Wobbling Compromise

[Pengie]

Fox's infinite isn't technicaly banned because it's still possible to do on PS.

 

[Strong Badam]

It isn't an infinite on Pokémon Stadium; it can only last a bit over 30 seconds.

 

[Pengie]

That's usually enough to get them to killing percent tho and it's not like it's hard for Fox to get a kill there anyway.

 

[Strong Badam]

It is not an infinite because it does not last infinitely. <_<

 

[Pengie]

It still leads to an essentially guaranteed kill which is what everyone seems to be complaining about.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Strongbad's right, we're falling into the trap of just grouping infinites and 0-deaths together (which I've talked about before ironically enough).


Regardless, since we already have the stalling rule in place, so saying that we should be treating them similar in terms of ruleset is legitimate. That said, it's rarely a 0-death on PS due to the transformation being too short.



Still, was a stage ever banned just because of the shine infinite.

 

[Strong Badam]

no, it wasn't. stages such as Peach's Castle (idk about the actual stage name), Venom, and Fourside were banned due to the dividing pillars creating opportunities to camp. typically stages with walls have issues other than simply the shine infinite, such as creating camping opportunities and generally objecting gameflow (such as more severe stage hazards like Kongo Jungle's more ridiculous Klaptrap and the barrel).

 

[adumbrodeus]

no, it wasn't. stages such as Peach's Castle (idk about the actual stage name), Venom, and Fourside were banned due to the dividing pillars creating opportunities to camp. typically stages with walls have issues other than simply the shine infinite, such as creating camping opportunities and generally objecting gameflow (such as more severe stage hazards like Kongo Jungle's more ridiculous Klaptrap and the barrel).

Again, rhetorical question, I know the stagelist quite well, and I can think of a number of other relevant reasons (even for the stages I don't think deserve to be banned).




This is more to address the argument about essentially banning the shine infinite. The stages where it was an issue had larger problems.

 

[Roneblaster]

walls dont force you to play any different than wobbling does.

 

[Oracle]

Pro wobbling because the ice climbers suck without it. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but with matchups like marth and puff it's hard as **** to get that grab and once you get it you can't capitalize well without wobbling. All of the flash stuff chu does that made everyone think that the IC's can do flash infinites from anywhere only works on spacies and falcon. The best you have is handoffs, which are decided randomly unless you're at the ledge facing it, which is a position most players have no trouble avoiding most of the time.

 

[Strong Badam]

walls dont force you to play any different than wobbling does.

wobbling doesn't force you to play any differently against IC's because you should still be trying NOT to get grabbed, separate the IC's & KO Nana as soon as possible.
walls indeed force you to play differently because Fox isn't the only threat on a stage with walls. people can camp it to survive longer, use it as a defensive area, etc. I don't know how many times I've seen a player just sit to the left of the tree when Pokémon Stadium's on its fire transformation.

 

[KirbyKaze]

walls dont force you to play any different than wobbling does.

Please stop posting

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

walls dont force you to play any different than wobbling does.

...
...
...what?

Pro-wobbling because it isn't broken. I've seen people like Wobbles lose plenty of matches, you just have to be careful.

 

[adumbrodeus]

walls dont force you to play any different than wobbling does.

... what?


Explain, please.


Are you saying that walls force you to play a "don't get shined" game?


Yes, that's true, but they have another of other implications, and this doesn't even address the relative difficulty of those two things in regards to mix-up potential.


If you can find something that was banned just to stop the shine infinite, then maybe we can make a legit comparison.

 

[KAOSTAR]

It still leads to an essentially guaranteed kill which is what everyone seems to be complaining about.

you can probably sdi and tech off the wall, or choose a character that falls.

stadium is admittedly the most controversial stage in terms of neutrality. recently moved to cp anyway.

 

[PEEF!]

We can all agree that PEEF performed badly as both a player and TO

Who the hell are you? I did very well as a player, I tied for 1st in my pool, and beat plenty of good people. I also only went 0-2 in bracket because I needed to go back to TOing. I lost last stock last match vs Smeesh, and I (easily) beat KrazyKnux in match 1 without wobbling. I forfeited that set after winning the first match, ask him.

