Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Shield stun was increased in B+ obm
-
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Zelda+: OP In-Process of Overhaul as of 04-05-10
- Thread starter Bandit
- Start date
omegablackmage
Certified Lion Rider
no true, i didn't account for the changes in brawl plus, i figured they didn't change that many of the fsmashes. you still get the idea. How much did they modify shield stun?
edit: so from what i could see, they roughly doubled the shield stun, which in a lot of characters cases makes their fsmash barely safe on shield for grabs. The COMPARISON which i posted before is still the same however, zelda's fsmash will now NEVER be punishable on shield whereas many characters with standing fsmash will be punished oos by up b's, characters with long grabs, etc. Why does zelda get the extra treatment with a decently fast fsmash and no chance to shield punish?
edit: so from what i could see, they roughly doubled the shield stun, which in a lot of characters cases makes their fsmash barely safe on shield for grabs. The COMPARISON which i posted before is still the same however, zelda's fsmash will now NEVER be punishable on shield whereas many characters with standing fsmash will be punished oos by up b's, characters with long grabs, etc. Why does zelda get the extra treatment with a decently fast fsmash and no chance to shield punish?
KOkingpin
Smash Champion
it would have been a lot easier to Name the people are not safe. Shiek, Charizard, Wolf, and maybe Olimar (Depending on the pikman). Wario is one of the safest Fsmashes on Shield.
omegablackmage
Certified Lion Rider
honestly a lot of someone's definition of safe on shield is going to depend on how close you are to them, certainly if you are right next to wario when you fsmash them you are going to be punished. Problem with zelda is it doesn't matter how close you are she will push you too far away, which is the issue im trying to get fixed. However i've realized at this point not enough people think she's anywhere near the top 10, which doesn't warrant a nerf. Since none of us are close enough to play each other realistically, we'll just have to wait and see if anyone starts to abuse zelda's fsmash.
Sounds like a fair deal to a character who herself has a generally limited OoS game.
Who's to say people aren't *already* abusing her Fsmash? You might as well complain about retreating aerials like Marth's. Unlike things like Zelda's Fsmash those attacks are actually mobile.
Who's to say people aren't *already* abusing her Fsmash? You might as well complain about retreating aerials like Marth's. Unlike things like Zelda's Fsmash those attacks are actually mobile.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
When I used to play Bandit's Zelda a lot, he abused the hell out of fsmash. The trick is to either strike first, or space yourself well so you don't have to shield it (which isn't too difficult with ROB since he's got quick, good-range attacks on the ground). It never seemed like a broken move to me.
I think you just have to think about it in the context of the game. This ain't Brawl. A lot of moves in this game (many smashes and aerials, even some tilts and a certain Lord of Darkness's jab) are safe on block. Shielding is rarely the best option in any situation. The person on offense tends to be at an advantage. Spacing and baiting is more important here than in vBrawl because you can't just punish everything OOS.
I think you just have to think about it in the context of the game. This ain't Brawl. A lot of moves in this game (many smashes and aerials, even some tilts and a certain Lord of Darkness's jab) are safe on block. Shielding is rarely the best option in any situation. The person on offense tends to be at an advantage. Spacing and baiting is more important here than in vBrawl because you can't just punish everything OOS.
yami_sora
Smash Journeyman
Well, for R.O.B. or any other character with a good projectile or approach, that might be a feasible option. Though I think OBM is considering characters that can't use this as a viable tactic.
For characters that don't have a very good approach it's extremely difficult to deal with an attack that comes out that fast and with such a large hitbox, especially when coupled with how safe the fsmash is. Even if you predict the fsmash the best thing you can do is stay grounded and shield it and then just get pushed back, and then after that you're right back where you started and Zelda still has the upper hand. You can't even approach from the air because most of your attacks get stuffed.
There are definitely ways to get around her fsmash, if you have a projectile that causes stun. But if you don't, it's going to be a constant uphill battle, and that would be fine, not every match can be 50-50, but Zelda has to do very little work and basically camp you to death. It's as you said, this ain't Brawl, so aren't we trying to move away from that play style? Even if there are other characters that have smashes that are safe on block, I've never seen any other character be able to abuse them as easily as Zelda can.
I'm not saying we should make the game completely homogeneous and force Zelda to be a fast and aggressive combo character, that's not what she's supposed to be, but she shouldn't be able to camp so effortlessly either against a good majority of the cast and get away with it.
