Zelda+: OP In-Process of Overhaul as of 04-05-10

[Andarel]

Against Squirtle, Falco, Olimar, Ivysaur I tend to go Sheik ASAP. Against anyone else with silly ranging and good projectiles (Marth is a toss-up, depends on playstyle; I've yet to face a good Diddy; Samus I tend to go Sheik) it varies. Sheik is soooo good now, and using both well is incredibly useful. Been working on it for a while.

Zelda herself, I'm not sure - however, the Zelda/Sheik combination is definitely a good pair.

Din's to LK is definitely a combo, but it depends on percent and DI - works better at lower percents, with a weaker Din's, on bad DI (towards and up).

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i was wondering were people thought zelda placed since in the peach brawl+ character discussion they have post which say who they think are in the top 10 and zelda was not listed (sheik was) i feel the brawl+ zelda could easily be in the top 10. i guess i am wondering why zelda is not getting respect. is it b/c not enough people play her or sheik is over shadowing her, or they are all fools who don't understand just how good she is which we the zelda users can use to one day rise up and crush them all (bwhaha). (my guess is not enough people play her)

 

[JCaesar]

Zelda has a predictable/punishable recovery, gets ***** by camping, and is just too slow to keep up with some characters. She's a solid character but she ain't top 10 material. There are too many other really good characters with less exploitable weaknesses.

She's amazing in teams though.

 

[Andarel]

^ You also forgot that she's quite large, has a so-so weight, and her gtfo moves strike low (barring nair, which is your best panic button - with the possible exception of dtilt). She can kill obscenely early and has some great easy mode combos, but Sheik is better right now, due to gimping godliness and great movement speed / comboability.

However, Z/S support each other quite well now. Together they may be top 10 material, hell, Sheik may be top 10 material right now. However, Zelda is most definitely not.

Sidenote: Zelda's glide toss is soooo good. Take that Diddy Kong :<

 

[Mattnumbers]

Having so-so weight isn't a weakness, that's just a neutral factor.

And you guys can't forget that Sheik and Zelda are always able to be played together. Unless they both share a weakness in the same matchup they can't really be CPed at all.

Right now I think Zelda is just right(ish), and I think Sheik should be brought closer to her level just because the closer they are, the less chance one will get overshadowed. Additionally if Sheik was at Zelda's level they would still be really good when used in conjunction with each other. And I don't want Zelda buffed to sheiks level because that would be completely OP if you had two top 10 characters that can change into each other at will during a match.

I'm telling you guys, Matchup resistance is a huge strength.

I say we nerf Wifi Zelda by giving her more lag than everyone else as well, she's way OP.

 

[Andarel]

The thing is, she's pretty heavy and very large, meaning that she's not that hard to combo. At the same time, she's light enough that she dies at a decent percent. Considering her only combo breaker is nair and she can't attack from the air easily (above and below her are huge weakspots due to how slow and predictable dair/uair are and her not-so-hot air mobility), her heavy-ish weight is a weakness.

Sheik really isn't that overpowered, it's a lesser version of the MK conundrum. You can't nerf her key moves without breaking them and making her playstyle fail, but you can't really do much else since all of her moves are useful. She just has far more options to work with than the average character, just because of the way she's built.

 

[JCaesar]

Zelda's actually not that easy to combo. Vertical combos at least don't work well on her because of her floatiness, and you'd be surprised how many things her weak dair beats out.

 

[CountKaiser]

I can verify JC's statements. Zelda's actually very awkward to combo because she usually flies out of reach from whatever I'm using.

 

[GameSystem]

She's also pretty juggle resistant because she can use teleport from the air to go down to the stage. It has pretty low lag at the end so unless you up b on top of the guy, you aren't going to get punished.

 

[Andarel]

Hm, maybe I'm wrong then. I'll test more later, always seemed like she wasn't that hard to combo when I used her.

On the other hand, I play against Falcon and Squirtle too much, so that should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I don't think Sheik by herself is OP, I just think that she is a bit OP when used in conjunction with Zelda, but at the same time, I feel that she overshadows Zelda a bit.