I'm not even going to begin the TO discussion because YOU DONT MATTER.

Onto the argument...First of all, I am kindof offended that I am not included in the OP, because I have been largely spearheading the unbanning of wobbling this time around.

Here is a post of mine that I saved:

It turns the 9th best character into the...9th best character. No matchups move into their favor with it on vs it off. Therefore, it is completely unbannable from a fairness/game breaking perspective, because the game is clearly not broken.
From the stalling perspective, it is banned. End the wobble at 200%. Good. It takes about 10 seconds to wobble from 40 to 200. That means if you are wobbled every stock, you still can only spend a grand total of about 30 seconds getting wobbled. Marths chaingrabs on space animals to death on FD can take exactly twice as long. Wobbling is not bannable from a stalling perspective when ended at 200%.
From the "its not fun to get wobbled" perspective, its not fun to get rested (easier to set up than wobbling), and it's not fun to get lasered. Lasers actually make both Fox and Falco entirely better in the tier list, many of their good matchups would not be good without lasers. They are also 2 of the best characters in the game. Hm, maybe the game would be fairer without those lasers....Certainly makes more sense than taking away a tool from the 9th best character. Banning wobbling is one of the biggest mistakes in Melee history. One of the very few senseless rules ever implemented.


Wobbling compromise that I heard and like: (thats right, PEEF and compromise in the same sentence)

The wobble can only be 5 tilts, and the opponent can only CPs neutrals (unless the IC wants to go there of course).

This honestly I think is a quality compromise that I have heard several people support. It eliminates the ****ty-to-watch long *** wobbles. A 5 tilt wobble takes like 2 seconds, but it also eliminates ****ty-to-watch long *** campy rainbow cruise matches. Give a little, take a little. That's the way I like it =P

This rule will be used at POE4 whenever that happens.

 

[Skrlx]

i thought this topic got locked

 

[Pengie]

That compromise sounds pretty stupid honestly. Aside from the fact that there shouldn't be a compromise what's stopping the ICs from doing their 5 tilts and then doing somthing like down throw dair regrab and doing 5 more tilts. The whole limiting the stages to neutrals only thing is ******** as well >_>.

 

[Zone]

IC's have plenty of "infinites" with varying degrees of escapability or reading necessary. There are only two tactics in all of Melee that can be done with the TV off: wobbling and wallshining.

How does T.V. off mean anything?? Are you basically saying those two things require no reading? What does it matter if you need to read or not. A shiek chaingrab on certain members of the cast are guaranteed, as long as you react correctly. It's not even a read or prediction. You can literally wait to see which way they DI'd and react fast enough to regrab them. A guarantee is a guarantee, regardless if you need to read/react or not.

We as a community have done a lot to prevent Fox from waveshining opponents off of walk-off stages, which the Fox player can do with his eyes closed after hit confirm (barring extreme SDI). Only PS and the beginning of Cruise, to my knowledge, allow Fox to infinite the opponent. Those circumstances are limited due to the dynamic stages.

yes but the difference between fox and IC is that fox is already top tier. Ice climbers with wobbling still get ***** by fox. Giving a free K.O. from a shine, which is much easier to land on someone, than it is for a ice climber to land a grab with nana right next to you. Fox doesn't get his shine inhibited by circumstances EVER. Ice climbers do, if they are seperated your ability to wobble is gone, if your opponent is less than 30% you ability to wobble is gone if they mash out. Fox will never lose his ability to shine ever. Also I'm pretty sure those edge zones are banned not just because of fox. But because if someone is behind or ahead they can just camp the edge of the zone and hope to grab back throw for a quick catch up or lead. Which anyone can do. or falcon down throw chaingrabbing you to the edge of the zone until you die if your like Marth with a aerial thrown in if needed.

There is no Fox + Wallshining. Only Fox and Fox - Wallshining. Well, we as a community have set the stages so that we don't have to bear to see Fox wallshine in every match. Yes it's not the easiest tactic. Yes it's boring. However, it is position dependant and the setup is extremely limited.

