Will we have Smash Ball activated as an item in the pro/competitive scene?

[Zauron]

Having large-scale tournaments for a new game is just asking to be upset by undiscovered broken factors. It's simply not a good practice when the population is still trying to figure out a competitive game. Within the first year of Melee, most of everything was "small scale." I would expect Brawl to follow the same path, so as to experiment and eventually develop out an MLG level ruleset. Metagames need to develop before the bigtime tournaments can exist and be actually taken seriously, which a lot of people don't seem to understand. For a game as variable as Smash, this takes at least a year of smaller, experimental tournaments. Even past that point, rulesets will still be changing.

One year is going to give us plenty of time to experiment with the tournament viability of the Smash Ball before large scale tournaments have a chance at appearing. If it is proven to be broken, we can be happy banning it knowing that it was actually proven to be broken, and not because of paranoia that was arbitrarily untested.

We might as well be discussing if Brawl will be as tournament viable as Melee, which is far from perfect.

Good point and well said. This makes a lot of sense! Hold off on the big tourneys until everyone has had enough time to get skilled at small-time events and people have a better idea of what rules they like. A year sounds about right. This would settle the debate here much better than anything anyone says in this thread with our current knowledge level.

Comparing Smash to turn-based strategy games like Poker and Magic is dumb...

I didn't compare these to Smash. I was asked to name other games that are played at the tournament level with large amounts of money on the line that have random factors. These are games I thought of off the top of my head. I didn't say they were at all similar to Smash other than those paramaters - that they have tournaments with money on the line and that they have random factors. That's all. Not a key point in my arguments.

All right, I think RyokoYaksa said all that really needed to be said. I'm done. Happy holidays!

 

[MookieRah]

Ryoko basically ended the debate, because everyone was for testing and I was pro testing on the small scale so based off of what he said (which is pretty much true, but it may not be a year, perhaps 6-7 months at the earliest) we'd know VERY well before any large tournament how to handle these things.

Still there are still a few things I'd like to address:

Yeah, like Peach's FS which is way overpowered according to many at first. Oh wait, its not.

LOL, people thought it was broke till E for All when they discovered it wasn't as great as it sounded on paper. Every final smash I mention, with the exception of Dede's, was based off of the demo. I never once even mentioned that Peach's FS was one of the good ones, cause obviously it's very situational and not that good overall. You see, all of my opinions are pretty much backed by evidence. I'm aware that things could change from the demo, but this is all based on current information. It's also not likely that the FS's will be altered in any drastic way, so it's a safe bet that they will remain virtually the same.

There's a good chance that the crappy FS's may turn out to be much better than it seems now once we see more practical uses for them, and the great ones may be less effective than they currently seem when used against people that know what they are doing.

Um, I'm not so sure about the ones I listed, here is why:

Bowser:
Bowser's is just straight up insane, there is no way around this one, because it just makes Bowser ****ing ridiculous for a short period of time. This is based on the person playing it, so it will always be on top.

Sonic:
Debatably better than Bowser's. The only way anyone figured out to not get hit by it is to clank with it and be really good at dodging, but if Sonic gets you off the ledge it's gg. This too, is also controlled by the player, so given some tricks it will pretty much be a KO if you hit them once by Sonic pretty much anywhere.

Pit:
He summons dudes to come out and hit you, meanwhile he is free to do what he always does. Basically this can give him ample opportunities for setting stuff up, and like the others on this list it is within the control of the player to do stuff.

Dede:
Pretty much the same as Pit's except they come at you seemingly from the ground. Notice this is the only one I speculate on as to being good.

These are all pretty much good to go as soon as you get the smashball, and the only one I could see conceptually getting around is Sonic's and that is only on the ground. It would be impossible to consistently get around Sonic's FS off the ledge though, so it's still a pretty **** good one regardless.

but until we have WAY more playtime under our belt, there's no way to say for sure which tier list will have the least number of outlyers - one with FS's included or the one without.

I still stand by the fact that it won't take us very long to figure out if FS's are good or not. You can fight it all you want, but if they are anything like the demo they are just straight up not good for tournaments.

 

[The Noob Legend]

If by the Smash Ball you mean the ONLY item, then YES.

This would be a legit choice.

 

[M.K]

I'd just like to point out that, while Smash Balls/Final Smashes CAN be avoided, missed, or countered, so can every other item, so that isn't really a valid argument.

