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Wobbling Compromise
- Thread starter Ballistics
- Start date
This.
And if you want to make another thread to discus wobbling, fine, but do it with less spam. This is ridiculous.
In all seriousness, if you guys want another thread to discuss the status on wobbling, feel free too. In fact, I think I might just unlock this thread. This thread wasn't too bad, and had a lot of quality posts and discussion going on. It just got a little iffy near the end where most posts were getting off topic and sparked a thread lock.
Just try to keep it a little more on topic this time k? ^^ Especially you Strong Bad >_>
Also, there's plenty of room to compromise. The MBR Rule Set isn't the only ruleset to go by, and a lot local TO's and regions have modifications in their rule sets. As a matter of fact, the issue of wobbling was brought up in my own region not too long ago. If anything, TOs and smashers in general can read through the debates in this thread and decide on their own. I know my opinions have changed after reading through.
Just try to keep it a little more on topic this time k? ^^ Especially you Strong Bad >_>
Also, there's plenty of room to compromise. The MBR Rule Set isn't the only ruleset to go by, and a lot local TO's and regions have modifications in their rule sets. As a matter of fact, the issue of wobbling was brought up in my own region not too long ago. If anything, TOs and smashers in general can read through the debates in this thread and decide on their own. I know my opinions have changed after reading through.
T-block
B2B TST
^______^
Guess i'd better add something lol
To people suggesting a compromise:
Why are we taking something away from this character? What if they land a grab on Pokefloats, and by the time you finish the chain grab, they'd be able to tech one of the floats after the smash? They're not allowed to wobble until the float goes away? What if for some reason I really really hated the Water transformation on PS1. I'm not allowed to wobble until it returns to neutral? What if I finish my chain grab combo on Kongo 64, but the barrel would save him if I f-smashed him off the edge? I'm not allowed to wobble until the barrel would be on the other side when he recovers?
Compromises like "only 50% from wobbling" or something like that are dangerous, because there are almost always other, unconsidered factors that could come up. Things like dynamic stages could introduce situations where the ICs gain more than just extra damage from being allowed to wobble. To be honest, I don't like these kind of compromise rules - either ban it (which brings up the question of enforceability - one d-tilt? two d-tilts?) or let it be, and you avoid a lot of issues.
@OP: I really like the comparison to Jigglypuff's Rest btw. Good stuff.
Guess i'd better add something lol
To people suggesting a compromise:
Why are we taking something away from this character? What if they land a grab on Pokefloats, and by the time you finish the chain grab, they'd be able to tech one of the floats after the smash? They're not allowed to wobble until the float goes away? What if for some reason I really really hated the Water transformation on PS1. I'm not allowed to wobble until it returns to neutral? What if I finish my chain grab combo on Kongo 64, but the barrel would save him if I f-smashed him off the edge? I'm not allowed to wobble until the barrel would be on the other side when he recovers?
Compromises like "only 50% from wobbling" or something like that are dangerous, because there are almost always other, unconsidered factors that could come up. Things like dynamic stages could introduce situations where the ICs gain more than just extra damage from being allowed to wobble. To be honest, I don't like these kind of compromise rules - either ban it (which brings up the question of enforceability - one d-tilt? two d-tilts?) or let it be, and you avoid a lot of issues.
@OP: I really like the comparison to Jigglypuff's Rest btw. Good stuff.
Letting it be causes a lot of problems as well. First, they could very well run the clock out, but wouldn't that be considered stalling? At what point would it not be considered stalling?
And like you said Maiko, banning causes its own set of problems. What is the limitation on the number of times the ice climber can pummel + f/d tilt? Among many other problems.
The only thing I can think of is making it legal and putting a percent limit on it like they have in Brawl.
And like you said Maiko, banning causes its own set of problems. What is the limitation on the number of times the ice climber can pummel + f/d tilt? Among many other problems.
The only thing I can think of is making it legal and putting a percent limit on it like they have in Brawl.
T-block
B2B TST
Which is exactly my conclusion as well.
/nod
/nod
Exactly. The problem with wobbling doesn't have much to do with whether or not ICies need it to win or not, but all the difficult to enforce problems that are attached to each of the 2 options.
There has to be some kind of compromise. Maybe the one suggested in the OP, maybe not. But a compromise is likely the best solution to this.
There has to be some kind of compromise. Maybe the one suggested in the OP, maybe not. But a compromise is likely the best solution to this.
T-block
B2B TST
Oh I guess if you consider a percent cap a compromise then sure.
It just seems so obviously necessary if wobbling were to be legal that I don't really consider it a compromise, but yeah, I agree.
