D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
Funny. That's also something I used to do often. Especially roll.
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Wreck-It Bowser
- Thread starter Liquid Gen
- Start date
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
Okay, here's something every Bowser player should ask himself.........
What do you do when you come across an Ice Climbers or King Dedede player in bracket?
We all know that those are Bowser's worst MUs by far. Unlike his other ****ty MUs, Bowser has next to no chance of winning of these, so what do we do? Do we bite the bullet, and try to actually win these deathmatches? Do we switch to a secondary, and reduce the "Bowser purity" of our potential bracket success? I suppose "Bowser purity" is a silly concern in the case of those two MUs, because no one would rag on a dude for switching against a -4 of all things. In fact, we'd be seen as fools if we didn't switch!
Of course, this begs the question: where do we draw the line? Do we start using secondaries for -3s too? How about -2s? -1s? EVERYTHING? How far must a Bowser main go through the "minus sections" of the MU chart to prove his mettle? This is something significant for every low tier main to think about.........
What do you do when you come across an Ice Climbers or King Dedede player in bracket?
We all know that those are Bowser's worst MUs by far. Unlike his other ****ty MUs, Bowser has next to no chance of winning of these, so what do we do? Do we bite the bullet, and try to actually win these deathmatches? Do we switch to a secondary, and reduce the "Bowser purity" of our potential bracket success? I suppose "Bowser purity" is a silly concern in the case of those two MUs, because no one would rag on a dude for switching against a -4 of all things. In fact, we'd be seen as fools if we didn't switch!
Of course, this begs the question: where do we draw the line? Do we start using secondaries for -3s too? How about -2s? -1s? EVERYTHING? How far must a Bowser main go through the "minus sections" of the MU chart to prove his mettle? This is something significant for every low tier main to think about.........
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Bowser is a Low Tier character, there is pretty much no way a Bowser can go solo and win in high competition, which is why he's Low Tier. Therefore, Bowser players SHOULD have a secondary. Obviously, youd need a secondary for D3/ICs, but the other MUs, you CAN win, and once you feel comfortable in his other hard MUs, you should try and go Bowser in them. For example, if you are really confident in playing Bowser in the Diddy MU cuz you know it, go ahead and go Bowser in it. If you have no idea how to fight Yoshi, dont go Bowser, CP him. No need to take an auto use just for 'Bowser purity' because you dont have the knowledge. Practice up in the harder MUs until you feel you know it well enough to go Bowser, but until then, Id say go with a secondary.
Mr. game and watch
Smash Master
I agree with z'zgashy
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
If you feel your secondary has what it takes, by all means use it. I personally still use Bowser for D3 and sometimes ICs.
D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
Fortunately, Yoshi is my real main. And then there's gaw...
I'd take on 3D with Bowser, I've done it before. Fought a friend who has him as a secondary. Lost to him, but nothing to be ashamed of at 1-0.
I'd take on 3D with Bowser, I've done it before. Fought a friend who has him as a secondary. Lost to him, but nothing to be ashamed of at 1-0.
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
Interesting responses........
Anyway, remember when I said that I wanted to be competent against any foe as Bowser?
Well, I'm uncertain that two particular foes (D3 and ICs) are even worth the effort, which is the reason why I made my previous post. The ICs are basically the "anti-Bowser," and as long as D3 has his infinite legal, his rewards for taking a risk will make our rewards look like horse****.
Fortunately for me, it's been a long time since I've faced any D3s or ICs in a tourney. My luck won't last forever, though, and I'll eventually have to face those two MUs once again.
Z'zgashi's post is very pragmatic, and it essentially draws the line at D3/ICs.
For Zigsta, there seems to be no line, and anyone is fair game for his Bowser. How the hell did you even get wins against D3/ICs?
I have yet to figure out where exactly I draw the line. None of Bowser's currently listed -2s, MK, or Yoshi scare me off, but I'm borderline on Wario (If he's got his chaingrab down, it looks horrible enough.....), and I'm straight up refusing the two -4s, unless I end up mastering them somehow.
Anyway, remember when I said that I wanted to be competent against any foe as Bowser?
Well, I'm uncertain that two particular foes (D3 and ICs) are even worth the effort, which is the reason why I made my previous post. The ICs are basically the "anti-Bowser," and as long as D3 has his infinite legal, his rewards for taking a risk will make our rewards look like horse****.
Fortunately for me, it's been a long time since I've faced any D3s or ICs in a tourney. My luck won't last forever, though, and I'll eventually have to face those two MUs once again.
Z'zgashi's post is very pragmatic, and it essentially draws the line at D3/ICs.
For Zigsta, there seems to be no line, and anyone is fair game for his Bowser. How the hell did you even get wins against D3/ICs?