I'm not really taking either side, just saying a neutral point. Tell me what you think about it!

(Heh, I guess I'm just waiting for MookieRah to comment, because I love reading your posts)

 

[The Hypnotist]

Smash Balls from what I see are pretty random. They appear randomly. Float randomly (no predetermined path in the x or y axis or fixed speed). React to hits randomly (they stay or go away. not only that, they go in different speeds if they do move after getting hit. Probably due to hits having no effect on them except when they open and the random flight path of the FSes) It even seems to be random when it breaks open (probably not, but two partial link up b spins and a mario ftilt compared to some of the other times it took to get a smash ball was unusually easy to break damage wise. See Mario FS in gameplay section to see what I am talking about).

The FSes are really imbalanced right now with Wario, Bowser, Pit, Lucas, and ICs having ones that can just be activated with no consequences and some of them are automatic stocks off while others need to be setup or plain crappy. To add on that, the characters that suck without FS still might have a sucky FS. There is no logic of balance in anyway imaginable.

So based on the information now, no, they don't look tourney viable. Later on with modifications from Sakurai or overlooked details, maybe so they will be tested out one way or another. I don't know how you can argue that they look tourney vaible right now.

And of course Jason, I provide the InF0z!!!11!1

I agree, not to mention... that pity final smash.

 

[MookieRah]

Smash Balls/Final Smashes CAN be avoided, missed, or countered, so can every other item, so that isn't really a valid argument.

Really now. Counter Giga Bowser for me. Counter Pit chasing after your *** while you try to dodge 20 or so clowns flying around targeting you. I'm thinking that it would be near impossible to be good enough to consistently avoid those, yet a lot of other FS's are somewhat easy to avoid in the long run, at least by comparison.

Also, just because they possibly could be *countered* it doesn't make it fair in any way if they spawn in a place that your opponent has easy access too. It's just simply not fair. One can say "well life isn't fair" but **** that, this is a game, and we should limit as much bull**** as possible to determine the winner. Yeah, if someone picked up a bomb there is a chance I could get it from him, but it's not cool that he somehow got it before I did given that a lot of times it will spawn closer to one person than another.

He didn't build up a bar with his shield that spawned an item for him as a counter to my offense or anything like that, it's all random. It's very possible that the overall randomness evens out for both players over the course of a set, but it's also possible for one person getting screwed too.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

What was the first "large" Melee tournament, anyway? I put a year after release as a safe zne, but I'm pretty sure stuff like Tournament GO and Smash 4 Cash didn't appear until like 2003-2004. My first big tournament was Smash 4 Cash, which I believe was June-July 2004.

We're definitely going to need more than 6 months for large tournaments to happen, though. Most large, professional venues that I know of need several months of advance just to be reserved for a date. Furthermore, the game needs to be considered acceptable enough so that a large enough group of people (or even an organization, such as MLG) will recognize it as a well-played, competitive game. This takes time, and I'm not just talking about the amount of time it takes to decide the bans on levels, items, Smash Balls, and character-specific techniques/exploits. We have tournament experience with Melee to build upon, but it really only gets you so far due to the amount of new content (ie. virtually everything) that requires thorough experimentation.

 

[MookieRah]

What was the first "large" Melee tournament, anyway? I put a year after release as a safe zne, but I'm pretty sure stuff like Tournament GO and Smash 4 Cash didn't appear until like 2003-2004. My first big tournament was Smash 4 Cash, which I believe was June-July 2004.

I'm pretty sure it was 2003'ish for the first Tournament GO, although it might have been late 2002. It would be easy to figure out though.

I would like to point out that Smash wasn't really big until then, that's when the scene actually first came together. Now we already have a scene, so that means we have tons of people playing, a site that is very organized, and a centralized place to talk about our discoveries. Information is going to be coming from everywhere and things will progress much faster for Brawl than it did for Melee.

 

[M.K]

Really now. Counter Giga Bowser for me. Counter Pit chasing after your *** while you try to dodge 20 or so clowns flying around targeting you. I'm thinking that it would be near impossible to be good enough to consistently avoid those, yet a lot of other FS's are somewhat easy to avoid in the long run, at least by comparison.

Also, just because they possibly could be *countered* it doesn't make it fair in any way if they spawn in a place that your opponent has easy access too. It's just simply not fair. One can say "well life isn't fair" but **** that, this is a game, and we should limit as much bull**** as possible to determine the winner. Yeah, if someone picked up a bomb there is a chance I could get it from him, but it's not cool that he somehow got it before I did given that a lot of times it will spawn closer to one person than another.