For characters that don't have a very good approach it's extremely difficult to deal with an attack that comes out that fast and with such a large hitbox, especially when coupled with how safe the fsmash is. Even if you predict the fsmash the best thing you can do is stay grounded and shield it and then just get pushed back, and then after that you're right back where you started and Zelda still has the upper hand. You can't even approach from the air because most of your attacks get stuffed.
There are definitely ways to get around her fsmash, if you have a projectile that causes stun. But if you don't, it's going to be a constant uphill battle, and that would be fine, not every match can be 50-50, but Zelda has to do very little work and basically camp you to death. It's as you said, this ain't Brawl, so aren't we trying to move away from that play style? Even if there are other characters that have smashes that are safe on block, I've never seen any other character be able to abuse them as easily as Zelda can.
I'm not saying we should make the game completely homogeneous and force Zelda to be a fast and aggressive combo character, that's not what she's supposed to be, but she shouldn't be able to camp so effortlessly either against a good majority of the cast and get away with it.
GameSystem
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2008
- Messages
- 314
Couldn't Zelda cancel out her slow running speed by using her up b for movement? The endlag is reduced on that and it moves pretty fast and far and you have quite a few options on where you choose to land with it.
Bandit
Smash Lord
GameSystem - No. Slow start up, and too slow wind down to actually use UpB for primary movement. It can be used for mindgames but gets punished when you start getting predictable.
Zelda is capable of putting up a complete wall against a lot of the cast. Here's how they balanced her: she has no approach moves.
This is why I am not seeing why Fsmash is a problem. It's not an offensive move; it's a defensive move. Even though it is safe on shield, she doesn't have a follow up to it and both characters are back where they started. Why are you complaining about a move that does no harm to you when you shield it? So you can't punish her, but she can't punish you.
This should be a non-issue.
Zelda is capable of putting up a complete wall against a lot of the cast. Here's how they balanced her: she has no approach moves.
This is why I am not seeing why Fsmash is a problem. It's not an offensive move; it's a defensive move. Even though it is safe on shield, she doesn't have a follow up to it and both characters are back where they started. Why are you complaining about a move that does no harm to you when you shield it? So you can't punish her, but she can't punish you.
This should be a non-issue.
yami_sora
Smash Journeyman
Because you're back where you started, you still get no where. Once she pushes you back, you still can't approach, and if you try to, you get fsmashed again. This is why it's a problem.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
But the fact is, Zelda doesn't NEED to approach. She has a projectile. Sure it's easy to dodge, but why approach when she can just spam dins at you until your close enough that you can punish her, At which point you can either try to approach her when her strength is stopping approaches, or run away again where you can get Dins shot at you once again. The only characters that are a problem are ones that can interrupt her Dins with a projectile, and those are not nearly enough to justify what she can to to the other 90% of the cast.
yami_sora
Smash Journeyman
This is not what Brawl+ is supposed to be about. That's incredibly boring and unfun for both players.
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
okay, so we have a defensive character taken out of a defensive game and placed into an aggresive game and you guys are complaining? maybe, just maybe, you guys are supposed to approach the matchup in a smarter, slower paced manner. stop trying to plow through her. she's not that kinda girl. not on the first date at least. you have to gain her affection before you can get into her pants.
Alphatron
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2008
- Messages
- 2,269
I would totally sig this post.
I'm actually wondering why people are complaining about Zelda when Snake exists in this game as well and he has better defensive options than she does. Any character who doesn't have all aerials with TP can attack through Din's too. Considering that she can't camp anyone all match and that I haven't seen a single example of any character being shut down in approaching by usmash/fsmash, I wonder what's there to really complain about.
GameSystem
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2008
- Messages
- 314
Watch any of NinjaLink's zelda videos. Especially the vbrawl ones. In vbrawl, up b had way more lag than it does now and he uses it for movement. If you ledge cancel up, you get NO end lag and can do anything out of it. You'll see him doing plenty of Up B off stage to dair or edge hog.
Next set in however many months she is getting TP and one extra hit frame on din's. You won't be able to clash with it anymore.
Bandit
Smash Lord
Not only have I seen his videos, I have played his Zelda. His UpB use is flashy and nothing more. It's all mindgames.
*P*L*U*R* - just an awesome post
Malk
Smash Champion
Are people honestly still trying to figure out combos and things or is Brawl+ dead? Serious questions here. I like this character a lot and she is finally good.
Alphatron
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2008
- Messages
- 2,269
Not dead. Zelda just isn't a combo heavy character so there's not much to say. She does have some silly situational stuff like Din's fire to Lightning kick.
