Will we have Smash Ball activated as an item in the pro/competitive scene?

[clowsui]

I dunno if anyone else has been wanting/thinking about this, but I honestly think that this is a debatable issue.

This item is so different in comparison to all the others; although it requires the same amount of luck (it floats around in random directions >_>; ), it's much better than the other items in that it can easily be taken away. It's a fairly balanced item.

So...thoughts?

As requested by darkNES, here's his focus post:

The one undeniable problem currently is that if Zamus can not be a startable character, her professional tournament fate is tied with the Smash Ball in/out.

The Smash Ball / Final Smash Debate:

These are the MAJOR CATEGORIES that it seems the focus is on:

1. USING THE FINAL SMASH
2. GETTING THE SMASH BALL
3. THE FINAL SMASH IS A MOVE / THE SMASH BALL IS AN ITEM

These are some specific arguments:
1) Character(s) A...B... has a broken FS
2) Character A has a better FS than Character B
3) Character(s) A...B... has a horrible FS

Do we know for sure whether or not certain characters have a broken FS?
-We can speculate for now

Arguments 2 and 3 are pointless. You don't complain about how useful one character's Down B move is in comparison to another character's Down B, final smashes (not smash balls) are character specfic.

GETTING THE SMASH BALL - We know it takes damage and it reacts to attacks. Sometimes it seems to stand still as you hit it and other times it's going across the screen. The question now becomes do both players have an equal chance of acquring the smash ball?

Using your final smash / avoiding another characters final smash
-You could tie this into the fairness of aquiring the smash ball. If you decide both characters have a fair chance... then regardless of what their final smash is... doesn't the one character deserve the right then to use their final smash, regardless of how good or bad it may be? (Also eliminates the compalints about one FS being better or worse than another)

I hope you can tell that right now I'm not taking a stance, I choose to wait until the game comes out.

I would like to think that they had an exciting element to the mix... without rewording what the dojo update this Monday said... it complicates things.

I think we should try and focus more on what we need to access once the game comes out... rather than have a concrete mindset right now. Go ahead and tell me to get off the fence, but I think this is the way to go right now.

Could you perhaps edit your first post by adding this quote from the top of page 39 of your thread?[/QUOTE]

 

[Nowfist]

Most likely if you're talking about tourney's and stuff like that, the smash ball is a huge part of the game, so it would be included for sure.

 

[Frogla]

it should be actaully, since it involes attacking this item. But only if random boxes and capsules removed.

 

[Mersh]

As long as we can remove exploding crates, barrels, and capsules, as well as any other broken/luck-oriented items, I'm pretty sure we'll be able to have general items in competitive play, including the Smash Ball.

 

[M3tr01D]

for tourneys I doubt this will be included. too much random luck. if the ball spawns on top of you then you pretty much win the stock.

The only way I can see this working is if it spawned at a certain point in every stage so you would have to guard that area, and could lead to less camping issues and things like that.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So far I've only seen one Smash Ball per match. That may depend on how long your matches are.

 

[Black Waltz]

Most likely if you're talking about tourney's and stuff like that, the smash ball is a huge part of the game, so it would be included for sure.

items are a huge part the game and they arent allowed in tournies.

 

[clowsui]

The thing is though, with the "attacking the ball" point as "pro-Smash Ball", it can also be used as a counter-argument. It you attack the ball as Samus and only need one more UAir and it floats away to Fox, who NAir's it and grabs it for the Landmaster, that's some really dumb-a** sh**. That's an easy pwning, and all because you got some random turn of the ball!

EDIT: er, slightly late

 

[omfgomfg]

no, it should not be allowed in tournies

 

[F@lc0-san]

items are a huge part the game and they arent allowed in tournies.

And thats only because of exploding crates/barrels/capsules.

IF the Smash ball is a completley different thing on its own(Wich I guess it is) then its cool.

If it also causes exploding crates/barrels/capsules to apear they will be banned.

 

[mkmelee]

Definitely not. Some characters have really crappy and avoidable Smash attacks, while others are just pure ownage. Not to mention the fact that some are really only good with more than 2 players, while others go absolutely insane on one character.

Seeing as how in serious play the most amount of characters you'll be fighting against is 2, many FS's would not be very useful, and various characters would have a huge edge.

 

[element_of_fire]

i HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt it will be....

 

[F@lc0-san]

Definitely not. Some characters have really crappy and avoidable Smash attacks, while others are just pure ownage. Not to mention the fact that some are really only good with more than 2 players, while others go absolutely insane on one character.

Seeing as how in serious play the most amount of characters you'll be fighting against is 2, many FS's would not be very useful, and various characters would have a huge edge.

Then dont let them grab it.

Fight for it, I would play with them on.