He didn't build up a bar with his shield that spawned an item for him as a counter to my offense or anything like that, it's all random. It's very possible that the overall randomness evens out for both players over the course of a set, but it's also possible for one person getting screwed too.

Ehh, that wasn't really the point I was trying to make, I was actually more AGAINST Smash Balls in Competitive Scenes. For the people who were all "Smash Balls give your character a cool new move, but they can be avoided, so they should be used in the competitive scene", I was just pointing out that it doesn't really MATTER that they can be avoided, it's the fact that it is AS RANDOM as any other item that holds it back. I see where you are coming from, but one suggestion...the word "or" seperates different possibilites from each other, and of course you cannot COUNTER Giga Bowser, you can AVOID him. Examples? New Pork City's vastness allows a quick getaway, Skillful and incredibly lucky dodges increases the chance you can pass him, and (if available) a small passage to crawl into while Big Ol' Bowser pummels away. Of course, I'm not taking into account the items that can be utilized, but saying the word "item" in a thread such as this is digging my own grave. You could be a little more polite (but whatever).

 

[MookieRah]

Sorry from jumping on you like that, I thought you were in favor of FS from what you said. I was only upset by it because most people don't even address the stuff I'm saying about some of the obvious problems, and it's frustrating that they tell me that I'm dumb, close-minded, uninformed, and/or whatever they decide to toss at me.

From what I can tell, there aren't that many people who have really sat down and thought about these things, and they just run around reading stuff somebody else said, agrees with it, and uses their argument instead of forming one of their own. I know that my opinion on the matter is unpopular, but for me and many others who don't want to risk their neck for backing it, it's fairly obvious where FS is headed.

So yeah, being labeled all these things after putting in a good deal of thought behind it by people who don't even have their own opinions worked out kinda riles me up a bit. Especially seeing that everyone, even those that disagree with me, should be smart enough to at least acknowledge the stuff I have said. This "oh we don't have info so we can't say anything" thing is crap, because we do have information and I've outlined many examples of FS sucking for tournament play.

 

[M.K]

Mmhmm, it's fine. I don't blame you.

People should just man (or woman) up, and face the real facts. I love Final Smashes, and I will certainly play with them. Then again, I'm not in the competitive scene, and I probably will never be, so to those who will be, I'm sorry.

 

[Naota21t]

I believe the only way for us to decide if the smash ball should be activated as an item when it comes to the competitive scene is to allow it at the beginning, and then later on see how it effects the outcome of the matches its involved in. If people begin to notice that it gives really large advantages to certain characters (the ones whom have the better final smashes, and the characters capable of reaching the smash ball faster then others), then we'll begin to see the smash ball slowly phased out of the competitive scene.

But it should be allowed to begin with, because to just disallow it without really knowing how big of an effect it can have on matches would be ignorant. Especially since the whole idea of the smash ball is a big factor of this new smash game. This is Brawl, not Melee, so we have to look at it from a different angle.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I would like to point out that Smash wasn't really big until then, that's when the scene actually first came together. Now we already have a scene, so that means we have tons of people playing, a site that is very organized, and a centralized place to talk about our discoveries. Information is going to be coming from everywhere and things will progress much faster for Brawl than it did for Melee.

/shrug

While it's true that the success of Melee and the widespread playablity of Brawl will result in more players and more incoming information, the truth is that, in practice, this doesn't necessarily result in faster tournament rule development unless more tournaments are happening where this information can be applied in the desired setting (woah sentence).

There will still be a divide between casuals and competitors (that is, a good deal of the fanbase won't exactly contribute to the competitive side of things), and it will not be known how a potentially broken aspect will affect a tournament setting unless it was proven in tournament where it can be simultaneously used against multiple players and characters. Most of the broken aspects Melee that were later banned were kept tight-lipped until exploited in tournament settings, where they were effectively put on trial. This is the nature of any competitive game, no matter how many people happen to be playing it.

Example: Melee had plenty of players when the first tournaments were happening, and this was when many of the levels were set to random selection and all levels were viable for counterpicking. Yoshi's Story 64, Brinstar Depths, and Hyrule Temple for example were counterpickable (sometimes random).