I'd rather we talked about matchups for her. Like how she fairs against friggin Lucas...
I'd rather we talked about matchups for her. Like how she fairs against friggin Lucas...
Malk
Smash Champion
I have had a lot of fun with the neutral air as a combo starter, which hasn't seen much discussion. It's not at all a high priority normal (since all of the hitbox of the move is also vulnerable), so the goal isn't to jump at a shield with a fast falled nair, but a nair out of shield or a falling nair to punish a whiffed smash goes right into upsmash, and y'all know what an upsmash can do. I am used to always going into upsmash since the people I play most often (NCbill and karn) play ganondorf and captain falcon, and upsmash chains are lol on them, but I am sure the nair could go into an uptilt for real combos on most if not all characters, especially at low percents. Nair in the air can also chain right into itself if you set yourself to fall in the same direction / speed as them. I got Nair to lightning kick only once but it seemed like a legit combo - I think you have to be fast falling so that you can jump for the lightning kick to sweetspot.
Another move I've been wondering about is the teleport. After an upsmash that leaves them too high for another upsmash or aerial followup, I feel like you could upB into them to end the combo. If you get accurate enough, I think the upsmash leaves them in hit stun long enough for it to work, and free damage is always free damage. Has anyone else messed around with this idea?
Another move I've been wondering about is the teleport. After an upsmash that leaves them too high for another upsmash or aerial followup, I feel like you could upB into them to end the combo. If you get accurate enough, I think the upsmash leaves them in hit stun long enough for it to work, and free damage is always free damage. Has anyone else messed around with this idea?
Bandit
Smash Lord
No one talks about Zelda+ because it is basically me, Ryoko, and Alphatron.
Nair to Utilt at low percents is fairly useless by design because Utilt has no follow ups, and Usmash is a faster move with follow-ups. I can't remember when I have done nair to Usmash, but I wouldn't say it is impossible. Nair's hit boxes are slow and have little range, so it's not ideal for approaching.
Dtilt is the comboing move that comboed in vBrawl. High percents it pops up a character into Usmash or Utilt. I recommend Utilt since it kills before Usmash and this is the only viable use for Utilt since Usmash is always a better option. At low percents, hit the opponent with dtilt again or dsmash. Mid-percents could have a window to grab them which you should then Uthrow to Uair.
Uthrow to Uair mid to high percents. The opponent shouldn't be in kill percents yet.
Usmash chains at low percents but a more effective combo is Usmash to Uair to Usmash to Uair. Uair has tiny BKB and stalls them just enough to get hit by another Usmash.
Usmash to LK works on some characters. Floaty characters generally can only be Uair at most from the first Usmash.
Dins to Uair/LK/Dair when opponent is off the ledge is deadly or dins to Uair while on the stage.
Ftilt to Usmash at very low percents still works.
Dash Attack can pop people up. This can lead to Usmash or Uair depending on percents.
Getting back to the nair point, there is a combo that isn't yet tourney viable but if the situation arises works. FF Autocancel Nair so it only hits them once; this should bring them through you with a lot of stun, and SH LK. In vBrawl, this was guaranteed at 999% but the chance of actually hitting them like that without being punished is slim to none. I'm not even sure if the physics changes will allow for this combo to still work, but if you wanted to incorporate nair, it's something to practice. Zelda boards used to have a video of it, but I don't know where it is at the moment.
I hope that helped. Feel free to question, comment, and I'll get back to you.
Alphatron: Lucas wins that battle and has since vBrawl. He kills before she does; takes away her dins pressure game; off ledge pressure by Lucas can be troublesome. It's in his favor.
I would talk about match-ups, but I don't want to do that until the set reaches some sort of finality. I'll gladly talk about anyone you want to whatever extent I can, but it could be an outdated discussion with the next release. I'd suggest going to the Zelda boards and checking out the match-up discussions there to get a good idea. There are changes but the matchups seem to be fairly similar when worked out.
Zelda+ discussion? Whaaaaaaa?
:bandit:
Nair to Utilt at low percents is fairly useless by design because Utilt has no follow ups, and Usmash is a faster move with follow-ups. I can't remember when I have done nair to Usmash, but I wouldn't say it is impossible. Nair's hit boxes are slow and have little range, so it's not ideal for approaching.
