Wobbling Compromise

[pockyD]

This is how I see wobbling. Example: IC's vs Fox. IC's have 1 stock left, Fox has 3. IC mainer: Oh man, better wobble to take off his next 3 stocks. *wobbles next 3 stocks* *IC's win*

so what's wrong with that?

 

[Nintendude]

This is how I see wobbling. Example: IC's vs Fox. IC's have 1 stock left, Fox has 3. IC mainer: Oh man, better wobble to take off his next 3 stocks. *wobbles next 3 stocks* *IC's win*

That's no different than a Jiggly player camping the edge and gimping Fox 3 times (which has certainly happened in the past).

 

[john!]

There is stuff in this game that is so much gayer than wobbling. The only reason this is an issue is because people get humiliated by sitting there and watching their character get wobbled. It's not overpowered at all; in fact, I think it's hilarious that we're nerfing a character that's not even top 5 in the game.

But if you really want a compromise, how about just let the IC's player wobble up to 200% or so, then be forced to release the opponent?



EDIT: I'll quickly address the arguments in the OP for pro-ban:

1) Ban:
Reneblade "Their grab game is fine without wobbling." Marth's grab game is fine without chaingrabs. Let's ban them!
Lovage "Wobblings for noobs." And professional tournament winners.
Joe_Sumo "Used to play with a guy who didnt even main ic's but would do pretty well on my falco just wobbling." I play with a guy who didn't main Sheik but would beat my G&W just chaingrabbing.
Vts "♪ Ban eventhough i main IC i see it as a cheap easy kill. ♪" So are Fox's shine gimps and shine combos.
P.C.Jona "No one wants to play a wobbler." No on wants to play a camper.
Bones0 "If the ICs had an otherwise worthless grab game, I might say allow it." See Reneblade's comment.
The Good Doctor "Normal CG's end, at least sometime." Yeah, with a kill, if the opponent is good enough. Wobbling isn't overpowered just because you can kill them at the end.
Mew 2 King "I hate wobblin." No u
Cjugs "Wobbling doesn't earn respect from me." Fox players don't earn respect from me, but I don't say ban him.

If you play Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, or Puff, then your character is gayer than wobbling. No johns.

 

[pockyD]

that's not a compromise either, that's just wobbling is legal

THERE IS ALREADY A RULE AGAINST STALLING

 

[Tee ay eye]

fun fact for people who still have this misconception:

wobbles didnt invent wobbling

that's not a compromise either, that's just wobbling is legal

THERE IS ALREADY A RULE AGAINST STALLING

is there really? lol, i haven't actually LOOKED at a rule set in so long ^__^

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

I think it's hard to argue that it's broken enough for a ban, but wobbling does kind of ruin lives and such LOL.

Basically a majority of the community will just have to hope every IC player runs into a Peach somewhere in the bracket LOL.

 

[Tee ay eye]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qna80MbcAAc#t=2m25s

Let's ban Marth's edgeguarding

 

[X1-12]

can we just agree that wobbling to stall is already banned because of the no excessive stalling rule?

 

[Deleted member]

Removed by Moderator

 

[Nintendude]

I don't get why stalling is being brought up so much. It's already well-established that using Wobbling to stall should be banned and nobody disagrees with that.

anti-wobbling side is failing miserably right now

 

[P.C. Jona]

imo

who cares leave it up to the t.o.

if you dont like the rules dont attend

end of discussion

its pointless to argue it anymore when we dont even decide what rules are going to go on in a tourney

the melee back room cant force rules

mlg cant force their rules on us

so screw it

 

[KirbyKaze]

This is how I see wobbling. Example: IC's vs Fox. IC's have 1 stock left, Fox has 3. IC mainer: Oh man, better wobble to take off his next 3 stocks. *wobbles next 3 stocks* *IC's win*

This example is horrible.

 

[john!]

that's not a compromise either, that's just wobbling is legal

THERE IS ALREADY A RULE AGAINST STALLING

I meant, they can't kill the opponent off of a wobble. They have to release them. Really I'd rather have nothing banned, but this seems like an easy compromise. It basically reduces wobbling to the level of a Sheik or Marth chaingrab.

 

[mastermoo420]

imo

who cares leave it up to the t.o.

if you dont like the rules dont attend

end of discussion

its pointless to argue it anymore when we dont even decide what rules are going to go on in a tourney

the melee back room cant force rules

mlg cant force their rules on us

so screw it

Exactly; It's ultimately up to the TO's, but the Melee community/MBR has to set a standard. Why do you think we've decided the current stage list? I mean, it's being debated right now, still, but there's a level of uniformity among the competitive smashers because a precedent and a norm has been set.