It really isn't that limited as long as you are on the ground and the wall is in either direction. you can waveshine them into the wall, then wallshine them. I guess you can SDI and try and make it harder, but it's alot harder to SDI a shine Every time than it is to keep nana away from popo cuz she's stupid.

IC's can wobble on any part of the stage that the two little eskimos can stand on. Much like Fox's infinite, both the doer and the receiver do not move. Wobbling receives much hate because altho the setup is cut and clear, it is not hard to execute and it is not position dependant, given the IC's are able to stand there.

You can't wobble on moving stages like parts of rainbow cruise, or poke'floats, or certain times on mute city or brinstar. even though people have been banning poke'floats and mute city lately. You can still take them to either rainbow cruise or brinstar, because they can only ban one of those. And as for nuetral stages, yes you can do it anywhere, but Not anytime.... you can't do it if nana is away or dead, or she grabs you instead of popo for some reason.

I haven't seen other players truly complain about IC's other infinites. We've all learned not to get grabbed by them and we've learned tactics to prevent their grab punishments. What we can't stand is, after meeting a parameter that is certainly not impossible, watching the opponent rhythmically tap A and eat a sandwich with their other hand, while making faces at their opponent. Seriously. No other infinite is that dumb. You actually have to ask for it to be wallshined by Fox.

They don't complain because Ice climbers NEED something, and those technically also aren't infinites. And they like them because they feel like they can atleast try to smash DI or something. It's not just tapping A ;D you gotta hold forward or down also for the tilts

Of course you got to ask to be wallshined by fox, Because all the stages where it woulda been 100x easier are banned for many reasons.(Not solely because of fox.) The stages left are pokemon Stadium and Rainbow cruise. Which don't last long because of changing stages, or because of it's set up. It's kinda hard to wave shine someone when the mountain is up, because the player refuses to get into the center of the stage or the far left part. Same with the burning tree.

IC's are a frustrating character; they have a lot of tools. I personally as a TO will never allow wobbling. Do your other fancy **** as the IC's and land a billion percent (but do not stall) out of everything you can.

-to wobbles
I respect the difficulty of your character and the knowledge you possess. The heat PEEF has generated is much unneeded, but has brought light to this topic. If only for the very dumb reason, I just don't think wobbling is fun.

All I see here is they are frustrating... and they land a billion percent. If they land a billion percent almost everytime they grab, alot of times just leading to their deaths. Then why not let them wobble? it's actually just a very slight increase to their potential. But one they still need. Who care if you don't think wobbling is fun. I think it's fun when it's done to me. I just laugh it off and say "gay." Just like I would laugh it off and say "gay" if I got gimped.

Wobbling in general just gives them an advantage against puff and peach who they have a really hard time doing their grab tricks on.

 

[Nintendude]

That said, no anti-wobbling rule at apex! Gotta love Alex.

I asked Alex about it awhile ago and he replied with something like "this is on the EC, so it's obviously banned."

It's a horrendous double standard to allow ICs infinites in Brawl but not in Melee when it's the same tournament.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why? They're different games.

 

[Nintendude]

Pro-banners use the same arguments for both games from what I've seen. Yet somehow Brawl gets away with it even though Nana is smarter and easier to control in Brawl than in Melee. Sure, it's a lot harder to learn in Brawl, but you still see mediocre players getting consistent with it.

 

[Ballistics]

Who the hell are you? I did very well as a player, I tied for 1st in my pool, and beat plenty of good people. I also only went 0-2 in bracket because I needed to go back to TOing. I lost last stock last match vs Smeesh, and I (easily) beat KrazyKnux in match 1 without wobbling. I forfeited that set after winning the first match, ask him.

I'm not even going to begin the TO discussion because YOU DONT MATTER.

Onto the argument...First of all, I am kindof offended that I am not included in the OP, because I have been largely spearheading the unbanning of wobbling this time around.