We may know better about such levels now, but the basis of certain stage bans were that particular characters (Fox) were able to hardcore exploit their designs. Some levels that were obviously ******** (Brinstar Depths, Big Blue) were more quickly banned from play on a much more general basis. The fact remains that many levels weren't banned until good players using good characters actually put them to use - in tournament. And this is a new game with very different characters and settings... I kinda hate having to say it, but it's relevant.

So since the predominant reason of level banning was character vs. character, I feel that Smash Balls should not be immediately counted out because they can be balanced for character vs. character (or at least provide a very different strategic experience). Or they could be imbalanced... we don't know yet. Our experience with FSs (both in obtainment and execution) have only scratched the tip of the iceberg, which is why they at least deserve a chance. Items provide this too, but it has been proven that they are too random in occurence and consequence. Smash Balls are much different in that they were only truly "free" in the form of a Pity FS at E for All. Any other time, they will hang around a while and both players have the option of fighting for it.

This talk about the Smash Ball is still all theoretical, and should just be played before anyone is taken seriously.

 

[MookieRah]

But it should be allowed to begin with, because to just disallow it without really knowing how big of an effect it can have on matches would be ignorant. Especially since the whole idea of the smash ball is a big factor of this new smash game.

You know that nobody is disagreeing with this right?

This is Brawl, not Melee, so we have to look at it from a different angle.

Yay, a "this is a new game" argument. Yeah, it's apparent it's not Melee, and I don't know of any intelligent person that thinks that way. My points still stand, and just cause "Brawl is a new game" it doesn't mean that a lot of the additions are good for the tournament scene.

 

[Naota21t]

Yay, a "this is a new game" argument. Yeah, it's apparent it's not Melee, and I don't know of any intelligent person that thinks that way. My points still stand, and just cause "Brawl is a new game" it doesn't mean that a lot of the additions are good for the tournament scene.

Yea, I'm not saying the addition is going to be good, but a lot of people are assuming that the addition of items (aka Smash Ball) are going to just randomize the results of matches too much.

 

[MookieRah]

this doesn't necessarily result in faster tournament rule development unless more tournaments are happening where this information can be applied in the desired setting (woah sentence).

Well it's a lot more likely. A lot of the reason it took so long with melee was because there were a lot less people aware of the smashboards, and it took a while to get everything organized. The fact is there will be plenty of smashfests and small tournaments occurring like WILD FIRE the moment this game comes out, and this time around everybody knows each other! Not to say there won't be new faces, but the existing people will be able to easily set some events up very fast and the information and results will just come pouring in.

There will still be a divide between casuals and competitors

LOL, there is already a divide. If the casuals want to influence things with the scene they should step up and join it, make arguments for what they believe in, and all in all be a part of the scene. If not then they have no say in how things should be ran.

unless it was proven in tournament where it can be simultaneously used against multiple players and characters

Yeah, this is bound to happen. I'm hoping smashfests have both standard tournaments and FS tournaments just so we can see how character choice and overall rankings differ. Since it is a smashfest it shouldn't really be all that much about money, so people won't mind the bit of randomness of FS in order to get good info on it.

Contrary to what people would think, I think FS's will be fun as **** and I will enjoy it. Not only that I am more than likely going to main Sonic, who has a pretty badass FS. I'm just able to look at it from a different standpoint and realize they just aren't very good for tournaments based on what we know. I wish more people would divide their feelings of what is "fun" and what is good for tournaments.

We may know better about such levels now, but the basis of certain stage bans were that particular characters (Fox) were able to hardcore exploit their designs.

We learn from history. We know what to look for in stage bans now. I for one am going to try and break the game as much as possible. Why? Cause I may win some money out of it and show people they need to make a new rule or ban a stage. I know I'm not the only one looking to exploit the hell out of the early system XD. I feel that it's only appropriate, seeing as how I played with Mewtwo for a long *** time. REVENGE *****ES!

Smash Balls that were truly "free" in the grand scheme of things didn't happen aside from the pity FS at E for All.