And it wouldn't be that hard to nerf sheik without ruining her playstyle, really. Just remove the Uair speedup and keep the fair speedup gone, and then nerf her outright kill moves so that she basically MUST kill by gimping unless she wants to get the enemy to ridiculous percents.

Depending on how bad she is like that, you can buff her a bit afterwards if the changes were overdone.

And I actually do have a lot of experience playing against Sheik (one of my friends mains her in both Melee and Brawl+, he is like 3rd best at Melee in the state and Smash skill carries over into Brawl+ very well), and I have watched a fair bit of Zelda matches/ played a lot of Wifi Zelda's(I know wifi makes it worse, but it doesn't make it impossible to learn characters).

 

[Andarel]

She kills with fsmash, uair, fair, and usmash right now, all of which are situational (well, except fair, which is better as a gimping move than a killing move). Making a character great at gimping but trash at killing is an awkward spot, because that makes them nearly pointless for casual play (think about it, when would people actually start gimping reliably) and would be seen very negatively.

The thing is, there's no established rule for how strong a dual character like Zelda/Sheik can get. I can't think of any fighting game we can use to find precedents, least of all Melee/Brawl. Is it worth making Zelda and Sheik subpar characters and force them to be played together, or should we make it theoretically possible to main just one (like in Melee)? Even more importantly, while Zelda is overshadowed by Sheik they both have their purposes right now, and I can think of several characters I'd rather go Zelda against - to be quite honest, I don't think the problem is as bad as you're saying it is.

 

[Mattnumbers]

This game is being made with competition in mind, and having a character require some skill to use effectively isn't a bad thing.

Also, I'm much more worried about matchup resistance than Sheik overshadowing Zelda, because Sheik isn't THAT much better than her, she just generally has more options and less skewed matchups.

I don't see why people find it so hard to nerf characters that are really good, there are plenty of things you can do, even to MK.

I just think it would be better if Sheik and Zelda were especially balanced compared to each other because their non-forced transform ability is unique (PT has forced transform)

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Zelda has a predictable/punishable recovery, gets ***** by camping, and is just too slow to keep up with some characters. She's a solid character but she ain't top 10 material. There are too many other really good characters with less exploitable weaknesses.

She's amazing in teams though.

this is an interesting statement b/c all my friends who are good at the game none of them play campy spam characters besides oli. i imagine when you say she gets ***** by camping you mean falco, rob, oli type people. well in normal brawl when i went to tournaments besides oli non of these characters really gave me that much trouble as zelda and i doubt it as changed in brawl+ but i can't say for sure.

You are right her recovery is predictable and can very easily get punishes can't argue that.

but with her being to slow to keep up with fast characters i disagree the only people i had trouble keeping up with in normal brawl are some sonics and i think it was more the player then the character. but once all of my sonic experience is in normal brawl so i might be missing something that changed in brawl+.

the characters i have experience against in brawl+ are ic, oli, marth, g&w, dk, kirby, jiggs, lucas, link, mk, (sorta fox), yoshi, captin falcon, ganon, ness, so i am kinda lacking fast spammers like falco. also someone who can spam like rob. still i found zelda can keep up and beat all of these characters if played right i only have trouble with oli.

(also i want to say the people i play against are all very good tourny lvl players so its not like i am playing people that suck and i can say i am good b/c i can beat them they are all very competitive players who have done well in normal brawl tournaments and one came in 2nd in a melee tournament only losing to m2k). so the people i play are legit and my zelda can hold her own so it seems to me zelda is also very legit.

 

[Bandit]

This game is being made with competition in mind, and having a character require some skill to use effectively isn't a bad thing.

Also, I'm much more worried about matchup resistance than Sheik overshadowing Zelda, because Sheik isn't THAT much better than her, she just generally has more options and less skewed matchups.

I don't see why people find it so hard to nerf characters that are really good, there are plenty of things you can do, even to MK.