I have yet to figure out where exactly I draw the line. None of Bowser's currently listed -2s, MK, or Yoshi scare me off, but I'm borderline on Wario (If he's got his chaingrab down, it looks horrible enough.....), and I'm straight up refusing the two -4s, unless I end up mastering them somehow.
D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
Hey Uncle, how do you fight MKs?
Mr. game and watch
Smash Master
I main both Yoshi and Puff.
Excluding MK cause he's banned, Yoshis worst MU's are Lucario and Falco.
The ratio is the same for puff, but it's much more reasonable.
Puff shouldn't be -2 with Falco but whatever, she is on the chart.
So I use puff in those MU's.
Alternatively, bowser is like a -3 on puff cause of killing/that GR>Uair crap.
Then I go Yoshi!
And if worst goes to worst, I have a pocket Falco that'll get wrecked in the long run either way, but he scares the other people cause of his high tierness.
Excluding MK cause he's banned, Yoshis worst MU's are Lucario and Falco.
The ratio is the same for puff, but it's much more reasonable.
Puff shouldn't be -2 with Falco but whatever, she is on the chart.
So I use puff in those MU's.
Alternatively, bowser is like a -3 on puff cause of killing/that GR>Uair crap.
Then I go Yoshi!
And if worst goes to worst, I have a pocket Falco that'll get wrecked in the long run either way, but he scares the other people cause of his high tierness.
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
Don't run/jump into the ****, keep your *** on the ground most of the time, go for trades often, don't try anything fancy offstage, remember you can chaingrab him regardless of air or ground release, and try to save your Fortress as a kill move.
If you're looking for a full writeup, then we should revive the MU thread, lol.
Oh, I've definitely consulted that great post of yours before. My problem isn't choosing a secondary, but determining which bad MUs I should actually use a secondary for, instead of Bowser.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I just play really patient against both characters. I also use Firebreath more than usual and rarely use ftilt.
Specifically against D3 I don't go past the midpoint of the stage unless D3 is offstage. Bowser's pretty good at punishing D3's recovery.
Against ICs I platform camp a lot, and if I get a grab in, I always backthrow and go after Nana.
Also bear in mind that both characters are grab/shield happy against Bowser--they're easier to shieldpoke with dair.
If you have a lead against D3, camp. A smart D3 will throw out side Bs, while an impatient D3 will run at you. If he's running, his only options are dash attack and grab. If he's walking, expect ftilt.
You can expect your opponent to underestimate you and to play more impatient than usual in many cases simply because a D3/ICs' DREAM is to crush a Bowser in tournament. You can pick up how antsy your opponent is within the first 20 seconds tops.
Specifically against D3 I don't go past the midpoint of the stage unless D3 is offstage. Bowser's pretty good at punishing D3's recovery.
Against ICs I platform camp a lot, and if I get a grab in, I always backthrow and go after Nana.
Also bear in mind that both characters are grab/shield happy against Bowser--they're easier to shieldpoke with dair.
If you have a lead against D3, camp. A smart D3 will throw out side Bs, while an impatient D3 will run at you. If he's running, his only options are dash attack and grab. If he's walking, expect ftilt.
You can expect your opponent to underestimate you and to play more impatient than usual in many cases simply because a D3/ICs' DREAM is to crush a Bowser in tournament. You can pick up how antsy your opponent is within the first 20 seconds tops.
Calm_Animal
Smash Cadet
so that how u play those MU? Ugh going to be hard for me since i tend to be the one who is impatient.... I will have to work on that then.
. I will have to work on that then.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
When I play Bowser, especially against characters who can rack up damage really fast (either via moves or CGs), I don't pay attention to my percentage. Don't give a flip if I get combo'd to 80% by some cool combo. I know I'll get back in it. Just remember Bowser's heavy and typically outlasts his opponent and his hits dish out more damage per hit than a lot of the cast.
If you're having trouble being patient, try playing a match just walking. You'll be surprised how much it throws people off. Sometimes the most intimidating thing to do is to do nothing.
If you're having trouble being patient, try playing a match just walking. You'll be surprised how much it throws people off. Sometimes the most intimidating thing to do is to do nothing.
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
All of that advice is excellent, but will it work on the likes of say..............Coney's D3 and Vinnie's ICs?
I highly doubt they'll be antsy or impatient against us.
Zig, if you ever beat a great ICs or D3 with Bowser, you will forever be our hero.
I highly doubt they'll be antsy or impatient against us.
Zig, if you ever beat a great ICs or D3 with Bowser, you will forever be our hero.
Mr. game and watch
Smash Master
Vinnie would beat zig if zig mained TL.
Cause Zigsta sucks.
