Will we have Smash Ball activated as an item in the pro/competitive scene?

[Samochan]

Reasons why FS should be banned at competitive tournaments:

- You can grab multiple smash balls per game. On 4-5 minute matches there could easily spawn from 1 to 4 smash balls and there is no guarantee both players will get their smash balls. I don't see Kirby getting a smash ball before Sonic does. I also see Sonic owning kirby out of his final smash with his faster movement while kirby is not near that fast and sonic could just run away for eternity if kirby ever tries to get his smash ball out of sonic. >_>

- Smash balls need multiple hits to be pried open and they fly away from you while you do it. This creates an opening to your opponent to not only hit you, but hit you away or go hit the smash ball as it flies toward him and break it on one hit. They also spawn randomly and do not stay on one place. Also some characters can activate smash ball from one hit while others need to dish out many hits in order to break them.

- Crates and all those might not be able to be turn un-explodable, which creates another luck factor here.

- Stalling a match with final smash could also be done, like Sonic is invulnerable with his super sonic mode and you can just freely fly around till your FS runs out and stall some time while dishing damage to your opponent 20% per hit.

- Some final smashes being unavoidable and broken, like Samus and Peach's and extremely devastating as well. Peach's even includes self healing items from every character on play and at least 37% to every player. I could easily foresee peach doing her fs on teams, while her partner already has high damage possibly and is in risk getting KO'ed or is at very low%, then peach just goes to wake up her partner and afterwards they can either heal themselves quite a lot or possibly get a free KO on someone. Not to mention it only affects some chars on screen, partner going to ledge and doing ledgestals (which is confirmed) and he could possibly even avoid partner final smash even when on range. >_> Oh and I don't even go to that part where Meta Knight is invulnerable when he does his tornado... (yoshi fs fireball hit and no damage or any stun) um broken combo anyone? >_> And whoever said a character could not just save the smash ball till partner got it, nothing mentiones tehre can't be 2 smash balls on field at the same time. Peach fs at the same time when sonic activates his fs, making him invulnerable and then he can go and Ko those opponents while peach self heals. >_>

- Final smashes in general are very broken. They enable easy KO's, are often invulnerable, some self heal, deal lots and lots of damage and are unavoidable. And can be done as many times per match as they want. They're also used to create more havoc in multiplayer games and to turn the tides of the match, interviews say. Luck and unfair advantage I don't want to see turn the tides for a tournament match.

- Overall randomness and luck factor and some fs beign sucky and some total ownage, creating unfair situations which are luck and character based.


I consider items on melee to be luck based and do not determine skills of the players and smash balls are just very ownage version of items. Self healing was banned from the very beginning even before items got taken out, if I'm correct. Well peach self heals with fs, so it should be banned, no? Starman is broken, does this mean super sonic should be banned as well? And we don't know anything about fox's final smash and Bowsers, for all we know they could also be invulnerable and can just dish out damage while opponents can't do nothing.

 

[ResidentWaffle]

Not another items debate. I'd like to see you guys when you get killed and as your flying off the screen in the background you opponent gets his smash ball somehow. Real fair imo.

 

[mkmelee]

What makes Super moves in other fighting games any less of a "Win Button"? Controller motions? That becomes less of an issue and can be pulled off with ease once you get used to them and deals a ton of damage when performed right. I guess all Super Moves are skill-less, eh?.

Of course they aren't. Not all of them are that balanced but at least Ryu isn't forced to try to avoid Bison's psycho crusher thing by beating the pulp out of him/running away just because Bison happened to have his special basically come to him.
Anyways, SF is totally different and isn't even that balanced. We want something better than SF obviously (though the two are quite different) and being more balanced is something better.

 

[ResidentWaffle]

I like all of these people not part of sbr debating this when they almost have no real say.

 

[Crispy4001]

Makkers:


1. I'll concede that going after a Smash Ball when you're trying to edge-guard may not be an ideal situation ... well, other than for Peach and her sleep/health recovery, which would be well it. Or perhaps to get it in case you botch-up the ledge guarding and they go for it.