Here is a post of mine that I saved:

It turns the 9th best character into the...9th best character. No matchups move into their favor with it on vs it off. Therefore, it is completely unbannable from a fairness/game breaking perspective, because the game is clearly not broken.
From the stalling perspective, it is banned. End the wobble at 200%. Good. It takes about 10 seconds to wobble from 40 to 200. That means if you are wobbled every stock, you still can only spend a grand total of about 30 seconds getting wobbled. Marths chaingrabs on space animals to death on FD can take exactly twice as long. Wobbling is not bannable from a stalling perspective when ended at 200%.
From the "its not fun to get wobbled" perspective, its not fun to get rested (easier to set up than wobbling), and it's not fun to get lasered. Lasers actually make both Fox and Falco entirely better in the tier list, many of their good matchups would not be good without lasers. They are also 2 of the best characters in the game. Hm, maybe the game would be fairer without those lasers....Certainly makes more sense than taking away a tool from the 9th best character. Banning wobbling is one of the biggest mistakes in Melee history. One of the very few senseless rules ever implemented.


Wobbling compromise that I heard and like: (thats right, PEEF and compromise in the same sentence)

The wobble can only be 5 tilts, and the opponent can only CPs neutrals (unless the IC wants to go there of course).

This honestly I think is a quality compromise that I have heard several people support. It eliminates the ****ty-to-watch long *** wobbles. A 5 tilt wobble takes like 2 seconds, but it also eliminates ****ty-to-watch long *** campy rainbow cruise matches. Give a little, take a little. That's the way I like it =P

This rule will be used at POE4 whenever that happens.

Sorry PEEF,

I've just been quoting people who've posted in this thread. I really like your compromise, because both sides give something up, so in return for a limited percent that you can wobble, ice climbers won't get stage counterpicked to death. This is a true compromise.

Good stuff

What about teams matches though?

Current poll if this were a poll:

17 for ban 42 for legal

 

[PEEF!]

Wobbling should be legal in teams because it isn't even good in teams.

 

[Ballistics]

Good point, or you could just use the same compromise since it remains applicable.

Wobbles, Im so glad you made it to this thread, your arguments are superb.

 

[Nintendude]

I don't think a compromise has to be made. The Melee community just has to man up and accept that ICs have a stupid infinite combo that doesn't even make them top tier. From this thread, it seems like most people are in agreement, but unfortunately people have no reason to complain to TOs since wobbling being banned benefits 99% of the community since almost nobody uses ICs.

 

[Pengie]

There's no need for a compromise when it isn't broken in the first place.

 

[Ballistics]

I don't think a compromise has to be made. The Melee community just has to man up and accept that ICs have a stupid infinite combo that doesn't even make them top tier. From this thread, it seems like most people are in agreement, but unfortunately people have no reason to complain to TOs since wobbling being banned benefits 99% of the community since almost nobody uses ICs.

Yes but in order to consolidate the community we have to consider everyone's opinion, and that is why a compromise would be the best course of action.

 

[PEEF!]

I don't like calling it an infinite whenever it is universally banned over 200% because of stalling, and ZERO PEOPLE dispute this. That means that in effect, it only works to 200. So as someone pointed out earlier, fox waveshine combos on PS only work for 30 seconds because of the stage, so you can't call it an infinite. Agreed. In that sense, you can't call wobbling an infinite because it is banned over 200%.

I really honestly think that my compromise would please everyone. Wobbling is not broken, most people understand that. The character is not the best even with wobbling. The main complaint is that it SUCKS to watch (true) and it takes forever. Anti-wobbling strategies also SUCK to watch (Rainbow cruise lazors, etc) and the matches take forever. All of these problems are solved by my compromise in a fashion that most people find agreeable. I encourage some bigger tournaments to consider trying it out.

 

[Nintendude]

Yes but in order to consolidate the community we have to consider everyone's opinion, and that is why a compromise would be the best course of action.

So if some subset of the community thought that Icicle Mountain was a valid stage we should compromise with them?

 

[EPsilon933]

So if some subset of the community thought that Icicle Mountain was a valid stage we should compromise with them?

That stage counters Mew2King in teams. I think it's worth it.

 

[Charlesz]

Nothing counters m2k except spawn!

 

[adumbrodeus]

I asked Alex about it awhile ago and he replied with something like "this is on the EC, so it's obviously banned."

It's a horrendous double standard to allow ICs infinites in Brawl but not in Melee when it's the same tournament.