It just seems so obviously necessary if wobbling were to be legal that I don't really consider it a compromise, but yeah, I agree.
_lemons
Smash Journeyman
I came in this thread unsure of my opinion on Wobbling, but kind of leaning against it (predominately because it's "boring" as I've never played an IC's), but the pro-wobbling camp won me over. I still don't like the rest/shine comparisons, for whatever that's worth.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
It shouldn't be banned. ICs wouldn't even be top 3 with it legal, so there's no real reason to ban it.
Don't get grabbed.
Or limit it to 300% to prevent stalling.
Don't get grabbed.
Or limit it to 300% to prevent stalling.
Lovage
Smash Hero
wobblings so gay
with it on you get a grab at 30 and they die
with it off you dthrow dair and handoff and fsmash regrab and they die and it takes like 2 mini-reads and 140200 times more skill to do and looks 14235 times cooler
on or off, it's the exact same outcome when fly grabs me in tourament, except when it's off i can give him respect for doing sick skillful sht with baby reads and precise timing instead of tapping a till 150% BORING
with it on you get a grab at 30 and they die
with it off you dthrow dair and handoff and fsmash regrab and they die and it takes like 2 mini-reads and 140200 times more skill to do and looks 14235 times cooler
on or off, it's the exact same outcome when fly grabs me in tourament, except when it's off i can give him respect for doing sick skillful sht with baby reads and precise timing instead of tapping a till 150% BORING
restings so gay
with rest, jiggs can get a uthrow at 0, rest, and they die
without rest, jiggs can bair a bunch until the opponent loses.
but in all seriousness...stalling ends up being the major factor here with wobbling, not with whether or not its an easy kill. There are plenty of characters that get easy kills. Plus, you have to keep in mind that ICs grab range isn't very impressive, and both ICs have to be in a relatively good position with one another to be able to get to wobble. At that point, that only happens when the opponent makes a mistake.
But the thing is...so ICs get a grab at 30%, when will they decide to kill you? Are they a stock ahead? Will they stop and kill you at 150%? 200%? 300%? Or until the clock runs out? Would that be stalling? How long would it take for it to be considered stalling?
Aiii, i'm addressing the same stuff repeatedly I think -.-
with rest, jiggs can get a uthrow at 0, rest, and they die
without rest, jiggs can bair a bunch until the opponent loses.
but in all seriousness...stalling ends up being the major factor here with wobbling, not with whether or not its an easy kill. There are plenty of characters that get easy kills. Plus, you have to keep in mind that ICs grab range isn't very impressive, and both ICs have to be in a relatively good position with one another to be able to get to wobble. At that point, that only happens when the opponent makes a mistake.
But the thing is...so ICs get a grab at 30%, when will they decide to kill you? Are they a stock ahead? Will they stop and kill you at 150%? 200%? 300%? Or until the clock runs out? Would that be stalling? How long would it take for it to be considered stalling?
Aiii, i'm addressing the same stuff repeatedly I think -.-
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
stalling isnt a factor. there are specific rules against it.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Do what Brawl did and limit it to 300%.
Or test it some and see if that's too much damage. Maybe 200% would be good.
And banning it because reading the opponent looks cooler and you won't respect someone as much for doing it? lol
Or test it some and see if that's too much damage. Maybe 200% would be good.
And banning it because reading the opponent looks cooler and you won't respect someone as much for doing it? lol
that's what I'm getting at though. The whole thing about wobbling.
1. When is it considered wobbling? After you pummel and d/f tilt? How many consecutive pummels and d/f tilts does it take for it to be change from being considered a cg to wobbling? Once? Twice? What if IC's dthrew -> dair -> blahblahblah and threw in a few pummel d/f tilts? Would that still be considered wobbling or part of the cg?
2. If wobbling was banned, when would it stop being considered wobbling and start being considered stalling? After a certain amount of time as elapsed? After a certain of damage has been accumulated?
The problems go deeper than just "It's an easy kill, ICs are fine without it" and "It's boring" because there are all these problems and technicalities that happen when we choose to ban it or not.
T-block
B2B TST
i'm so proud of you vic
I'm so used to doing this that when it's banned I throw in tilts in between repetitions of d-throw d-air and the handoff. Nobody complains; I doubt they even notice. It comes out to about the same effect as doing headbutt+blizzard if you do like, 2 tilts during a grab, so there's no extra advantage to be had. It's what I'm comfy with and I've never played somebody who cares.
TO's that *do* ban it will vary in their restrictions. Some will go up to as many as 5 tilts during a grab. Some will say as few as one. Nobody ever says zero because it's impossible to enforce, especially if somebody dashes forward and still happens to be holding forward or something when they hit A to headbutt for a bit of damage. You can accidentally DQ yourself, which no TO wants to try and police. So more obvious numbers like 2 and 3 are common, when the TO bothers to specify.