But if you're on the opposite side of the stage (perhaps because you just smashed attacked them away), of course you're going to go after it. Most likely uncontested.


2. Unlike other Fighting games 'uber' moves, Final Smashes aren't given as direct rewards or compensations. They randomly spawn. Not to mention that most Final Smashes look MUCH harder to elude than say, a super move in Marvel vs Capcom. Keep in mind that most of the FS's also grant invincibility, and therefore can't be countered.


3. You do realize that her blast radius is huge, right? And that it lasts for a LONG time? And if you miss, no big deal. They can't hit you. If they can't find solid ground above/below you, they're screwed. KO'd if they have 58%+ (if not less).


4. Not all characters have balanced Final Smashes. Compare Pit and Peach's. The Super Sonic thing referred to your comment that they could kill themselves with it ... tournament players wouldn't kill themselves with it.


5. Whatever disadvantages those final smashes cannot be picked up on and countered by the player at the mercy of it. You can't roll behind Samus when she's using it and forward-A her. You have to wait it out. Pit's just about the only exception (yet still, he's free to move and attack on his own).

The most significant downside that could be result from a final smash is a suicide. But that's not something a seasoned player's going to do often, nor is it something the opponent can take credit for.

 

[_Phloat_]

So far I've only seen one Smash Ball per match. That may depend on how long your matches are.

This is the topic of another post, and the most we have seen is two smashballs in a match, the second one was never used.

 

[BentoBox]

That's irrelevant as stock matches usually last more than 2minutes.

 

[Team Giza]

Even with the video we have so far I don't think we know enough to make a decision. Lets use them in the first couple of tournaments and if they don't work then we can remove them. I am hoping they can stay in to change the dynamics of the game a bit when compared to melee.

 

[Crispy4001]

What it all comes down to is this: the Final Smash is an artificial, partially-random way for the game to give a significant advantage to particular player. That player could be behind or ahead, or have been given that advantage 3 times in the match already. There's no way to counter once the move once it's been activated.


To put it bluntly, FS's go one step beyond the invincibility star in terms of tipping the scale:

You can't justify that as balance suitable for a skill based match.

 

[Zeela12]

It does float around alot, might be an advantage for character that fly around (Kirby, Metaknight, Pit)

 

[WoapGang]

This is the topic of another post, and the most we have seen is two smashballs in a match, the second one was never used.

in one video Pit used his FS 2wice

 

[Master Peach]

Makkers:


1. I'll concede that going after a Smash Ball when you're trying to edge-guard may not be an ideal situation ... well, other than for Peach and her sleep/health recovery, which would be well it. Or perhaps to get it in case you botch-up the ledge guarding and they go for it.

But if you're on the opposite side of the stage (perhaps because you just smashed attacked them away), of course you're going to go after it. Most likely uncontested.


2. Unlike other Fighting games 'uber' moves, Final Smashes aren't given as direct rewards or compensations. They randomly spawn. Not to mention that most Final Smashes look MUCH harder to elude than say, a super move in Marvel vs Capcom. Keep in mind that most of the FS's also grant invincibility, and therefore can't be countered.


3. You do realize that her blast radius is huge, right? And that it lasts for a LONG time? And if you miss, no big deal. They can't hit you. If they can't find solid ground above/below you, they're screwed. KO'd if they have 58%+ (if not less).


4. Not all characters have balanced Final Smashes. Compare Pit and Peach's. The Super Sonic thing referred to your comment that they could kill themselves with it ... tournament players wouldn't kill themselves with it.


5. Whatever disadvantages those final smashes cannot be picked up on and countered by the player at the mercy of it. You can't roll behind Samus when she's using it and forward-A her. You have to wait it out. Pit's just about the only exception (yet still, he's free to move and attack on his own).

The most significant downside that could be result from a final smash is a suicide. But that's not something a seasoned player's going to do often, nor is it something the opponent can take credit for.

