. Even with the big hitbox it can achieve, its rate of fire is very slow that there's no way to catch someone by surprise with it. 2 hitting frames in all iterations are extremely easy to dodge, roll, shield, etc. The fact that Din's Fire forces you to do so means little when all are extremely effective ways of dealing with it, without putting yourself at risk.

Familiarity with Din's Fire killed its effectiveness in vBrawl and it's no different here. It's truly a very shallow projectile, killed further by the fact that Zelda must devote her whole being to directing it and 33 frames after detonating it (which is quite long, mind you).

From what I am hearing, you don't use din's to it's full potential, but rather wish it was more like other projectiles in the game. Din's is a unique projectile in every sense of the word, and should be used as such, especially in B+ where it never stales. Din's is probably the best Gimp move that Zelda has in her possession, as well as an excellent way for her to guard her recovery now that it no longer puts you into freefall. I can't even count the number of times that I have made an opponent that was trying to recover have to choose on the fly between taking a fully charged din's fire, or dodging it and falling to their death, or the number of time that I have quick released a dins fire just as a bait. There's also the fact that Din's is such a unique projectile in the way that it's hit box grows larger depending on the time that it has been active, that even the best opponents never become COMPLETELY familiar with it. Sending a dins behind an opponent and then twisting it slightly up at the last second so that the corner of the explosion hits the weak corner of the shield irks rage and disbelief out of my opponents and spectators every time, and I have been doing it since brawl came out.

 

[Bandit]

From what I am hearing, you don't use din's to it's full potential, but rather wish it was more like other projectiles in the game. Din's is a unique projectile in every sense of the word, and should be used as such, especially in B+ where it never stales. Din's is probably the best Gimp move that Zelda has in her possession, as well as an excellent way for her to guard her recovery now that it no longer puts you into freefall. I can't even count the number of times that I have made an opponent that was trying to recover have to choose on the fly between taking a fully charged din's fire, or dodging it and falling to their death, or the number of time that I have quick released a dins fire just as a bait. There's also the fact that Din's is such a unique projectile in the way that it's hit box grows larger depending on the time that it has been active, that even the best opponents never become COMPLETELY familiar with it. Sending a dins behind an opponent and then twisting it slightly up at the last second so that the corner of the explosion hits the weak corner of the shield irks rage and disbelief out of my opponents and spectators every time, and I have been doing it since brawl came out.

I am laughing so hard that I just peed a little.

You... TheFoot... just tried explaining the use of Dins Fire to one of the best Zelda's in the country and the best Zelda in Brawl+. Ryoko is responsible for shaping Zelda+.

As to your other point:

Zelda is middle tier at best. Her smashes have good hit boxes but are punishable. Her projectile is not able to camp opponents. She gets camped hard. VERY HARD. Anyone with range against her, wins. This is her rep, and it is still the same from vBrawl.

Zelda is far from broken. Far.

If your TO's want to talk on here, I will gladly tell them the same thing. I could give them a list of characters that, when the players of generally the same skill set, she will struggle with (Marth, Snake, G&W, Olimar, Metaknight...)

 

[Reidlos Toof]

How can you have shaped (past tense) a character that is constantly being modified? With every new version, aspects of her, as well as aspects of other characters with advantages over her are being changed. In vBrawl, yes, Din's was a mediocre move. The thing is, I don't give a **** about vBrawl, it is a horrible horrible imbalanced campfest of a game. In Brawl+ it is an excellent pressure move. After it lands from behind an opponent the first time, whether it lands again or not in the match is irrelevant. They will always be apprehensive of it and that sets up some excellent mind games and baits.

As for whether or not Zelda is actually broken, I have no idea. I am just starting up the Brawl+ scene here and all I know is what people are telling me after I play her against them, so maybe I am just that good, because I assure you that the people I am playing against and hearing all of this from are not just some random locals, they are PR Panelists and Ranked players.

 

[JCaesar]

Ryoko is in the WBR and (I'm pretty sure) is responsible for every change Zelda+ has received. So yes, he has in fact shaped Zelda+ into what she is. He is the best Zelda+ main by a wide margin (except maybe for NinjaLink? Iunno) and he undoubtedly knows Zelda+ better than anyone else.

There isn't enough tournament data to prove how good Zelda+ is, but no region with an established Brawl+ scene (unless you count wifi as a "region") considers Zelda+ to be even in the top 10. Just FYI. Once your region delves deeper into the game they will probably agree. There are plenty of nastier characters than Zelda.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Zelda IS OP on Wifi lol, her moves work great in combination with input lag.

And also, some place in canada has actually reported her being OP in their tourney scene as well iirc. So I guess that's two places.