I've also always played under the impression that once somebody is KO-able, you are obligated to finish them because then you are pointlessly stalling. My first game ever against M2K I landed the first grab against him and started infiniting, and once I hit around 140 percent he turned and said "No Stalling!" Apparently he was worried I'd get lucky grabs then infinite for 8 minutes to win against him. I was actually I just holding out for about 170 percent since it was Dreamland, and it's M2K. If you can KO M2K, you wanna make sure he's dead lol. I never infinite past 200 percent unless I can justify it, like if I grab them in front of the Pokemon Stadium tree and wait for the transformation to end so they can't tech. My reasoning being that it's not stalling because I'm trying to solidify a KO, not run out the clock. Once that tree is gone, I smash them out because the justification is gone.
Rules rules rules.
TO's that *do* ban it will vary in their restrictions. Some will go up to as many as 5 tilts during a grab. Some will say as few as one. Nobody ever says zero because it's impossible to enforce, especially if somebody dashes forward and still happens to be holding forward or something when they hit A to headbutt for a bit of damage. You can accidentally DQ yourself, which no TO wants to try and police. So more obvious numbers like 2 and 3 are common, when the TO bothers to specify.
I've also always played under the impression that once somebody is KO-able, you are obligated to finish them because then you are pointlessly stalling. My first game ever against M2K I landed the first grab against him and started infiniting, and once I hit around 140 percent he turned and said "No Stalling!" Apparently he was worried I'd get lucky grabs then infinite for 8 minutes to win against him. I was actually I just holding out for about 170 percent since it was Dreamland, and it's M2K. If you can KO M2K, you wanna make sure he's dead lol. I never infinite past 200 percent unless I can justify it, like if I grab them in front of the Pokemon Stadium tree and wait for the transformation to end so they can't tech. My reasoning being that it's not stalling because I'm trying to solidify a KO, not run out the clock. Once that tree is gone, I smash them out because the justification is gone.
Rules rules rules.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
1. This is a VERY important point that certainly has to be addressed by the anti-wobbling side. During an ICs chaingrab it is actually a good idea to throw in 1 or 2 f-tilts in between grabs because you can easily do it without knocking the opponent out of the grab and it's faster than blizzard is. Some people refer to this as "semi-wobbling." Can this be considered wobbling? How do you know if the opponent was supposed to break out due to mashing but couldn't because the IC f-tilts happened to be perfectly synched like for Wobbling? All rules in Smash except for stalling avoid ambiguities like this.
2. People often set percent thresholds like 200% or 300%. I think that's a reasonable way to define it.
After reading G-reg's experience, I finally realize why I hate wobbling so much.
IC's have plenty of "infinites" with varying degrees of escapability or reading necessary. There are only two tactics in all of Melee that can be done with the TV off: wobbling and wallshining. We as a community have done a lot to prevent Fox from waveshining opponents off of walk-off stages, which the Fox player can do with his eyes closed after hit confirm (barring extreme SDI). Only PS and the beginning of Cruise, to my knowledge, allow Fox to infinite the opponent. Those circumstances are limited due to the dynamic stages.
There is no Fox + Wallshining. Only Fox and Fox - Wallshining. Well, we as a community have set the stages so that we don't have to bear to see Fox wallshine in every match. Yes it's not the easiest tactic. Yes it's boring. However, it is position dependant and the setup is extremely limited.
IC's can wobble on any part of the stage that the two little eskimos can stand on. Much like Fox's infinite, both the doer and the receiver do not move. Wobbling receives much hate because altho the setup is cut and clear, it is not hard to execute and it is not position dependant, given the IC's are able to stand there.
I haven't seen other players truly complain about IC's other infinites. We've all learned not to get grabbed by them and we've learned tactics to prevent their grab punishments. What we can't stand is, after meeting a parameter that is certainly not impossible, watching the opponent rhythmically tap A and eat a sandwich with their other hand, while making faces at their opponent. Seriously. No other infinite is that dumb. You actually have to ask for it to be wallshined by Fox.
IC's are a frustrating character; they have a lot of tools. I personally as a TO will never allow wobbling. Do your other fancy **** as the IC's and land a billion percent (but do not stall) out of everything you can.
-to wobbles
I respect the difficulty of your character and the knowledge you possess. The heat PEEF has generated is much unneeded, but has brought light to this topic. If only for the very dumb reason, I just don't think wobbling is fun.