Erm, not on the ruleset.


Should've known though, I doubt he actually agrees that it's banworthy, but he generally prefers to go with the regional feelings on issues.

Why? They're different games.

1. ICs are better in Brawl.

2. The CG is more powerful in the current brawl metagame.

 

[Vro]

Most of you are stupid. I'm only going to accept that it is not overcentralizing and it does not make the IC's the most broke character. Almost everyone's analogies suck ****. Zone, you are a terrible devil's advocate. For your very first counter argument you use Shiek's d-throw which REQUIRES you to have the TV on and see their reaction. That is why I bring up the TV being off; both players could eat a sandwich with the TV off during a wobble. Shucking fit, the wobbler could beat off during it.

I hate the what-if game. But let's just say there's a stage similiar to FD, perhaps just a little smaller. On the left side, it looks exactly the same. On the right side, there is a pretty tall wall. I bet you would all ban it because of Fox's infinite. Just because other stages were banned "for other reasons" besides Fox's infinite, doesn't mean we as a community didn't try to stop it.

I'm perfectly fine with IC's doing everything including hand-offs; just not ok with wobbling. It is not a nerf to their game, rather a "maybe I shouldn't just rhythmically tap A when I get a grab." It's not their only grab punishment. I'd rather hear "the game is fine with wobbling" than "harrr harrr IC's neeedz it!"

The only compromise I'm going to accept is wobbling should be allowed in teams and any non-wobble infinite performed by the IC's in singles be legal.

 

[Pengie]

Vro: Those last two parts are what I don't understand; what about wobbling makes it so much more bannable than their other infinites?

 

[Charlesz]

I wouldn't mind wobbling in teams.

 

[EPsilon933]

I wouldn't mind wobbling in teams.

If it can only be allowed in teams, at least remove the 200% limit. It could add some king of cool team strategy where the game is split into a 1v1 and a wobble somewhere else on the stage. However, the 200% limit should be put back into effect when there's 3 or less players remaining. But more importantly, when 4 players are playing double wobbling would be legal and would last the rest of the game. That would be funny.

 

[TemPesT-]

I only have one thing to say about the OP, he compares jiggs rest to wobbling, but i don't see them as equal. think about what happens if a jiggs misses a rest, now think about what happens if you miss a wobble, or grab even.

 

[Ballistics]

So if some subset of the community thought that Icicle Mountain was a valid stage we should compromise with them?

No definitely not, i see your point

Most of you are stupid. I'm only going to accept that it is not overcentralizing and it does not make the IC's the most broke character. Almost everyone's analogies suck ****. Zone, you are a terrible devil's advocate. For your very first counter argument you use Shiek's d-throw which REQUIRES you to have the TV on and see their reaction. That is why I bring up the TV being off; both players could eat a sandwich with the TV off during a wobble. Shucking fit, the wobbler could beat off during it.

I hate the what-if game. But let's just say there's a stage similiar to FD, perhaps just a little smaller. On the left side, it looks exactly the same. On the right side, there is a pretty tall wall. I bet you would all ban it because of Fox's infinite. Just because other stages were banned "for other reasons" besides Fox's infinite, doesn't mean we as a community didn't try to stop it.

I'm perfectly fine with IC's doing everything including hand-offs; just not ok with wobbling. It is not a nerf to their game, rather a "maybe I shouldn't just rhythmically tap A when I get a grab." It's not their only grab punishment. I'd rather hear "the game is fine with wobbling" than "harrr harrr IC's neeedz it!"

The only compromise I'm going to accept is wobbling should be allowed in teams and any non-wobble infinite performed by the IC's in singles be legal.

This debate is making me think how silly it is to ban moves. >.<

I only have one thing to say about the OP, he compares jiggs rest to wobbling, but i don't see them as equal. think about what happens if a jiggs misses a rest, now think about what happens if you miss a wobble, or grab even.

Yea thats a good point, but I still think they are pretty similar

 

[PEEF!]

Vro, you actually have to use 2 hands to wobble. one to keep the stick forward or down in order to make nana tilt, and the other to press a, so whacking off during is out of the question...unfortunately