Will we have Smash Ball activated as an item in the pro/competitive scene?

[darkatma]

Wait, the first post isnt even valid anymore.
we KNOW that you can start as zero suit by merely clicking on zamus first.

The one undeniable problem currently is that if Zamus can not be a startable character, her professional tournament fate is tied with the Smash Ball in/out.

that^ doesn't apply anymore, so there's really no reason to play in tournies with final smashes.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Smash balls seem to just mess up things in tournament matches. I'd gladly play friendlies with Smash balls on, heck even money matches! But not tournament matches.

 

[Thedude3445]

Ah, just SHUT UP! You know that's what the guys in the Backroom decide, so don't worry about it! What I'm frustrated about is all of these n00bs coming on and saying, "uhh no we tournie peple dont use finl smahez!" The game's not even out, so you can't know more than what you've seen in videos! Sakurai has a sense of balance, so there is some reason for Marth's FS being so good! Just don't make decisions so soon!

 

[Team Giza]

EDIT: TOURNAMENT MATCH WITH SMASH BALL ON: http://youtube.com/watch?v=BVjkkolsJl8

They're bad. Please turn them off.

What about them makes this match bad and need to be turned off? I see nothing here that even makes me come to think they would be a bad thing to have.

 

[F@lc0-san]

A friend of ours GREATLY suprised us by bringing Brawl over with a Wii, naturally we were excited as hell.

We decided to do a mini tourny with the 7 of us, and Smash Balls would be on. I really can say that these should be turned OFF in a tourney.

Some characters just have WAY too much trouble opening one, and some(Hi Ike) can open em in ONE HIT.

Then we have the different powers, Marths FS is just imba and not fun, Falco's can take 2 stocks easily, Ness and Lucas's can be avoided with ease.

The Smash Balls are just not tourny viable IMO

EDIT: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4RqYadfD_E
o to to
Match between 2 of my friends

 

[Libomasus]

Smashballs are really just unnecessary. They could help balance out characters, but it doesn't really seem worth proving.

I'd leave them off. Even if they weren't random, I wouldn't want to see players camping by spawn points. Whether they add more skill and strategy to a match I don't know, but so far there just doesn't seem to be much reason to keep them.

 

[Yuna]

No, one thousand times no.

Not only is it random, it's also unbalanced. Ever seen Peach's Final Smash? That's right, they fall asleep! But only if they're on the ground!

Zelda's and Sheik's FS:es can be dodged (easily).

Meanwhile, we have almost guaranteed KO FS:es like Sonic's. And then there's Marth's, Link's and Toon Link's which are not only (unblockable) One Hit KO's but also easily combod into!

Not to mention that FS:es can be saved. They don't have to be used right away and the only thing they prevent you from doing while holding them is using your normal B attack. For a quasi-large number of the cast, holding the Smash Ball means that the opponent is unable to come close to you unless they wanna get hit by some unblockable One Hit KO moves. While whoever holds the Smash Ball can approach and pressure without fearing much, the other opponent lives in constant fear of eating a FS, having to resort to running away and hoping to get in a lucky hit that will knock the Smash Ball out of them.

It's the ultimate Camping Tool.

It means that once, for instance, Marth, gets the Smash Ball, he's almost guaranteed to take off a stock if the player controlling him is any good. In contrast, there's Lucario's which is easily avoided by using all 3 jumps.

No, the Smash Ball is too imbalaced to be allowed in tournament play. We don't just ban items because of the exploding containers. We also ban them because they're random and imbalanced, both of which the Smash Ball is.

Let me try to break this down to you:
* This is a fighting game
* We're talking about competitive play (tournaments)
* The Smash Ball is random
* The Smash Ball gives certain characters One Hit KO-moves, some of which can be comboed into while giving others gimped ones that only dish out a little bit of damage or are easily dodgable

Imagine Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike/Guilty Gear XX Accent Core/Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection/Virtua Fighter 5. Now introduce to these games a randomly occuring event where you've receive a special Super Move. Some characters will receive one-hit-KO's, some of which can be comboed into. Others will simply dish out 15% of damage.

Sounds ludicrous? That's because it is ludicrous.

 

[F@lc0-san]

No, one thousand times no.