I just think it would be better if Sheik and Zelda were especially balanced compared to each other because their non-forced transform ability is unique (PT has forced transform)

Sheik+Zelda is only needed with Sheik goes beyond her kill combo percentages. Then, she needs Zelda to kill the opponent outright with one move and switch back.

Zelda is not top 10. She is not broken. She is pretty much a benchmark for mid-tier characters.

Sheik is top 10. She combos really well, and she can kill and gimp.

If you are entertaining playing Sheik+Zelda, practice nothing but Sheik in singles and practice nothing but Zelda in teams. By the time you actually need Zelda, you'll know where the C-Stick is.

Lastly, G&W still counters both. Marth is a problem for Zelda. ROB gimps the living hell out of Sheik (seriously this works too well... Fair, fair fair fair UpB away and watch Sheik die... not saying he's a counter, just saying he gimps like crazy).

the characters i have experience against in brawl+ are ic, oli, marth, g&w, dk, kirby, jiggs, lucas, link, mk, (sorta fox), yoshi, captin falcon, ganon, ness, so i am kinda lacking fast spammers like falco. also someone who can spam like rob. still i found zelda can keep up and beat all of these characters if played right i only have trouble with oli.

My Opinions:

IC - Zelda wins, not close
Oli - Oli wins, not close
Marth - Marth wins, not close
G&W - G&W wins, not close
DK - Even
Kirby - Opinion here, Kirby but close
Jiggs - Zelda wins
Lucas - Even
Link - Zelda wins but close
MK - MK wins, not close
Fox - Fox wins
Yoshi - Zelda wins
Falcon - Zelda wins and it is not close at all. He has no priority and she literally could stand still and stop every attack he has. Only a falcon player can out strategize you
Ganon - Zelda wins
Ness - Zelda wins
Falco - Falco, slightly
ROB - Campy ROB wins, Aggressive ROB loses

:bandit:

 

[JCaesar]

By the time you actually need Zelda, you'll know where the C-Stick is.

ahahahahahaha!

 

[Mattnumbers]

Sheik+Zelda is only needed with Sheik goes beyond her kill combo percentages. Then, she needs Zelda to kill the opponent outright with one move and switch back.

Zelda is not top 10. She is not broken. She is pretty much a benchmark for mid-tier characters.

Sheik is top 10. She combos really well, and she can kill and gimp.

If you are entertaining playing Sheik+Zelda, practice nothing but Sheik in singles and practice nothing but Zelda in teams. By the time you actually need Zelda, you'll know where the C-Stick is.

Lastly, G&W still counters both. Marth is a problem for Zelda. ROB gimps the living hell out of Sheik (seriously this works too well... Fair, fair fair fair UpB away and watch Sheik die... not saying he's a counter, just saying he gimps like crazy).

So basically........Sheik overshadows Zelda completely in your opinion, except for in teams, and you agree with me that Sheik is in the top ten whereas Zelda is not?

And Sheik+Zelda have one bad matchup so far.

I don't really see what your getting at that doesn't go in favor with the stuff I said.

 

[Bandit]

So basically........Sheik overshadows Zelda completely in your opinion, except for in teams, and you agree with me that Sheik is in the top ten whereas Zelda is not?

And Sheik+Zelda have one bad matchup so far.

I don't really see what your getting at that doesn't go in favor with the stuff I said.

I'm saying this: nerfing Sheik to not overshadow Zelda is the dumbest suggestion I've heard in awhile. They are 2 different characters. Deal with it.

I'll break down your message since I am feeling extra frisky:

1st Sentence: What you said was not a revelation but well known information. Have you ever played Melee? This same thing exists there too.

2nd Sentence: I don't know all the match-ups because the game is still young, but I'm simply saying that there exists 2 to 3 characters to counter them that I know of. I should not have to re-explain myself to you.

3rd Sentence: Learn to interpret my very straight forward messages because I won't be explaining them to you again.

:bandit:

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Sheik+Zelda is only needed with Sheik goes beyond her kill combo percentages. Then, she needs Zelda to kill the opponent outright with one move and switch back.