Cause Zigsta sucks.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Yeah, I'm kinda in agreement with Flayl on that one
I know for a fact that Vinnie as an Ice Climber player transcends any sort of hope Bowser would have in winning.
That spells i-m-p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e.
I know for a fact that Vinnie as an Ice Climber player transcends any sort of hope Bowser would have in winning.
That spells i-m-p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
I should add, I think a secondary is a good idea for characters you personally have a heard time against. For example, as a Yoshi player, I used to go 100% Yoshi for EVERY MU, regardless of how bad it was. Now that Ive had tons of experience playing my character, have my own playstyle, know the ins and outs, etc, Ive began to pick up a secondary for those MUs my playstyle just doesnt work with. While my worst MU is MK, I still go Yoshi against MK cuz I know what to do and my playstyle works, but now I go Pikachu against Falco because my playstyle just DOES NOT WORK against that character, and I have too many problems with him (i literally lose to a Falco every single tournament I go to, its ridiculous).
So basically what I meant earlier wasnt so much 'CP your hard MUs', more take the time to learn the MUs, and if you feel like you cant handle them, pick up a CP.
So basically what I meant earlier wasnt so much 'CP your hard MUs', more take the time to learn the MUs, and if you feel like you cant handle them, pick up a CP.
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
@Flayl/Limit: Yeah, it probably doesn't matter, lol. I just named those dudes because if the D3 and ICs MUs actually aren't lost causes, then notable Bowser players should be able to defeat notable D3/ICs players. Granted, choosing Vinnie and Coney as examples was a bit extreme, but MU charting/discussion is supposed to assume top levels of play, as we all know.
@Z'zgashi: I definitely understand the point you're trying to make, and your advice is plenty good. I'm probably going to choose 2-3 characters (one of them Bowser) to really focus on strongly. The non-Bowser character(s) (my minion(s)!) is/are meant to support Bowser in times of need. DK (my old main) isn't a good choice for that role, and G&W (my doubles main) is okay with Bowser, but he doesn't cover all of the important bad MUs. It's gonna be a challenge for me to choose somebody new to train up, because most of the great secondary candidates for Bowser aren't exactly my cup of tea.
@Z'zgashi: I definitely understand the point you're trying to make, and your advice is plenty good. I'm probably going to choose 2-3 characters (one of them Bowser) to really focus on strongly. The non-Bowser character(s) (my minion(s)!) is/are meant to support Bowser in times of need. DK (my old main) isn't a good choice for that role, and G&W (my doubles main) is okay with Bowser, but he doesn't cover all of the important bad MUs. It's gonna be a challenge for me to choose somebody new to train up, because most of the great secondary candidates for Bowser aren't exactly my cup of tea.
D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
I played friendlies against a friend who is better than me, knows how to use most characters (ICs, in this case) and knows how to do the infinite chaingrab. I did pretty well, surviving until we both had one stock. "Don't get grabbed" really is the only solution to fighting them. There has to be great spacing involved there as well. Use Klaw as an aerial approach, approaching diagonally.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Klaw should never work if the player has decent reaction time and Nana is within a close distance.
She can literally jab/fsmash/whatever and stop Klaw and get you grabbed in the process.
It really is a bad matchup, I never pick Bowser for it.
She can literally jab/fsmash/whatever and stop Klaw and get you grabbed in the process.
It really is a bad matchup, I never pick Bowser for it.
D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
Oh yeah, how could I forget? That's why grabbing one of them is just bad. :/
I'll just go with Yoshi.
I'll just go with Yoshi.
Uncle, what are the matchups you regularly face in tournaments? Unless you plan on going to regionals/nationals every now and then, I think it's okay to not care about some bad matchups if you're not going to face them, or if they're only against players noticeably worse than you - don't bother learning a secondary for diddy, for example, if the only diddy player you face is considerably worse than you.
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
@Flayl: Out of the ones that matter most (High/Top/God Tier): MK, Diddy, Falco, Marth, Wario, Snake, Toon Link, and ZSS are typical foes for me.
Wario's the only MU out of that bunch I'd hesitate going Bowser in these days. As for D3 and ICs, they may not be common in my state, but I'll certainly need an answer to them at out-of-state locals/regionals/nationals. As I've said before in my previous posts, those are the only three MUs I'm considering a secondary for, with Wario being a borderline case.
Also, I agree with your "players worse than me" point. I'd never pick up a secondary for them, because I'm only concerned about winning against mains of those three characters that are on my level or higher.
Wario's the only MU out of that bunch I'd hesitate going Bowser in these days. As for D3 and ICs, they may not be common in my state, but I'll certainly need an answer to them at out-of-state locals/regionals/nationals. As I've said before in my previous posts, those are the only three MUs I'm considering a secondary for, with Wario being a borderline case.