Not only is it random, it's also unbalanced. Ever seen Peach's Final Smash? That's right, they fall asleep! But only if they're on the ground!

Zelda's and Sheik's FS:es can be dodged (easily).

Meanwhile, we have almost guaranteed KO FS:es like Sonic's. And then there's Marth's, Link's and Toon Link's which are not only (unblockable) One Hit KO's but also easily combod into!

Not to mention that FS:es can be saved. They don't have to be used right away and the only thing they prevent you from doing while holding them is using your normal B attack. For a quasi-large number of the cast, holding the Smash Ball means that the opponent is unable to come close to you unless they wanna get hit by some unblockable One Hit KO moves.

It means that once, for instance, Marth, gets the Smash Ball, he's almost guaranteed to take off a stock if the player controlling him is any good. In contrast, there's Lucario's which is easily avoided by using all 3 jumps.

No, the Smash Ball is too imbalaced to be allowed in tournament play. We don't just ban items because of the exploding containers. We also ban them because they're random and imbalanced, both of which the Smash Ball is.

Indeed, they're extremeley FUN in just friendly matches tho, but for a tournament? No way.

 

[CasshernDGZ]

No, one thousand times no.

Not only is it random, it's also unbalanced. Ever seen Peach's Final Smash? That's right, they fall asleep! But only if they're on the ground!

Zelda's and Sheik's FS:es can be dodged (easily).

Meanwhile, we have almost guaranteed KO FS:es like Sonic's. And then there's Marth's, Link's and Toon Link's which are not only (unblockable) One Hit KO's but also easily combod into!

Not to mention that FS:es can be saved. They don't have to be used right away and the only thing they prevent you from doing while holding them is using your normal B attack. For a quasi-large number of the cast, holding the Smash Ball means that the opponent is unable to come close to you unless they wanna get hit by some unblockable One Hit KO moves. While whoever holds the Smash Ball can approach and pressure without fearing much, the other opponent lives in constant fear of eating a FS, having to resort to running away and hoping to get in a lucky hit that will knock the Smash Ball out of them.

It's the ultimate Camping Tool.

It means that once, for instance, Marth, gets the Smash Ball, he's almost guaranteed to take off a stock if the player controlling him is any good. In contrast, there's Lucario's which is easily avoided by using all 3 jumps.

No, the Smash Ball is too imbalaced to be allowed in tournament play. We don't just ban items because of the exploding containers. We also ban them because they're random and imbalanced, both of which the Smash Ball is.

Let me try to break this down to you:
* This is a fighting game
* We're talking about competitive play (tournaments)
* The Smash Ball is random
* The Smash Ball gives certain characters One Hit KO-moves, some of which can be comboed into while giving others gimped ones that only dish out a little bit of damage or are easily dodgable

Imagine Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike/Guilty Gear XX Accent Core/Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection/Virtua Fighter 5. Now introduce to these games a randomly occuring event where you've receive a special Super Move. Some characters will receive one-hit-KO's, some of which can be comboed into. Others will simply dish out 15% of damage.

Sounds ludicrous? That's because it is ludicrous.

I think that sums it up nicely ...

 

[Wizard99]

It's up to the back rooms, but personally I don't like the smash ball. Bowser already has Bowsercide and infinite jumps. Giving him Giga Bowser too would just be stupid...

 

[DrewB008]

guys its not up to the backroom, its up to the tourney hosts

the back room can suggest whatever they want, but they dont have any kind of final say on anything

also if final smashes are on i will consider this game even less competitively viable than i already do, theyre really dumb when you play with them

 

[Team Giza]

Not only is it random, it's also unbalanced. Ever seen Peach's Final Smash? That's right, they fall asleep! But only if they're on the ground!
Zelda's and Sheik's FS:es can be dodged (easily).
Meanwhile, we have almost guaranteed KO FS:es like Sonic's. And then there's Marth's, Link's and Toon Link's which are not only (unblockable) One Hit KO's but also easily combod into!

So... they are a little unbalanced what is the big deal here. Plus so far I haven't seen many people actively trying to find ways to avoid Final Smashes. A lot of things need to be tested before we just straight out say NO to them. Hell, a lot of the people I play Bloody Roar with wanted to turn off Hyper beast for matches but we kept them on and we ended up over coming the problems we thought they had.

