Wobbling Compromise

[Pi]

If there comes a time when top level players are getting wobbled for multiple stocks, and losing matches due to it, I'll quit melee. Or better yet travel to those tournaments and win.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The fact is that at the highest level of play we are dealing with right now, wobbling is not game breaking, and is almost irrelevant in high end game play, I'll agree to this, and everyone else should as well. The only problem I see with wobbling is that it's a simple mechanic allowing for an easy, undeserving win, over an opponent who has not yet found the means to counter it.

This is stupid because you could take virtually any sort of slapstick death combo or gay defensive strategy or broken move, replace the word "wobbling" with it, and then you have the same argument. For instance...

The fact is that at the highest level of play we are dealing with right now, planking with Sheik is not game breaking, and is almost irrelevant in high end game play, I'll agree to this, and everyone else should as well. The only problem I see with planking with Sheik is that it's a simple mechanic allowing for an easy, undeserving win, over an opponent who has not yet found the means to counter it.

Appealing to average or below-average players is not an exercise I feel we should endorse. Matchups barely matter at that level. People barely know how to do their basics. Why is it our job to make it easier for them?

I'm fully aware of how the above comes off, but when you have the pro-wobbling community ctrl+v'ing the same old response of 'don't get grabbed', and preaching time and time again that it's a non-issue at a high level of play, I don't see how anyone could feel they are deserving of a win via the use of wobbling.

I don't understand how this is relevant to any of the discussion at all. If someone doesn't feel they earned the win, that's their own business.

If you wobble your opponent 4/4 stocks, then he sucks, but wobbling someone 4/4 stocks isn't going to make you a better player either. Banning wobbling has no overall negative effects on IC mains, nor does it on the smash community, because if ones goal is to become the best then you can't do it through the use of wobbling.

Again, this is probably correct on some levels, but I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Whether or not dependency on a powerful tool stifles the development of the IC metagame is not our concern. Is the technique broken enough on the character that it warrants a ban? Yes or no? Why? That's all we care about.

One way or the other I couldn't give two ****s about it, because whether or not I get kicked out of the tournament by an IC who wobbled me to victory, or a frame perfect fox player who overwhelmed me with tech skill, or a marth who gay'd the **** out of me with spaced moves, it doesn't matter because there are counters to these strategies. Find them and use them. And if you rely on wobbling to win you are never, ever, going to be the best. Enjoy the rhythmic sound of tapping A in mid placings. Why are you even playing the game ******?

Again, this is really interesting but what the hell does it have to do with anything?

I just can't fathom how low ones standards are that they could care one way or the other about whether or not this move is banned or legal. Neither side should give a **** because The best melee player will never be a wobbling IC.

What does this have to do with the argument?

 

[john!]

We have a similar issue in Wisconsin, with a different tactic. I'd like to hear the community's opinions on this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=279773

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

The fact is that at the highest level of play we are dealing with right now, wobbling is not game breaking, and is almost irrelevant in high end game play, I'll agree to this, and everyone else should as well. The only problem I see with wobbling is that it's a simple mechanic allowing for an easy, undeserving win, over an opponent who has not yet found the means to counter it.

I'm fully aware of how the above comes off, but when you have the pro-wobbling community ctrl+v'ing the same old response of 'don't get grabbed', and preaching time and time again that it's a non-issue at a high level of play, I don't see how anyone could feel they are deserving of a win via the use of wobbling.

If you wobble your opponent 4/4 stocks, then he sucks, but wobbling someone 4/4 stocks isn't going to make you a better player either. Banning wobbling has no overall negative effects on IC mains, nor does it on the smash community, because if ones goal is to become the best then you can't do it through the use of wobbling.

(yes I know 'having no negative effects' is not a valid pro-ban argument)

One way or the other I couldn't give two ****s about it, because whether or not I get kicked out of the tournament by an IC who wobbled me to victory, or a frame perfect fox player who overwhelmed me with tech skill, or a marth who gay'd the **** out of me with spaced moves, it doesn't matter because there are counters to these strategies. Find them and use them. And if you rely on wobbling to win you are never, ever, going to be the best. Enjoy the rhythmic sound of tapping A in mid placings. Why are you even playing the game ******?