 

[pockyD]

imo

who cares leave it up to the t.o.

if you dont like the rules dont attend

end of discussion

its pointless to argue it anymore when we dont even decide what rules are going to go on in a tourney

the melee back room cant force rules

mlg cant force their rules on us

so screw it

why are you still here if you're so convinced that the conversation won't make a difference (which frankly i somewhat agree with, since anti-wobbling T.O.s typically didn't make their initial decision around logic anyway so they're unlikely to be won over)

The fact that it won't make a difference is really a problem in and of itself

I meant, they can't kill the opponent off of a wobble. They have to release them. Really I'd rather have nothing banned, but this seems like an easy compromise. It basically reduces wobbling to the level of a Sheik or Marth chaingrab.

But WHY does it need to be reduced at all?

Also if this were for whatever reason acceptable, this doesn't address the vast majority of the concerns about wobbling; in fact, i almost think that anti-wobblers would be more likely to accept a 'synced grab = death' rule where the victim runs off the edge than this 'compromise'

Why? The "arguments" people put forth against wobbling are lack of control, ability to put up damage they can't do otherwise, ease of use, etc... and this 'compromise' does nothing to address those hypothetical fears

Of course, in reality, most anti-wobblers are just mad about/afraid of potentially getting unglamourously *****

 

[KirbyKaze]

I meant, they can't kill the opponent off of a wobble. They have to release them. Really I'd rather have nothing banned, but this seems like an easy compromise. It basically reduces wobbling to the level of a Sheik or Marth chaingrab.

Wait so when Sheik D-throw Fairs Ganon at 90% offstage into an inescapable edgeguard, she's not technically killing him? Or when Ganon tries to stay onstage and she D-throw U-smashes him to KO off the roof, that's also not considered killing him?

Or when Mew2King does something like this or this, that's also not considered killing them?

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't get why stalling is being brought up so much. It's already well-established that using Wobbling to stall should be banned and nobody disagrees with that.

amusingly enough there's already a rule against stalling, so this isn't even an issue.

I meant, they can't kill the opponent off of a wobble. They have to release them. Really I'd rather have nothing banned, but this seems like an easy compromise. It basically reduces wobbling to the level of a Sheik or Marth chaingrab.

wtf....
sheik has ftilt -> fair or usmash at the end of her cgs
marth has fsmash, and edgeguard if necessary.
it's nothing like that

 

[john!]

Look, I'm only trying to appeal to the people who whine about wobbling, while still giving the IC's player a great grab combo. Don't hate me for trying to make wobbling legal in SOME way.

 

[Pi]

Bad players --------- Decent players ---------- Good players ------------ Great players ---------- Tourney winning players
------------------------------------------------------------IC's who know how to wobble

that's the farthest wobbling can carry IC's

 

[pockyD]

Look, I'm only trying to appeal to the people who whine about wobbling, while still giving the IC's player a great grab combo. Don't hate me for trying to make wobbling legal in SOME way.

Ban peach's dsmash, but only when there are two ICs on the screen

Don't hate! i'm just trying to keep it legal in SOME way!

a 'compromise' will just leave both sides unhappy

 

[KirbyKaze]

Look, I'm only trying to appeal to the people who whine about wobbling, while still giving the IC's player a great grab combo. Don't hate me for trying to make wobbling legal in SOME way.

You're proposing they get a "great grab combo" that doesn't kill.

So if the combo has no potential to kill or send them offstage because of your proposed limitations to make it "fair", why exactly is it a "great" grab combo? Sounds pretty average to me. Especially when you compare it to stuff like Sheik's B-throw gimps, Marth's CG, Sheik's CG, Puff's Rest, pretty much anything SS does to a WC space animal off a grab, and several other things.

 

[TheManaLord]

Wobbling is fine. Once you see more IC's in top 10's than other character there's a problem. In fact, nothing at all has really changed since wobbling became popular. Where's any kind of evidence to support a ban besides people being *****es? Oh there isn't any. Hahaha *******es!

 

[KAOSTAR]

at my tourneys I pick the stages and characters allowed to be played.

we really should "institutionalize" the rules. the community looks better that way.

 

[Pi]

Oh
Here's a compromise
If you wobble in a grab, you can't kill from that grab. You also can't go above 150% with the grab you wobbled in.

So you can grab & wobble someone up to 150 (or maybe 120 or something), but you have to release em and kill them with something else. And when I say release I mean give them full control of their character back.

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this please.

I'm just throwing this out there, personally I don't care one way or the other because people who can wobble still aren't taking tourneys with it, and high HIGH level players still manage wins over wobbling.