Not to mention that FS:es can be saved. They don't have to be used right away and the only thing they prevent you from doing while holding them is using your normal B attack. For a quasi-large number of the cast, holding the Smash Ball means that the opponent is unable to come close to you unless they wanna get hit by some unblockable One Hit KO moves. While whoever holds the Smash Ball can approach and pressure without fearing much, the other opponent lives in constant fear of eating a FS, having to resort to running away and hoping to get in a lucky hit that will knock the Smash Ball out of them.

It's the ultimate Camping Tool.

Has anyone actively tried to find specific ways to approach characters effectively when the opponent is holding a smash ball? I don't think its good to get rid of things so early unless the community really tries to find ways to avoid these and cannot find anything after a long period of time.

It means that once, for instance, Marth, gets the Smash Ball, he's almost guaranteed to take off a stock if the player controlling him is any good. In contrast, there's Lucario's which is easily avoided by using all 3 jumps.

Doesn't Marth's FS have the potential of causing him to kill himself? Doesn't the smashball get knocked out of Marth with relatively weak attacks?

No, the Smash Ball is too imbalaced to be allowed in tournament play. We don't just ban items because of the exploding containers. We also ban them because they're random and imbalanced, both of which the Smash Ball is.

I don't think the randomness created by most items, including smash balls, is enough to really make a banning seem acceptable. There are plenty of games that are played in tournaments that have some random elements but they have survived as tournament games for years and years. Look at Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo, it is like the grandfather of fighting game tournaments and they still have tournaments for it 13 years after its release and it was random elements that are comparable to what items bring.

Let me try to break this down to you:
* This is a fighting game

Yes it is.

* We're talking about competitive play (tournaments)

So what?

* The Smash Ball is random

Like random grab damage in Super Turbo?

* The Smash Ball gives certain characters One Hit KO-moves, some of which can be comboed into while giving others gimped ones that only dish out a little bit of damage or are easily dodgable

First they need to break it, then they need to do this easy combo to make it effective. The others just don't have a good final smash... who cares? Doesn't seem like its something that is game breaking.

Imagine Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike/Guilty Gear XX Accent Core/Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection/Virtua Fighter 5. Now introduce to these games a randomly occuring event where you've receive a special Super Move. Some characters will receive one-hit-KO's, some of which can be comboed into. Others will simply dish out 15% of damage.

So we need to add exact stuff to games in order to make a comparison? So random effects and damage in Super Turbo don't hold up? I guess you think Super Turbo isn't tournament worthy?

Unbalanced stuff happens in games. Look at some of the supers in 3S, some are crazy good damage and short bars and good hit confirms while others have long bars almost no way to combo and doesn't do too good of damage.

Sounds ludicrous? That's because it is ludicrous.

Sounds a bit... but not enough.

 

[Mikezor]

After playing Brawl, I honestly think smash balls should not be allowed in tournaments. Some are clearly unbalanced (looks at Sonic).

 

[Endless Nightmares]

No, one thousand times no.

Not only is it random, it's also unbalanced. Ever seen Peach's Final Smash? That's right, they fall asleep! But only if they're on the ground!

Zelda's and Sheik's FS:es can be dodged (easily).

Meanwhile, we have almost guaranteed KO FS:es like Sonic's. And then there's Marth's, Link's and Toon Link's which are not only (unblockable) One Hit KO's but also easily combod into!

Not to mention that FS:es can be saved. They don't have to be used right away and the only thing they prevent you from doing while holding them is using your normal B attack. For a quasi-large number of the cast, holding the Smash Ball means that the opponent is unable to come close to you unless they wanna get hit by some unblockable One Hit KO moves. While whoever holds the Smash Ball can approach and pressure without fearing much, the other opponent lives in constant fear of eating a FS, having to resort to running away and hoping to get in a lucky hit that will knock the Smash Ball out of them.

It's the ultimate Camping Tool.

It means that once, for instance, Marth, gets the Smash Ball, he's almost guaranteed to take off a stock if the player controlling him is any good. In contrast, there's Lucario's which is easily avoided by using all 3 jumps.

No, the Smash Ball is too imbalaced to be allowed in tournament play. We don't just ban items because of the exploding containers. We also ban them because they're random and imbalanced, both of which the Smash Ball is.