All this will do is cause you to work harder to stop your opponent from using his/her Final Smash. If they don't attack right away There's an opportunity for you to beat the Smash ball out of your opponent. You will have to think carefully about how your gonna do that. I mean they won't just let you come up and beat it out of them. This Will require Skill to do. And If your opponent does use there final Smash, whose fault is that for letting them use it. If it was me and my bro who were paying this game and he got the smash ball I'd be trying my hardest to knock it out of him. If he uses it on me it's my fault that I couldn't get it out of him and
let him hit me with it.

You have to think about the situation. I'm very sure there is a way around every final Smash, and be able to get around them will make the game more fun and interesting imo. This will add strategy to the game. I'm sure of it. And I can honestly see this this being use in tournaments.

 

[Xengri]

Baka. Anyone with a basic knowledge of Smash wouldbe able to counter your "arguements".
Your first sentence, no content. "it makes me sick. Wah wah!"

Way to read out of context buddy. If you couldn't figure it out, that first sentence was to tell the reader were i stand on the subject. it would be senseless whining if i had no reasons for were I stand but, NO way! I did post reasons!

Second sentence, adaptation is everything in this game. Nice use of vague wording there. That's all it is.

That is what it is, just cause you agree to adapt to one thing (ex. Mindgames) doesn't excuse the fact that you don't try to adapt at another (ex. FSs)

I dont think you know what the point of a tournament is. A tournament is supposed to be a gathering of players who play the same game, have fun, and determine who is the best. So yes, having someone at a disadvantage would undermine the whole part about deciding the best, making it suck.

I know what the point of a tournament is, it's not a hard concept... And the whole "having someone at a disadvantage would undermine the whole part about deciding the best". Thats so.... I can't tell if this is suppose to be a joke or not. If everyone has the ability to stop themselves from being placed at a disadvantage, still sounds like a test of skill to me. And at the rare event that they are uncontrollably put into a disadvantage, well try to use skill to deal with it. Dodge, counter, block, whatever you can do is really up to you. (that rhymed...)

What's really irksome about your post is the way you seem so upidy about having the tides turned against you. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about because no one likes being at a disadvantage. It is part of being human. In fact, I bet you're only in favor of items because you're terrible at the game and need an excuse to hate the people better than you. That's also part of human nature.

Once again, you've got to be joking... Why would anyone be happy at being put at a disadvantage? I just decided that if such a event should happen, I'll choose to deal with it instead of take it out all together. And did i say I was in favor of items? I don't mind them but I won't be anymore happier if they were turned off. What does bother me is that people are already putting Final smashes ( which is a pleasantly new feature of Brawl) into the No that be luck basket.

Jibberish. You've obviously never played for high stakes (like five bucks. ) or even for the title of being best among your friends. If you did you'd disregard everything you've just said.

obviously mine and your definition of "high stakes" is very different. But yes I have played for Ranking and Money. Guess what, I still stand by what i said. Crazy huh?

I'm not a "good player", but whatever.

It's easier when you admit it


Anyway I'm done with this, I already have my answer (WiFI). I'm not going to derail this thread with a argument anymore since nether me nor you have a complete understanding of how FSs work. I'll be happy to continue this debate after the game is released and more about FSs are know. Who knows maybe I might change my mind after I've seen them in some real matches.

Besides it's to early for anyone to really know if they want Smash balls in or out. But like I said, I'm done until all is known about FSs. Running your mouth without knowing everything about a subject can make you look stupid in the end.

 

[Alias]

i really want the smash ball completely incorporated in the game and cant be turned off

its adds to the gameplay immensely. I say its more part of a character move set then it is an item.

you know how funny that will mess up the "tier" list :D

 

[Makkers]

I like all of these people not part of sbr debating this when they almost have no real say.

Anybody who registered to this site has a say on the topic since the topic is open for debate.

Makkers:


1. I'll concede that going after a Smash Ball when you're trying to edge-guard may not be an ideal situation ... well, other than for Peach and her sleep/health recovery, which would be well it. Or perhaps to get it in case you botch-up the ledge guarding and they go for it.

But if you're on the opposite side of the stage (perhaps because you just smashed attacked them away), of course you're going to go after it. Most likely uncontested.