Zelda is not top 10. She is not broken. She is pretty much a benchmark for mid-tier characters.

Sheik is top 10. She combos really well, and she can kill and gimp.

If you are entertaining playing Sheik+Zelda, practice nothing but Sheik in singles and practice nothing but Zelda in teams. By the time you actually need Zelda, you'll know where the C-Stick is.

Lastly, G&W still counters both. Marth is a problem for Zelda. ROB gimps the living hell out of Sheik (seriously this works too well... Fair, fair fair fair UpB away and watch Sheik die... not saying he's a counter, just saying he gimps like crazy).



My Opinions:

IC - Zelda wins, not close
Oli - Oli wins, not close
Marth - Marth wins, not close
G&W - G&W wins, not close
DK - Even
Kirby - Opinion here, Kirby but close
Jiggs - Zelda wins
Lucas - Even
Link - Zelda wins but close
MK - MK wins, not close
Fox - Fox wins
Yoshi - Zelda wins
Falcon - Zelda wins and it is not close at all. He has no priority and she literally could stand still and stop every attack he has. Only a falcon player can out strategize you
Ganon - Zelda wins
Ness - Zelda wins
Falco - Falco, slightly
ROB - Campy ROB wins, Aggressive ROB loses

:bandit:

i agree with most of the match-ups but i have some things i want to say

1: marth he wins true but a smart zelda can win this i don't know what not close is to you but i think its a 70/30 marth which is bad but winnable.

2:g&w here i disagree but it might just be b/c of how much i have played against g&w i know how to move and were to move when fighting him plus without bucket braking he dies early on. you can get past his turtle and his d-throw is easy to tech. the worst thing is that he stops you from using dins but i am use to that so no big deal when i fight him. i guess i am saying zelda can win this its not one sided if you have experience.

3: kirby i think he wins as well.

4: mk with zelda's range and priority it is kinda close mk has the advantage due to gimping but zelda can put up a real fight. i would not say mk not close but mk does win this.

5: fox i have not played any fox mains only people who 2nd or 3rd him but i have no trouble here he does not seem like that much of a problem to me but it might be lack of fighting really good foxs.

6: falco i would think its even.

7: in normal brawl at tourneys i had no trouble with rob so i would figure brawl+ it would be the same but i have only played a so-so rob in brawl+ so i could be wrong but i don't feel at a disadvantage fighting him

the rest i agree completely with except dk who might have the advantage since he is so hard to kill. i feel like there is no match in besides oli were i feel that zelda has almost no chance winning even marth and mk i feel zelda has a real chance.

what i want to know is what you think about the characters i did not name and have no experience with.

 

[Plum]

Zelda shuts G&W down unless he plays defensively and forces her to approach.
Zelda has practically zero approach options against G&W's defense game without completely outsmarting the G&W player.

If G&W gets too aggressive then Zelda can keep shutting him down, but that's no surprise... Zelda shuts down any overly offensive playstyle.

The only chance she has to force G&W to approach is Dins but that is a lost cause if you are trying to force an approach with Dins... Especially against G&W.
As long as G&W plays the matchup right (no guns a'blazing running into the fray/smashes) then he can easily shut down everything Zelda has.

 

[Andarel]

Falco or Falcon, NAGACE? Falco ***** Zelda hard, that is pretty much not disputable. Zelda's priority shuts down Falcon, and while he can take advantage of her aerial blindspot she has more range than he does and he's a fastfaller. Usmash and the kicks, plus his so-so recovery and terrible priority...Falcon really doesn't have the right answers other than serious mindgames. It's not close.

70-30 isn't close. I think that's fair vs. Marth.

DK is the easiest character in the game to dair spike, just so ya know. Also, his survivability is counteracted by his being a huge target for someone with as powerful moves as Zelda. He can take advantage of her weaknesses quite well, but it's pretty even. Whoever gets flow going will probably win.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Bandit, Sheik and Zelda can turn into each other in the middle of a match whether you want them to or not, and when balancing them it must be taken into consideration as we are looking at balance when a character is played to the top of their metagame. At the top of the Sheik/Zelda Metagame the person WILL switch to whichever has a better matchup against the opponent.