Let me try to break this down to you:
* This is a fighting game
* We're talking about competitive play (tournaments)
* The Smash Ball is random
* The Smash Ball gives certain characters One Hit KO-moves, some of which can be comboed into while giving others gimped ones that only dish out a little bit of damage or are easily dodgable

Imagine Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike/Guilty Gear XX Accent Core/Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection/Virtua Fighter 5. Now introduce to these games a randomly occuring event where you've receive a special Super Move. Some characters will receive one-hit-KO's, some of which can be comboed into. Others will simply dish out 15% of damage.

Sounds ludicrous? That's because it is ludicrous.

Quoted for awesome truth.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

I can't see FS's appearing in teams... Friendly Fire all over the place.

Plus, its kind of unfair to characters who are slow... the fast one has a better chance of getting the smash ball before the slow one.

 

[Brightside6382]

You can't use the "Some chars final smashes are to good etc, etc, etc" excuse because like someone already stated before the same could be said about all special moves and smash attacks. Banning the item for that sole reason would be extremely hypocritical and I doubt any intelligent members of the community would disagree.

Now about the randomness? I haven't played the game so I can't talk about this. But I would like to think that the community would be smart enough to test the smash balls before they outright ban them.

 

[Yuna]

You can't use the "Some chars final smashes are to good etc, etc, etc" excuse because like someone already stated before the same could be said about all special moves and smash attacks. Banning the item for that sole reason would be extremely hypocritical and I doubt any intelligent members of the community would disagree.

Now about the randomness? I haven't played the game so I can't talk about this. But I would like to think that the community would be smart enough to test the smash balls before they outright ban them.

No it's not.

You know what happens when a character has so many moves they're so totally imbalanced it's impossible to win against them unless you play as that very same character? They get banned.

Luckily, no such character exists in Brawl (or Melee) that we have to outright ban them. Just certain tactics.

Some characters' FS:es are literally so good they break the game and make it unplayable. Link's and Toon Link's is a guaranteed KO off of 0% since they actually dish out a lot of damage before that final strike. It's unblockable, it's comboable into, it even teleports forward quite a distance. Link and Toon Link can literally win a game by simply getting as many Smash Balls as the opponent has stocks.

Marth is already Top Tier. He has good combos, good finishers, is fast, everything about him is good. To then give him an FS which is a 1 Hit KO (I think it even KO:s at 0%) which he's got 7 different ways to combo into would make him so totally imbalanced we'd have to ban his entire character.

Even if you set the FS so low it only appears every 2 minutes, that's still a chance that every two minutes, Link, Toon Link or Marth is gonna get 1 stock off of you without any effort, all the while you're trying to get them up to 150% to KO them.

You have to understand how FS:es work in this game. Have you even played the game?

And it's also impossible to eliminate the luck factor that is inherent with all items.

You know what, I have tested the Smash Balls. And what does this have to do with randomness, anyway? No amount of testing will remove the element of luck involved in where and when items randomly spawn.

 

[A New Challenger]

Yay for posts from people who don't have the game and are speculating!!! Speculating about which characters could've been cool is great fun and all... but don't argue with fervor about game mechanics you haven't actually tested.

After playing the other day for hours with a friend with no items on except Smash Balls, I can confirm a few things:

- They don't appear one per match. ****, on very high, they appear one after the other.

- They're MUCH, MUCH easier for some characters to obtain. Pretty much any aimed projectile attack (Nikita, PK Thunder, and Light Arrows were all asking "What's Up?") = free FS.

- Some characters, and I haven't seen a thread about this yet, can extract them MUCH, MUCH more easily. Lucas' PK Thunder, for example will not only take it right out of them if you go through their torso with it (every time) but when aimed properly, you can also careen the same PK Thunder back into the ball. Granted, Starstorm isn't a good FS... but when you do it three times in a minute, trust me, it hits.

- No matter how bad or good your FS is, if your opponent is much better at getting the ball, it is gamebreaking. We ended up turning them off because I main Snake and secondary Lucas, and the matches pretty much became "Let me stall until I can grab the Smashball. Uh oh, you lost a life. Repeat." That's not what competitive play is about. The idea of scrubby players who haven't taken the time to learn ATs; who can't tell a combo from a value meal and instead just sit all day practicing item chasing being able to **** up tourney ladders is just sickening.