2. Unlike other Fighting games 'uber' moves, Final Smashes aren't given as direct rewards or compensations. They randomly spawn. Not to mention that most Final Smashes look MUCH harder to elude than say, a super move in Marvel vs Capcom. Keep in mind that some of the FS's also grant invincibility, and therefore can't be countered.


3. You do realize that her blast radius is huge, right? And that it lasts for a LONG time? And if you miss, no big deal. They can't hit you. If they can't find solid ground above/below you, they're screwed. KO'd if they have 58%+ (if not less).


4. Not all characters have balanced Final Smashes. Compare Pit and Peach's. The Super Sonic thing referred to your comment that they could kill themselves with it ... tournament players wouldn't kill themselves with it.


5. Whatever disadvantages those final smashes cannot be picked up on and countered by the player at the mercy of it. You can't roll behind Samus when she's using it and forward-A her. You have to wait it out. Pit's just about the only exception (yet still, he's free to move and attack on his own).

The most significant downside that could be result from a final smash is a suicide. But that's not something a seasoned player's going to do often, nor is it something the opponent can take credit for.

1.) Despite being uncontested, what purpose would a FS serve if you're already winning/losing? Also, due to the speed of the game as well as the size of the stages, the distance between you and the Smash Ball becomes irrelevant, especially when there is someone coming at you when he sees that you are distracted by a shiny object floating over your head.

2) It may look harder to elude than MvC (Which I believe just the opposite, especially considering how screen filling they can be), I believe that a person used to facing X FS would find it less of an issue once they had to facing it a few times.

By the way, how do you know whether or not FSs grant invincibility? If they do, I'm on your side in saying that there really should be an opportunity for an opponent to counter.

Also, on the issue of Smash Balls not being a direct reward, would you settle FS being granted by way of a filling meter or a "1 use per match" restriction? Maybe one of these fine folks who will be going to E for All can make that request for us as a possible solution to any fears regarding FS abuse.

3) It's still slow. If your opponent manages to connect perfectly, good for him. He earned his kill.

4) Pit's FS, in my view, is incredibly underpowered. Homing Angels that follow a set path is not really something to be a scared of if you can control your character to avoid it. Peach's FS, however, is up for debate. I personally think that the tradeoff for immunity while sacrificing the ability to attack is decent. Kinda reminds me of Paladins in World of Warcraft. I say cut the move down to 10 seconds and we may be on to something.

As for Super Sonic, tournament fighters will have to become hellishly careful to not overdo it while his/her opponent can control his character just fine. Tournament fighters might not kill themselves but they won't be killing much if they find that their ability to control their character is hampering their ability to deal damage.

5) I feel that's still on wait-and-see status. I can't really make many definitive statements on the state of FSs at the moment and how attempted counters may play into that. I say wait for E for All videos.

By the way, aren't you from the 1up Boards? If so... *wave and salute*

 

[CommanderGrit]

Another unique thing about the smash ball is that getting it just isnt good enough, you have to use it before another Player can steal it from you. If you all have watched the videos you would know that it is possible to "knock" a FS out of someone once they broke the smash ball! A truly skilled player would know what to do in any type of situation.

 

[mkmelee]

i really want the smash ball completely incorporated in the game and cant be turned off

its adds to the gameplay immensely. I say its more part of a character move set then it is an item.

you know how funny that will mess up the "tier" list :D

If you want a regular circulation of 5 different characters in major tournies, then fine.

I don't.

 

[Retroking2000]

Another unique thing about the smash ball is that getting it just isnt good enough, you have to use it before another Player can steal it from you. If you all have watched the videos you would know that it is possible to "knock" a FS out of someone once they broke the smash ball! A truly skilled player would know what to do in any type of situation.

could not have said it better myself ~

 

[Team Giza]

What it all comes down to is this: the Final Smash is an artificial, partially-random way for the game to give a significant advantage to particular player. That player could be behind or ahead, or have been given that advantage 3 times in the match already. There's no way to counter once the move once it's been activated.


To put it bluntly, FS's go one step beyond the invincibility star in terms of tipping the scale:

You can't justify that as balance suitable for a skill based match.

