Wobbling Compromise

[Roneblaster]

heres the only compromise im ok with:

wobbling = legal

but

ICs have to play on brinstar for their CP.

and this is only ok if their opponent is kage.

 

[Ballistics]

sooooooo like i said. its not a compromise. IC's wont CP you to brinstar.

Ice climbers have a harder time on a stage like brinstar than other characters so it really does end up helping them

 

[Roneblaster]

Ice climbers have a harder time on a stage like brinstar than other characters so it really does end up helping them

if the ice climbers were masochist, this would be true.

 

[Ballistics]

if the ice climbers were masochist, this would be true.

Edit: The Ice climbers have a harder time on a stage like brinstar than other characters, so the compromise previously stated ends up helping them

 

[Roneblaster]

helping who?

hard time = bad = not good = not helpful. so the exclusion of the possiblity is not a negative because it wasnt going to happen anyway. follow my logic?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Reneblade, read the compromise again. I think you don't understand it.

 

[Ballistics]

yea they have a hard time on brinstar, so if the other player can't pick brinstar, this benefits the ice climber

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

edit: can't read

 

[Strong Badam]

Vro, you actually have to use 2 hands to wobble. one to keep the stick forward or down in order to make nana tilt, and the other to press a, so whacking off during is out of the question...unfortunately

I always wobble with my feet so I can pull it out & get some work done.

 

[Roneblaster]

ok i mis-read it. this is what i get for arguing past my bed-time. (Johns)

also, you edited the OP the same minute i posted the extreme bias of that "compromise" so i probably didn't mis-read it, you just changed it im guessing.

anyway its still absurd because the IC lose very little and gain massively.

this "compromise" has to be defined.

only 5 tilts per grab or 5 tilts in a row. either way, still undeserved damage.

 

[Ballistics]

ok i mis-read it. this is what i get for arguing past my bed-time. (Johns)

also, you edited the OP the same minute i posted the extreme bias of that "compromise" so i probably didn't mis-read it, you just changed it im guessing.

anyway its still absurd because the IC lose very little and gain massively.

this "compromise" has to be defined.

only 5 tilts per grab or 5 tilts in a row. either way, still undeserved damage.

Im assuming that he meant 5 popo jabs along with 5 nana tilts, along with a finishing move so 11 hits in all

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

a compromise is unreasonable if you ask me

you either ban wobbling or leave it be. any middle ground, other than a very high percentage cap, would be close-to-impossible to enforce and just plain stupid and scrubby.

besides, what's the difference between four and five tilts? where exactly are you going to draw the line?

this whole issue is stupid and the only arguments put out against wobbling is that it looks boring and that it's "undeserved" damage

Both of those arguments are subjective and not even close to ban-worthy.

 

[Ballistics]

a compromise is unreasonable if you ask me

you either ban wobbling or leave it be. any middle ground, other than a very high percentage cap, would be close-to-impossible to enforce and just plain stupid and scrubby.

besides, what's the difference between four and five tilts? where exactly are you going to draw the line?

this whole issue is stupid and the only arguments put out against wobbling is that it looks boring and that it's "undeserved" damage

Both of those arguments are subjective and not even close to ban-worthy.

Oops I had you on pro ban, I fixed it, keeping a running total on OP btw guys.

 

[Roneblaster]

Im assuming that he meant 5 popo jabs along with 5 nana tilts, along with a finishing move so 11 hits in all

i promise you thats NOT what he meant.

what he meant was either: Semi-Wobbling is ok only once per grab OR 5 Tilts in a row is fine (maybe), then if you d-throw d-air you can semi wobble again. (probable, since this is what he does to me)

and the whole idea of a semi-wobble is a terrible compromise. ban it or not, dont insult me by saying semi-wobbling isnt wobbling.

 

[Pengie]

What exactly is stopping th Ice Climbers from doing something like d-throw --> dair -->regrab --> 5 more reps --> repeat with that "compromise"?