IC's have plenty of "infinites" with varying degrees of escapability or reading necessary. There are only two tactics in all of Melee that can be done with the TV off: wobbling and wallshining. We as a community have done a lot to prevent Fox from waveshining opponents off of walk-off stages, which the Fox player can do with his eyes closed after hit confirm (barring extreme SDI). Only PS and the beginning of Cruise, to my knowledge, allow Fox to infinite the opponent. Those circumstances are limited due to the dynamic stages.
There is no Fox + Wallshining. Only Fox and Fox - Wallshining. Well, we as a community have set the stages so that we don't have to bear to see Fox wallshine in every match. Yes it's not the easiest tactic. Yes it's boring. However, it is position dependant and the setup is extremely limited.
IC's can wobble on any part of the stage that the two little eskimos can stand on. Much like Fox's infinite, both the doer and the receiver do not move. Wobbling receives much hate because altho the setup is cut and clear, it is not hard to execute and it is not position dependant, given the IC's are able to stand there.
I haven't seen other players truly complain about IC's other infinites. We've all learned not to get grabbed by them and we've learned tactics to prevent their grab punishments. What we can't stand is, after meeting a parameter that is certainly not impossible, watching the opponent rhythmically tap A and eat a sandwich with their other hand, while making faces at their opponent. Seriously. No other infinite is that dumb. You actually have to ask for it to be wallshined by Fox.
IC's are a frustrating character; they have a lot of tools. I personally as a TO will never allow wobbling. Do your other fancy **** as the IC's and land a billion percent (but do not stall) out of everything you can.
-to wobbles
I respect the difficulty of your character and the knowledge you possess. The heat PEEF has generated is much unneeded, but has brought light to this topic. If only for the very dumb reason, I just don't think wobbling is fun.
A Pimp Named Slickback
Smash Lord
enforce the rule of cool
if it looks gay ban it amirite
if it looks gay ban it amirite
Lovage
Smash Hero
are you stupid or something
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
I've never been wobbled *****es.
If you don't wanna get wobbled move to florida because theres only like 2 IC in Florida and neither of them wobble.
If you don't wanna get wobbled move to florida because theres only like 2 IC in Florida and neither of them wobble.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
And melee players are complaining about brawlers thinking about banning MK?
Even if MK was banned, we're a ton more banhappy then brawlers are.
Now, let me ask these questions about wobbling:
1. Does it overcentralize the metagame?
2. Are ICs even the best character with them?
3. If the answer to both is no, what reason is there to nerf the ICs?
Even if MK was banned, we're a ton more banhappy then brawlers are.
Now, let me ask these questions about wobbling:
1. Does it overcentralize the metagame?
2. Are ICs even the best character with them?
3. If the answer to both is no, what reason is there to nerf the ICs?
StealthyGunnar
Smash Champion
The fact of the matter is, those who can wobble will want to. Those who have been wobbled will not want to and will ban it. Basically we're just speaking from past experiences. But I say allow it, seriously. JUST DON"T GET GRABBED, K? Just f*cking pick up Fox or CF and run all over the place so they can't catch you.
And Victra, I think that's only on Fox and maybe Falco? And I suppose DIng is Illegal?
EDIT: Adumbrodeus, no and no. There is not one reason to nerf the IC's. Brawlers banned MK and yet he is allowed in major tournies. Even the top players use him, so why can't players in Melee use wobbling?
And Victra, I think that's only on Fox and maybe Falco? And I suppose DIng is Illegal?
EDIT: Adumbrodeus, no and no. There is not one reason to nerf the IC's. Brawlers banned MK and yet he is allowed in major tournies. Even the top players use him, so why can't players in Melee use wobbling?
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
So the argument isn't that its broken, but that its boring? LOL.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Rhetorical questions, I'm quite familiar with wobbling (I'm more a melee player then a brawl player)
And there's no MK ban (yet), I guess my wording was confusing, I meant that even if MK was banned, the melee community bans more easily then the brawl community.
StealthyGunnar
Smash Champion
Well, not in major tournies, but MK has been banned from lots of minor tournies. Besides, it's your f*cking fault if you're too sloppy with your approach and get grabbed.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Ehhh, never on a widescale, experimental tournaments pretty much. Also, pretty much no brawl player would consider banning ICs CGs. Assuming that they're both 0-deaths. More banhappy then the brawl community, shame.
Exactly, you get sloppy, you get grabbed. Most characters have the tools to deal with it, and if you don't, there are strong CPs both stage and character-wise.
Also, why am I being stalked? lol
CloneHat
Smash Champion
The BRoom never banned it, but at every major tournament I've seen lately, wobbling is banned. The problem is that although it's not broken, people will still ban it because it's "gay". Others will just say, "Oh it's up to the TO," and even if a vote was held or some other ****, wobbling will not be actually legalized.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
It's called social inertia, once something is a generally accepted thing, it's hard to make people see what's wrong with it.