And I was confused at your post because you took on what seemed to be a contradictory stance on my post, yet you then pretty much backed up all the things I said.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

first to plum: there is no reason for zelda to be aggressive while fighting a g&w in the first place and if you as a zelda want to be aggressive you should not be zelda she is a defense character. zelda can fake being aggressive and bait others to attack a smart zelda can take down a g&w.

andarel i have not played many falcos in brawl+ but in normal brawl when i played against a falco even if i lost they were close matches which usually came down to one hit. so i feel with Zelda's buffs in brawl+ falco should be a pretty even match-up. and if i missed the big meeting were everyone agreed zelda loses to falco easy peasy then thats to bad b/c i feel its wrong. falco can be annoying but never did i feel at a huge disadvantage fighting him.
Now dk you might be right that he is easy to spike and he is a big target but still i find him tough but it might be the quality dk's i face. one guy who i go to school with and play i've been told bum asked him to join his crew but i heard this from a friend so it might not be accurate but he is very good ether way.

lastly i give it 70-30 marth b/c so many other zelda's i know complain about him but i feel he is easier to beat in brawl+ and should not be feared by zelda users (and besides if you really have that much trouble just switch to sheik).

 

[Bandit]

Matt: I took a contradictory approach to your ideas. And no, when developing Sheik and Zelda you shouldn't think about what happens if they switch. Just because Pokemon Trainer can switch doesn't mean they nerfed all 3 characters so they were even. They treated each character as a separate character. Seriously, this is a stupid argument, and I won't acknowledge it anymore.

GW can force Zelda to approach. He can bucket dins, so Zelda's projectile is out, and his SH Bair is only beaten by a well spaced up-angled f-tilt. He's 70-30.

As for Marth, I never said it isn't winnable. If it was, it would be 100-0. Mind games, spacing, baiting, etc all factor into individual players performances, but when you talk about match-up ratios you assume both characters are played by super computers who do the most logical thing. 70-30, as you pointed out, means Zelda still won 30% of the time. In fact, I won a few matches against a Marth last night, but I know if I face the top Marths that it will be much harder to get in on them.

Falco is someone I have a good bit of experience, and it is a match-up where you have to be patient. Zelda has to stay inside a slim window where she's too close to Falco for him to rely on lasers while not compromising her options. His fewer kill options make this evenish, but I still give it to him because his hardcore camping will make it incredibly difficult to win. All my matches vs falco usually run close to the end of the timer.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Matt: I took a contradictory approach to your ideas. And no, when developing Sheik and Zelda you shouldn't think about what happens if they switch. Just because Pokemon Trainer can switch doesn't mean they nerfed all 3 characters so they were even. They treated each character as a separate character. Seriously, this is a stupid argument, and I won't acknowledge it anymore.

Nope, PT HAS to switch every time he dies, therefor the matchup resistance is there but not as much of a problem since you have to manage to switch twice every time you die if you want to stay the same pokemon.

And yes, you do have to think of that, It doesn't matter if some casuals/low level players would be worse off because they don't use transform, because a smart player will switch if he is equally skilled with both Zelda and Sheik and one has a better matchup with the character he is facing.

You can not acknowledge me all you want, that just means your in denial.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Matt: I took a contradictory approach to your ideas. And no, when developing Sheik and Zelda you shouldn't think about what happens if they switch. Just because Pokemon Trainer can switch doesn't mean they nerfed all 3 characters so they were even. They treated each character as a separate character. Seriously, this is a stupid argument, and I won't acknowledge it anymore.

GW can force Zelda to approach. He can bucket dins, so Zelda's projectile is out, and his SH Bair is only beaten by a well spaced up-angled f-tilt. He's 70-30.