 

[Roneblaster]

thats what im saying. that isnt a compromise. thats making wobbling take longer, which no1 is in favor of. and if the only thing the IC's can do is 5 tilts then smash, it would be detrimental to "wobble"

edit

off to bed, have to be at work in a few hours.

i love this thread, thank you ballistics

 

[Ballistics]

^______^

Guess i'd better add something lol

To people suggesting a compromise:

Why are we taking something away from this character? What if they land a grab on Pokefloats, and by the time you finish the chain grab, they'd be able to tech one of the floats after the smash? They're not allowed to wobble until the float goes away? What if for some reason I really really hated the Water transformation on PS1. I'm not allowed to wobble until it returns to neutral? What if I finish my chain grab combo on Kongo 64, but the barrel would save him if I f-smashed him off the edge? I'm not allowed to wobble until the barrel would be on the other side when he recovers?

Compromises like "only 50% from wobbling" or something like that are dangerous, because there are almost always other, unconsidered factors that could come up. Things like dynamic stages could introduce situations where the ICs gain more than just extra damage from being allowed to wobble. To be honest, I don't like these kind of compromise rules - either ban it (which brings up the question of enforceability - one d-tilt? two d-tilts?) or let it be, and you avoid a lot of issues.

@OP: I really like the comparison to Jigglypuff's Rest btw. Good stuff.

Thanks man, I like what you have to say about enforceability, after all just banning wobbling is too vague of a ban. Are you not allowed to do any jab/tilt combination when you grab someone or just not allowed to do it 5 times? When we put these silly artificial rules in effect how is it any different than the silliness of an agreed upon compromise?

 

[ChivalRuse]

What exactly is stopping th Ice Climbers from doing something like d-throw --> dair -->regrab --> 5 more reps --> repeat with that "compromise"?

Nothing. But dthrow dair is escapeable (and doesn't even kind of work on half of the characters in this game).

Semi-wobbling is a form of wobbling that doesn't guarantee a KO at any percent. Rather, it deals a set amount of damage. Blizzard -> finisher already does about 25 percent. I can understand wobbling being banned, but there's nothing broken about being able to do 30-35% from a grab which half the time isn't even possible, because of Nana being unavailable.

 

[Ballistics]

thats what im saying. that isnt a compromise. thats making wobbling take longer, which no1 is in favor of. and if the only thing the IC's can do is 5 tilts then smash, it would be detrimental to "wobble"

edit

off to bed, have to be at work in a few hours.

i love this thread, thank you ballistics

Es de nada amigo. I want justice for my mistreated ice climber brothers, but what I'd rather have is a consolidated community. Let me just repeat PEEF! so that you can interpret it raw too :

"Wobbling compromise that I heard and like: (thats right, PEEF and compromise in the same sentence)

The wobble can only be 5 tilts, and the opponent can only CPs neutrals (unless the IC wants to go there of course).

This honestly I think is a quality compromise that I have heard several people support. It eliminates the ****ty-to-watch long *** wobbles. A 5 tilt wobble takes like 2 seconds, but it also eliminates ****ty-to-watch long *** campy rainbow cruise matches. Give a little, take a little. That's the way I like it =P

This rule will be used at POE4 whenever that happens."

Nothing. But dthrow dair is escapeable (and doesn't even kind of work on half of the characters in this game).

Semi-wobbling is a form of wobbling that doesn't guarantee a KO at any percent. Rather, it deals a set amount of damage. Blizzard -> finisher already does about 25 percent. I can understand wobbling being banned, but there's nothing broken about being able to do 30-35% from a grab which half the time isn't even possible, because of Nana being unavailable.

Well spoken

 

[theunabletable]

Can someone remind me of why we would ban a tactic that isn't overcentralizing at all?

 

[PEEF!]

For clarification:

MY WOBBLING COMPROMISE IS THIS:

Wobbling is legal by default.

The NON-IC player can either choose to leave it on, or they can ask the IC player if they would initiate PEEF's wobbling compromise. If they agree, the following compromise is in effect:

1: The IC player may only use a semi-wobble of 5 tilts (lasts 2 or 3 seconds) before they must throw/do something else.