So... yeah. No. Smash Balls can be great fun in 4P, because it's chaotic enough to have interrupts for even the near guaranteed methods above... but in 1v1? More gamebreaking than any exploding crate, barrel or capsule ever was.

 

[Firestorm88]

I've been trying out Smash Balls with friends too, and it's like randomly taking a stock off of one player. I can't see it working.

I wish people who haven't played the game would wait until they have before debating.

 

[Yuna]

What A New Challenger said, only without the "Scrubs can beat Pros"-part. That's not what's important. What's important is that it's gamebreaking (meaning: Makes the game unplayable).

 

[Brightside6382]

No it's not.

You know what happens when a character has so many moves they're so totally imbalanced it's impossible to win against them unless you play as that very same character? They get banned.

Luckily, no such character exists in Brawl (or Melee) that we have to outright ban them. Just certain tactics.

Some characters' FS:es are literally so good they break the game and make it unplayable. Link's and Toon Link's is a guaranteed KO off of 0% since they actually dish out a lot of damage before that final strike. It's unblockable, it's comboable into, it even teleports forward quite a distance. Link and Toon Link can literally win a game by simply getting as many Smash Balls as the opponent has stocks.

Marth is already Top Tier. He has good combos, good finishers, is fast, everything about him is good. To then give him an FS which is a 1 Hit KO (I think it even KO:s at 0%) which he's got 7 different ways to combo into would make him so totally imbalanced we'd have to ban his entire character.

Even if you set the FS so low it only appears every 2 minutes, that's still a chance that every two minutes, Link, Toon Link or Marth is gonna get 1 stock off of you without any effort, all the while you're trying to get them up to 150% to KO them.

You have to understand how FS:es work in this game. Have you even played the game?

And it's also impossible to eliminate the luck factor that is inherent with all items.

You know what, I have tested the Smash Balls. And what does this have to do with randomness, anyway? No amount of testing will remove the element of luck involved in where and when items randomly spawn.

That is complete bullcrap with that "Its an auto loss of a life" No it is not. They still have to combo into it etc. This is no difference then Fox in melee getting a shine kill at 0%. He's already so **** good and there's another thing going for him. (Even worse he doesn't need a smash ball to do this! GASP!)

From what I've heard smash balls aren't extremely common so "waiting for them" is completely out of the question. You're simply thinking of the most severe situation that probably is never likely to happen.

 

[A New Challenger]

I'm still of the opinion that maybe Fox should've been banned in melee. Instead, they banned maybe 5 or 6 stages specifically due to Fox. Idiotic.

Ask a Soul Calibur player how many stages were banned due to Necrid, or a third Strike Player which superarts were banned for Urien and Ken. O WAIT HUR...

 

[A New Challenger]

From what I've heard smash balls aren't extremely common so "waiting for them" is completely out of the question. You're simply thinking of the most severe situation that probably is never likely to happen.

You heard wrong, chief.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Smash Balls should be turned off.
They're basically an item, and some characters (Star Fox characters) and marth (His kills AT 0% EVEN) make it really imbalanced, its the same reason we turn items off for melee tournaments, they're random and dont show the true skill.

The tournament scene should do itself a favor and play with Smash Balls OFF.

EDIT: TOURNAMENT MATCH WITH SMASH BALL ON: http://youtube.com/watch?v=BVjkkolsJl8

They're bad. Please turn them off.

that looks like so much more fun than a regular tourney match

I SMELL APARTHEID

 

[Yuna]

That is complete bullcrap with that "Its an auto loss of a life" No it is not. They still have to combo into it etc. This is no difference then Fox in melee getting a shine kill at 0%. He's already so **** good and there's another thing going for him. (Even worse he doesn't need a smash ball to do this! GASP!)

From what I've heard smash balls aren't extremely common so "waiting for them" is completely out of the question. You're simply thinking of the most severe situation that probably is never likely to happen.

Have you played this game?

The Final Smashes do not need to be comboed into. They just can be comboed into. Link's and Toon Link's FS makes them teleport a set distance forward. If they hit anyone during that (instant) teleport, they'll initiate their FS.