I just can't fathom how low ones standards are that they could care one way or the other about whether or not this move is banned or legal. Neither side should give a **** because The best melee player will never be a wobbling IC.

It's well known in the gaming communities (all of them) that if you can't counter a tactic, then it's YOUR fault for not being able to either avoid it, counter it, or not choosing a better character.

"Undeserving" is so subjective that it holds almost no meaning anymore. Who's to say who "deserved' what kill. When Hbox jab reset rests Zhu three times in a row, did he "deserve" that win? I say yes, because Zhu missed a tech right next to Hbox and was thus punished for it with an instant kill. When M2K gimps DSW twice in a row with two subsequent grabs, are you going to tell me that he didn't "deserve" those kills?

Now are you going to turn around and say that when Wobbles punishes his opponent's predictability or spacing by grabbing them, he doesn't "deserve" those kills? He worked his *** off to get those grabs, and I don't see how he shouldn't be rewarded for managing to grab his opponent with a synced and close-by Nana when his opponent is the one who messed up.

Also, who are you to say who's a "better" player and who's not? When Wobbles used his named technique, is he suddenly a bad player? You, a Samus player of all people, should know how god**** difficult it is to get a grab. It's definitely not that much easier than grabbing with ICs small grab range. You preach about how wobbling doesn't make you a better player, acting like getting a grab is a simple matter. Yes, wobbling doesn't take much skill, but what about getting the synced grab? How difficult is that? Does that difficulty not compare to getting a rest or a Samus grab? Wobbling may not make you a "better" player but being able to consistently get grabs sure is.

Your last statement is just stupid. The "best" player in the world will probably not be an IC more because ICs can't compare to top tier characters than because wobbling somehow inhibits your improvement.

Which brings me to my last point. Since when do tournament rules cater to the improvement of its players? You seem to imply that we should ban wobbling because wobbling doesn't make you a better player or something irrelevant. How one improves is up to them and is not up for regulation via tournament rules.

The only viable argument that wobbling should not be allowed is that it's overpowered. I don't agree but this, at least, can be argued.

 

[Wobbles]

Hard to say, people get grabbed even if they try really hard not too.

I'm curious what you think about Fox.

To beat Fox, you have to pay attention to and avoid:

--shinespikes
--shine combos leading into KO moves.
--grabs so he can't KO you with u-throw and u-smash.
--throwing out blind, laggy moves so you don't get u-smashed as punishment.

Even knowing those moves are part of the Fox's gameplan, sometimes you still get hit by them! But part of beating Fox is landing your attacks and punishments more often than he hits you with his moves. So yeah, I lose a stock to a shine spike, I spend half my stock getting u-throw u-air'ed and then that's the same combo he finishes me with, but I win anyhow and two stock him.

You don't get to avoid every **** thing in this game. But if you are actually basing your strategy and gameplay around avoiding the thing the other guy wants to hit you with, it happens *far less.* Usually enough for you to win, if you play better than he does.

So yeah, you can go an entire game focusing on not getting grabbed by ICs and they still might land a few on you. But what if you were splitting up Nana and mashing like a maniac? What if you only got grabbed after she was dead? What if you were playing the **** matchup like you're supposed to? **** happens, you screw up, you lose stocks. If I three stock somebody using infinites, you know what I think? They let me land 4 grabs as the ICs and they've only managed to kill me once. How much do you have to be screwing up to let that happen?

You don't just sit there and go, "I SHALL WOBBLE THIS STOCK," and lo, they lose the stock. if you really think it's that easy, I dare you to try it. No, beating your friend that one time doesn't count. Go win a tournament. Go stomp on pros you've never beaten before. It's funny, I offer people to MM me with infinites and I use any other character I want, and nobody ever accepts. Why do you think that is?