 

[Kirby knight]

items are a huge part the game and they arent allowed in tournies.

As someone said, this is due to exploding crates and such. It's not like the Final Smashes are unavoidable. I don't think they should be banned out right. Tell me is there anything wrong with testing them?

-Knight

 

[commonyoshi]

And thats only because of exploding crates/barrels/capsules.

That's not the only reason they're banned. >_>
The Smash Ball looks kind of unbalanced to me. You get some good attacks like Samus's laser and some pretty lame ones like Sonic's super saiyan thingie.

Edit: Oh dear... team attack on...

 

[element_of_fire]

That's not the only reason they're banned. >_>
The Smash Ball looks kind of unbalanced to me. You get some good attacks like Samus's laser and some pretty lame ones like Sonic's super saiyan thingie.

Edit: Oh dear... team attack on...

not to mention peach practically gets a full heal

 

[Pyroloserkid]

As long as we can remove exploding crates, barrels, and capsules, as well as any other broken/luck-oriented items, I'm pretty sure we'll be able to have general items in competitive play, including the Smash Ball.

This is pretty much word-for-word what I was going to say.
I for one will be very upset if smash balls are banned. Let's just hope Sakurai gives a way to get around the exploding boxes and such.

 

[F@lc0-san]

Thing is.

You have to attack the smash ball, then grab it, and then ACTIVATE IT.

Wich is what some people underestimate. Ever fought someone with items, and grabbed a bob-omb or a PokeBall or whatever and got pwnd before you got to use it?

I did.

When yoou activate your Final Smash it doesnt go off imediatley, there is some slight "Casting animation" Plenty of time to interupt.

 

[Zevox]

That's not the only reason they're banned. >_>
The Smash Ball looks kind of unbalanced to me. You get some good attacks like Samus's laser and some pretty lame ones like Sonic's super saiyan thingie.

Edit: Oh dear... team attack on...

Did you see the videos of the matches where those moves were used? If anything, Samus' Zero Laser is underpowered, while Super Sonic is overpowered. Zero Laser can be jumped over pretty easily and only does about 40% damage total, while Super Sonic is controllable by the player, has perfect flight control, and does big damage and a lot of knockback just by moving into the foe. When a level 3 computer using Sonic got ahold of the smash ball, it went from utterly incompetent to quickly and easily destroying the demo player it was fighting.

Zevox

 

[EarthboundMun]

Personally, I'd like to see Final Smashes in tournament play. For the 'lulz itz all luk' purists, consider that it takes an equal amount of skill to get a Smash Ball, and just because your opponent has one doesn't meant that there aren't methods of avoiding it, and there's where more skill comes in. It adds a bit of an edge to a tournament scene that's boring overall due to the same boring stages and characters used time and time again.

At any rate, very few of the Final Smashes seem to require any luck to hit someone with. Seems like it narrows down to all skill and timing, I'd imagine for most of the Final Smashes, there's probably a method to negate or avoid some of them. I'd love to see if you can just hang on the edge of the level to avoid Samus or Mario's Final Smash, for example. To throw another example out there, avoiding Super Sonic doesn't seem particularly difficult. You could easily employ mid-air dodges to avoid each pass, provided that it doesn't completely annihilate you in passing.

There's a lot of guess work involved, and we don't know how many of the Final Smashes work. Personally, I'd enjoy seeing Final Smashes in Tournaments. However, doesn't really matter what I think about it, since they'll banhammer it into submission anyway. Tournament purists are predictable.

 

[BentoBox]

Sonic's FS is better than Samus'... o,o

The simple fact that items appear randomly around the map makes it unbalanced. It won't always be possible to fight for the SmashBall... What if it spawns on the left side of the map while I've just knocked my opponent on its right side and is trying to come back while I smash the ball?

And Smashballs weren't meant to be balanced in the first place, I'd really hate it if Tiers were affected by every char's FS potential...

 

[commonyoshi]

Did you see the videos of the matches where those moves were used? If anything, Samus' Zero Laser is underpowered, while Super Sonic is overpowered. Zero Laser can be jumped over pretty easily and only does about 40% damage total, while Super Sonic is controllable by the player, has perfect flight control, and does big damage and a lot of knockback just by moving into the foe. When a level 3 computer using Sonic got ahold of the smash ball, it went from utterly incompetent to quickly and easily destroying the demo player it was fighting.

Zevox

It really depends on how you use Samus's cannon. Obviously, just shooting it would be stupid. You should probably activate it after hitting the opponent into the air. Oh, and it's the greatest edge guard ever.

Air dodge the Super Saiyan attack. It really shouldn't be that hard.