I disagree. From what I heard you can knock the small power out of them which makes it so they would have to use it right away but then sometimes the use is sloppy. Plus its not as bad as the starman because this is out for a long amount of time and gives everyone a chance to react to it. Some people start taking about hitting it a few times and then it randomly going over the other person. Well... don't go after it unless you know that it is safe. You don't have to go after the smash ball, you could keep your opponent away from it... even bait with it. It seems to be more fair game then people give it credit for. But I still don't think a decision can be made until in is tested in a competitive environment. It does leave a lot more room for adaption than you people give in credit for.

 

[Xengri]

A truly skilled player would know what to do in any type of situation.

^ Ultimate Win statement.

Just had to come back to say that.

In Fact it's of so much win, I'll sig it. Cause really, it's not the case of " You suck so you need Luck on your side, Nub sauce.'

It's " If I'm good, I'll adapt to any and everything".

 

[Crispy4001]

I disagree. From what I heard you can knock the small power out of them which makes it so they would have to use it right away but then sometimes the use is sloppy. Plus its not as bad as the starman because this is out for a long amount of time and gives everyone a chance to react to it. Some people start taking about hitting it a few times and then it randomly going over the other person. Well... don't go after it unless you know that it is safe. You don't have to go after the smash ball, you could keep your opponent away from it... even bait with it. It seems to be more fair game then people give it credit for. But I still don't think a decision can be made until in is tested in a competitive environment. It does leave a lot more room for adaption than you people give in credit for.

I don't see how knocking it out makes it any different than an item. You could knock items off of people... and they're still banned from tournaments. What's to stop some of the characters with 'set it and forget it' FS's from pressing B as soon as they get it (looks at Peach)?


Making you work harder for it still doesn't make Final Smashes any less game-breaking on a competitive scale. Hell, Sonic's Final Smash IS a Starman power-up with bonus flight powers.



Master Peach, I believe that takes care of my response to you as well.

 

[Crispy4001]

^ Ultimate Win statement.

Just had to come back to say that.

What would a good player do when they're slept by Peach's final smash?


They'd get it handed to them.

 

[F@lc0-san]

Ok guys >>WHAT IF<<<

The Smash ball CANT be turned off.

I wanna know how you think of this.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

lol no u don't

YOU WANNA GO?!

STAMINA MODE
ALL ITEMS ON
PICHU ONLY
BRINSTAR DEPTHS

That being said, the small amount of luck added rarely, if ever, actually screws over a better player out of a win from my experience.

I don't play with items often, but I'll really hate tourneys if I see the same five guys in there.

 

[WoapGang]

just out of curiosity, which 5 characters are you talking about

 

[Master Peach]

A truly skilled player would know what to do in any type of situation.

Quoted for truth.

In Smash no matter what you say about items it requires skill to use effectively.

Just yesterday I played my friend in FD. We both had one stock. I first turnip gamed him, then I pulled a beam sword. I actually gamed the sword on him. I Naired him, then slashed, then tossed it at him, regrab, he came back to the stage (from the right side), I Naired him again (He dodged. Just what I wanted him to do.), I then tossed it down on him ( He flew to the other side of the stage.), I ran to him Nair again (He spot dodged), I then simple slashed him for a stun, then tossed it. I won the match that way. If that didn't require skill to do the I don't know what does.

Edit: BTW My friend was using Link.

FS will require skill to use and avoid. I really feel this can be used in tourneys.

 

[konoha107]

Ok guys >>WHAT IF<<<

The Smash ball CANT be turned off.

I wanna know how you think of this.

Well, for one thing, I know it would be able to turn off, because Sakurai doesn't want to take that much of a risk, but if we couldn't...I guess we would have to live with it, but it would make the game less than perfect (for SSBB, anyway).

 

[Makkers]

What would a good player do when they're slept by Peach's final smash?


They'd get it handed to them.

How does a Peach user automatically win if her FS is used? It's only mass sleep. Hit the opponent and they'll wake. If anything, it's basically a technique so the player can remain in the game for awhile longer, not one hit kill the opponent (Unless the opponent is in the high percentages, which I say good move, Peach). The healing factor is fair since the items that spawned are randomly placed, which means the Peach player will have to hussle to get them all.