 

[CloneHat]

wobbling is not game breaking, and is almost irrelevant in high end game play

That's all you really needed to write.

So the general consensus is that there isn't anything wrong with wobbling? I agree with this, but I can see TOs continuing to ban it because of personal preference. How will wobbling make it back into tourneys?

 

[Charlesz]

Lol you won a tourny by wobbling, even beating a very high level player called zhu in the GF. If you don't like IC's vs Fox then play another character. The fact that you can entirely lose your stock just because you get grabbed is retarted. I heard you can break out of it by button mashing if you are under like 30% or something if your lucky. And cool it wobbles lol, this is like you vs silentspectre rematch on yoshi story. I am simply stating my opinion on the topic of wobbling. I argued my *** off about wobbling a while ago and the only thing I am going to say is this. Lovage and m2k are always right, they think wobbling is gay. Therefore it is gei. UMADDDDD!?!??!

 

[CloneHat]

If Fox gets grabbed by a good Marth he'll usually lose a stock as well. It's not a new thing.

 

[Pr0jecT]

If Fox gets grabbed by a good Marth he'll usually lose a stock as well. It's not a new thing.

except marth can't chaingrab fox to 200% by tapping A

 

[Charlesz]

If Fox gets grabbed by a good Marth he'll usually lose a stock.

Depends, if there's a platform fox can mess up marth's chaingrab by teching. And at a certain point fox can shine the chaingrab ( 23%+?)/ DI downwards , forcing the marth to read his tech/roll/get up.

 

[Wobbles]

You could always ask Zhu what he thinks of me. You could also mention that I agreed not to use it in the second set and I still won.

"If you don't like IC's vs Fox then play another character." If you don't like fighting IC's with characters I can combo into infinites, then play Peach. Debating like this is pretty easy!

I'm not really all that angry either. I won that tourney by outplaying my opponents, but the infinite let me punish harder and more securely than I would have otherwise. Again, if you folks think it's such an easy way to win, then you are free to do it. I know you won't, and not because "it's gay" but because you can't, and that's pretty much the end of that.

I know what I could do though, I could come to your little baby fisher price tournaments for scrubs who can't handle the full version of this game, and just take all your money. Then u would be madd. loooool.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Depends, if there's a platform fox can mess up marth's chaingrab by teching. And at a certain point fox can shine the chaingrab ( 23%+?)/ DI downwards , forcing the marth to read his tech/roll/get up.

Pivot grab counters the percent-specific shine crap. You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[pockyD]

One way or the other I couldn't give two ****s about it, because whether or not I get kicked out of the tournament by an IC who wobbled me to victory, or a frame perfect fox player who overwhelmed me with tech skill, or a marth who gay'd the **** out of me with spaced moves, it doesn't matter because there are counters to these strategies. Find them and use them. And if you rely on wobbling to win you are never, ever, going to be the best. Enjoy the rhythmic sound of tapping A in mid placings. Why are you even playing the game ******?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I

 

[Charlesz]

You could always ask Zhu what he thinks of me. You could also mention that I agreed not to use it in the second set and I still won.

"If you don't like IC's vs Fox then play another character." If you don't like fighting IC's with characters I can combo into infinites, then play Peach. Debating like this is pretty easy!

I'm not really all that angry either. I won that tourney by outplaying my opponents, but the infinite let me punish harder and more securely than I would have otherwise. Again, if you folks think it's such an easy way to win, then you are free to do it. I know you won't, and not because "it's gay" but because you can't, and that's pretty much the end of that.

I know what I could do though, I could come to your little baby fisher price tournaments for scrubs who can't handle the full version of this game, and just take all your money. Then u would be madd. loooool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pTVhtIawbQ

Don't even lol. When I got ***** by wak at the last tourny I just smiled and shook his hand instead of throwing **** all over the place. If you came to our tournys then you would be able to take MY money but not vanitas's money lolol. He's ics are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than yours brah!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Since you're clearly trolling I'm going to ask you politely to leave the thread. You haven't contributed anything useful and most of your information has been either riddled with inaccuracies, a not-so-subtle jibe at people, or terribly wrong.