Not to say I think she's OP.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Ryoko is in the WBR and (I'm pretty sure) is responsible for every change Zelda+ has received. So yes, he has in fact shaped Zelda+ into what she is. He is the best Zelda+ main by a wide margin (except maybe for NinjaLink? Iunno) and he undoubtedly knows Zelda+ better than anyone else.

There isn't enough tournament data to prove how good Zelda+ is, but no region with an established Brawl+ scene (unless you count wifi as a "region") considers Zelda+ to be even in the top 10. Just FYI. Once your region delves deeper into the game they will probably agree. There are plenty of nastier characters than Zelda.

Fair enough, but just because you know a character better than everyone else doesn't necessarily mean you know the matchups better than everyone else, especially not in a game that is constantly changing. I don't presume to be the best, I just feel that you may be just predisposed to think that Din's is a mediocre projectile due to matchups against people who could simply read you. For example, I second Link and until recently I almost never used Zair because my friend (who plays against a samus player on an almost daily basis) would just read the Zair and punish it. Since I've been playing Link less aagainst that friend and more against people I don't know, I've found that Zair is far more useful. Maybe your right and familiarity does defeat Din's, but then you should work to unfamiliarize your opponent with the way you use it. That's what I do, and it works very well.

 

[Bandit]

Fair enough, but just because you know a character better than everyone else doesn't necessarily mean you know the matchups better than everyone else, especially not in a game that is constantly changing. I don't presume to be the best, I just feel that you may be just predisposed to think that Din's is a mediocre projectile due to matchups against people who could simply read you. For example, I second Link and until recently I almost never used Zair because my friend (who plays against a samus player on an almost daily basis) would just read the Zair and punish it. Since I've been playing Link less aagainst that friend and more against people I don't know, I've found that Zair is far more useful. Maybe your right and familiarity does defeat Din's, but then you should work to unfamiliarize your opponent with the way you use it. That's what I do, and it works very well.

Do you understand what makes a good player, um, good? It's their ability to know the character they are facing, knowing the player they are playing, and reading their attacks.

Just because you can explode a dins at different times and your opponents can't adapt doesn't make it a good projectile. It means the tiny sample size that you have to play with is not a high level of competition. If you are gimping them because they chose to air dodge and die, then they did not recover correctly. If they are too far out and choose to not get hit by the dins you throw, then they have chosen incorrectly as dins would give them their jump back and elevate them again. If your opponent can't see the start up from a quick fire dins and shield, they are not paying attention to you.

Quick fires are risky but sometimes effective. Dins is good off-level pressure and can lead to LKs or Uair. Dins is not a good singles projectile.

If you want to talk about teams, then you can sing to the world how Zelda is one of the best team characters in the game. Dins is a part of that, but in singles, dins is a heavily punishable projectile that leaves you vulnerable to punishment.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Maybe I am arguing my point wrong... Din's can be extremely good, but only if you are good at using it. If you don't practice in it extensively (the way I have since in vBrawl I was the campiest Zelda of all time) then it can be shield pressure at best, or a giant opening in your defense at worst. If you can read your opponent, I think that Din's is probably the third best projectile in the game (after snakes grenades and diddy's bananas). It doesn't really matter what I say though, because words have a limit to their worth. Once I am able to start recording my matches, I'll be able to upload them and show you what I mean, which will hopefully be very soon.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Oh and does Ryoko have Zelda+ Vids? If he's really that good I'd like to see them and learn from him. I've heard of him before but have never even seen him play in vBrawl. I learned from watching people like Dark Musician, Maos, and Villi

 

[Mattnumbers]

All I know is that Dins ***** Ness and Lucas recoveries DX. At least Lucas can tether/zap jump magnet pull though.

And you can't absorb it unless your high up because the absorb lag makes you fall far enough that you have to use PKT (Which is slower than a dins from the ledge).

Also, I still don't see how Dins is risky, I mean, if your using it from all the way across the stage there's nothing they can punish you with sans their own projectile. 32(iirc, maybe 36) frames of lag isn't enough to run across the stage and hit Zelda. Same with off-stage. I know it's easy to dodge but really it's much easier to approach/recover without having to dodge a Dins every 2 seconds.

EDIT: By the way I'm not saying to nerf it, I'm just saying that I think it's less punishable than you guys think.

 

[Bandit]

Maybe I am arguing my point wrong... Din's can be extremely good, but only if you are good at using it. If you don't practice in it extensively (the way I have since in vBrawl I was the campiest Zelda of all time) then it can be shield pressure at best, or a giant opening in your defense at worst. If you can read your opponent, I think that Din's is probably the third best projectile in the game (after snakes grenades and diddy's bananas). It doesn't really matter what I say though, because words have a limit to their worth. Once I am able to start recording my matches, I'll be able to upload them and show you what I mean, which will hopefully be very soon.