I'm pretty sure you can do it in the air. It even angles slightly! Which means that all you need is to be within range for it to hit! And the range is quite large (two Marth tippers)! So the only way to "get out of it" is to somehow be able to constantly run away and stay away at least two lengths of a Tipper!

Their FS is also unblockable! So if you block a spaced aerial from the Links, they can instantly go into FS mode and kill you! And what can you do to prevent this? Nothing unless you manage to whack them hard enough to knock the FS out of them.

Marth can fair into FS. On block I'd wager.

Fox getting a Shinespike in Melee required special circumstances. The opponent had to be offstage and also fall for it. For the most part, shinespikes are quite avoidable. It's also not an instant-KO unless you've already lost your 2nd jump and/or it's done below the ledge. It's also part of his moveset and not an additional item picked up to boost him while others get barely any boost, imbalancing the game.

You couldn't Shinespike people simply by walking up to them within 2 tippers and hit them with an unblockable attack. And it wasn't always a 1 hit KO.

Do you know how often Smash balls appear? As often as we set them to appear. Even at the lowest setting, there'll be one at least every 30 seconds or 1 minute or however often items appear on Very Low. They're no different from any other item. On Very Low,they'll appear as often as any other item on Very Low.

It's quite possible and probably the Top Tier FS:ers will manage to win entire matches by spamming FS alone.

Most severe situation? All of the scenarios I present are scenarios that are likely to occur with FS:es on. Let's say Ganondorf gets it 4 times and Marth gets it 4 times. Ganondorf's is easily dodgable, making his so useless he only hits with it once. Marth hits with it 4 times. Marth wins the game.

Peach vs. Toon Link. Peach puts Toon Link to sleep and gets in a little damage 4 times. Toon Link KO's Peach 4 times. Zelda gets the FS 4 times, but gets it dodged twice. Only 2 KO's. Game & Watch tentacle-KO's Zelda 4 times. Luigi gets it 4 times and puts Sonic to sleep 4 times, getting in some damage. Sonic turns into Chaos Sonic 4 times and KO's Luigi 4 times.

FS:es will make a select few Top Tier on FS:es alone. The rest will be instantly Bottom Tier because they can't possibly compete with their lacking FS:es. They have to work hard to get the opponent up to 150% but all the opponent needs is one FS to KO them at 0-25%. Fair and balanced? Not a chance.

And there's still the Random Factor. I see you've conveniently ignored addressing that part.

I've run out of patience. You seem to have no grasp of how FS:es work, how Brawl works, how competitive gaming works and how balance works at all.

 

[Nuvia]

From what I've heard smash balls aren't extremely common so "waiting for them" is completely out of the question. You're simply thinking of the most severe situation that probably is never likely to happen.

What

Scenario: Ganondorf vs. Marth. A smash ball appears and both players jump to get it. And OH SURPRISE Marth gets it because he can out maneuver Ganondorf. Ganondorf gets KO'd.

GAME SET

Yes, very fair.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i don't get the random factor argument

peach can pull out bobombs (and even more often in brawl)
luigi's forward b and blow up and ko at early percents
mr gw's forward B is random as well

what am i misunderstanding?

 

[Egret]

i don't get the random factor argument

peach can pull out bobombs (and even more often in brawl)
luigi's forward b and blow up and ko at early percents
mr gw's forward B is random as well

what am i misunderstanding?

As far as melee is concerned, people rarely attack with judge hammer/green missile and bob-bomb is rare enough to not be an issue, but even if that were not the case, those are all part of moves which the player has complete control over using whereas the smash ball is not spawned based on input from players.

 

[Brightside6382]

Have you played this game?

The Final Smashes do not need to be comboed into. They just can be comboed into. Link's and Toon Link's FS makes them teleport a set distance forward. If they hit anyone during that (instant) teleport, they'll initiate their FS.

I'm pretty sure you can do it in the air. It even angles slightly! Which means that all you need is to be within range for it to hit! And the range is quite large (two Marth tippers)! So the only way to "get out of it" is to somehow be able to constantly run away and stay away at least two lengths of a Tipper!

Their FS is also unblockable! So if you block a spaced aerial from the Links, they can instantly go into FS mode and kill you! And what can you do to prevent this? Nothing unless you manage to whack them hard enough to knock the FS out of them.