 

[element_of_fire]

Personally, I'd like to see Final Smashes in tournament play. For the 'lulz itz all luk' purists, consider that it takes an equal amount of skill to get a Smash Ball, and just because your opponent has one doesn't meant that there aren't methods of avoiding it, and there's where more skill comes in. It adds a bit of an edge to a tournament scene that's boring overall due to the same boring stages and characters used time and time again.

At any rate, very few of the Final Smashes seem to require any luck to hit someone with. Seems like it narrows down to all skill and timing, I'd imagine for most of the Final Smashes, there's probably a method to negate or avoid some of them. I'd love to see if you can just hang on the edge of the level to avoid Samus or Mario's Final Smash, for example. To throw another example out there, avoiding Super Sonic doesn't seem particularly difficult. You could easily employ mid-air dodges to avoid each pass, provided that it doesn't completely annihilate you in passing.

There's a lot of guess work involved, and we don't know how many of the Final Smashes work. Personally, I'd enjoy seeing Final Smashes in Tournaments. However, doesn't really matter what I think about it, since they'll banhammer it into submission anyway. Tournament purists are predictable.

its not ALL about luck... its about the overall balance too.. right now we can't be sure how balanced they will be... but i'm guessing they will be banned

 

[F@lc0-san]

Off topic: Just a quicky, I am SO gonna team with a friend and make a 2Samus team, then let each of us get a smash ball go to the opposite sides of the screen and trap the 3rd player in it xD.

 

[pablovirus]

Before saying that they should be banned, itwould b better to check if any character/s have completely broken or imbalanced FSs when the game comes out....

Do all characters become invulnerable when performing a FS?

 

[BentoBox]

With friendly fire on, oh yes.

Peach's FS is OP for obvious reasons.. Pit's doesn't require any skill and leaves his opponent with the greatest of openings. Sonic's is OP... unless the momentum is too big, I don't see why Sonic couldn't simply stay still while his opponent airdodges in vain, and ADing makes you vulnerable anyway..

 

[EarthboundMun]

Sonic's FS is better than Samus'... o,o

The simple fact that items appear randomly around the map makes it unbalanced. It won't always be possible to fight for the SmashBall... What if it spawns on the left side of the map while I've just knocked my opponent on its right side and is trying to come back while I smash the ball?

Dunno. From all the videos I've seen, the Smash Ball has a tendency to spawn in hard to reach areas, or high enough to make immediately destroying the Smash Ball difficult. This is probably intentional, since even if you're close to it, destroying it might not be an immediate option because you have to decide whether to edgeguard your opponent or try to snag the Smash Ball. Keep in mind that the Smash Balls also tend to zig zag quickly right and left and change trajectory constantly, making actually destroying it a bit of a chore.

 

[Xengri]

Yes take out smash balls and strip the game of almost everything, just like in SSBM tournies.


I was opposed to how the tournaments in Melee to so much out of the game, so of curse i would be displeases if smash balls were taken out in Brawl tournies.

I mean come on, allot of thought and hard work was put in to final smashes, why dismiss all of that?

Luck can always be countered by a certain amount of skill, espcially in this case were smash balls can be knocked out of a opponent. Plus the smash ball can't be instantly attained since it has to be broken first.

Besides, final smashed can be dodged anyway, and if you manage to dodge them, it leaves your enemy open for a few moments after the attack.

i don't see why this should be taken out. it's a nice piece of content in Brawl and can be worked to the advantage of the person doing the final smash of the person dodging , then countering.

 

[vincentninja68]

It'd be cool if final smashes were built into the character like marvel vs capcom style, have a meter that builds up over time, then you can use it. They might wanna do something about that press b to activate it, that would make it difficult to hang on to for later in the battle.

 

[Crispy4001]

I understand that some strategy could into play with breaking the small bash and pulling off a Final Attack most effectively.


... but Samus' Final Smash KO'd Sonic at 58% in the Gamespot interview video. Sonic wasn't even near the edge when it happened; he was firmly planted at the center of the stage.

Then look at Peaches. grab lots of items that heal 5% health, nail your sleeping opponent with a smash before they wake up, and grab even more health while they fly away.



Point is, Final Smashes are MEANT to be game breaking. They're supposed to create turnovers to keep things interesting for casual players wanting more random chaos. That comes at the expense of making how you play otherwise matter for less. In other words, the 70% damage leg-up you worked hard for matters for nothing once a smash ball pops in. Whoever gets that most likely gets the kill (or a free comeback/advance).


That alone is enough to keep them out of the tournament scene. Add to that the random spawing, semi-random trajectory and it's a deal breaker.

 

[kilroy]

*moved to new topic*

 

[-Knux-]

If smash balls aren't allowed then Zero Suit Samus is useless in competitive play. I'm sure a lot of fans of Zamus will be ticked.