Nice try at condescending remarks, but I have used dins extensively since vBrawl too, and I have my own success stories with it. Zelda can't camp with it since all the opponent has to do is walk forward and shield. It does not stop them from approaching and becomes too risky with the cool down when they get close.

I think I have said this in this thread before a few times. If you have matches, talk to people who post them up and I am sure you can send them the matches to put up on YouTube. Tons of people do this because diversity helps.

Besides, I only have videos of me playing from a few months back, and no one else has ever submitted videos.

Oh and does Ryoko have Zelda+ Vids? If he's really that good I'd like to see them and learn from him. I've heard of him before but have never even seen him play in vBrawl. I learned from watching people like Dark Musician, Maos, and Villi

Ryoko does have vidz, but none of them are recent was the last news I heard. Ryoko can speak for himself on that, and I heard this a few weeks ago when I encountered the same problem when I was asked for vidz of me.

All I know is that Dins ***** Ness and Lucas recoveries DX. At least Lucas can tether/zap jump magnet pull though.

And you can't absorb it unless your high up because the absorb lag makes you fall far enough that you have to use PKT (Which is slower than a dins from the ledge).

Also, I still don't see how Dins is risky, I mean, if your using it from all the way across the stage there's nothing they can punish you with sans their own projectile. 32(iirc, maybe 36) frames of lag isn't enough to run across the stage and hit Zelda. Same with off-stage. I know it's easy to dodge but really it's much easier to approach/recover without having to dodge a Dins every 2 seconds.

EDIT: By the way I'm not saying to nerf it, I'm just saying that I think it's less punishable than you guys think.

No one is arguing dins being safe from across the stage. The opponent can dodge it or shield it very easily from that distance. We'll still throw them because we are Zelda, but they should never be hit. Dins at close range has a ton of cool down and leads to problems. Simple fair from say, ROB, goes through dins while you eat the lag and more of his fairs. A quick aerial like Marth's fair or really any aerial but a multi hit aerial (in most cases) goes right through dins without punishment. This is why up close, even the quick fires, can be defeated easily.

I like dins. If you are reading into this that it's horrible and I hate it, then you are wrong in your assumption. It is just not anywhere near as good as people who don't know how to deal with it make it out to be.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Just to clarify something (because I just watched a number of your videos to see how you play) But do you ever Din Glide for a close din's fire? Maybe I missed it or you just don't do it, but I don't see you Din Gliding even once in the videos I watched. It makes quick fires much less risky if you din glide backwards when you use them.

 

[Dan_X]

I think that Din's is probably the third best projectile in the game (after snakes grenades and diddy's bananas). It doesn't really matter what I say though, because words have a limit to their worth.

ROFL! My friend plays Zelda on occasion, and makes good use of gliding Dins, and I can still tell you dins is easily avoided. No seriously there's virtually no pressure becuase I can see it coming from a mile away and have plenty of time to decide how I'd like to dodge it. I'd go so far as to say Falco has one of the best projectiles and projectile games in Brawl+. There's no way that Dins is more menacing and/or effective than Falco's lasers, that's absurd.

 

[jalued]

ROFL! My friend plays Zelda on occasion, and makes good use of gliding Dins, and I can still tell you dins is easily avoided. No seriously there's virtually no pressure becuase I can see it coming from a mile away and have plenty of time to decide how I'd like to dodge it. I'd go so far as to say Falco has one of the best projectiles and projectile games in Brawl+. There's no way that Dins is more menacing and/or effective than Falco's lasers, that's absurd.

yeah but falco is a good zelda counter: zeldas weakness is approach, and falco is awesome at camping lol. but yeah zeldas projectile is hardly the best.

 

[crazycrackers]

For me, Zelda projectiles seem to be used for the purpose of making people come to you so YOU don't have to approach, if you can damage your opponent on the way thats great, but their real value comes in their ability to eliminate the need to approach for her (which she really isn't good at). From my experience, that is its real use, because against someone who knows what they're doing, you won't that much success with it compared to other better projectiles. Thus falco countering her would make sense, since she can't outcamp him.

 

[Andarel]

'nades, bananas, Falco's lasers, Pit's arrows. I really can't think of any other projectiles that could come close to those in terms of usefulness.

The problem with Din's Fire is that it can't be used to stop people from camping against Zelda. It's very easy to dodge, which means once a player figures out about when it's gonna get detonated it loses most of its usefulness - and if you hit 1/5 of Din's Fires against a well-ranged camping opponent that's still not going to help you much (especially if they've got a long ranged projectile - vs Falco or Pit, they can hit you during Din's and still have enough time to dodge the easy-to-predict explosion).