Marth can fair into FS. On block I'd wager.

Fox getting a Shinespike in Melee required special circumstances. The opponent had to be offstage and also fall for it. For the most part, shinespikes are quite avoidable. It's also not an instant-KO unless you've already lost your 2nd jump and/or it's done below the ledge. It's also part of his moveset and not an additional item picked up to boost him while others get barely any boost, imbalancing the game.

You couldn't Shinespike people simply by walking up to them within 2 tippers and hit them with an unblockable attack. And it wasn't always a 1 hit KO.

Do you know how often Smash balls appear? As often as we set them to appear. Even at the lowest setting, there'll be one at least every 30 seconds or 1 minute or however often items appear on Very Low. They're no different from any other item. On Very Low,they'll appear as often as any other item on Very Low.

It's quite possible and probably the Top Tier FS:ers will manage to win entire matches by spamming FS alone.

And there's still the Random Factor. I see you've conveniently ignored addressing that part.

First of all do you really have to write a frickin essay every time? Part of me doesn't want to reply for the simple fact that I have to read a god **** book every time you post.

I'm not gonna quote myself because you were unable to read my earlier post where I stated if I had/hadn't played the game.

Well then I guess learning how to bait and dodge FS could start to become a big part of the game? Nothings wrong with change in my eyes. Nothing is ever an assured KO'd unless you are somehow lead into it.

That "special circumstance" nonsense you spewed about Fox's shine can be said about FS's also. You have to first obtain the ball then make sure your opponent "falls for it". The shine was so effective that if u were hit off the edge with it most cases are that you would die. Sometimes even if it doesn't outright kill you it leaves in such a bad position you might as well have died earlier anyways. (Also many chars you could simply walk up to the and waveshine em off the stage)

I must admit a smash ball every 30secs-1 minute is way overboard. There must be some other way to diminish its spawn rates.

Also I already stated that the random factor will always be there. I never decided to "overlook" the issue so stop pulling things out of your ***.

 

[NotEz]

definitely not! some peoples final smashes are much better then others. Plus, if the smash ball appears above you then you have a HUGE advantage to get it. I think they're going to do the same thing in pro/competitive scene by just not having any items at all. That's how it was in melee and that's how it is going to be in Brawl.

 

[Mikezor]

i don't get the random factor argument

peach can pull out bobombs (and even more often in brawl)
luigi's forward b and blow up and ko at early percents
mr gw's forward B is random as well

what am i misunderstanding?

Those are abilities of certain characters. The smash ball is an additional element. The smash ball can spawn anytime, anywhere. You get up smashed by Marth, and then a smash ball appears right next to him. How is that not random?

 

[Nuvia]

That "special circumstance" nonsense you spewed about Fox's shine can be said about FS's also.

Marth's FS gives you a free KO. Fox's reflector does not.

 

[Charlesz]

FS in competitive play? NO WAY.

It's far too cheap, it forces the player who doesnt have the ball to play defenses or loss a stock or dealing easy massive damage.

 

[Charlesz]

FS in competitive play? NO WAY.

It's far too cheap, it forces the player who doesnt have the ball to play defenses or loss a stock or dealing easy massive damage.

 

[Brightside6382]

Marth's FS gives you a free KO. Fox's reflector does not.

So are you saying the second you activate the FS with Marth the stock is immediately taken off? Yea didn't think so, think before you post.

 

[Nuvia]

So are you saying the second you activate the FS with Marth the stock is immediately taken off? Yea didn't think so, think before you post.

Are you saying final smashes are comparable to special moves? They aren't. Think before you post.

 

[naevorc]

A counter argument for the counter argument is that.... smash balls do NOT take that much skill to kill. Two hits from an aerial. Any good player in a tourny can pull that off. It ends up coming down to who's closer. Besides that, a lot of the smashes are unbalanced. Look at a Wolf vs Ness match, and tell me that's totally fair.

 

[Thedude3445]

So... they are a little unbalanced what is the big deal here. Plus so far I haven't seen many people actively trying to find ways to avoid Final Smashes. A lot of things need to be tested before we just straight out say NO to them. Hell, a lot of the people I play Bloody Roar with wanted to turn off Hyper beast for matches but we kept them on and we ended up over coming the problems we thought they had.