2: The NON-IC player may not counterpick any non-neutral stage other than Pokemon Stadium (Unless the IC player agrees of course. This means the non-IC player may not CP Brinstar, KJ, or RC. The IC player still gets a stage ban.)

----------------------------

What the IC's lose: The ability to do a 0-death or low%-to-death wobble. The IC player must use only ESCAPEABLE, NON-INFINITE chaingrabs.

What the IC's gain: They may no longer be taken to a ******** stage to get timed out/projectile camped/whatever.

-----------------------------

What the NON-IC player loses: The ability to counterpick a wack stage like Brinstar or RC.

What the NON-IC player gains: The long-lasting, low% wobbles to death that are at the center of this controversy will be ILLEGAL.

------------------------------

What EVERYONE/THE SPECTATOR gains:
1) Spectators will not see long, boring wobbles deciding tourney matches.
2) Spectators will not see long, boring gay-stage timeouts centered around not getting wobbled in tourney matches.
3) This compromise encourages more creative, interesting, and fun-to-watch grab stuff from the ICs, and discourages campy boredom.

I think I made this pretty easy to understand, now we just need feedback.

 

[TemPesT-]

ice climbers are so full of drama. screw wobbles the phoenix for ever making it in the first place. man up and play real characters you ****** *******

 

[Wobbles]

I didn't make it.

Sorry I play a fictional character.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

tempest you are a brilliant troll

because you pissed me off hard with that post

 

[adumbrodeus]

homie...

metaknight is definitely the gayest character to ever be in smash

thats like melee jiggs ,fox,falco,marth,sheik and doc x10

but in brawl

"Gay" is a rather arbitrary standard.

why the **** are people comparing shine to wobbling?

there completely different things, at least after getting shined you actually HAVE options. after you get grabbed, there's no hope.

yes, i said it.

no /hope

Because it was funny, but regardless Fox's shine is more banworthy.

yeah you're definitely a scrub for wanting to ban metaknight

but let's not even get into that brawl ****

my point is that you're a scrub.

Pot, meet kettle. MK is powerful enough that whether or not he's banworthy is a relevant question and picking either side without saying "more evidence is required to make a decision" is scrubish.

up-throw knee = wobbling.

youre right, how could we be so blind.

auto combos = wobbling guys. lets all go home.

You're missing the point that he was trying to make, if it's an auto-combo, it's still an auto-combo, it's got the same effect in the game.

 

[KAOSTAR]

the only argument for anti wobbling is;

wobbling is hella gay, but undeserving of an actual ban. lets ban it.

there is no reason to make up rules that govern melee outside of the game, unless they protect the integrity of competitive play. unless you can prove a technique is OVERPOWERED not just good or unfavorable. It has to be nearly unbeatable. there are counter measures that can make it so that wobbling isn't even an option.

just play the MU correctly and stop johning. every competitive fighter follows these rules, but for some reason ppl lack the mental capacity to understand a very simple concept. wobbling could be broken, just prove it first.

saying things like IC do fine without it(while still only being slightly above mid level and underplayed) is what makes ppl look down on the smash community.

just grow up guys.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

rofl americans are so behind the times, still banning wobbling like a bunch of stupid scrubs.

 

[KAOSTAR]

rofl americans are so behind the times, still banning wobbling like a bunch of stupid scrubs.

I will say you have never had an IC to fear.

but either way I agree. best post you have made lol.

 

[Pengie]

rofl americans are so behind the times, still banning wobbling like a bunch of stupid scrubs.

I've been wondering for a while, does all of Europe allow wobbling at their tournaments or is it different from country to country?

 

[X1-12]

I've been wondering for a while, does all of Europe allow wobbling at their tournaments or is it different from country to country?

normally banned in UK

 

[Nintendude]

1. This is a VERY important point that certainly has to be addressed by the anti-wobbling side. During an ICs chaingrab it is actually a good idea to throw in 1 or 2 f-tilts in between grabs because you can easily do it without knocking the opponent out of the grab and it's faster than blizzard is. Some people refer to this as "semi-wobbling." Can this be considered wobbling? How do you know if the opponent was supposed to break out due to mashing but couldn't because the IC f-tilts happened to be perfectly synched like for Wobbling? All rules in Smash except for stalling avoid ambiguities like this.