 

[Charlesz]

your no mod buddy lolol

 

[pockyD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pTVhtIawbQ

Don't even lol. When I got ***** by wak at the last tourny I just smiled and shook his hand instead of throwing **** all over the place. If you came to our tournys then you would be able to take MY money but not vanitas's money lolol. He's ics are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than yours brah!

look at that. Wobbles getting whooped at a tournament where wobbling was legal (ignoring that it's like a year and a half ago)

gamebreaking!

low (and irrelevant) blow though

 

[KirbyKaze]

your no mod buddy lolol

I am aware. But that does not in any way invalidate my observation that your points have been awful and largely personal attacks.

 

[Wobbles]

Yep, I lost to Silent Spectre and threw my controller. There's a lot you don't know about me and why I got angry at that tournament, but it's really not worth it to educate you because not many folks are interested in my life story. Maybe it would interest you to know I haven't thrown a controller *or* temper tantrum since then? That I'm a better player and in better control of myself since that tournament? Probably not.

Ask anybody whose played me since then what they think of my skill and my attitude. If you're going to try and make this personal, then do that much before you start talking like you know.

 

[Pr0jecT]

Although I don't necessarily agree with Wobbling. Theres no reason to call people out on frustration and rage quits, a thrown controller is nothing new. Unknown threw a chair at ROM2. I remember back in 07 at a small venue here in NY some dude threw his controller at the ground, curb stomped it and punched a wall.

 

[P.C. Jona]

falcon makes people mad

what do you expect

i was beating some kid in friendlies at a tourney pretty bad

and he threw his controller too

i was like ugghhhh

LOL

people have bad days, people have problems,

i know i do..

but its best to stay away from smash, people, everything when your pissed off

until you cool off

just sayin

lets all b friends


hahaaha

 

[Charlesz]

Yep, I lost to Silent Spectre and threw my controller. There's a lot you don't know about me and why I got angry at that tournament, but it's really not worth it to educate you because not many folks are interested in my life story. Maybe it would interest you to know I haven't thrown a controller *or* temper tantrum since then? That I'm a better player and in better control of myself since that tournament? Probably not.

Ask anybody whose played me since then what they think of my skill and my attitude. If you're going to try and make this personal, then do that much before you start talking like you know.

I agree. Regardless I'd like to apologize for my attacks. TBH I pretty much said " getting grabbed is harder than you think", and then you started rambling on the implications of getting grabbed and the matchups concerning ic climbers. But cmon "fisher price tourneys?", lolol you can't completely pin me for jabbing you back.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I agree. Regardless I'd like to apologize for my attacks. TBH I pretty much said " getting grabbed is harder than you think", and then you started rambling on the implications of getting grabbed and the matchups concerning ic climbers. But cmon "fisher price tourneys?", lolol you can't completely pin me for jabbing you back.

Lol you won a tourny by wobbling, even beating a very high level player called zhu in the GF. If you don't like IC's vs Fox then play another character. The fact that you can entirely lose your stock just because you get grabbed is retarted. I heard you can break out of it by button mashing if you are under like 30% or something if your lucky. And cool it wobbles lol, this is like you vs silentspectre rematch on yoshi story. I am simply stating my opinion on the topic of wobbling. I argued my *** off about wobbling a while ago and the only thing I am going to say is this. Lovage and m2k are always right, they think wobbling is gay. Therefore it is gei. UMADDDDD!?!??!

I can't possibly see how anyone could take this gem of a post offensively.

 

[Charlesz]

I never said that wasn't a personal attack.

 

[Wobbles]

I agree. Regardless I'd like to apologize for my attacks. TBH I pretty much said " getting grabbed is harder than you think", and then you started rambling on the implications of getting grabbed and the matchups concerning ic climbers. But cmon "fisher price tourneys?", lolol you can't completely pin me for jabbing you back.