As for Marth, I never said it isn't winnable. If it was, it would be 100-0. Mind games, spacing, baiting, etc all factor into individual players performances, but when you talk about match-up ratios you assume both characters are played by super computers who do the most logical thing. 70-30, as you pointed out, means Zelda still won 30% of the time. In fact, I won a few matches against a Marth last night, but I know if I face the top Marths that it will be much harder to get in on them.

Falco is someone I have a good bit of experience, and it is a match-up where you have to be patient. Zelda has to stay inside a slim window where she's too close to Falco for him to rely on lasers while not compromising her options. His fewer kill options make this evenish, but I still give it to him because his hardcore camping will make it incredibly difficult to win. All my matches vs falco usually run close to the end of the timer.

you have good points here i would just like to say that i can get past g%w bair with well time rolls to his back but i feel this is b/c i am so use to his movements i know were to move and when against to the point were it became muscle memory his short hop bairs can be annoying but they are not as unstoppable as people seem to think. I will say no matter how use you are to them they will hit you more then you would like but once you get past that he can be taken down plus no bucket brake and the changes in brawl+ give zelda a real good chance. i can't see this being worst then 65/35 and i think its closer then that.

about marth of course you would do worst against the best marths unless you are there equal in skill (sorry idk how good you are compared to the best marths) but my freind who is about even with me i beat his marth and he seems to think that marth does not have much if any advantage in brawl+. but that is just my opinion and its fine if most zeldas find it a tough match that just means i am lucky to not find him to not be that tough to beat some match-ups can depend more on the person then the character.

i liked what you said about falco i figured the matches would be long ones like you said but sadly for me i am lacking in falcos to play so i don't really know first hand that fight that well.

 

[CloneHat]

Is Samus any good against Zelda? 'Cause basically all my other characters are destroyed by her.

 

[Bandit]

Is Samus any good against Zelda? 'Cause basically all my other characters are destroyed by her.

Pick a character from this list who I said Zelda loses to:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8352822&postcount=295

So, how 'bout them combos?

:bandit:

 

[matt4300]

No wonder i get completely ****ed by Zelda every time I fight her... I Main/play Link, Bowser, Ness, Samus and started playing mario quite a bit. I can't do anything with any of them but link and I still lose to my friends zelda most of the time >_>
and that chick in your sig is hot as hell @_@

 

[Bandit]

Gina Carano, 7-1 MMA career. Youtube has all her fights.

 

[Bandit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1CBFTsSVwU

Bandit (Lightning) vs TUSM (Samus)

This was from crews at a tournament last week with the new code set.

 

[Mattnumbers]

So you aren't red any more?

 

[Bandit]

No need to designate color when I am the only Bandit.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

So I finally have A Brawl+ video saved... Now I just need to find someone to record it for me.

 

[Bandit]

Excellent, when you do, post it in here.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i was just playing the newest version of Brawl+ and i could barley do any combos with zelda, and the ones i did pull off are way to situational. Am i missing something not even her up-smash at 0 dmg was comboing i hope i am just missing something obvious or she will not be good in brawl+, and i really wanted her to be very good so i could main her like i use to in vbrawl. So if in there are combos i am missing that don't have to do with din's to start it please tell me

 

[RyokoYaksa]

After playing with Random for a while, I've realized that the reasons for altering the angle on Zelda's Usmash (not my idea) turned out to be a bunch of crock because she wasn't even broken with it leading into nigh guaranteed follow ups at low percents. Many characters have ways to build lots of damage on a fresh stock quickly with easier openers and faster movement.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^ i think you are saying that the up-smash used to combo but they took it out (maybe saying it was broken). i agree with you there was nothing wrong with her old up-smash it only combod at low dmg. the way zelda is now i can't see her being that used she once again becomes a way for sheik to kill instead of a good character by herself. The way zelda was made for earlier brawl+s was fine she was by no means broken and i think they should change her up-smash back to the way it was.

 

[GameSystem]

I would comment but wifi ruins my perception of reality. If you want to combo, just use dtilt. It links into everything.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^ d-tilt did that in vbrawl she needs her up-smash to combo like it did in earlier brawl+ to be a good stand alone character