Seriously, Din's isn't even all that an amazing projectile to force approaches due to its endlag - if they're far away they can approach at a moderate pace and close distance, dodging Din's as they get further into its range. Since Zelda's range isn't so great and she can't really approach, you have to play it smart (though a close-range Din's is rewarding and can land kills from fair/uair/bair/offstage dair (though LK is usually better at those stage places)).

It's not trash, but it's by no means one of the game's top projectiles.

Edit: Falco has been one of my hardest Zelda matchups, I usually switch to Sheik against him. I'm not great, but seriously - her large size, not-so-great fall speed and lack of ranged moves (seriously, lasers lol hard at Din's due to sending it into autopilot) really show through in that matchup.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

It's funny, Falco has always been one of my best matchups as Zelda. No matter who's falco I play against I never seem to have any of the problems that other people complain about.

 

[GreyFox86]

yeah but falco is a good zelda counter: zeldas weakness is approach, and falco is awesome at camping lol. but yeah zeldas projectile is hardly the best.

Depends on the skill of the player.

In regular Brawl, YES her biggest problem is approaching.

But after playing B+ yesterday, I noticed that alot of people tend to move towards Zelda than the opposite.

And its not to say that you can't PS Falco's laser games. If he camps PS, what else can he do...approach?

IMO as a Zelda main, BAIT is all you need. But then again I don't play on my Wii much so I might be spouting off at the mouth. xD

 

[GHNeko]

You are not going to lurk in this thread to get better. Go away. :x

 

[Bandit]

It's funny, Falco has always been one of my best matchups as Zelda. No matter who's falco I play against I never seem to have any of the problems that other people complain about.

The majority of skilled smash players disagree with you. On everything. If you want to prove us wrong, put up videos. The stupid contradicting everything everyone says because the tiny sample size you play against can't handle basic moves is annoying and not helpful in the least.

Vids or it didn't happen.

:bandit:

 

[GreyFox86]

You are not going to lurk in this thread to get better. Go away. :x

Go away?

I already told you I know Zelda like the back of my hand.

Not to mention this is topic is under a board I come to regularly.

Don't be blastin me cause I wanted to comment on a post a marth main stated.

If you wanna lose to me that bad then just wait till HOBO 19.

 

[GHNeko]

Lol. I'm messing with you man. xD

<3 Grayfox.

Also, btw guys. Brawl+ has character forums. :V

Get on that.

 

[Bandit]

Zeldas: all 3 of us should actually talk about the character. Strengths, weaknesses, gameplay--you know, the thing we are suppose to be talking about.

I'm tired of this thread just sitting around doing nothing, so I'll start the topic.

Combos. Every character has them, but we need to know what options we have at our hands and at what times. Start posting the TRUE combos you have. If it only works on certain characters, post it. I can tell you that Wolf will negate most of the combos on this list by simply smashing his reflector while he is in hit stun.

:bandit:

PS - When I said 3 of us, it's suppose to be a clue for people who play her to step up and contribute.

 

[Andarel]

Usmash seems to be your best friend at low percents for comboing, though I don't have the exact details on how it works (w/ DI) and what it links into. I know that I've gotten ftilt (tipped) -> usmash -> uair / LK at 0 on a few characters, but on floaties you've got a bit of trouble.

Her amped-up bthrow helps to kill, but she really can't combo into a grab from what I've seen. And a dtilt that would pop someone up to grab height is better followed up with LK / utilt generally.

Uthrow - uair...we all know how it works. On less characters now (fastfallers, I think. Haven't tested extensively.) but it's business as usual.

Her best-ranged move that is actually reliable is dash attack. Not sure exactly what it combos into, I think I generally don't react fast enough to get things out of it...LK or uair out of a perfect dash attack is probably theoretically possible with bad DI.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

on the front page you mention dins to lk might be a combo i am here to confirm this since i did it today.

Also i have a question did they change her d-air so the sweet-spot is bigger? i seem to be hitting it more.

it seems to me zelda is still not a very combo heavy character which i dont feel is a big deal since the few combos she seems to have can rack up dmg pretty fast plus she has tons of mussel for killing. (just my opinion/thought)

i also feel like all zelda mains should try to learn sheik since brawl+ is the 1st game were both of them are useful. i am a zelda main but for trouble matches like oli sheik comes in handy.(sorry if this has been mention or is taboo but i have not been here for a while)

lastly what are the thoughts of were zelda is ranked right now in brawl+ b/c i feel she is one of the better characters and if you can play both her and sheik you don't really have any weaknesses

sorry if people find this post useless like i've said i've been gone awhile so i don't know if i wrote any redundant ideas here