 

[pockyD]

did you just decide not to read the last 10-15 posts

 

[Pi]

did you just decide not to read the last 10-15 posts

Nobody addressed my proposal.

And when the thread digressed into a bunch of sarcastic posts I didn't see a need to dissect every one.

Also I'd like to know where you got your ego seeing as how you're only well known for forum posts, and in my book keyboard tech skill doesn't warrant ego's.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Nobody addressed my proposal.

And when the thread digressed into a bunch of sarcastic posts I didn't see a need to dissect every one.

I DIDN'T read it, but its dumb.

for anyone who isn't an idiot or a little whiney *****, its pretty simple.

as clear as night and day. only 1 choice makes sense.

 

[pockyD]

Nobody addressed my proposal.

And when the thread digressed into a bunch of sarcastic posts I didn't see a need to dissect every one.

Also I'd like to know where you got your ego seeing as how you're only well known for forum posts.

ok i'll humor you

Also i'm not aware of being well known at all.

I come across as having an "ego" because I'm very confident when I argue for something that I feel I have put a lot of thought into, and it's almost disrespectful when others don't do the same by simply not reading a series of posts that have already taken place immediately before their request (many not made by me)

But in the end, I don't think you'll ever hear me say anything that suggests I'm a better player or person than anyone I'm disagreeing with; you're just interpreting what you want to interpret so you can dance around the actual argument

these are all from the past page...

I meant, they can't kill the opponent off of a wobble. They have to release them. Really I'd rather have nothing banned, but this seems like an easy compromise. It basically reduces wobbling to the level of a Sheik or Marth chaingrab.

But WHY does it need to be reduced at all?

Also if this were for whatever reason acceptable, this doesn't address the vast majority of the concerns about wobbling; in fact, i almost think that anti-wobblers would be more likely to accept a 'synced grab = death' rule where the victim runs off the edge than this 'compromise'

Why? The "arguments" people put forth against wobbling are lack of control, ability to put up damage they can't do otherwise, ease of use, etc... and this 'compromise' does nothing to address those hypothetical fears

Of course, in reality, most anti-wobblers are just mad about/afraid of potentially getting unglamourously *****

Wait so when Sheik D-throw Fairs Ganon at 90% offstage into an inescapable edgeguard, she's not technically killing him? Or when Ganon tries to stay onstage and she D-throw U-smashes him to KO off the roof, that's also not considered killing him?

Or when Mew2King does something like this or this, that's also not considered killing them?

wtf....
sheik has ftilt -> fair or usmash at the end of her cgs
marth has fsmash, and edgeguard if necessary.
it's nothing like that

Look, I'm only trying to appeal to the people who whine about wobbling, while still giving the IC's player a great grab combo. Don't hate me for trying to make wobbling legal in SOME way.

You're proposing they get a "great grab combo" that doesn't kill.

So if the combo has no potential to kill or send them offstage because of your proposed limitations to make it "fair", why exactly is it a "great" grab combo? Sounds pretty average to me. Especially when you compare it to stuff like Sheik's B-throw gimps, Marth's CG, Sheik's CG, Puff's Rest, pretty much anything SS does to a WC space animal off a grab, and several other things.

 

[CloneHat]

Can't they more or less kill off of dthrow dair? From what I've seen it's escapable, but not easily. It still usually racks up to killing percents.

 

[Zone]

i dont approve

to get grabbed at 0 by some random grab that took no skill is absurd

Just so you know... you won't get it to work at 0%, It's not that freaking hard to mash buttons to break out, just before it gets started. Atleast not if they are good and know that getting out of the grab is obviously more important than DI, when certain death is about to be inevitable.

and the climbers slide so much when their shield is attacked it's really hard to shield grab. So if you get shield grabbed you must be REALLY not spacing well. Cuz you'd have to aerial like kind of pass them so they can slide back then grab you as you continue to stay infront of them.

Also the jiggs rest and IC wobbling comparison. I know that jiggs messing up is a much larger punishment for jiggs than IC missing a grab. But Atleast jiggs doesn't lose her option to use her move, because either 1.) Nana is too far away, 2.) Nana is dead 3.) you're not high enough % to start wobbling right away.

with you people saying climbers should take a free damage if they miss a grab...

Well then jiggs should lose her rest move under weird circumstances like how ice climbers lose their ability to wobble in many situations.

I'm not a ice climber player, but I have to agree with wobbles.

Also at you people trying to say "Oh of course ice climbers players are going to protect wobbling."

Well that's stupid cuz you can reverse that back at you with "Oh of course people who don't main ice climbers want to ban it so their lives are easier.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Can't they more or less kill off of dthrow dair? From what I've seen it's escapable, but not easily. It still usually racks up to killing percents.