I've spent most of my smash career having people tell me I'm awful and that anybody can do what I do and win money like it's easy mode. I've also spent most of my smash career in and out of psychiatrist offices trying unsuccessfully to treat depression and bipolar disorder, and Smash is one of the few things that keeps me going. So I do have a certain degree of sensitivity when people decide they want to **** talk me even though I've worked harder than 99% of them to get to the level I'm at today.

And then I play people in person and they say to me "wow you're actually like kind of good." Gets old, man. If people wanna talk **** they can, but they should either a) make it funny or b) back it up.

 

[P.C. Jona]

come on lets not let it get like that

i hate that

smack talk being taken personally

it would never be like this irl so come on

guys are scrubssss

f is for friends who do stuff together

 

[Strong Badam]

wobbles you are so bad, i could land a grab on you and kill you

IC's ditto $100 mm at pound 5??!

 

[Taj278]

I play Mewtwo. Mewtwo > Wobbling. Your arguments are all invalid.

 

[Strong Badam]

**** .

 

[Charlesz]

I play Mewtwo. Mewtwo > Wobbling. Your arguments are all invalid.

Can't go wrong with that

 

[Wobbles]

Taj ruins everything.

 

[Vyzor]

why was this thread made It's created chaos and made me baaaaaaaw

 

[Strong Badam]

AHA! WOBBLES IGNORED MY CHALLENGE, HE IS ASCURRED OF MY SUPERIOR ICE CLIMBERS

UNDENIABLE PROOF OF WOBBLES' BADNESS

SEE IT FOR YOURSELF FOLKS!

Spoiler

capital letters

 

[Strong Badam]

fail internet

 

[Pi]

This is stupid because you could take virtually any sort of slapstick death combo or gay defensive strategy or broken move, replace the word "wobbling" with it, and then you have the same argument. For instance...

The fact is that at the highest level of play we are dealing with right now, planking with Sheik is not game breaking, and is almost irrelevant in high end game play, I'll agree to this, and everyone else should as well. The only problem I see with planking with Sheik is that it's a simple mechanic allowing for an easy, undeserving win, over an opponent who has not yet found the means to counter it.

Appealing to average or below-average players is not an exercise I feel we should endorse. Matchups barely matter at that level. People barely know how to do their basics. Why is it our job to make it easier for them?


I don't understand how this is relevant to any of the discussion at all. If someone doesn't feel they earned the win, that's their own business.


Again, this is probably correct on some levels, but I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Whether or not dependency on a powerful tool stifles the development of the IC metagame is not our concern. Is the technique broken enough on the character that it warrants a ban? Yes or no? Why? That's all we care about.


Again, this is really interesting but what the hell does it have to do with anything?


What does this have to do with the argument?

I thought I made it pretty clear that I don't care one way or the other, and was merely providing my backing for why a compromise could be made.

 

[KirbyKaze]

A compromise is stupid for a variety of reasons provided throughout the thread.

edit: If you don't care, why post?

 

[P.C. Jona]

fail internet

scrub thats why people avoid the middle of the united states

it sucks

ec and wc >Middle of noWhere

note the MandW are capital

if u put them together its MW

which is you

im so smart

someone write me an auto biography

 

[Pi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I

Grats on winning your local tourney bro, see you in bracket @ pound5....oh wait.

 

[Strong Badam]

There's nothing to compromise. The MBR Rule Set does not mention wobbling. It is legal. If TO's like Alukard and Plank want to ban it, then I will simply pretend all of my opponents are Inui.

LOL @ PC Jona, I love you.

 

[Vyzor]

scrub thats why people avoid the middle of the united states

it sucks

ec and wc >Middle of noWhere

note the MandW are capital

if u put them together its MW

which is you

im so smart

someone write me an auto biography

MW...Modern Warfare? I c ware u r going with this. we shud all play MW2!

i have no idea what im talking about anymore