Well they aren't free, but they are random, and cause of that even with being as skilled as possible things could tilt in your opponents favor because of something completely outside of your own abilities. On top of that the risk/reward is ****ed. Why? I say this mainly cause FS's can be knocked out of you. If you couldn't, one with a bad FS would be able to nab it away from someone with a good FS, and still be able to use theirs no matter how situational it is more often than not. It would be something everyone wanted. As it stands, people with ****ty FS's would benefit more by just beating the **** out of their opponent while they tried to get it, cause even if they got it they probably wouldn't be able to use it and it has a good chance it would get stolen in the first place. That wouldn't be so bad, if some of the FS's weren't so overpowered, cause I think they would even out a bit, but the fact that Sonic, Bowser, Pit, and others have incredible FS's means that it's almost a stock off if they get it, and more than likely you won't be able to take a stock off by camping the smash ball.

but a lot of people are assuming that the addition of items (aka Smash Ball) are going to just randomize the results of matches too much.

A lot of the people that assume are doing it out of not wanting them. Meanwhile, some of us have developed well thought out reasons as to why we are against them. Everyone throws our ideas out the window though, cause pretty much everyone is really optimistic.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I had to edit my post with several post-click thoughts.
No bigee about our disagreement here, I still think you're sexy, Mookie.

 

[MookieRah]

No bigee about our disagreement here, I still think you're sexy, Mookie.

:-P, ditto. I think things will work out for the betterment of all. I just think that things will progress faster than most people think is all. I think that is the main disagreement I have had with you and Yeroc, and time isn't that big of an issue to be honest.

I was very happy to debate with people with very intelligent opinions that have been around in the scene for a long time though! That very very rarely happens back here.

 

[Sliq]

I only want to counter with the personal testimony that I've lost at least a dozen matches to stitchfaces that I otherwise would have probably won.

Also, different, doesn't always mean, worse.

Edit: Iggy would like to disagree with you. Total turnaround gained by nothing more than a lucky turnip pull at about 3 minutes.

Hey, you're right! From now on, G & W, Peach, and Luigi are now all banned from tournaments. Casuals will love this decision, because now there is absolutely no randomness! Man, Yeroc, you are so wise!

 

[Endless Nightmares]

No .

 

[Yeroc]

Sliq, I have nothing to say to you.

 

[clowsui]

Bumping this thread so that we don't get any more topics about it -_-

 

[slimpyman]

items i suppose are where the vast amounts of strategies will be involved, including smash balls.

 

[YoYoBoY]

Smash Balls, though an awesome concept, are completely detrimental to competitive play.
When a Smash Ball appears, the pace of the game completely changes. Instead of fighting each other, the players now fight simply for the Smash Ball. And getting the Smash Ball results in an instant kill for most characters. Therefore, the game becomes "chase a ball and win" which relies on very little skill. Players can hide out and steal the smash ball at the last hit.

People will argue that Final Smashes are, indeed, avoidable. It's too bad they aren't. Sure, you can avoid them - but a smart, competitive player will hold on to the smash ball until their opponent goes on the offensive. Because Smash Ball activation is essentially instant, once the opponent moves toward the character with the FS, they can simply activate it and get a free kill. The player without the Smash Ball is essentially at the whim of their opponent. All they can do is play defense and attempt to get away from the FS when it's activated. This makes Brawl even slower than it already is.

Kills should be earned through combos and wise mindgames, not by overpowered attacks.

 

[Mr.C]

Items will never be used in the high-level tournament scene. Although I think the first few high level tourneys MIGHT try out Smash Balls, it will be short lived.

Personally I think it would be really fun having Smash balls on....it would add a lot of flavor to the smash scene. And besides the random factor, yes thats bad and of course as a competitive player we try to eliminate as much random factors as we can...but there are also instances that if the Smash Ball spawns you can punish the person going for it etc. Id imagine for the most part when a SB spawns most competitive players wouldn't even go for it because the risk factor.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Smash Balls are the most broken item in the game (they're hella fun though).

Have you compared Marth's Final Smash to... like any other Final Smash?

 

[Gea]

All of MookieRah's posts.

I must say, this is my first post in this specific topic but ZOMG someone who uses logic! I've been trying to say the same things in other threads and whatnot...

I do advocate everyone trying final smashes on their own time, but wow, if you do and still feel they should be legal, come argue it. Though realize that you might not get your way... as some of us arguing against them have played against them.

Ugh. Flashy as hell, but broken as hell. Too random based on spawning, and while in theory some can be avoided, in practice you rarely can.

 

[LaughterIsDeadly]

Are the FSes perhaps to unbalanced? For example bowser's is GG 2 stock and dks is worthless

 

[Pi]

Spoiler

At 53 pages this has probably been said already in some form or another

How can anyone even argue that smash balls should be used at tournaments any more? Have they been living under a rock? Or maybe in a world they created in which they blot out the obvious unbalances of FS's. Who knows.