Dtilt is the comboing move that comboed in vBrawl. High percents it pops up a character into Usmash or Utilt. I recommend Utilt since it kills before Usmash and this is the only viable use for Utilt since Usmash is always a better option. At low percents, hit the opponent with dtilt again or dsmash. Mid-percents could have a window to grab them which you should then Uthrow to Uair.
Uthrow to Uair mid to high percents. The opponent shouldn't be in kill percents yet.
Usmash chains at low percents but a more effective combo is Usmash to Uair to Usmash to Uair. Uair has tiny BKB and stalls them just enough to get hit by another Usmash.
Usmash to LK works on some characters. Floaty characters generally can only be Uair at most from the first Usmash.
Dins to Uair/LK/Dair when opponent is off the ledge is deadly or dins to Uair while on the stage.
Ftilt to Usmash at very low percents still works.
Dash Attack can pop people up. This can lead to Usmash or Uair depending on percents.
Getting back to the nair point, there is a combo that isn't yet tourney viable but if the situation arises works. FF Autocancel Nair so it only hits them once; this should bring them through you with a lot of stun, and SH LK. In vBrawl, this was guaranteed at 999% but the chance of actually hitting them like that without being punished is slim to none. I'm not even sure if the physics changes will allow for this combo to still work, but if you wanted to incorporate nair, it's something to practice. Zelda boards used to have a video of it, but I don't know where it is at the moment.
I hope that helped. Feel free to question, comment, and I'll get back to you.
Alphatron: Lucas wins that battle and has since vBrawl. He kills before she does; takes away her dins pressure game; off ledge pressure by Lucas can be troublesome. It's in his favor.
I would talk about match-ups, but I don't want to do that until the set reaches some sort of finality. I'll gladly talk about anyone you want to whatever extent I can, but it could be an outdated discussion with the next release. I'd suggest going to the Zelda boards and checking out the match-up discussions there to get a good idea. There are changes but the matchups seem to be fairly similar when worked out.
Zelda+ discussion? Whaaaaaaa?
:bandit:
Malk
Smash Champion
I think you're approaching the Lucas fight the wrong way, if you're having that much trouble with it. Upsmash on the ground beats any of his aerials, spaced correctly, except the horribly unsafe fast fall downair. Since Zelda isn't going to be approaching in the air either, this makes much of the fighting a spacing based poke game.
Don't be afraid to use Din's because of the absorb either. Using it as a ground poke to bait smashes or spot dodges is cash. Your reflector beats his projectiles on reaction at this range as well, so try to keep there (right outside his upsmash/fsmash range). If he dashes in, you have fsmash, if he jumps at you just upsmash.
In the lucas experience I have they haven't gone for the throw that much but it seems like it would be horribly obvious. If you read it at all you get dtilt to nair to upsmash at LEAST, or whatever grab combo you want.
I don't see why you think he kills so early? There don't seem to be any good set ups for his smash. The only place I can see a problem would be immediately next to each other on the ground, but you have the tools to keep him from right there.
Don't be afraid to use Din's because of the absorb either. Using it as a ground poke to bait smashes or spot dodges is cash. Your reflector beats his projectiles on reaction at this range as well, so try to keep there (right outside his upsmash/fsmash range). If he dashes in, you have fsmash, if he jumps at you just upsmash.
In the lucas experience I have they haven't gone for the throw that much but it seems like it would be horribly obvious. If you read it at all you get dtilt to nair to upsmash at LEAST, or whatever grab combo you want.
I don't see why you think he kills so early? There don't seem to be any good set ups for his smash. The only place I can see a problem would be immediately next to each other on the ground, but you have the tools to keep him from right there.
Bandit
Smash Lord
Lucas gains 1.5x the dins, so yes I will be mindful of my fireballs since he could gain back 34% of a full charged dins.
He is campy with pk fire and our reflector has laggy windown which leaves us open for punishment.
His nair is very quick and a good approach move. He is maneuvarable enough to bait the Usmash and punish you for it.
He has a Zair which can be used for pressure, and his Uthrow kills now. The Zair extends his range beyond fsmash.
His fsmash, dsmash, and usmash are incredibly powerful (fsmash is very quick). Any bad recovery (especially if he forces Zelda to recover high) will be punished.
Edit: His recovery is "ungimpable"
I'm not saying it's a hard counter, but he has the advantage in this game. He's faster and just as powerful while taking away parts of her game. He doesn't take to the air that often and he can camp her without bothering to approach.
He is campy with pk fire and our reflector has laggy windown which leaves us open for punishment.
His nair is very quick and a good approach move. He is maneuvarable enough to bait the Usmash and punish you for it.