Has anyone actively tried to find specific ways to approach characters effectively when the opponent is holding a smash ball? I don't think its good to get rid of things so early unless the community really tries to find ways to avoid these and cannot find anything after a long period of time.

Doesn't Marth's FS have the potential of causing him to kill himself? Doesn't the smashball get knocked out of Marth with relatively weak attacks?

I don't think the randomness created by most items, including smash balls, is enough to really make a banning seem acceptable. There are plenty of games that are played in tournaments that have some random elements but they have survived as tournament games for years and years. Look at Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo, it is like the grandfather of fighting game tournaments and they still have tournaments for it 13 years after its release and it was random elements that are comparable to what items bring.

Yes it is.
So what?
Like random grab damage in Super Turbo?
First they need to break it, then they need to do this easy combo to make it effective. The others just don't have a good final smash... who cares? Doesn't seem like its something that is game breaking.

So we need to add exact stuff to games in order to make a comparison? So random effects and damage in Super Turbo don't hold up? I guess you think Super Turbo isn't tournament worthy?

Unbalanced stuff happens in games. Look at some of the supers in 3S, some are crazy good damage and short bars and good hit confirms while others have long bars almost no way to combo and doesn't do too good of damage.

Sounds a bit... but not enough.

Totally best counter-arguement counter ever.

 

[Yuna]

So are you saying the second you activate the FS with Marth the stock is immediately taken off? Yea didn't think so, think before you post.

If they hit with it, yeah. If Fox hits you with a shine, it's not a guaranteed KO. You can still, oh, say, 2nd jump into Up B or just Up B if your Up B is really good. Fox has to follow up the Shinespike with another and/or edgehogging. And even then he could mess up or your character's recovery could just be too good for it to work.

With Marth's, Link's and Toon Link's FS:es, once they hit, you die.

I'm not gonna quote myself because you were unable to read my earlier post where I stated if I had/hadn't played the game.

Then why are you arguing as if you know how FS:es work?

Well then I guess learning how to bait and dodge FS could start to become a big part of the game? Nothings wrong with change in my eyes. Nothing is ever an assured KO'd unless you are somehow lead into it.

You cannot dodge certain FS:es. The hitboxes stay out way too long. Good players also won't allow you to bait/dodge FS:es. They won't randomly throw them out when you can dodge them. Also, what happens when you dodge it? You bought some more time. The next time they get it, you might not get so lucky.

Certain FS:es are so fast on startup it's impossible to dodge them on pure reaction. You'll have to have started doging even before the opponent hits B.

I'm arguing a hypothetical battle between two competitive players here. Not you and your brother.

That "special circumstance" nonsense you spewed about Fox's shine can be said about FS's also. You have to first obtain the ball then make sure your opponent "falls for it". The shine was so effective that if u were hit off the edge with it most cases are that you would die. Sometimes even if it doesn't outright kill you it leaves in such a bad position you might as well have died earlier anyways. (Also many chars you could simply walk up to the and waveshine em off the stage)

It's not a matter of falling for it.

How often does one not get hit in Melee or any fighting game? One jab/tilt/throw and that might be all that's needed for you to get combod into a Final Smash.

A 1 Hit KO FS will be a 1 hit KO FS no matter where on the stage you get hit. A shinespike will only kill you if you have lost your 2nd jump and are off the ledge.

I must admit a smash ball every 30secs-1 minute is way overboard. There must be some other way to diminish its spawn rates.

There isn't.

Also I already stated that the random factor will always be there. I never decided to "overlook" the issue so stop pulling things out of your ***.

Then you've lost the argument. The Random Factor is a major part of why we can never have FS:es on. Imagine Sonic just KO:ed you. While you fly off, die and respawn, a Smash Ball spawns near him and he gets it before you even have the chance to land after respawning. He can now Chaos Sonic your new stock off.

Stuff like that will happen. And often.

 

[kirborg]

I'm really in favor of allowing new gameplay conditions to enter the competitive scene... but I just don't see this happening.

The smash balls can give so much of an advantage that it turns the whole match upside down. I won't go over the arguments again because plenty of people have done so already, but adding it all up it doesn't seem fair to include them.

It's a shame really, it would have been very interesting if they were more balanced.