I have a question. Remember the minute long video that was released on Wednesday showing Fox use his fox illusion to attack the smash ball that was floating over the giant hole in the Bridge of Eldin stage? If Fox used his fox illusion attack to attack it, how did he activate his final smash attack after grabbing it when you can't use any attacks after using fox illusion? Maybe there's a new rule that when you use an up special attack on a smash ball or another attack that renders you useless after using it you can still activate your final smash. Who knows... I was just curious about that.

I wish there were more videos on Ike. There's two. One is hard to see him doing anything and the other is alright.

 

[Zevox]

It really depends on how you use Samus's cannon. Obviously, just shooting it would be stupid. You should probably activate it after hitting the opponent into the air. Oh, and it's the greatest edge guard ever.

Air dodge the Super Saiyan attack. It really shouldn't be that hard.

After they're hit into the air it will merely be even easier for them avoid it, since they're probably above its firing area anyway (and if you try to fire from a raised platform they can easily fast-fall beneath it). And considering you can't use other special attacks while holding a smash ball charge and foes that attack you can force the ball back out of you, trying to fight opponents while holding the charge isn't the greatest idea ever either, which will make it difficult to keep it long enough to edge guard with it.

Air dodging isn't going to be nearly enough to avoid Super Sonic. Hes even faster in that form in case you didn't notice. Someone whos truly proficient with a form that fast and powerful is going to be a frightening thing indeed.

Zevox

 

[vonfinell]

So far I've only seen one Smash Ball per match. That may depend on how long your matches are.

Actually, in the demo video it is shown twice. Although it's only used once, right as the match is ending we see another one appear, therefore, more than on can appear. The question is whether the same person can use their Final Smash several times in the same match. If so, Zamus needs her own Final...

 

[GhostAnime]

Zamus fans won't be ticked if there's another way to access her.

 

[Dave the Perspicacious]

I think we will have to wait, to observe how the Brawl community and tournament scene evolves, until it is decided.

Personally i have a feeling that we will have a split.

1) Tournament regulations that allow the smashball:
- Because a characters smash attacks are an integral part of them.
- It may actually balance the characters out a little more (perhaps not, who knows.)
- Items in melee weren't a unique or integral part of each character, therefore providing an exception to the smashball, regardless of whether or not other items are allowed.
- Exciting twist from the standard melee play.

2)Tournament regulations that ban the smashball:
- People that refuse to play with it, requiring the absolute minimal amount of luck involved (even though from what I have seen, the smashball seems to take more skill than luck to acquire. The players fight for control over it...)
- People that would honestly prefer to stick to melee style of play for whatever reason.

Anyway, it is not worth worrying about now ^_^
These things can be beat to death when Brawl comes out

Dave

 

[Kirby knight]

Sonic's FS is better than Samus'... o,o

The simple fact that items appear randomly around the map makes it unbalanced. It won't always be possible to fight for the SmashBall... What if it spawns on the left side of the map while I've just knocked my opponent on its right side and is trying to come back while I smash the ball?

And Smashballs weren't meant to be balanced in the first place, I'd really hate it if Tiers were affected by every char's FS potential...

The items appear randomly? I was under the impression that items have set spawn points around the stage, that are selected at random. If you take the time to memorize the random spawning points you give you self more of an advantage than if you didn't.

Also why would you hated if tiers could be effected by this? I mean aren't some of the characters judged/placed on the tier list because of their wavedashing? Final Smash could help balance the tiers, you just have to test it first. There is not point in banning something outright without testing it.

-Knight

 

[element_of_fire]

If smash balls aren't allowed then Zero Suit Samus is useless in competitive play. I'm sure a lot of fans of Zamus will be ticked.

I have a question. Remember the minute long video that was released on Wednesday showing Fox use his fox illusion to attack the smash ball that was floating over the giant hole in the Bridge of Eldin stage? If Fox used his fox illusion attack to attack it, how did he activate his final smash attack after grabbing it when you can't use any attacks after using fox illusion? Maybe there's a new rule that when you use an up special attack on a smash ball or another attack that renders you useless after using it you can still activate your final smash. Who knows... I was just curious about that.

I wish there were more videos on Ike. There's two. One is hard to see him doing anything and the other is alright.

thats why she should be a selectable characer on her own

 

[Crispy4001]

Zero Suit is given her own character spot in the character roster on the website. It's a sure bet that she'll be selectable on her own.

 

[Blade Knight]

I find this thought to be rediculous the smash ball is a massive part of the game they allow further stratagy in the match and if you ko someone before they use their final smash they lose it completely in addition it doesnt spawn at spawn points it comes in from a random part of the screen and floats around until someone grabs it or it leaves.