The only thing that needs to be nerfed is the time in which the sleep is in effect. As I stated before, 10 seconds and we're going somewhere.

 

[Crispy4001]

Anybody who registered to this site has a say on the topic since the topic is open for debate.



1.) Despite being uncontested, what purpose would a FS serve if you're already winning/losing? Also, due to the speed of the game as well as the size of the stages, the distance between you and the Smash Ball becomes irrelevant, especially when there is someone coming at you when he sees that you are distracted by a shiny object floating over your head.

2) It may look harder to elude than MvC (Which I believe just the opposite, especially considering how screen filling they can be), I believe that a person used to facing X FS would find it less of an issue once they had to facing it a few times.

By the way, how do you know whether or not FSs grant invincibility? If they do, I'm on your side in saying that there really should be an opportunity for an opponent to counter.

Also, on the issue of Smash Balls not being a direct reward, would you settle FS being granted by way of a filling meter or a "1 use per match" restriction? Maybe one of these fine folks who will be going to E for All can make that request for us as a possible solution to any fears regarding FS abuse.

3) It's still slow. If your opponent manages to connect perfectly, good for him. He earned his kill.

4) Pit's FS, in my view, is incredibly underpowered. Homing Angels that follow a set path is not really something to be a scared of if you can control your character to avoid it. Peach's FS, however, is up for debate. I personally think that the tradeoff for immunity while sacrificing the ability to attack is decent. Kinda reminds me of Paladins in World of Warcraft. I say cut the move down to 10 seconds and we may be on to something.

As for Super Sonic, tournament fighters will have to become hellishly careful to not overdo it while his/her opponent can control his character just fine. Tournament fighters might not kill themselves but they won't be killing much if they find that their ability to control their character is hampering their ability to deal damage.

5) I feel that's still on wait-and-see status. I can't really make many definitive statements on the state of FSs at the moment and how attempted counters may play into that. I say wait for E for All videos.

By the way, aren't you from the 1up Boards? If so... *wave and salute*

Yup, I'm from 1up. Onto smash:


1. To further distance yourself from your opponent stock/percentage-wise. Or to catch back up.

2. True, but for some like Peach's or Pits, there's little you can do to not have it effect you in some way. You're going to at a disadvantage when someone rips one off.

3-4. Even if there's room to question certain characters final smashes as not end-all be-alls, there's still no justification for others. Or even for the invulnerability period. Or even for the advantage scheme itself, which is not fair and balanced for everyone (you could pick up and connect 4 FSs while your opponent gets 0).

 

[NintendoWarrior]

In my opinion leaving the Final Smashes on is the same thing as doing a super in Marvel vs. Capcom tournaments. You have to work to earn both of them anyway.

 

[Dantarion]

Final Smashes are no different than a hammer or heart.

They randomly appear and are a huge help to the player who gets them. It doesn't matter that you hit it as opposed to picking them up, etc.

Btw, NintendoWarrior, would you be happy if in Marvel Vs Capcom, an item appeared randomly on screen that let a player do a super move and there was no other way to do super moves? No.

In marvel vs capcom, everyone has a bunch of supers, and can do them whenever they have a full meter, not whenever a random item decides to appear. Also, all the supers in MvC are almost all blocked by simply pressing back, or jumping over them.

 

[Crispy4001]

FS will require skill to use and avoid. I really feel this can be used in tourneys.

Is it really reasonable to expect anyone to avoid Peach's Final Smash?


Think of it this way, peach is down 100% on her last stock, you're on your last two. She smashes you off the ledge. You go flying off in a star finish. While your death is playing out, a smash ball appears. She breaks it. She gets it. She uses it when you respawn.


You get delt 37%. You sleep. She recovers 60% health back to 40%. In one instant, you've gone from up by one stock and about to win to even playing fields. But wait, then you're hit by her Down-Smash before you wake up. You eventually lose. You're out of the tournament.


Is that really a true test of skill? Or were you just screwed out of your win?