Also, I agree with your "players worse than me" point. I'd never pick up a secondary for them, because I'm only concerned about winning against mains of those three characters that are on my level or higher.
MK, Olimar and Falco seems like good secondaries for you at a local level. If you want to aim for regionals (I'm assuming you don't want to use either Diddy or ICs) Snake or ZSS might fill your needs better than Olimar and Falco.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
well ****, I just remembered how non-friendly the general ruleset is for Bowser.
It's almost to the point where you actually have to have two characters at a nearly equal skill level in order to think of competing.
I've been the victim of "oh you won game 1 with bowser so i'll pick dedede" syndrome countless times.
I know this was the whole point of the conversation...I think I had a brain fart.
#imstupid
I might also end up going to Syracuse University for college..or U. of Rochester..my college situation is pretty strange
It's almost to the point where you actually have to have two characters at a nearly equal skill level in order to think of competing.
I've been the victim of "oh you won game 1 with bowser so i'll pick dedede" syndrome countless times.
I know this was the whole point of the conversation...I think I had a brain fart.
#imstupid
I might also end up going to Syracuse University for college..or U. of Rochester..my college situation is pretty strange
Neon!
Smash Lord
As a DK main I can tell you that I HATE when that happens lol.
D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
Eww, Donkey Kong. x3
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
haha i think dk's pretty dope.
off topic question, what team(s) do you guys use in umvc3/sfxt?
I don't have kof so im not sure about that
I use Captain America/Taskmaster/Dr. Doom, but I can also use Spencer, Dormammu, Wesker and Sentinel (then again, who can't?)
I haven't put in a lot/as much time into sfxt as i do with umvc3 but I used sagat and king the last time
off topic question, what team(s) do you guys use in umvc3/sfxt?
I don't have kof so im not sure about that
I use Captain America/Taskmaster/Dr. Doom, but I can also use Spencer, Dormammu, Wesker and Sentinel (then again, who can't?)
I haven't put in a lot/as much time into sfxt as i do with umvc3 but I used sagat and king the last time
Calm_Animal
Smash Cadet
i play alot of SFxT. I use Xiaoyu/Chun-Li, and Xiaoyu/Hwoarang.
I use Xiaoyu/Chun-Li, and Xiaoyu/Hwoarang.
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
@Flayl: The only three characters out those choices that I'd enjoy playing are MK, Snake, and Olimar. MK's legal situation will render him unavailable at times, so I suppose the other two are my best bets. I'll think about it.....
@Limit: Yeah, the CP system is NEVER kind to characters who just so happen to have clear hard counters (Bowser/DK vs. D3, Fox/Wolf vs. Pikachu, Lucas/Ness vs. Marth, etc.). It also sucks when you get stuck with a bad MU on their best stage. I'm glad Brinstar is gone, because I fondly remember getting locked there as Bowser against MK in the past. Good times, good times.....
I hardly ever get the chance to play Marvel, but my brother (Shady Penguin) made the jump from Brawl to that, and he's getting good fast. He runs Spencer/Frank West/Arthur.
@Limit: Yeah, the CP system is NEVER kind to characters who just so happen to have clear hard counters (Bowser/DK vs. D3, Fox/Wolf vs. Pikachu, Lucas/Ness vs. Marth, etc.). It also sucks when you get stuck with a bad MU on their best stage. I'm glad Brinstar is gone, because I fondly remember getting locked there as Bowser against MK in the past. Good times, good times.....
I hardly ever get the chance to play Marvel, but my brother (Shady Penguin) made the jump from Brawl to that, and he's getting good fast. He runs Spencer/Frank West/Arthur.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I want my Brinstar.
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
Don't get me wrong, though, I liked going on Brinstar against non-specialists of the stage.
In all seriousness, I'm neutral on its legality.
In all seriousness, I'm neutral on its legality.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Uncle wit dat 4 k post count.
I like Brinstar, but thats cuz Yoshi is gay there lol. And I think it should be legal, but if I had to cut out stages that are currently legal, it would be one of the first to go.
I like Brinstar, but thats cuz Yoshi is gay there lol. And I think it should be legal, but if I had to cut out stages that are currently legal, it would be one of the first to go.
D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
By "gay", you mean...
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
By gay I mean he's good there and can be really irritating to fight against.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
D3 and ICs are Bowser's 2 worst MUs?
ZSS seems like a good secondary to cover them.
ZSS seems like a good secondary to cover them.
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
Whoa, I didn't even notice that I reached the 1k mark. I missed my chance to make an epic 1000th post.
Yeah, she really is a good secondary for him, but I'm unsure I'd enjoy learning/playing her.