I'd wager that no one arguing for SB's uses in tournaments has actually been at a tournament, or if they have have not done well and had no intention of doing well. If you're arguing for the use of SB's in tourny's you probably don't care much about the outcome of the tourny, in which case I don't see room for your opinion to affect how they are put together, seeing as how you don't care and you're just playing for fun.


They ARE unbalanced, and they ARE random and in case you haven't noticed Melee tournaments are based as much off of skill as we can get, why should brawl be any different. You wanna play with smash balls on? Then do it in friendly s, widely accepted tournaments will NOT use smash balls for GOOD reasons. It just doesn't fit into the mold.

 

[RedMage8BT]

I wouldn't be surprised if Marth's Final Smash could OHKO Giga Bowser. The sheer power of it is insane...

 

[Norm]

I cant see it being aloud in Tournaments they useually try to get rid of things that provide an advantage or lead to an unintentional Ko hence why mazard stages are banned and items because bo-ombs and ect... also provide hazards that players have to avoid when they would rather just have a good match with out hazards that the players have to avoid.

 

[suzuki brawl]

we can have tournaments with smash balls and other without it in my opinion that's the best choice

 

[Rogueleader89]

Smash balls will not be allowed in competitive play, first of all they are far too random.

Secondly, they are completely unbalanced, some characters *cough*marth*cough* have amazingly good final smashes that will absolutely kill an opponent, while others such as jigglypuff have FSs that do almost nothing in most scenarios. Additionally some are avoidable while others are not (olimar's can not be avoided to my knowledge).

So no, giving some characters an advantage over others seems a bit unfair, why should I (a hypothetical jigglypuff player; I actually plan to main Pit, Olimar, or sonic by the way) have to fight u (a hypothetical marth player) for a smash ball that will do nothing to help me in defeating u, yet if I don't get it u will more than likely kill me?

 

[Ichida]

It's definitely a crowdpleaser. I'd say they should be, if all other items are to be disallowed. >.<

 

[Kyldare]

That's not the only reason they're banned. >_>
The Smash Ball looks kind of unbalanced to me. You get some good attacks like Samus's laser and some pretty lame ones like Sonic's super saiyan thingie.

Edit: Oh dear... team attack on...

I agree here, the Final Smash's for each character are highly varied, and accrued mainly thtough luck, not skill. The reason there should be no smash balls in tournament play, is that tournament matches are 99% skill and 1% luck. Any uncontrollable facet of a match that takes the skill factor out of the match should not be included in tourneys.

 

[Miller]

Smash Balls are the most broken item in the game (they're hella fun though).

Have you compared Marth's Final Smash to... like any other Final Smash?

Hahaha that made me laugh. Its so true, Marth's FS is so cheap. And you cant avoid it. It's instantaneous.

 

[cccck]

Hahaha that made me laugh. Its so true, Marth's FS is so cheap. And you cant avoid it. It's instantaneous.

Really? I heard you can avoid it... I thought I saw some one doge it...

 

[D.A.N.]

You can dodge Marth's FS. He can blaze off the stage or KO himself, but it's too fast to dodge consistently.

As said before the FSes aren't balanced enough to be involved with the true competitive aspect of the game.

 

[webrunner]

With most items, whoever gets to it first gets it.

With Smash Balls, whoever lands the last hit gets it. In virtually all situations I've seen, both players have an equal chance of getting it.

Also, one has to consider the final smashes -in concert- with the rest of the moves the character has. A character with below-average ability but an above-average final smash is balanced by having that smash.

There's also a lot of misconceptions about which FSmashes are better than others- so I think a lot of the debate should be left until the game is out in North America.

I've heard some FSmashes called worthless by some people and godlike by others. Marth's doesnt have infinite range, can be dodged, and can SD, it's one of the few FSmashes that can SD if you use it improperly. Link doesn't dash if he doesn't have a target, but Marth does.


I would like to see some smash-ball-only pro player fights, just to see how it works.

 

[brawl1994]

I think it should be in tournaments because sakuari said "I guess you could call this balancing the gameplay, huh?" in olimar's final smash, and we want balanced gameplay, correct?

I also think it should be in because each character has an equal chance of getting the smash ball.