Why have no anti-wobblers addressed this? You guys have no answer?

btw, I still disagree with the compromise because:
1. It is unnecessary. People have to stop being scrubs.
2. 5 tilts is such an arbitrary number. What happens if I lose sight of which of my A taps is corresponding to tilts and I do 6 by mistake? WHAT I GOT DQ'D BECAUSE I MADE A TECHNICAL ERROR?

Also, I don't think a specific percentage cap should be placed on Wobbling since it should be obvious when the player is attempting to stall out the timer. What if you get a grab in the pit on the rock part of Pokemon Stadium? Obviously you are gonna want to wait for the stage to transform, which may mean Wobbling until 500%. There should be nothing wrong with that.

 

[mastermoo420]

IIRC, 5 tilts isn't arbitrary because, by that time, all your other moves will have been refreshed. Also, I'm sure 6 or 7 wouldn't be TOO bad, but 5 is just to be an estimated limit. Plus, it shouldn't be hard to learn how to control how many tilts you're doing. P:

 

[P.C. Jona]

i hate ic's

 

[KAOSTAR]

IIRC, 5 tilts isn't arbitrary because, by that time, all your other moves will have been refreshed. Also, I'm sure 6 or 7 wouldn't be TOO bad, but 5 is just to be an estimated limit. Plus, it shouldn't be hard to learn how to control how many tilts you're doing. P:

but then you have to be prepared to dq somebody for doing 8 tilts.

**** is dumb, just prove that there is a reason to ban it. based on facts and tournament. if you can do that every single pro wobbler would agree to ban it.

nobody say anything else unless you can prove wobbling is game breaking. if you can't prove it you can't ban it.

why isn't there a limit to how many times fox can shine somebody against the tree?

doesn't fox have the ability to infinite shine peach?

doesn't peach have perfect shield pressure?

can't marth Cg space animals to death

there are so many options out of grab that happen way more often in which you still end up dying.

you can argue that sheik can tech chase somebody to death as long as you don't mess up. I see wobbling as nothing more than a highly situational 0-death from a grab.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

smasher are mostly scrubs

those grab combos just happen to look better

 

[EPsilon933]

Are Ice Climbers with their wobbling a top tier character like Falco/Fox/Jigglypuff/Mart/Sheik? Nope. It's not a problem.

We don't need complicated and unenforceable rules to limit wobbling. At least, it doesn't need to be anything more than a 200% limit, because even at that percent Captain Falcon on Dreamland with smash DI won't survive an up smash at 200%. The stalling issue is easily taken care of.

But wobbling is so boring. And that's relevant? Go sing I'm on a boat.


And yes, I didn't read the last few pages of pointless complaining. Man up!

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I've been wondering for a while, does all of Europe allow wobbling at their tournaments or is it different from country to country?

depends on country and tournament organizer, but in sweden its banned pretty much all the time

 

[BigD!!!]

uthrow knee and wobbling are different because you get to DI the uthrow, causing the falcon to have to react, and except on yoshis uthrow knee usually doesnt kill outright if you DI the knee well

a lot of peoples reasons, on both sides, are beside the point of the argument. your friend who you normally **** can beat you with wobbling, that doesnt really matter. likewise, when people say "play to win when money is on the line", that is irrelevant because you cant do it when its illegal. obviously no harm in doing it when its legal, but this discussion isnt on the ethics of it, its on the legality of it.

 

[CloneHat]

I think you're getting Smash mixed up with real life.

 

[Ballistics]

uthrow knee and wobbling are different because you get to DI the uthrow, causing the falcon to have to react, and except on yoshis uthrow knee usually doesnt kill outright if you DI the knee well

a lot of peoples reasons, on both sides, are beside the point of the argument. your friend who you normally **** can beat you with wobbling, that doesnt really matter. likewise, when people say "play to win when money is on the line", that is irrelevant because you cant do it when its illegal. obviously no harm in doing it when its legal, but this discussion isnt on the ethics of it, its on the legality of it.

What makes it appear to seem illegal though?