That said, no anti-wobbling rule at apex! Gotta love Alex.
That said, no anti-wobbling rule at apex! Gotta love Alex.
StealthyGunnar
Smash Champion
lol. Well, I still think Wobbling should be allowed.
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
thank you vro, this is exactly what i was saying when i said "your character isn't special"
we have banned the possibility of the more technically demanding fox infinities, but the basic, 1 button IC infinite that can be done anywhere anytime remain legal.
im also honestly on the edge on whether or not handing off should be legal.
i think it should be, but it borderline shouldnt be.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2008
- Messages
- 7,187
Why should something that's (theoretically) easy be banned? Why should we limit the (chances of) success of people who play Ice Climbers?
Wobbling has a few requirements to work:
1) Nana alive, more specifically, she needs to be close.
2) Popo needs to grab
3) The Ice Climbers player needs to keep hitting A at a certain BPM, if there's a bit of bad timing, the victim could escape.
The Solutions:
1) keep Nana separated from Popo, preferably dead
2) don't get grabbed. Learn how the player tries to get grabs, adapt to it and figure out a strategy to not get grabbed.
3) Mash out before the Ice Climbers player can start with the correct timing
Even with Wobbling, Ice Climbers are not top tier like Falco/Fox/Jigglypuff/Marth/Sheik, and they're not even better than them. Wobbling will allow Ice Climbers to compete at a closer level to them so they deserve their perk. It will improve character balance among the top 8.
Just because something is boring and easy, it doesn't mean it's always wrong.
Wobbling has a few requirements to work:
1) Nana alive, more specifically, she needs to be close.
2) Popo needs to grab
3) The Ice Climbers player needs to keep hitting A at a certain BPM, if there's a bit of bad timing, the victim could escape.
The Solutions:
1) keep Nana separated from Popo, preferably dead
2) don't get grabbed. Learn how the player tries to get grabs, adapt to it and figure out a strategy to not get grabbed.
3) Mash out before the Ice Climbers player can start with the correct timing
Even with Wobbling, Ice Climbers are not top tier like Falco/Fox/Jigglypuff/Marth/Sheik, and they're not even better than them. Wobbling will allow Ice Climbers to compete at a closer level to them so they deserve their perk. It will improve character balance among the top 8.
Just because something is boring and easy, it doesn't mean it's always wrong.
pockyD
Smash Legend
Fox is already the best character; the argument against walls (which i'm not sure that i personally agree with but has been such a long-set precedent that i pretty much accept it on faith) is that it pushes him to the level of broken by being the best character by a significant margin on stages where the tactic is available.
On the other hand, as we've all observed, wobbling is not gamebreaking, and the ICs aren't even a top 5 character when using it
Ease of use is irrelevant, since it's 'easily' possible to consistently inifinite... it's not some unattainable ideal - while it's somewhat technically demanding, it's also something most high-level foxes can do on command.
In addition, on some level, the fact that wobbling 'can be done anywhere' is almost a pro-wobbling argument, since that, combined with the fact that it's not broken, shows that it's far from centralizing and doesn't introduce unacceptable variance, unlike a fox getting whooped on all stages but ones with walls and also forcing a different playstyle when the walls are present; wobbling is ALWAYS present so play is consistent
Atlus8
Smash Master
The wobble argument is still going on?! I guess people still haven't manned up!
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Which more technically demanding fox infinites?
We ban stages cause fox overcentralizes on, but they're generally for a number of reasons. Corneria was generally legal until a very short time ago and quite frankly there was a lot more to it then just the possible shine infinite (and I disagree with the ridiculous conservatism in terms of stage selection that we're going through atm).
Honestly, what stage was banned just because fox could wall infinite on it?
StealthyGunnar
Smash Champion
Just F*ckin man up and don't get grabbed.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
there is no possibility of a shine infinite on Corneria.
the ease of use of wobbling is entirely irrelevant to this issue. if wobbling was "hold forward, tap A then hold down, tap B, repeat" it wouldn't make a difference. It's still not bannable because it's just an aspect of IC's.
Disposing of your opponent when it's a guaranteed KO is pretty basic and easy to enforce.
the ease of use of wobbling is entirely irrelevant to this issue. if wobbling was "hold forward, tap A then hold down, tap B, repeat" it wouldn't make a difference. It's still not bannable because it's just an aspect of IC's.
Disposing of your opponent when it's a guaranteed KO is pretty basic and easy to enforce.