It doesn't work on a bunch of important, relevant characters like Fox, Marth, Peach, and Jigglypuff. It additionally can be SDIed by the characters it's supposed to work on (Falcon, etc.) and avoided.

 

[Charlesz]

wobbling has been banned at many tournaments for a long time.

peef opening his giant mouth shouldnt change anything.

wobbling banned, fun for all.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[john!]

I must've missed your post kniht, sorry. I said basically the same thing after you did. Since wobbling is generally banned now, and there's been arguing about it for years, keeping it a black and white issue probably isn't going to get the pro-wobblers anywhere. The best way to get it widely accepted is to find a way to allow some kind of limited wobbling, and start from there. Baby steps, son.

 

[Toesrus]

I know this may not be the best point out there, but I want to bring up Brawl ICs.

As you probably know, Brawl ICs have inescapable infinite chaingrabs on almost, if not, every character in the game. At first these were considered to broken, but now not so much. You know why? PEOPLE ADAPTED. If the wobbling ban is lifted it might be pretty bad for maybe a year, but then people will learn the new matchup and learn to dodge grabs as best as they can.

In a year wobbling wouldn't be as big of a problem.

 

[Charlesz]

Hard to say, people get grabbed even if they try really hard not too.

 

[Vro]

I can't believe people are giving a defense to wobbling. The IC's are viable without wobbling.

 

[Zone]

Hard to say, people get grabbed even if they try really hard not too.

I almost want to say It's a lot harder to grab with Ice climbers (With both climbers present and ready to wobble), than it is to avoid being grabbed. At least that's how I feel. Playing as them in friendlies(I play them pretty well, but I wouldn't label myself a IC player.) vs me playing against Ice climbers and avoiding their grabs.

I guess all I'm saying is, it's not so easy that you can just spam grab at times you think you can get it off and win. You still need to use your whole arsenal of moves to get them scared of other things like up-air, down smash ect, so a situation in which you can land a grab will finally arise. You can't win with wobbling alone.

 

[Pi]

ok i'll humor you

Also i'm not aware of being well known at all.

I come across as having an "ego" because I'm very confident when I argue for something that I feel I have put a lot of thought into, and it's almost disrespectful when others don't do the same by simply not reading a series of posts that have already taken place immediately before their request (many not made by me)

But in the end, I don't think you'll ever hear me say anything that suggests I'm a better player or person than anyone I'm disagreeing with; you're just interpreting what you want to interpret so you can dance around the actual argument

these are all from the past page...

Thanks for 'humoring' me (nice way to start a post)

Unfortunately your quotes of inaccurate generalizations hasn't exactly put forth any valid points. KK's links to old videos and comparisons of character to character specific grab games to the IC's wobbling on the whole cast are moderately relevant at best.

The fact is that at the highest level of play we are dealing with right now, wobbling is not game breaking, and is almost irrelevant in high end game play, I'll agree to this, and everyone else should as well. The only problem I see with wobbling is that it's a simple mechanic allowing for an easy, undeserving win, over an opponent who has not yet found the means to counter it.

I'm fully aware of how the above comes off, but when you have the pro-wobbling community ctrl+v'ing the same old response of 'don't get grabbed', and preaching time and time again that it's a non-issue at a high level of play, I don't see how anyone could feel they are deserving of a win via the use of wobbling.

If you wobble your opponent 4/4 stocks, then he sucks, but wobbling someone 4/4 stocks isn't going to make you a better player either. Banning wobbling has no overall negative effects on IC mains, nor does it on the smash community, because if ones goal is to become the best then you can't do it through the use of wobbling.

(yes I know 'having no negative effects' is not a valid pro-ban argument)

One way or the other I couldn't give two ****s about it, because whether or not I get kicked out of the tournament by an IC who wobbled me to victory, or a frame perfect fox player who overwhelmed me with tech skill, or a marth who gay'd the **** out of me with spaced moves, it doesn't matter because there are counters to these strategies. Find them and use them. And if you rely on wobbling to win you are never, ever, going to be the best. Enjoy the rhythmic sound of tapping A in mid placings. Why are you even playing the game ******?

I just can't fathom how low ones standards are that they could care one way or the other about whether or not this move is banned or legal. Neither side should give a **** because The best melee player will never be a wobbling IC.

 

[Zone]

I wouldn't say the best player will never be a wobbling IC player. But I would say if it happened. it's not because of wobbling alone.

 

[TheManaLord]

I can't believe people are not giving a defense to wobbling. The IC's are viable without wobbling, but there's no reason it should be banned.


see how that works?