 

[Team Giza]

I don't see how knocking it out makes it any different than an item. You could knock items off of people... and they're still banned from tournaments. What's to stop some of the characters with 'set it and forget it' FS's from pressing B as soon as they get it (looks at Peach)?

Character specifics. Plus you can stop them from getting the ball in the first place. Depending on the character you are fighting against depends on how you react to the smash ball, it gives you more than enough opinions and time to do so. That is also the difference between it and other items. You have all the time in the world to react to it effectively. Just cause it spawns next to a person does not mean they will get it and be able to use it directly, they need to break it which takes multiple hits, you don't want to hit it so the other person will be able to open it so you have to fight them away first. I think it needs to be tested out. It gives more options then you give it credit for.

Making you work harder for it still doesn't make Final Smashes any less game-breaking on a competitive scale. Hell, Sonic's Final Smash IS a Starman power-up with bonus flight powers.

Yeah but Sonic has to get the final Smash first, and that isn't as simple as getting a starman by any means. To get a smash ball you need to go through your opponent... to get a starman you just need to be lucky when it spawns.

The star KO logic is flawed because it takes longer to break a smash ball then a star KO takes.

 

[Paingel]

Tournaments aren't "Real" Smash. They're "Arena" Smash. Arena fights have restrictive rules and real fights don't. Compare it to the difference between IRL Wars and IRL Boxing matches. In War you can have nukes, cruise missiles, knives, swords, guns, and all sorts of things that technically DO require some strategic or tactical skill to use effectively... but in Boxing matches you only have your two gloved fists.

Why? Because games have tight rules, and Boxing is a game while War is not. But since even "Real" Smash is also a game, any argument for "Real" Smash being more important than "Arena" Smash can't really be justified along these lines.

On the other hand, the whole argument against "luck based combat" is kinda negated by the fact that More Initial Stock means that Luck matters less and Skill matters more.

Allow me to demonstrate by giving an example.
Let's say that out of 5 stock, you can lose somewhere between 1-5 stock due to unforseablee "unfair" situations. On average, you lose 2 or 3, on a lucky day you only lose 1 and on an unlucky day you lose all 5.

You're in a 5 stock match and it's an unlucky match for you, but lucky for your opponent. You lose all 5 stock and it's game over. Of course that's not going to seem "fair" to you, right? After all, your skill wasn't accurately reflected in the match. You lost to an opponent who wasn't necessarily better than you.

But then, consider the following match:
You're in a 50 stock match. There's times when you're lucky and times when you're unlucky. But at the end of it all it still averages out to be about 2 stocks out of 5 lost due to "unfair" situations. (which totals up to be about 20 stocks) Also, keep in mind that you're opponent is going to be losing about 20 stocks from similar situations, assuming that you two are about equal skill. So it's still 30 "fair" stock vs. 30 "fair" stock, and overall it's still fair. It's like taking statistics: The bigger your sample the more accurate the data.

But who wants to play 50-stock matches? That's "too long" for our "hardcore" competitive players. Whenever the "gladiators" complain about something it's "unbalanced" while whenever someone else complains they just say "no johns."

But between the desire for having short matches, the desire for indisputable fairness, and the desire for a full and complete game, the third one gets dropped in favor of the other two. It's understandable, but it by no means makes the ones who played the dumbed-down bare-bones version game more "elite" than anybody else, it just means that the ones who win are better at the dumbed-down bare-bones version of the game.

And fine. Let it be that way. I'm not really criticizing it (that much), I'm just pointing it out. Maybe the Boxing Champion isn't as good at "real" fighting as the Battle-hardened War Veteran. Maybe the Vet would wipe the floor with that pampered pretentious wannabe tough-guy. So what? I'd still bet my money that the Boxing Champion could turn around and wipe the floor with some random scrub who has never won a boxing match OR been in any wars.

It's human nature. People are going to play "Arena" Smash in their tournies and "Real" Smash with their friends. "Arena" Smash is set up for fair competitions, and "Real" Smash is set up for fun.