He has a Zair which can be used for pressure, and his Uthrow kills now. The Zair extends his range beyond fsmash.
His fsmash, dsmash, and usmash are incredibly powerful (fsmash is very quick). Any bad recovery (especially if he forces Zelda to recover high) will be punished.
Edit: His recovery is "ungimpable"
I'm not saying it's a hard counter, but he has the advantage in this game. He's faster and just as powerful while taking away parts of her game. He doesn't take to the air that often and he can camp her without bothering to approach.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Zair
If Zelda is forced to recover low, Lucas edgehogs, then gets a free usmash on her up-B lag.
That was in vBrawl, just fyi. So was his zapjump. His recovery is nigh ungimpable.
Bandit
Smash Lord
I'll be honest, I don't play 5.0 (awful set). I play GSH1.
Lucas still recovers like a beast and you really can't do too much about it except read where he is going and try to punish the lag of it.
Lucas still recovers like a beast and you really can't do too much about it except read where he is going and try to punish the lag of it.
If WBR stop setting timelines then 5.0 wouldnt of been so bad >_>
Bandit
Smash Lord
I don't really follow the backroom, but without deadlines, the project would probably never reach a finalized state.
Either way, GSH1 has been a far better set (and Zelda wasn't touched so no biasness).
Either way, GSH1 has been a far better set (and Zelda wasn't touched so no biasness).
With deadlines, things become rushed as the dead line approaches and things fall through the cracks.
So really, both cons and pros, but I think the cons of no deadline are outweighed by the pros
Bandit
Smash Lord
Here's my final say on that topic:
If you wait too long, someone else will make something better. Enter: GSH1.
Now back to Zelda+...
:bandit:
If you wait too long, someone else will make something better. Enter: GSH1.
Now back to Zelda+...
:bandit:
Malk
Smash Champion
Much more important question:
How can Zelda possibly deal with Olimar (she can't)
and should we change either character to deal with this or should we leave it and say even brawl+ will have **** matchups
How can Zelda possibly deal with Olimar (she can't)
and should we change either character to deal with this or should we leave it and say even brawl+ will have **** matchups
Bandit
Smash Lord
Much more important answer:
Why do you bother to play Zelda vs Olimar when Sheik is so much better at the match-up. In vBrawl it was Nair to Jab repeat till Olimar death.
BTW, played Skyworld+... great Zelda+ stage.
Edit:
On Olimar:
He's a defensive character who has better defense and camping abilities and grab game then Zelda. Brawl+ was made to make moves act the way they should while raising the floor and lowering the ceiling on playability. All the characters are playable now and bad match-ups exist.
If you don't want "****" match-ups, then balanced brawl is for you.
Why do you bother to play Zelda vs Olimar when Sheik is so much better at the match-up. In vBrawl it was Nair to Jab repeat till Olimar death.
BTW, played Skyworld+... great Zelda+ stage.
Edit:
On Olimar:
He's a defensive character who has better defense and camping abilities and grab game then Zelda. Brawl+ was made to make moves act the way they should while raising the floor and lowering the ceiling on playability. All the characters are playable now and bad match-ups exist.
If you don't want "****" match-ups, then balanced brawl is for you.
Malk
Smash Champion
Trolling you wouldn't even be fun
Bandit
Smash Lord
Awesome! I would download both RC5.0 and GSH1 Beta Build, and save them both separately. They are both different (I prefer GSH1), so if you want to play someone online, you would have to have the same version.
Zelda is not too different from RC5.0 and GSH1 from my playing. She's a huge improvement from what you are used to in vBrawl. If you have any questions about her, just feel free to ask.
Zelda is not too different from RC5.0 and GSH1 from my playing. She's a huge improvement from what you are used to in vBrawl. If you have any questions about her, just feel free to ask.
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 3,299
make sure your sd card isn't an SDHC, make sure they are in the right folder, make sure the file patch code thinger 3.51 is in your RSBE01.gct in your codes folder (it most likely is)
and look at the textures without ISO hacking thread. The order of textures in game doesn't always match up with how they are numbered on the disc.
and look at the textures without ISO hacking thread. The order of textures in game doesn't always match up with how they are numbered on the disc.
zeldspazz
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2008
- Messages
- 3,432
Well Symponic, looking specifically in this guide http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232455 Im stuck at number 3. Im not sure with codes to use, if that makes any sense.
Nvm I got someone to help me, thanks though!
Nvm I got someone to help me, thanks though!