Now, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to suggest that the friendlies before the tournaments can be played with all items and stages, while the items will get turned off and certain stages banned when the tournament actually starts. That would actually be better for the tournament players that want to participate in friendlies because they can just use items instead of revealing their real level of skill before the tourny. Just a thought, and maybe they do this in some tournies already. I don't know. ^^

But.. you can say stuff like...
"If it was down to 1 stock vs. 1 stock then wasn't it a close match anyways?"
"How does performing a Smash attack at the right time require more skill than grabbing and throwing an item at the right time?"
"If you knocked your opponent off the stage, don't you DESERVE all of the items that drop while he tries to get back?"
and
"Don't you realize that when you Air Dodge it takes X frames EACH TIME, and then you're open untl you hit the ground? Mindgames aren't really going to help you out if there's only 2 things you can do and both leave you wide open. And even if they did, who ever said that the Sonic wasn't a better mindgamer than you were?"
...all you like and it won't mean much of anything because the ones who make the rules for the tournaments are going to make Arena-style matches because it makes a lot more sense to do it that way.

....Oh, and before some idiot says "lol u kent compar smash 2 RL!"...
IDIOT! I'm barely talking about Smash at all! This is a post on human nature and how it tends to work, particularly when it comes to competitive matches like tournament smash. Whether or not you can use nukes in Smash or turn SSJ in real life is completely beside the point of the post.

 

[Master Peach]

Is it really reasonable to expect anyone to avoid Peach's Final Smash?


Think of it this way, peach is down 100% on her last stock, you're on your last two. She smashes you off the ledge. You go flying off in a star finish. While your death is playing out, a smash ball appears. She breaks it. She gets it. She uses it when you respawn.


You get delt 37%. You sleep. She recovers 60% health back to 40%. In one instant, you've gone from up by one stock and about to win to even playing fields. But wait, then you're hit by her Down-Smash before you wake up. You eventually lose. You're out of the tournament.


Is that really a true test of skill? Or were you just screwed out of your win?

I would say "good match". He used the final smash to it's full extent.

Plus Another thing it wouldn't be that easy to do that on me because I can use Peach or Pit to float/fly away until the time expired. I wouldn't just stand there and get hit by it. Sure my opponent get to heal himself, but all the more reason to fight back even harder to earn a perfect kill. XD

 

[Dave the Perspicacious]

Heres hoping Mewtwo makes a return!

Mewtwos teleport for Final Smash evasion skills!1one!!

Not that simple eh?

Meh....

Dave

 

[Xengri]

Do I really have to say whats wrong with this example.

Is that really a true test of skill? Or were you just screwed out of your win?

you've gone from up by one stock and about to win to even playing fields. You eventually lose.

Game returned to even playing fields, but you lose? Seems like that was your fault to me...



god what am I posting for, I said i was done ><
That's it, no matter what I'm shutting up now. No more post in this thread.

 

[commonyoshi]

Curse you, Xengri. Even after you agree to dissagree, I will never let you have the last word. Muhuhahaha!

Your counter-arguments were kinda meh, but I am curious as to why you would chose to "deal with it", as you have said, rather than not. Just seems like chosen, sadist reasoning to me. >_<

 

[Crispy4001]

I would say "good match". He used the final smash to it's full extent.

In other words, the game threw him a lucky break. You got lumpy coal. Therefore, you lost.

Sounds like a great approach for a true test of skill.

Plus Another thing it wouldn't be that easy to do that on me because I can use Peach or Pit to float/fly away until the time expired. I wouldn't just stand there and get hit by it. Sure my opponent get to heal himself, but all the more reason to fight back even harder to earn a perfect kill. XD

And yes you're right you can avoid it if you don't touch ground. So in order for you not to get lumpy coal, you have to play as specific characters or get screwed in full. What a wonderful way to balance the game.

 

[Alias]

If you want a regular circulation of 5 different characters in major tournies, then fine.

I don't.

so you're saying some Final Smashes are better than others

i say you just dont know the strategic uses of each final smash and is just jumping into ignorant conclusions


plus, some COULD have definite better final smash to "balance" they're overall character skill tier